Talk:Afon Rheidol

Requested move 21 August 2019

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move at this time, after much-extended time for discussion. bd2412 T 02:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Afon Rheidol → River Rheidol – To use name potentially more familiar to English-speakers as per WP:COMMONNAME and Naming conventions (geographic names) Tk420 (talk) 19:59, 21 August 2019 (UTC) Although I have seen the river referred to as the Afon Rheidol in Ordnance Survey maps and some news sources I have seen it referred to as the 'River Rheidol' in other news sources and in a souvenir guidebook remembering 'Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)' according to WP:COMMONNAME. On the Google test I get about 84,400 results for 'River Rheidol vs about 24,300 results for 'Afon Rheidol' although this should be taken with a pinch of salt. As for the news sources the BBC, the Cambrian News, and North Wales Live use the 'River' prefix. As for the physical book I found it in the Great Little Trains of Wales, of which the Vale of Rheidol Railway is a member, souvenir guidebook which can be obtained from the railways' gift shops and on Ebay. Tk420 (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:54, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose not doing any harm is it? In ictu oculi (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose as a saesnig who has lived in Wales for an eternity, I was unaware it was ever called "River Rheidol" . Good old BBC, we can rely on to get it just wrong, but the Cambrian News!!? I think the Ordnance Survey must count as the pre-eminent RS and I am happy to go with that.  Velella  Velella Talk 21:15, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * In the recent move discussions on Talk:Aberdyfi, Talk:River Dyfi and Talk:Dyfi Bridge the use of the current article titles by the news sources such as the BBC were cited as reasons to keep or move those articles remembering that the media is very influential. As for the use in OS maps, which might be to avoid the need for bilingualism for rivers spelled the same in both English and Welsh, it is worth remembering this is the same source which continues to use bilingual names for Aberdyfi and the River Dyfi despite the use of only the Welsh spelling by sources such as the BBC. I have since discovered the the 'River' prefix is also used by VisitWales which is the official tourism agency for Wales. According to WikiProject UK geography/How to write about rivers "River X" is used generally for notable rivers in the UK and Ireland, yet many other watercourses are, quite properly, locally and cartographically named "X Beck", "X Water", "X Race" e.g.Trout Beck in the Lake District. However, there is currently no guideline on whether to use 'River' of 'Afon' in an article about a river in Wales. Tk420 (talk) 21:15, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose RGCorris (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, now the 'elephant in the room' has been raised for discussion. This page was moved quietly without any discussion in 2013. Rheidol is the name of the river, 'Afon' is the Welsh word for 'River'. This is the English language Wikipedia after all, in contrast to Wicipedia Cymraeg which uses the suffix 'Afon' for English rivers such as Afon Medway and Afon Trent. Welsh Wikipedians will be justly proud of the Welsh language but there's no need to over-translate into Welsh. Welsh is an official UK language so it's not unsurprising Ordance Survey uses Welsh in Wales. Sionk (talk) 18:40, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I would also like to point out that although Google Trends claims there are searches for 'Afon Rheidol' than for 'River Rheidol' it does not say by which language groups. Some of those searches may be by Welsh-speakers but it might also be an impact of its use on Wikipedia (when I search for a topic on Google I see a link to its Wikipedia article at the top and in an infobox on the right). The article for the Ystwyth, which also has its estuary in Aberystwyth, uses the title 'River Ystwyth' and there are more searches for it with the 'River' prefix than for 'Afon'. I have also noticed there has been an increase in searches for 'River Dyfi', over 'River Dovey' according to Google Trends, since that article was moved. Tk420 (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2019 (UTC) (since edited)


 * Support. Seems a fairly obvious case of WP:UE, and if the hits are greater for the "River" version then that's all the more reason to use it. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 22:16, 29 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New photo
"Looking upstream from just where the Afon Ystwyth joins the Rheidol and then enters the sea. On the left is Pendinas Hill and on the right is Tanybwlch Beach" - this description suggests the photo shows the Rheidol, whereas I believe it shows the Ystwyth. Could the wording be amended to make it clearer? RGCorris (talk) 11:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC) ''Viewed from the confluence of the Rheidol with Afon Ystwyth just before their combined estuary. On the left is Pendinas Hill and on the right is Tanybwlch Beach.''? Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 11:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC) Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 11:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank for this. How about it now:
 * I would suggest The Afon Ystwyth looking upstream from its confluence with the Rheidol just before their combined estuary. On the left is Pendinas Hill and on the right is Tanybwlch Beach. RGCorris (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Please excuse the lateness in my reply but I have been preoccupied outside Wikipedia, my removal of the image is based on it depicting the wrong watercourse as I am sure this article is about the Rheidol and not the Ystwyth. Although it is described as being taken from the Rheidol there is no sign of it in the image. I did add it to the River Ystwyth article thinking it would be better placed there and it was still there when I last checked. Tk420 (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank for your reply. Cheers!

Estuary ?
According to the Wikipedia definition - "An estuary is a partially enclosed coastal body of brackish water with one or more rivers or streams flowing into it, and with a free connection to the open sea." Does the mouth of the Rheidol/Ystwyth really qualify as an estuary ? RGCorris (talk) 10:42, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * It precisely meets that definition. The Ystwyth turns NNW to join the Rheidol which is flowing SSW before they both meet, almost head-on, to flow to the sea through man made harbour walls. I have been out on a Zodiac type boat sampling these waters during a force 10 storm to determine the degree of mixing of the two rivers. The answer is that they mix to a surprising degree, even in better weather conditions, and flow to the sea through the harbour entrance as a combined estuarial flow.  Velella  Velella Talk 13:03, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * An interesting amalgamation of man and rivers successfully operating together. Thanks for the explanation. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 14:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)