Talk:African Americans/Archive 14

lead
Note: Since all humans originate from Africa, technically all Americans (from Chili to Canada) are "African American". The term is by far the most (easily) disputed of all modernist ethnical designations. Furthermore, since for example Jamaica, Brasil and Columbia are also in America it would be strange to keep refering to the black inhabitants of the continent(s) as a minority. This article seems to have less to do with a science based article as with some editors' own complexes. Perhaps a single article on all the different labels Black United States Civillians (<-hey, another!) have had (and given themselves) over the centuries may be better? I mean: who knows what they'd like to be called in another decade? Ender mBind - 18 june 2008


 * I disagree. The way you are using the word "American" is clearly not the same meaning as is being used here. Also I believe your assertion that "since all humans originate from Africa" means that the term "African" cannot be used to describe a particular human phenotype, is erroneous. Roger (talk) 11:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The way "American" is used here is exactly what I dispute. Furthermore, Africa is full of different "human phenotypes" (more then any other continent) - which makes your comment have even less basis. Ender mBind - 18 july 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.64.20.51 (talk) 13:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

People need to watch this page. Nothing about Hispanics should be in the lead. This article is about AFRICAN AMERICANS..Period. African Americans are still the largest racial minority as opposed to hispanics who are the largest ethnic minority. If hispanics want to let it be known thier the largest ethnic minority it should be done on thier wiki page, not the African American page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 01:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no rule saying Hispanics can't be mentioned in this article. It is notable that Hispanics have eclipsed African-Americans as the largest minority group (albeit ethnic). I've reworded the passage to distinquish between ethnic and racial. OhNo itsJamie Talk 01:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I summarized the article in the lead. The lead could use some more information. Leads should be able to stand alone as concise summaries of their articles. (See WP:LEAD.) Misinformed editors sometimes delete additions to the lead because they're "redundant," but the lead actually should touch on the points covered in the article. So next time you see a lead that doesn't summarize the article, please build it up. Leadwind (talk) 01:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The page on the definition of African American can be greatly improved by adding a few major details about the people in the United States who are termed African American. These people as a group are descendents of the original natives of America, Africans, Europeans and in some cases Asians, to put it broadly. Adding this information will give a more truthful, accurate definition of the these people who range in physical appearance from having very fair skin with blonde hair and blue eyes, to a very dark brown complexion with kinkier hair and darker eyes. Most families under this term have members that vary in physical appearance from one extreme to the other and every look in between. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.124.126 (talk) 21:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC) The Honorable Marcus M. Garvey was convenietly omitted from the list of great americans, though his accomplishments and leadership far surpassed the records of any of those "chosen". His UNIA claimed a membership in excess of 6 million members of the Negro race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.245.224 (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Oprah picture
I'm not sure what a better alternative would be, but Oprah (currently the only picture in the income section) is pretty unrepresentative of typical African Americans' income situtation. Where much of the African American community is struggling with issues of poverty etc. the picture of Oprah gives the impression that most blacks wear fancy suits and carry designer handbags. 71.233.79.11 (talk) 13:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The image of Oprah is in the article because she is the richest African American. I don't believe an image of a black person in poverty belongs in this article. That would after all, just be feeding into an old stereotype. Not to say there isn't black poverty, but we shouldn't promote that stereotype.  Yahel  Guhan  23:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

African-American or African American?
I've noticed an inconsistency among other articles that use the term and I think it needs to be clarified in this article. Anybody have thoughts? --Jophus00 (talk) 22:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a broader hyphenated American issue. Since hyphens are often used indifferently one way or the other, and they've been considered offensive by at least a few people (especially in the organized Japanese American community), our Wikipedia standard is just to drop them.--Pharos (talk) 04:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Tiger Woods is not African American
Therefore, he should be removed from the list of most influential Americans who are African American near the end of the article.

Regardless of how the Discovery Channel might have identified him, Tiger Woods has said that he does not consider himself African American. And that should be respected.

Since racial identity is primarily a social construct, how one self-identifies racially should not be contradicted by others who would like to judge by phenotype. Many people that call themselves "African American," as the article states, have up to three different racial groups represented in their ancestry. Consequently, many people who consider themselves African American can be very "light-skinned" (so light brown as to be nearly yellow in tone) or very close to white. And these people are African American because they say they are African American not (directly) because of the one drop rule.

Tiger Woods shouldn't be forced to be African American based on the one drop rule either and/or his phenotype either. Tiger Woods isn't African American because he says he isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TafkaInvisible (talk • contribs) 16:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So, a person born and raised in China who's parents are Chinese and ancestry is Chinese would not be Chinese simply because they say they are not? Please example. Dumaka (talk) 02:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that? African Americanism is a matter of race. People are African Americans because they were born into it, not because they choose to be so.  Yahel  Guhan  16:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Tiger Woods is of one-quarter African American ancestry. Apparently, he prefers not to be described as just "African American" .  But, he supports multiple identities .  BTW, I'm not sure why the Discovery Channel would be the ultimate arbiter on African American greatness anyway.--Pharos (talk) 17:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a good question. Do you know of a better example of what would be a better arbiter of African American greatness?  Yahel  Guhan  17:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha! You just inspired me to create 100 Greatest African Americans.  I guess that's a more scholarly list, and one that's more on-topic (it's not ranked, however).  Still, I don't really think we should be using any "official" list.  Instead, I think in an article like this we should just mention "great" people as they happen to fit into the narrative (and we already have a collage of some of the "great" people in the African American ethnicity infobox anyway).--Pharos (talk) 19:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You might want to add a link to the source of this list.  Yahel  Guhan  23:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The source is the book itself, as I've now explained on its talk page. Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 18:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Along the lines of this talk-page conversation, here's an interesting article on this subject of Tiger Woods being labeled black when he is "mathamatically" more Asian. http://www.tigertales.com/tiger/multi042197.html Kman543210 (talk) 03:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Is Barak Obama "African American"?
Obama is not a "African American" (the term is considered derogatory by many of my race, the Black race. Obama is half white so unless the Black race is a race the serves to purify all other races he is not BLACK, but either MIXED or white. He was raised by whites, and even passed as one in his earlier days in Hawaii. Obama should be consider mixed or white.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.156.25.101 (talk) 17:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

He is half White and I have never seen any source call him "African American" or "Black" so why is he listed here as "African American"?


