Talk:African Americans/Archive 12

White African American
I believe that the term African American is a tremendous dismeanor. Are Charlize Theron and Teresa Heinz Kerry both African Americans blacks? (one was born in South Africa and the other in Mozambique) I am proud of being BLACK AMERICAN, and I don't feel any links with Africa. (anonymously added 29 March 2005)
 * Please see the extensive discussion of just this matter on this page. I assume by "dismeanor" you mean "misnomer".
 * The short of the matter is, Wikipedia does not create common English-language usage, we simply describe it. Yes, as with many words (anti-semitism would be another example), the meaning is not exactly what might be suggested by the etymology. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:17, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

South African whites in America
Why was the section on white South Africans currently living in America excised?? I have known some of these people, and they personally take offense at Americans (and yes, Americans are not the only people in the world) use of the term, because (understandably) they see no reason why the term should not apply to them. After all, they are African and they are American. Moreover, they find it very strange and peculiar that most Americans don't understand their argument. Another thing, why was the section next to it moved, about Africans themselves? Here is what is missing from this article &mdash; any indication that the term "African American" as it is used in America is an American-specific terminology, and that the vast majority of the rest of the world does not recognise the commonly accepted usage as used in America. This is the English Wikipedia, not the American Wikipedia. This section, by excising anything that doesn't subscribe to a particular conventional American wisdom, is highly POV and biased. I'm not asking that the conventional wisdom be excised, but certain people (I won't say who) need to recognise that African American is a contested term, and that this is true no matter how many people would like to think that their usage of the term constitutes the only accepted usage. Statements such as "African American and black American are often used interchangeably, although incorrectly" is a perfect example of this. This may be the case, but such a statement assumes there is a universally accepted "correct" usage of each term, which is not the case. I'm moving the NPOV header to the top of the article, because it seems not just to be this particular section that has a problem. Also, the Emancipation Proclamation did not legally free the slaves, if I remember correctly. Revolver 21:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Deecee, I wish you stop acting as if you speak for all blacks/African Americans. You tend to use the term "we" a lot. I know many blacks/African Americans who primarily refer to themselves as "black" and rarely use the term "African American". According to you, they do not know their own ignorance of themselves, and they are bigoted and prejudiced against themselves, rather than simply choosing to identify by a different term than you. You may not like that many African Americans identify themselves as "black", but you can't erase this fact. Revolver 22:02, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Revolver, contrary to your ridiculous assumptions, I am not the sole author of this article; quite the contrary. (Have you read any of it?) I am removing the NPOV caveat. Your specific concerns have been addressed, explained and resolved in the discussion. No credible authority classifies white South Africans as African Americans. If anything, that specious and intentionally argumentative contention is POV. deeceevoice 23:17, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

White South Africans are not African American, just as black South Africans are not African American. Likewise, Nigerians, Ethiopians, Egyptians, etc. are not African American. All these people mentioned go by their nationality, not the continent of Africa. Black Americans are considered African American because that is as far back as they can trace their lineage, to the continent of Africa, thus African American. White South Africans, if anything, are South African American, but probably opt to just say they are South African. They are not African American. I consider such debates useless because it fails to understand the term African American in the first place. In addition, it approaches Africa as a country, it is a continent. InnerCityBlues 07:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Other relevant passages
This topic has come up several other times, directly and indirectly. The following is an archive of some other relevant passages from broader discussions. If anyone thinks I missed anything germane, or added a quotation of theirs which is not, feel free to correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:14, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

...Non-black "Africans," like Teresa Heinz Kerry, do not qualify as African-Americans in any case. They can be Mozambiquan-American, South African-American, even Portuguese-American, but most certainly NOT African-American. Like all other immigrants to this nation, they can be identified by their countries of origin... User:Deeceevoice:deeceevoice 16:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

