Talk:Advent

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A further word on my edit from today
I said that I was going to make that red link on Rorate Mass - which is definitely worth a little article - into a blue one. However, seems I can't. Fine. I'll leave the link because I do think someone else should.--2.236.198.248 (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there enough material to create an article for Rorate Mass? If so, take it to Wikipedia:Articles for creation and link it when it is created. If fixed the edit but may have butchered the prose in doing so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Expectant waiting vs waiting
An anon has objected to both the and the. The term is frequently used in relation to advent. It's also used alone. Please explain the objection in light of that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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Advent-Labyrinth
Why the video of an Advent labyrinth was removed?
 * HK Advents-Labyrinth 14122013 100sec.ogg in the Holy Cross - Centre for Christian Meditation and Spirituality at the Holy Cross Church in Frankfurt am Main-Bornheim ]]

--Urmelbeauftragter 11:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * remvoed it and stated why: . While I disagree with that reason as there's no support that it a new-age or pagan practice, I will say that it's not a common activity during Advent. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:38, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, there were three labyrinths in Frankfurt or in the area around this year made with candles as far as I know. But they were not only in the time of Advent.--Urmelbeauftragter 17:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If it were an authentic Christian tradition then I would have no objection, but the plain facts are that the "labyrinth" is a New Age innovation brought in by dissenters and heretics in order to paganize the Christian religions and remake them into something they are not. The use of a "labyrinth" for Advent is even further from traditional rituals and customs and an altogether foreign innovation that will not stand the test of time, once the aging hippies of the 60s die out and Europe completes her apostasy, leaving empty churches to be converted into mosques and nightclubs. Elizium23 (talk) 21:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Three in Frankfurt? Is it an activity peculiar to Frankfurt am Main? How many in Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Stuttgart, Bonn or Dresden? Is it restricted to Germany? Does Whittenberg have one? (addressing Catholic vs Protestant issues) Other locations through Europe? It's not common where I live which is why I ask. There are 558,000 hist when I do a Google search for the term (without quotes) but only 4,160 when I turn it into a phrase: "Advent Labyrinth". Three of the hits on the first page, of ten links, are from https://labyrinthsociety.org/. I'm not entirely sure this is popular. If a section were written on the topic, with reliable sources not directly linked to the walks (read WP:SECONDARY sources such as newspapers, chapters of books, or something like those) I would consider that the video would be informative, otherwise, it's a distraction and curiosity.
 * Is there any support that labyrinths are exclusively new age? Again, a simple Google search says no. Search for labyrinth in Christian tradition. And http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2001/fall/4.38.html and http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2016/february/is-it-okay-for-christian-to.html Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The Protestant church of Frankfurt also use labyrinth with candles, the Franciscan order uses a Garden labyrinth in their convent near Frankfurt, he most famous labyrinth in a church is the one in Chartres Cathedral. All of them have nothing to do with "New Age" or "Paganism".--Urmelbeauftragter 22:43, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I have provided at least two reliable sources, and my search showed a few more. Would you be able to write a sentence or three describing the activity? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you mean with activity? The course in which the Advent labyrinth is created or the church service in which it is used?--Urmelbeauftragter 22:57, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Add an encyclopedic explanation of the activity. If you can find the history, all the better. If you can't, current practice would be enough. A specific instance would be too narrow of a focus for an encyclopedia. Just make sure that you have reliable, secondary sources to support. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:22, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. As far s I know here is no further or secondary source for it. The Advent labyrinth I know is part of the program of the Centre for Christian Meditation and Spirituality of the Diocese of Limburg. The second source is from a visitor who is consultant (I don't know if this is the right translation for the German word "Referentin") for Girls and women work of the Diocese.--Urmelbeauftragter 08:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you think about this source from 2012: Video about the Advent labyrinth 2012 on YouTube? It's from a reporter of the KNA (Katholische Nachrichtenagentur, =Catholic News Agency).--Urmelbeauftragter 09:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The first linked article is behind a paywall so I can't comment in either direction on it. The second article is an editorial opinion, only usable under WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV as a WP:BIASED source. It also indicates a high degree of resistance to the concept among Christians, and if the author had bothered to do research in depth, would have discovered much more.  You and I may have a disagreement on what precisely constitutes "Christian Tradition" and whether that Tradition should be rooted in something perhaps older than the last 50 years. Elizium23 (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not behind a paywall for me. Your first article is also a blog and your second doesn't state it's new age, and instead supports it going back to at least the middle ages with renewed interest in the 1950s. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The "renewed interest" is altogether discontinous with the usage in the Middle Ages, mostly because it is rather mysterious what exactly the usage actually was back then. Elizium23 (talk) 07:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What does your second source say? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:19, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * For the record,, you might find some information from that second link useful if you are planning on writing a section on it here. It does not tie-in directly with Advent though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:24, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "Labyrinths in medieval cathedrals and churches almost certainly had symbolic meaning, although documentation is scarce to nonexistent. One possibility is that the ancient Greek myth was Christianized, so that the Minotaur represented the devil, and Theseus represented the victorious Christ. Doreen Prydes, a professor of medieval history at the University of Notre Dame, says there is absolutely no evidence of labyrinth walking in the Middle Ages. She believes that Christians of that era saw the labyrinth as a symbol of redemption, not pilgrimage." Elizium23 (talk) 07:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "Artress repeats the claims of some radical feminist theologians that nine million women were burned at the stake as witches during the Middle Ages in a patriarchal attempt to suppress feminine spiritual vitality. "The old religions that embraced the connection to the natural world were destroyed," she laments. "We lost our connection to creation. Trusting the labyrinth is one step towards reclaiming that connection," she concludes.