 * I shouldn't even be wasting my time explaining this to you but anyone who has ancestory from Africa in America is considered African American. Not to mention that Obama's father is African.Dumaka (talk) 01:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * By that same logic, anyone who has ancestry from Europe can be European American, so he is European American as well? It's not wasting your time, it was a legitimate question since the majority of the U.S. considers him biracial. Kman543210 (talk) 12:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The guy is African-American. Years ago during Jim Crow and slavery he would have been considered black and would have had to go to the "colored" restroom. Almost every black person in America has at least some European blood running through them. If we were to take it into that context then there would be no African-Americans. There would only be Biracial-Americans. Who is to say what the dominate gene is when it comes to race? If a person can trace their ancestory to Africa in the U.S. then they are considered African-American. It does not matter how many other races they may be mixed with.  His father was African his mother was American, so he is African-American. Dumaka (talk) 23:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Years ago during Jim Crow and slavery he would have been considered black and would have had to go to the "colored" restroom.  Good thing we've moved past those days...or have we? I agree that he is considered black because of the predominant features and the fact that his father is African. You can still be biracial and African-American though. Not all biracial children have the same predominant features. My nephews' father is white and mother is black (from the Caribean), but they do not identify as "African American". Most people know they are "mixed" right away, and they had more problems in a predominantly black school in Louisiana then a predominantly white school in Oregon. My point is that I agree with you on Obama as he self-identifies as that, but I do not believe it to be as clear cut as some people state. Kman543210 (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. I agree. Dumaka (talk) 19:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

yes he doesn't look like he is mixed race but he is mariah Carey is like Obama she's half black half white would you call her white american just because she "looks like it" its false information to call him an afican american Nicole Riche is also part black would you call her afican amercian... no if someone has parents of different races they are mixed you shouldn't just say they are afican american just because they look more like it, it's 'inorrance' on there heitage he's mixed race and it should be said he proably only says afican american because its easier and better on votes with afican amercian people (say what you like but his race is very helpful to his compain and everyone knows it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veggiegirl (talk • contribs) 20:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion is a bit odd for an encyclopedia but since it is that, it's necessary to point out that Obama himself doesn't go by any one term, and the "soource" listed in this quote (Obama ... and is generally considered to be African American.[65]) is biased and should be removed. One source, even if it is the US Senate website, does not constitute "generally considered" when he himself doesn't use one term over the other, as cited within the same sentence.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilhelmp (talk • contribs) 02:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As an African African, I take exception to this question. Barack Obama may be half-white, but he has one generation of separation from Kenya, and has actually been there. It seems to most of us that most black Americans do not know where Africa is, can name at most a couple of African countries, and think we all speak the same language (Africunn, y'all). They may technically have descent from West Africans but only in the same sense that whites all come from Central Asia. What link is there (besides a dubious link between rap and African rhythm) between, say, 'urban' 'yo' culture and that of the Mande, Wolof, Ful...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew schaug (talk • contribs) 22:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms of the Term African American
This entire section seems to be supported solely by weasel words, especially the opening line: "To be African American, some argue that an individual would have to be born in Africa." I'm aware there is issue with the term in that sense among lay people on the internet, but unless there's actual academic debate over the label, I don't think that that needs to be reflected in an encyclopedia entry. I deleted the section in light of its lack of references to support it (the only cite in the paragraph was to an article describing an incident that amounts to a "fun fact" where the term was misappropriated). As it stands, African-American is the most official term to describe Americans of African descent, whether or not that pleases those uncomfortable with its etymology. Snackmagic (talk) 19:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC) /


 * There needs to be some balance in this section. The way the section reads now, it would appear there is no debate over the term being applied to all black Americans, yet there is debate.  See http://www.cm-life.com/news/2007/02/12/Voices/Diversity.Objections.Without.Merit-2711839.shtml for a very recent example.  The editor in chief of that college paper claims that the AP style guide uses "black" rather than "African American" for exactly the same reasons that there is a controversy at all - just because you see someone with black skin doesn't give you any reason to think that person is either "African" or "American" (who is to say that the person's family hasn't been in the US for many generations, or more to the point, that the person isn't from England or any other country).  I certainly object to the phrase "European American" being used here in exchange for "white", as there most definitely is no large support for such region-based terms (unless the person is a first or second-generation American from that region).  Please unlock this section to allow the edits to correct the biases and add a note that there is more controversy on the term than is stated here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilhelmp (talk • contribs) 02:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Further more, African-American is hyphenated implying that the race is of sub-importance. Black is much more excepted by blacks. I use it to describe my self and correct anyone who uses the African-American term.