...The business about white South Africans is absurd on its face. What issues remain outstanding? deeceevoice 01:02, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * ...What are African citizens living in or naturalized in US properly called if not ‘African American’ and who says?... Quill 07:47, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...Well, regardless of what you think [echoes of the exchange with the no-name guy below who wants to classify white South Africans as African Americans], I've got to advise a reality check... deeceevoice 23:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...And then there is, of course, the fact that "African American" doesn't apply to a large portion of African Americans - those of Arab descent from northern Africa, and those of European descent from the southern countries, South Africa in particular. (Is Charlize Theron the second African American woman to win the best actress oscar? If not, why? What makes her, born in Africa, less African from Halle Berry, who is many generations removed from her African heritage, AND THEN only on one side of her family?)

I am shocked that there is no mention of this intellectual divide in this article. I'd add it myself, except I don't know how best to express it. Maybe we can chat about it. --Golbez 21:38, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

...Etymology is not necessarily definition. Just like "anti-semitism" means being opposed to Jews, not to Semites, "African American" is a social construct and does not simply mean that a person happens to be of African descent and live in America. It would be odd to call Charlize Theron "African American"; it is unlikely that someone would do so other than polemically... Jmabel | Talk 07:05, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Another related discussion
This was another related discussion, originally posted under the section title "West Africa"

The article states that African Americans have dominant ancestry from West Africa. However, I would imagine that if black Africans from e.g. Kenya or Angola came to America and had children, the children would be considered African American despite the fact that they had no ancestry from West Africa. Am I missing something, or is "African American" actually reserved for descendants of West Africans? - Sekicho 03:14, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

We've had this discussion ad nauseam. See paragraph two of the article and then "A Commonsense Explanation of the Term" in the discussion thread. The rewrite doesn't mention all that, but "African-American" is meant to describe a very specific ethnic group in the U.S. Does that answer your question? Perhaps some of the old verbiage that was expunged from the article explaining this should be reinstated?deeceevoice 08:01, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Okay, I had to poke through this mess for a few minutes to find that thread. Still, this goes against both the official usage of the word, e.g. the Census definition, and established definitions of the word such as American Heritage Dictionary's. While I respect your contention that the term should be limited, it's still POV to ignore the common usage and misusage of the word in favor of what you THINK is the proper definition. Politics should not enter this article unless they're being viewed from a distance. - Sekicho 13:43, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * Also, African-American is not a "very specific ethnic group" in any case. It's a broad ethnic group at best; I would call it a cultural entity more than anything else. - Sekicho 14:03, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the discussion IS a mess. But the subhead is there and the pertinent passages should be easily accessible. If you read the excised section carefully, it does mention that other such groups often are referred to as "African American," but that the term is more an external one. The purpose of this article is to discuss the group of African descendants in the U.S. (not elsewhere, not Canada, not Jamaica, etc.). As I suggested in my response to you, perhaps some of the earlier verbiage regarding other groups should be included -- or revised. I directed you to that section to catch you up on the discussion. Of course, you're more than welcome to make a passing mention of other groups you think should be included and include a redirect to links dealing with those populations. And, yes, African-Americans are a very specific ethnic group, with a specific culture, a specific history, even a specific dialect -- whether you -- an exchange student from Osaka, Japan (lol) -- wish to call us that or not. deeceevoice 14:27, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

'This discussion, archived in full at Talk:African_American/Archive_3, then went off to other matters. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:48, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)'

HEY UMM DESCENDANTS OF NOTH AFRICA BORN IN AMERICA ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN, &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.160.69.123 (talk &bull; contribs) 17 Oct 2005. Added long after this was archived.

Since the cradle of civilization was located in Africa-all people who live in America can be accurately named "African Americans." This includes Black, White, Red, and Yellow. From Africa came thre distinct races. They were specifically Negroid, Caucasean, and Mongoloid. There are no other races except those mixed races that have inter-bred. The term African American was termed by Negroid races that were ashamed of their color or race. It is rediculous to use the term African American in this day and age, as most of the Negroid population was born in places other than America. (User: DoubtingTom)(USA) Apr. 11, 2006