 * Tragically for Artress and other labyrinth enthusiasts, Yahweh remains a "stumbling block for many seekers." This stern, jealous, male God, who is so "repugnant" to many people, is supposed to have created all of the natural order, "usurping" the role of the "Mother, the creator of life." Artress asserts that too many Christians are afraid to liberate themselves from this tyrannical deity and to trust instead "our inner, objective experience."


 * Artress likes to quote Carl Jung about "archetypes" and Joseph Campbell about "the numinous." She has helped Matthew Fox organize his pantheistic "planetary mass." She also seems to be an adherent of process theology, believing that "God" is constantly unfolding into a new process and new identity, revealed through our own experiences. Like the labyrinth, this "Mother god weaves the web of creation." The labyrinth, like the goddess, is "all-encompassing in its twists and turns, reflecting the presence of the Divine.""


 * This is inimical to Christian doctrine and tradition. This is, bluntly, sugar-coated heresy with a cross painted on top. I suggest you read the entire article for yourself, it is not paywalled and to quote any more here would be both a copyvio and dangerous to my personal sanity. Elizium23 (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Women of Grace is a WP:NEWSBLOG, they have a highly respected media apostolate which broadcasts on EWTN with a reputation for editorial oversight and fact-checking. Elizium23 (talk) 07:42, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry. You lost me when you went to "sugar-coated heresy". That's clearly WP:SYNTH at best and WP:OR at worst. I reread the source you provided and I did not come away with what you are coming away with. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * And for the record, the CT piece that you called a blog is not, it's an opinion piece. Feel free to take that to RSN though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Who called what a blog? This is a talk page - I'm not proposing to insert "sugar-coated heresy" in any article, I'm just explaining the clear conclusion the article is explaining. Elizium23 (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. You called it an editorial piece. It's not sugar-coating heresy. You've really got to stop pushing your POV here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not POV to say that labyrinths are foreign to Christian tradition, and most certainly not an Advent custom outside of a few WP:FRINGE cases. The onus is on the proposer to prove that inclusion is warranted, not on me. Elizium23 (talk) 21:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course it is, particularly when one of the sources you provided alludes to its use in the middle ages. There is no practice in Christian tradition that is not foreign to it. Baptism was a Jewish practice, as was Eucharist. I can't think of any common practice to any branch of the church today that did not start outside of the faith. What makes it Christian is not its origin but how it is practised. Advent itself was a fringe activity at one point and did not gain acceptance until after the schism between Eastern and Western churches. The Advent wreath, prominent at this time of year in almost every Western church was considered pagan and influenced by Druid activity a century ago. Even the colours of the candles vary from region to region, but some editors think that their practice is the only one. So Advent is over, and it would be appropriate to add a section on labyrinth walking to the section currently titled "Folk traditions" and rename it "Regional and fringe practices", or something similar. As long as it's referenced. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The meaning of colours of candles was new for me. I never heard from it in Catholical church. But there were regional differencs. The candles in the Advent wreath are normally red as far as I know and there are no differences between the Sundays of Advent.