What is African American?
There should be something in this section about the racial status of Tiger Woods, and White Africans. Rds865 (talk) 19:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

One cannot help feeling that the protected status of the article may have as much to do with this issue as with anti-black racists wanting to spew hate speech. As a white African, I personally agree fully with the idea of black Africans being called 'African American', but find it hard to swallow that whites and Arabs, etc., born in Africa and now residents of the United States, should be considered otherwise. There was an incident a few years ago when a white African American entered a competition for 'African Americans only', in itself a feature of a two-way racist society. He was banned and told he was 'as bad as any Nazi'. He was 16, and unlike the 'ethnically clean' politically correct personage of some gender who won the competition, he had actually been to Africa - he had been born there, as a member of people - the white Africans - who number millions, and are as valid as any other group. Of course, he was racist not because he considered others inferior on the grounds of race, but because he was white. Statistics show that most black Africans cannot name a single country in Africa, or a single African language, black or otherwise. This is not due to any racial feature - America as a country is world-famous for its lack of knowledge about the rest of the world, but this fact does highlight a certain unfairness in the term. Some other races, like the Berbers, are also African and indeed have always lived only in Africa for thousands of years. The Malagasay are yet another issue. In short, Africa is a geographical continent home to many races, not a racial group. The term was surely only introduced because someone back in the Civil Rights days found the term 'black' offensive. This is hardly sane.

Also, I find it interesting that Liberia is held to have such a high population of African-Americans when the definition at the top of the article insists they be residents or citizens of the United States. I was not aware that the American-descended population of Liberia had all been granted U.S. citizenship. There should be at least some mention of American descent being allowed for too.

What about Brazilians, Surinamese, Guyanans and Caribbeans of African descent? They are American; they are of African descent; ergo, they are African American. 'African American' is two words, not one. According to the rules of the English language, if both adjectives are satisfied by an individual, that person is African... American.

In short, this overly political buzzword, though correct, could be replaced by 'black American/U.S. citizen', if it is meant to exclude groups other than who is meant - just as 'Caucasian', an even more stupid and indeed incorrect term, could be replaced by 'white'. The English, Germans and French live nowhere near the Caucasus and they are certainly not culturally, anthropologically, linguistically or historically Caucasian.

As for Barack Obama, this raises another highly relevant issue. The pain inflicted upon most black Americans historically is ultimately due to the slave trade that brought them there and the slavery and segregatition that this people had to endure as a result. Barack Obama is NOT a part of that. The first had a Kenyan father who just jumped into American history by hopping over a few decades ago. To say that he is even from the same part of the world as other African Americans is to insult the diversity of Africa. West Africans and Kenyans are as far apart culturally and geographically as Russians and Englishmen. It is an insult that both white and black Americans often fail to see the wonderful diversity of this continent, but choose rather to see it as Africa as a 'Big Black Lump'. If the term 'African American' is to be used in terms of righting historical wrongs, it is not fair that. If Obama is elected, his election will NOT be some crowning moment historically, i.e. 'From Slave to President: The Story of the African American'. As much as we all look forward to this story playing out, and as good a president as Obama may well make, Obama has no right to the climax. He will be just another immigrant-descended president, like Kennedy or Reagan. It is an insult to the suffering of a good seventh of the American population. Kenya has suffered too - but that is a different story. If 'African American' is to be some legal term, those descended from slaves should have a separate term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.23.13 (talk) 14:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

More About (West-?)African Origins?
I'm not going to do it now (way too tired), but has anyone considered adding more info (stats, etc.) about *where* in Africa the majority of African-American slaves (or their ancestors, as the case may be) came from? It seems very significant to this entry and would be a great help to any African-American student (or anyone else) just beginning to think about African-American genealogical topics, even if just in a general sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seethaki (talk • contribs) 21:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

"survived" changed to "were freed after"
A Change from survived to were freed after is necessary. saying "survived" doesn't give a clear description of how slavery ended in history. And using words like "survived" can be taken as un-neutral or bias. This is what the statement say, with my revision added in italics and bold: --Cooljuno411 (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans who survived were freed after the slavery era within the boundaries of the present United States, although some are — or are descended from — voluntary immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, South America, or elsewhere.
 * Additional comment: User:Malik Shabazz, judging by your username and profile i can assume this may be a sensitive topic for you, as is I. But please do not make up lies and false pretenses to revert my edits. Like you did by saying : Reverted 1 edit by Cooljuno411; Rv edits that are imprecise and becoming disruptive. (TW) --Cooljuno411 (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * When your changes have been reverted by two different editors but you insist on making them a third time, that's disruptive editing. So don't accuse me of lying when I've accurately described your actions.
 * Second, your description is incorrect. African-Americans are descended from Africans who were enslaved, but not all of them "were freed" at the end of the Civil War (an expression that makes them passive objects in somebody else's drama). Some had freed themselves, whether through escape or by purchasing their own freedom. But all of them had, in fact, survived the slavery era.
 * PS - If you have a personal comment about my Username or my User page, make it on my Talk page. Don't presume what is or isn't a "sensitive topic" for me, and I won't presume that your subsitution of Michael Jackson's mugshot for his photo indicates that you're a complete jackass. Instead, I'll assume good faith. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Exsume me, NO, This is not how it's going down. How dare you be through'n insults my way, Sorry that i actually follow the whole concept of Wiki by trying to implement "UP-TO-DATE" content. Maybe if you read a talk page or two you would see that we already agreed to use another picture of Michael Jackson. Sorry, out-dated pictures from 1984 just don't fly up with me. And back to the topic at hand, duh they weren't freed after the civil war, i have been in a high school history class, last time i checked it was this lovely thing called the hmmmmm...... what is again, OH YEAH, The Thirteenth Amendment. And the sentence has a great precursor "Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans...", and how did the majority of slaves become free, from that amendment. By saying survived it doesn't even empliment any historical reference. All i see is someone trying to "get back at modern white people for actions by past white people" through a sneaky bias statement, i believe slavery is wrong but we can't hold grudges from over 100 years. If you don't like my idea of what should replace that portion, then maybe instead of being aggressive you should be proactive and suggest something else. I'm sorry to tell you but that word "survived" is going, it highly un-neutral and doesn't have any historical value, and personally it very offensive to modern white people. So be a leader and suggest another snippet to replace it. Would you like this phrase, "Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans who were freed after the emplimation of The Thirteenth Amendment...". And i think your part about buying their freedom or running away can also fit in the statement as well, i am fine with historical truths but hiding the truth through bias word such as "survived" doesn't fit in my boat. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 03:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Your attempt at "Black English" is just too, too precious. There was no discussion here about replacing Jackson's photo. And there is absolutely no consensus, except in your overheated imagination, to replace the word "survived". (And by the way, maybe you should read an article before you link to it. According to Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, "Prior to its ratification, slavery remained legal only in Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and New Jersey; everywhere else in the USA slaves had been freed by state action and the federal government's Emancipation Proclamation.") — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah i know about that, the slaves states that remained with the union (border states) were permitted to keep slaves and basically the Confederate states were subject to the Emancipation Proclamation. Yeah i know, like i said I've been in a High School American History Class. And how i type is irelavent, the subject at hand is replacing "survive" with a more in depth description. So unless you suggest a replacement sentence that goes into much greater detail then "survive", i will take into my own hands and you will be in contempt if you try to revert it. I am trying to collaborate with you but you are sure making it difficult. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 07:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll "be in contempt"? Ha ha ha. Why don't you brush up on WP:3RR, Mr. High School American History. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 08:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep... cool... 3 reverts got it. So are you going to collaborate or not. Through out this whole talk you have not yet tried to even to collaborate. So are you going to express your opinion of a replacement or continue to be ignorant. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 09:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You have a nerve, ignorant, i specifically remember you saying over at the michael jackson page, "I can just about handle your black pride but...." , ha, im not even black, but ignorant people suck as yourself cant realise that its ok to like and support other races, im hispanic, i think black people are cool, it doesn't make me black though. Such ignorance. Realist2 (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" Fclass (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno411, please be advised that Wikipedia works by consensus. If you are unable to persuade a change in consensus, do not attempt to "take it into your own hands" with edit warring or you will be in violation of Wikipedia policy (even if you are not guilty of breaking WP:3RR). About your arguement, as a white person I see nothing personally insulting to white people and find Malik's arguement that the description of African Amercians simply being freed "makes them passive objects in somebody else's drama" and not descriptive of the whole story quite persuasive. Also, you have given no evidence that this is "someone trying to "get back at modern white people for actions by past white people" through a sneaky bias statement;" how did your mind even link the present to the past for this statement anyway? Lastly, inserting a police mugshot of all things into a section about those voted to be the 'greatest African Americans' and then complaining that the article is not neutral and somehow biased against whites reeks of hypocrisy. Don't be ignorant of your own prejudice. Cigraphix (talk) 14:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

He tries inserting that mugshot picture where ever he can, i expect to see it on the Cup cake article next. Realist2 (talk) 20:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

CoolJuno411, I am also a "modern white person" and "survived" seems like the appropriate word to me. I fail to see how it is biased. "We're freed from", on the other hand, implies that some unnamed third party released the African-Americans from slavery, which does not strike me as accurate - it denies the role and agency of African-Americans in their own emancipation, which has been documented, it is vague about who did the freeing (if the African-Americans had no part in it), and it is grammatically confusing. You mentioned earlier that the fact that not all slaves "were freed" is covered by the word "most". But "most" refers specifically to the phrase "captive Africans", in which the exceptions to "most" are "voluntary immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, South America, or elsewhere". It does not refer to "were freed", in which the exceptions to "most" are "slaves that weren't freed". Readers will not assume that "most" applies to "were freed" because that's not how the whole sentence is structured. And please be civil and assume good faith. --130.63.128.248 (talk) 01:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

This phrase in the beginning sounds a little strange: "descendants of captive Africans who survived the slavery era". Just as if the captive Africans survived that era. Im German, my English is not good enough to correct it. --Tocca (talk) 17:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Phil Ivey
Won award for Toyota poker player of the year, 9 WPT final tables (a WPT record), top 10 money earning poker players of last 8 years, and is called the "tiger woods" of poker and he is VERY noteable. I'll leave the decision to you guys, hope this info helps. He is a outstanding culmination of some of the heart of african american qualities. His wikipedia page has even way more stuff, and every list of "5 best poker players" no matter which list, always have Ivey. Sentriclecub (talk) 21:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Obama image
An editor removed the photo of Barack Obama from the article with the edit summary that the image is "irrelevant". I restored the image and invited a discussion here.

I'm curious why the editor feels the picture of a prominent African-American is irrelevant, and I'm interested in the views of other editors. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the photo is very relevant--Obama is one of the most famous Americans of African ancestry in history. Could we vote to have it re-added, or...? Seethaki (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it may be because he is not an African American in the strict sense of the term: Descended from slaves originating in "undifferentiated" Africa, rather than a recent immigrant from a modern country in Africa. His father is Kenyan and his mother is a caucasian American. Roger (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If a person can trace their ancestory to Africa in the U.S. then they are considered African-American. It does not matter how many other races they may be mixed with. The majority of black people today are mixed with so many other races but still are considered African-American. It does not matter if his ancestors were slaves or not. His father was African his mother was American, so he is African-American.  Dumaka (talk) 00:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

only if he had both afician and amercian CitizenShip would he be called afican amercian he father is black his mother is white which makes him mixed race Charlize Theron is from afica and has amercia CitizenShip would you call her afican america? just cause his father is from afica and mothe is from american doesn't make him afican amercian, afican american is a term used for american whos parents are of afican descent his perants are afican AND white so his mixed race. i do totally agree the picture should be keep up here if it was a article about black people altogether (meaning not just amercians) them maybe it shouldn't be there but this is an article about afican americans and as he is running for persident which means he should really be addded in, maybe they chose to take it out cause his dad is actually from afica so his ancestors aren't from the afican slave era that got taken to amercia.