 * So you are of the opinion that it would be possible to add a section concerning advent labyrinths?--Urmelbeauftragter 08:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If you don't mind Elizium23 thinking you're an apostate, heretic or worse, sure. As long as you have good sources there's not much that he can do to refute it. It's clearly not a prominent activity at Advent, so don't frame it as such. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I will try it.--Urmelbeauftragter 15:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm not a fan of this attempt to spam WP:FRINGE stuff into every tangentially related article. It's been reverted on Labyrinth and there is no consensus for inclusion here, either. Elizium23 (talk) 18:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Why you have removed the Christian use of candle labyrinths from the article Labyrinth. Why you don't remove pagan symbols like Christmas trees or Advent wreaths from Christian articles because they were Pagan origin? ;-) And moreover the Christian cross itself has a Pagan origin. First it was a Roman execution tool from a time the Romans were no Christians.--Urmelbeauftragter 22:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

The reason given was clear: a five-year old tradition did not belong in a folk traditions section. I restored it, made a copy edit and changed the heading. It would be better to have a general overview rather than a single incident, but I will have to hold off for a while on making that change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * My question concerned the change in the article Labyrinth where the section concerning Christian use of candle labyrinths was removed by Elizum23 and replaced by arguments why labyrinths are Pagan origin and no Christian symbols.--Urmelbeauftragter 23:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This is not about the origin of a practice but rather the actual doctrine and usage of the practice as it stands today. The other things you mention have been absorbed into Christianity and given Christian symbolism and meaning, divorcing them from their previous religion. Labyrinths, on the other hand, have been embraced by New Age pagans and used to push the envelope of Christian doctrine beyond its breaking point and into Bizarro World. What I would appreciate would be reliable secondary sources (unlike the ones which had been provided) demonstrating this practice as an authentic tradition and what kind of Christian doctrine it represents. Walter Gorlitz has restored the section by changing its stated topic, to which I strenuously object: These kind of articles describe time-honored traditions, not 5-year-old fads. Furthermore, as I have already mentioned, and is evidenced clearly by User talk:Urmelbeauftragter: this editor is trying to wedge his preferred subjects into every single article he possibly can, even those that bear only a tangential relation to the central topic (like a Cathedral in Ethiopia for a program being run in the eparchy? Every single article about text included in his favorite oratorio?) and this is running afoul of WP:PROMOTION and WP:SPAM. The editor has denied a WP:COI but we have to consider if the activity is all the same regardless of his connection or lack thereof. Elizium23 (talk) 02:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I have posted to WP:DRN in order to invite outside discussion and evaluation of this dispute. Elizium23 (talk) 02:09, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I posted my statement there--Urmelbeauftragter 13:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
 * And what happens now with it? The dispute ist still open as far as I can see.--Urmelbeauftragter 09:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * We wait. The article will receive fewer readers for the next ten months so we can make the change when the dispute is closed or Elizium23 adds the video back.
 * While we wait, you could try to make the section a bit more general and find a few more sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Dates
Do we really need the section at all? Right now, it starts giving as the dates for 2015. Relevance?? - If we keep it, can we at least put the next year first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * When it wasn't in the infobox, it was needed. Now that it is, it's probably not useful. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I was bold and removed it at the bottom. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:28, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