P.S Aficia IS not a country, Kenya is a country in afican just like england and scotland are countries in great britian. Veggiegirl (talk) 21:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

How many black women actually take car eof their children?
I asked here because of the statistic saying that 70% of black children are abandoned by their father. If a child is raised by their grandparents but custody of the child is given to the mother doe sit still qualify as a mother raising her own child? What about the actual time the mother spends with the child? These are important to the statistics.YVNP (talk) 07:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Crime
This article should contain a section that describes the large amount crime that african americans perform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mybodyhurts01 (talk • contribs) 14:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a valid issue even if Mybodyhurts01 stated it rather inelegantly. The disproportionate involvement of African-Americans in crime is one of the most serious current social problems in the US. Even if it shouldn't get an entire section, a single phrase is inadequate. Roger (talk) 07:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless the article is going to discuss the criminalization of Black life — i.e., the disproportionate attention paid by lawmakers and police to African-Americans — I don't see why it should mention the "fact" that African-Americans are responsible for a disproportionate share of crimes. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

i think adding that would be giving the impersion that all afican americans are poor and comite crimes which isn't the case lots of white people comite crimes and are proably poorerVeggiegirl (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Although there are vastly more whites in the US, and therefore, more white criminals, blacks commit crimes at a far higher rate than any other race in the U.S. I don't think it's imperative to include it, since there are other articles on race and crime, but it could be mentioned as an issue and the race and crime article could be linked from there, for thoroughness.


 * As for "criminalization of black life", it is the blacks who commit the crimes, not politicians. If they want their lives not to be 'criminalized', they should not commit crime...Feichangdao (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Black & White pictures in the infobox
Is there any reason the photos in the infobox are all black & white pictures? I know these photos are old but why not adding some pictures of more contemporary African Americans? 16@r (talk) 16:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit war
Can we take this to the talk page, rather than putting in that greatest list // taking it out // putting it in again // taking it out again.... and so on for more boring times. --Dumarest (talk) 11:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't been a part of the edit war, but I'm assuming you're talking the removing and restoring of the "Greatest African Americans" poll from Discovery/AOL. Personally, I think that it adds value to the article and should stay. I know that it's only one poll, but if you look at the results, I think it goes along the lines of which black Americans are most notable in the U.S.  It's at the end of the article, so I don't think it interrupts the flow. Kman543210 (talk) 11:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that a pool by Discovery Channel and America Online is not notable to the overall subject of African Americans. It already have its article at The Greatest American. Singling out the African Americans sounds like pushing some interpretation of the results. Also, the gallery breaks the prose ("The following four African Americans were considered..."    "The following African Americans were also among the 100 "   ). --Damiens .rf 12:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo Historical Theory
...although there is a pseudohistorical theory of Pre-Columbian African presence. I know that it says that it's pseudo historical, but just by definition of of the word, I don't think it should even be mentioned. This theory is generally accepted as beyond a fringe theory, and I didn't think those even deserve a mention in the article. There is another theory that a European culture was in North America pre-Columbian as well, evidence by DNA and spear heads; however, even this with evidence is fringe enough not to be mentioned in main articles about Europeans. If no one objects, I would like to remove this sentence. Kman543210 (talk) 15:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Cultural Influence in the United States or list of black inventors?
I think many of the inventions listed in this section shouldn't be listed here as they are not related to the cultural influence of African Americans in the United States.

For instance - improving filament in a light bulb, or self lubricating engines is a technical innovation or improvement but not a cultural shift. If an inventor is noteworthy enough to this article, they belong in a section called Noteworthy African Americans etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.185.32 (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Article Name
American Negroes are American, not African. I believe the article should be named either Black American or American Negro. --Doctor Bojangles (talk) 07:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I also notice the article on whites is called White American, not European American or anything like that. --Doctor Bojangles (talk) 07:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * African American has just become the more politically correct term, but Black American is fine acceptable. Negro is a term that is absolutely not used in the mainstream U.S. (except in the United Negro College Fund), and it can even be offensive to some. All the hyphenated-American (and sometimes not hyphenated anymore) denote ancestry and not current status, so everyone who says African American in the U.S. is well aware that it doesn't mean that someone is from Africa but that their ancestors were. Same with European American, Mexican American, German American, etc. Whether it's logical that one article is "White American" while this one is "African American doesn't matter as much as common use. Kman543210 (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree Doctor Bojangles, many people, especially non-black consider A-A very derogatory, and it is unfortunate that Wikipedia has taken the use of A-A to the extreme to even using it in their categories, because they think it is the overall conesus to be the politically correct term and not illogical or derogatory. Black American or Afro American would make more sense. I think the word Negro is considered dergatorey and offensive to a lot of black people, even more so than African American. I guess until for now Wikipedia is going to continue the usage of A-A, hopefully in the near future that would change.--Sugarcubez (talk) 09:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The consensus view, over hundreds of articles and categories, is that African American is Wikipedia's naming convention. If you think this article's name is wrong, you should probably start a centralized discussion about all articles and categories with "African American" in their title. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 15:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, like I said. It is sad and proably not going to change anytime soon, but hopefully one day people would see just how degeratorey it is to call all blacks and only blacks AA. One small step, can go long ways.--Sugarcubez (talk) 10:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * From the first paragraph, “Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans who survived the slavery era ..., although some are — or are descended from — voluntary immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, South America, ...” I'm sorry; I seem to have missed something completely. Does this paragraph indeed state that persons descended from Caribbeans or South Americans are in fact in the category of African American? If so, I'd like an explanation for that catastrophic contradiction. Could someone please explain the motivation? The linked “size and regional distribution of the black population” page clearly uses the terms “black population”, “African American”, and “Afro-Caribbean”. Additionally, it confuses me that Black Americans redirects to a page about African Americans. That article should be about black Americans, not redirect to African Americans simply because that is the majority of the complete population of black people of America. I am reminded, shamefully but seriously, of an article by Maddox, from which I quote, “the [black] person [pictured] is African (because it's inconceivable that black people could come from Haiti, India, Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Australia, or Jamaica). Nevermind that; BLACK PEOPLE ONLY COME FROM AFRICA.” It is a good point. I agree with Bojangles, that “American Negroes are American, not African,” and with Kman, that “negro”, although valid, carries connotations that needs no debate that we agree are offensive. One could argue that an Encylopedia should inform, not pander to feelings; however, “black” is equally as descriptive and meaningful as “negro” (and “negro” is no longer in technical use), thus I do not have a problem and fully support “black people”, and the renaming and restructuring of the article to “Black Americans”. I am keen to hear your opinions. Perhaps we could correct this issue. Thank you. (I hope I did not make any Wikipedia faux paus in this message.) — Chrisdone (talk) 05:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You all are stupid. The term African American means "a black American of African descent; a black person descendant of African slaves that were victims of American slavery." It doesn't mean we're technically African. And it does not apply to black immigrants from the Carribean or anywhere else. What about Italian-American? It means "a white American of Italian descent." Russian-American "a white American of Russian descent." Irish-American "a white American of Irish descent." What about Asian-American? I don't see you people questioning those ethnic terms. I think you're all racist. I have no problem with the use of the term black American or black. I just know they're not real ethnic or racial designations because black is a skin color. Most people in India are black-skinned. Most Australian Aborigines are black-skinned. Does it mean they're of African ancestry? No. Fclass (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Fcalls, please refrain from name calling and personal attacks. It's also not appropriate to delete someone else's comments on the talk page. I reverted your recent deletion in the article because African American does not always just refer to the descendants of black American slaves. According to the American Heritage dictionary:  A Black American of African ancestry.  By your narrow definition, Barack Obama would not be an African American because his father is from Kenya and did not descend from American slaves.  The article does explain that most black Americans descend from slaves, but there have been several African immigrants as well as black immigrants from other countries. Their children born in the U.S. would be considered African American as well. I agree with what you said that all the hyphenated terms (Italian American, Russian American, etc) indicate your ancestry but that you're an American. Kman543210 (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I consider myself to be an excellent judge of character. Personal attacks removed. Calling a black person the word negro is racist and offensive, just like the other n-word, nigger. IF ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR CALLS ME A NEGRO OR NIGGER, THERE WILL BE REPERCUSSIONS. I am an African-American or black American and I know the definition of it. It means "a black American of African ancestry; a descendant of African slaves that suffered through American slavery." Any black person that equates that with nigger is a stupid piece of shit modern day slave that hates his or her own heritage and history. Or in the words of Carter G. Woodson, the person is a "miseducated negro." Personal attacks removed. Why do you care? Why do some Caucasians care about what blacks do?. What about Asian-American? Italian-American? Russian-American? Arab-American? We have a right to self-determination. Also, the term is widely used and widely recognized and widely known throughout the U.S. and the world. Personal attacks removed. Fclass (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:No personal attacks, WP:Civility, and WP:Assume good faith. Further attacks such as the ones you've made may result in a block. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Greatest african americans
I see that this topic has already been discussed, but I feel compelled to ask the questions: can the word "greatest" even possibly be considered subjective and NPOV? Is such a section suitable for an encyclopedia? Is such a concept quantifiable under any existing standardized system? Is the basis source for this section peer-reviewed or scientific in any way? I would answer each question as simply and definitely no.

An utterly unscientific poll of television viewers is basically meaningless in the first place and could never carry any academic weight. Added to this, the list itself seems to imply that blacks can only be great if they aspire to positions of fame and power, which I think many would find offensive in and of itself.

In any case, this section couldn't possibly meet the criteria for being encyclopedic, and could (and should) be deleted on that basis alone. It is simply based on a poll of popular opinion, and isn't useful to anyone researching American history or to most any other academic pursuit.

This is not to say that the persons named here are not of importance or shouldn't be mentioned, but to appoint them to this page as being "the greatest" of any group is simply ridiculous and damages the integrity of the article.

Claimed popular opinion is not fact.

Kst447 (talk) 03:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have any feelings about it one way or the other, but I would point out that the "Wikipedia community" feels the contest was notable enough to warrant its own encyclopedia article, The Greatest American. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The article to which you are referring is on the source television program itself. Its existence born out of the Wikipedia community's will alone does not lend the program more or less credibility according to the rules.


 * See Wikipedia's Verifiability article:


 * Kst447 (talk) 05:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Imagine if someone were to include a Greatest White People section in the White people article. By crikey there'd be an uproar. --Doctor Bojangles (talk) 05:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a fair comparison. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that I understand that poll better, I can see why people might think that it doesn't belong. Greatness can't really be measured and is totally subjective; however, that was the name of the poll. The other concern that has been brought up is that it was just a "greatest Americans" poll, and someone just took out the black Americans and inserted them in here.  I don't have a strong feeling either way if people want to keep it or remove it from the article, but I would say that it's definitely subjective. Kman543210 (talk) 05:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What about Warren G. Harding? Should he be included in this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.198.78 (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if your comment was meant as sarcasm, but I'll address it seriously. No, he shouldn't. First off, he was not among the 100 Greatest Americans poll winners. Also, The idea of him having a black great-grandmother was put forth by William Chancellor, and most historians agree that this was probably political mud slinging and dubious claims. Kman543210 (talk) 23:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if his great-grandmother was black, you'd have to be pretty high to even consider him black now. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 02:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