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Language and date don't align
I notice that the date format is day Month year, which is common in Britain and commonwealth nations, not the United States, but the spelling favours American English (notice "color" and others). I propose to harmonize the two by changing the spelling to international English, unless someone objects. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No comments. I will make the change to make the language international English. Feel free to discuss a change here if needed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology section needed
No explanation about the etymology here. Advent, from old French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 11:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It's . Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * that were a word in Old French, and attested before. Search it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I did. The link is present. It's Latin. Every year that is confirmed in multiple sermons. If it's old French as well, it came via Latin. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:48, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Seven-Sunday Advent
In addition to the four-Sunday Advent common in the Westrrn churches, the 6-Sunday Advent of some oldr rites (e.g. Mozarabic), and the 40-day Nativity Fast or Lesser Lent common in Eastern churches, there is also an ancient 7-Sunday Advent that is gaining renewed popularity in some (particularly Anglican/Episcopalian) circles. When I have a functional computer at my disposal instead of just this dumb smartphone, I'll work it in if no one beats me to the punch. --Haruo (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Introduction and structure
Sorry, I regard the recent change of the structure of the introduction as rather unfortunate. In any case, this sentence: "Advent begins on either the fourth or sixth Sunday before Christmas and ends on Christmas Eve." A a reader who is not already familiar with the difffent rites can not have an idea from what this Sunday-thing depends. Could you even choose? (Of course, the answer is no.)

The most recent change of the structure splits information which belongs together. If there is no objection, I'd rather return to the previous introduction. For now I removed the sentence in question, there are too many ifs and buts. (for example "on Christmas Eve" is not entirely correct, at least in the Roman rite it is "before the first Vespers of Christmas", whereas at least the morning belongs to Advent)--Medusahead (talk) 10:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Secular terms
The Christmas and holiday season article is about secular phenomena related to Christmas, and Advent is not "celebrated" or "observed" by the secular world except as a pseudo-Christmas. While it is nice to inform them about the wider festivities in the world, readers here should not be confused about the character of Advent as a liturgical season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elizium23 (talk • contribs) 20:56, February 7, 2021 (UTC)
 * Advent is Christian in nature and is the season before Christmas. Inserting secular in here is not necessary. --evrik (talk) 02:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , introducing "Christmas and holiday season" uncritically without explaining that it is a secular season, muddies the waters. Elizium23 (talk) 02:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're talking about as you are the one who introduced the term secular where it really is superfluous. Also, your post here Wikipedia:Requests for page protection was pretty silly. --evrik (talk) 05:23, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , it was who introduced the phrase, and while I feel it is correct to include this, it is prone to misinterpretation without being qualified as I did. Elizium23 (talk) 05:41, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The word secular is not appropriate in that sentence. It is unnecessary. You added that. --evrik (talk) 06:23, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * We can take out the whole sentence and go back to the status quo; I would accept that as a compromise. Elizium23 (talk) 06:25, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The addition of placing "in the the wider Christmas and holiday season" is correct and I'm not sure what "in secular term" means in relation to the phrase that follows.
 * Most non-liturgical churches in the western tradition have created a combined season. Walk into a Baptist church on Advent 1 and they will likely have an advent wreath at the front of the sanctuary, a Christmas tree nearby, and other Christmas decorations adorning the building. For these churches, advent is the start of the Christmas season. No secular sense at all. In other churches I have attended here in Canada where Thanksgiving is not a conflicting celebration, the Christmas decorations are set-up earlier and the advent wreath joins four Sundays before Christmas day. Walter Görlitz (talk)
 * You make a good suggestion, Walter. Let us preface the statement instead with "Outside of the liturgical Christian churches, ..." Elizium23 (talk) 07:49, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Even in the Lutheran, Presbyterian and Anglican churches I attended there was a blending of the seasons. It is simply most prominent in non-liturgical congregations as they have no liturgical calendar to observe. Walter Görlitz (talk) 09:02, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , okay, so in several large liturgical churches, Advent is not part of the Christmas season, Christmas is not being celebrated until the night of Christmas eve, and if you ask a priest if it is Christmas, they will tell you to wait until Christmas Season begins on Christmas Day. So I think there is a disconnect here with a blanket claim that Advent is part of Christmas. Elizium23 (talk) 09:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * it may not have been, but it functionally is today. I think you have a disconnect between your experience and reality. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