So I'd like to move for some kind of a vote on removing the entire section, since discussion on the topic seems bare and empty. I personally can't see any value at all in allowing the section to remain. Kst447 (talk) 21:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There's been ample time for editors to argue why it should be kept. Be bold and take it out. The worst that can happen is that somebody who wants to keep it will join this discussion. [[Image:Smile.png|18px]] — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Deleted. :)
 * Kst447 (talk) 19:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sigh* I vote to keep the greatest African American section. I also dont see why it shouldve been taken out THEN debated..The debate shouldve happened before someone took it out. I personally dont have time in my life to constantly debate pointless things like this simply because of peoples hidden agendas. I actually saw the History channels Greatest American program and they did use certain criteria to decide who was the "Greastest"..So Im going to take Malik advice and BE BOLD to put it back in. Harding cant be included because the American public did not decide he was amoung the greatest of either black or white Americans. Since we have one for and one against, I think its fair to just keep it the way it is. To remind people African American refers to Americans of African ancestry, so its not accurate to equate this with "Greastest White Americans". White and Black are colors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello? The issue was discussed above. It was deleted a month after the discussion started, when nobody came to its defense.
 * Can you explain why you think this unscientific poll of television viewers belongs in an encyclopedia article? Or are you too busy making baseless allegations about "hidden agendas"? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Not African-American?
Judging by the US Census' standards for being African-American and White-American, would one who has direct Jewish ancestry (from the father), recent White-American ancestry (from the mother), direct Caribbean ancestry (from the father), and zero African ancestry be considered a white man or a black man? It really is confusing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.243.42 (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * On this person's census form, he or she would be black, though certainly entitled to check multiple boxes. Not everyone who is black on his or her census form has a black personal identity.  Many Jamaicans in particular do not like to be called "black" and prefer "Jamaican." There should be some note of that in this article, in fact...67.81.68.38 (talk) 20:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete all references of African American
It has now been established that the term African American is offensive to Black Americans, now this article should be renamed. The latest video by Smokey Robinson is being circulated around the Internet, and it has helped fuel this discussion. http://youtube.com/watch?v=j9zPRVKQvIM. It should not be considered good practice to continue to use an offensive term to describe any group of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.157.237.182 (talk) 12:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a joke, no? futurebird (talk) 15:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is absolutely NOT a joke. Until all white men are called European Americans (which will NEVER happen) the black community will be outraged at being called African Americans.  Some blacks have been in America longer than some whites, so why do the contributors of Wikipedia insist on showing racism by forcing a continent on my group? A continent for which I have never been, and if I went there I would not be viewed as an African, I'd be viewed as what I am--a black American.  If my roots are the sole basis of the name you wish to call me, then we are all African Americans, since scientist believe Africa was the origin of all mankind, so why force a label on me, while you go around just being an American? It is time to end this racism on Wikipedia! (Watch the video.  This isn't coming from some random person.  The blacks in the video clearly showed their approval of Smokey Robinson's words!)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.157.237.182 (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you even a member of the "black community?" I am. I'm not outraged. I don't know anyone who is. Stop being silly. futurebird (talk) 18:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Beyond the youtube video, what sources do you have to support this change? futurebird (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I am a proud BLACK American! Maybe you are hanging out at the country clubs because I don't know of a single black person who calls themself an "African American." What does Africa have to do with me?  I have never been!  Like most Americans, I have heritage from many groups, mostly black, but I have white and Indian blood too.  I am an American!  You don't need to degrade my value by hyphenating who I am.  My family has been here for generation after generation; how insulting can you get to call me an African American and the white guy next to me just an American?  I am a proud black man, but I am also a proud American!


 * In a Google search the discussion appears 1,360,000 times. In fairness to the opposing view, the New York Times says "African American" is "less offensive;" however, a further review shows that determination was made by a white person. This discussion also appeared on one of the 24 hour news networks.  This is a hot topic, and it is only fair to consider the fairness of calling blacks "African Americans" and whites "Americans."  When was the last time you heard of Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan referred to as an "Irish American" or a "European American?"  There is clearly a double standard involved in this!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.157.237.182 (talk) 19:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, so what sources do you have? I mean, other than the youtube video? I tend to call most white people Irish American, since most of them are... jeeez... who cares? There's a section in here about the history of this term and how it's not the only one. I think it's fine. We should not expunge every reference to "African American" because it's part of our history. It's a term that was made up by black folks in the 80s or 90s. It may be a little dated now... but, changing it won't change the reality of the black experience. I don't really know what you want to do here. And I'm not from a country club, I'm from the South Bronx. Please give me a better idea of your goal.  futurebird (talk) 19:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I see you added some sources, but we need sources that talk about what term is correct. The term seems to change every ten years for some reason, hen I was young the term "black" was consider "offensive" -- I think the real issue is that racism is offensive, just changing the word won't change racism. "American" stands for people of all races. Not just white people-- if people think it means just white people then there is your issue. futurebird (talk) 19:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I have stated my case. If a white person is white than call me black.  As Smokey said in the video "black is not the color of my skin, it is the core of who I am."  Black it still used as often as African American on the news.  Are people who are originally from Egypt or Morocco "African Americans?"  Their family has been to Africa more recently than mine.  My bigger point is the fairness in the term.  Why are only minorities hyphenated? It sends the signal that we are less American than white people.  If Obama is an African American running for President, then John McCain should be viewed as an European American running for President.  There is a clear double standard.  Maybe some people are not offended, but that doesn't make it right.  My grandfather was not offended by negro.  As Smokey said, "negro is just the Spanish word for black."  Wikipedia should not be a place where different standards are set because of your heritage.  If whites are white, I am black.  If blacks are African Americans, then whites are European Americans.  Choose one standard for everyone and stop changing it every ten years.