First line of Advent page wrong
The first line of the Advent page says, "Advent is a season of the liturgical year observed in most Christian denominations", this is wrong, it is observed in SOMEItalic text Christian denominations. I know people in most if not all Protestant denominations, and have sat in those churches, I have never heard of a Protestant denomination that observed Advent. That is not to say Protestants in other parts of the country don't, just that none in this region do. When that sentence says liturgical, the only place I have heard that term is in some of the Catholic offshoot denominations. But I have never been to a Catholic church so I don't know if they use it or not.

Personal Experience Who needs a book when you basically live in churches or at least spend more time there than at home.

2600:1700:4D81:4030:90D7:44E0:13C:B44B (talk) 02:19, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

After reading more of the "Edits", I have two things to say, first of all the term ""Mother god weaves the web of creation." " I pure heresy. to half the Christians in the world. God is male, there is only one God, therefore there is no goddess, or Mother god.

Also throughout this article, it refers to "all Christians", when it should say "Catholics", because there is a big difference between Catholics and Protestants. My original correction was just to clear up a misunderstanding so that non-Christians did not get the wrong idea. This correction however, I really want to leave scripture to prove my point, but I won't, I'm leaving firsts.

Also, Henry Ford put headlights on his car before Chevrolet even started making cars, does that mean that Chevrolet, can't use or talk about headlights, no, and it doesn't matter where the candle labyrinth started, whoever used it can say they used it and why, some people need to get a life, and stop trying to keep other people from enjoying stuff. I have no idea what a candle labyrinth is, so I have no guess if it can even be Christian, or if it's pagan beginnings (if that's the case) prevent the church from using it. Except the Bible says 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. In other words, anything used by any false religion should not be used in Christianity, especially if it's use was particularly bad, or if the average non-Christian sees it and thinks the church is trying to be the false religion. If whatever it is can not pass the 1 Thess. 5:22 test, do you really want your church doing it? If it does pass the test, then do it. But if the pagans which are led by satan are fighting to keep it, you probably want to let them have it. If it's not of God, it's of satan, so yes the pagans are satanic, even though they don't realize that is who they are worshipping, because it's not God, there's only one other option.

```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4D81:4030:90D7:44E0:13C:B44B (talk) 02:55, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Liturgical Colors
Though blue being part of the Sarum Use is often cited, that has been contested, I think convincingly, for example, here: https://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/11/25/sarum-blue-the-great-untruth/ I'm wondering if anyone has citations with evidence for Sarum Blue, or if the controversy should be noted. Doublemodal (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Date of Hispano-Mozarabic and Ambrosian "First Sunday of Advent"
Under "Dates", the following text on some "non-Roman" rites is given:

In the Ambrosian Rite and the Mozarabic Rite of the Catholic Church, Advent begins on the sixth Sunday before Christmas, the Sunday after St. Martin's Day (11 November).

However, these two qualifications do not fit with each other. This year, 2023 C.E., "the sixth Sunday before Christmas" would give Sunday, 19 November as their "First Sunday in Advent", but "the Sunday after St. Martin's Day (11 November)" would give Sunday, 12 November instead. This "problem" will occur any year when 11 November is a Saturday. If someone does know how this (apparent?) contradiction can be resolved, please make the appropriate changes to the text. /Erik Ljungstrand (Sweden) 130.241.158.202 (talk) 10:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)