AMERICAN is already an Ethnicity like French, Xhosa, Italian or Zulu, all of them already a mixture of ethnic groups (Celts, Goths, Latins basically inside the "French" ethnicity for example) When a group of White Americans arrive to England, Italy, France or Germany nobody thinks they are "German-Americans", "Italian-Americans" or even "English-Americans". The truth is that White AMERICANS are a different tribe from any European tribe....And the same goes to Black AMERICANS who are also a mixture of different African and European tribes (from Ghana, Nigeria, Angola, England...) When a group of Black AMERICANS arrive to Ghana, Senegal or Kenya the Senegalese or Kenyan don´t consider them Africans. NO, they are a different tribe with a different way of life and a different look (as even Alex Haley said at the end of his book "Roots") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.18.148.59 (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, what do we call white Africans who become American citizens? Is Charlize Theron an African American?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.157.237.182 (talk) 19:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends on which country in Africa they came from. The whole reason "African American" is a unique term is that it refers to a continent, since the vast majority of us don't know what country in African our African ancestors are from. futurebird (talk) 20:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

See:


 * People of the United States of America -- it's about all people who live in the US. futurebird (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

african americans only USA blacks?
ill have to complain how this article restricts itself to black people from the USA while America is a continent which goes from chile and argentina to alaska. theres millions of black people in countries like brazil, venezuela, colombia, dominican republic, jamaica, canada, etc.--Eduen (talk) 00:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The term "African American" is generally used to refer only to people from the United States. You can find links to articles about people of African descent in other countries in the Americas at African diaspora. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 00:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as Shabazz has indicated, in the English language, American usually indicates someone from the United states rather than from the continents of North America or South America, so African American is a hyphenated "demonym" indicating an American of African decent. In the Spanish language, the terminology is different; however, this is the English language version of wikipedia.  There is an article dedicated to Afro-Latin Americans as well as black people from several different countries other than the United States.  You can complain all you want, but this is how the English language is, so please respect the different nuances of terminology in a different language other than Spanish or Portuguese.  Other articles on black people from the Americas include Afro Argentine, Afro Bolivian, Afro-Ecuadorian people, Black history in Puerto Rico, Afro-Brazilian, Black Canadians, Afro-Chilean, Afro-Colombian, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Guyanese, Jamaicans of African descent, Afro-Costa Rican, Afro-Mexican, Afro-Peruvian, and Afro-Trinidadian people. Kman543210 (talk) 03:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you have be born in America to be an African-American. Our backround is unique —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.172.186 (talk) 06:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Political overtones
The whole section of "political overtones" is poorly written. It contains no citations, much of it seems unverifiable, and and it uses a lot of weasel words. The section needs some drastic cleanup.--Darknus823 (talk) 04:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Section on Slavery?
The popular conception of a race-based slave system did not fully develop until the 1700s. - I think some type of reference needs to be made to the Middle Passage. It seems that the importance of this is glossed over in the article. A link to the Wikipedia page may be sufficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Passage

The tone of this entry, while positive and seemingly objective, seems to dismiss the pain and suffering that many Black Americans have faced.

--BimmerBeenz09 (talk) 01:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Charlize Theron
Charlize Theron is African American. Why isn't she mentioned in the article? --Ragemanchoo (talk) 07:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you sure she is a US citizen? Roger (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you sure she is African American? "African Americans or Black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa." Last time I checked, she was white. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 16:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Charlize Theron article makes an uncited claim that she became a US citizen in 2007. But I think that is actually beside the point. The real issue that this question (which always returns soon after its previous incarnation gets archived) raises is that "African" does not always equal "Black" and therefor the way it is used in the term "African American" is at some level "dishonest" or "fake". Roger (talk) 17:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This keeps coming up. Yes, you could imagine African American being a phrase that simply said someone is an African and an American. No, that's not what it means. To use it that way is almost like a pun. It's like saying that the article on New York should cover recently built buildings in York. - Jmabel | Talk 17:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Charlize Theron does not fit the definition of African American, as it is a racial term for black Americans. See my comments below in the WHITE AFRICANS section where four official definitions can be found. Some may find the term "dishonest" or "fake"; however, it is a set term in the English language in both official and common use. Kman543210 (talk) 04:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

RELIGION
THERE ARE MILLIONS OF AFRICAN AMERICAN CATHOLICS..MORE THAN RASTAFARIANS AND AFRO MUSLIMS AND PROBABLY MANY OTHERS ON THE LIST COMBINED!! RIDICULOUS THAT THE MILLIONS OF BLACK AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE COMPLETELY SNUBBED IN THIS ARTICLE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.158.55 (talk) 20:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

pictures
in the top grid of six people why arent there any (excuse the pun) colored pictures?♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 06:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

WHITE AFRICANS
There are millions of White Africans not just in South Africa (over 4 millon White Africans), Namibia, Angola and Spain (2 million White Africans in Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla) but all around Africa, above all in North Africa (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.18.148.59 (talk) 18:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not a place to discuss one's disagreement with the usage of the term African American; the definition is well sourced. Whether you agree with its usage or not, it is a set phrase with a specific definition in both official usage as well as common speech (I personally never use the term just like I would never say European American when referring to white people).  It is a racial term that describes black Americans, period/full stop.  Here are 4 official definitions of the term African American (notice every single one of them specifies black):
 * Random House Unabridged: A black American of African descent.
 * American Heritage Dictionary: A black American of African ancestry
 * Webster’s New World College Dictionary: An American having ancestors from sub-Saharan Africa; black American.
 * MSN Encarta encyclopedia: (American blacks or black Americans), racial group in the United States whose dominant ancestry is from sub-Saharan West Africa.
 * U.S. Census Bureau: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.
 * This article itself describes it in terms of black Americans and not just people who were born in or have ancestry from Africa. Kman543210 (talk) 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

LIBERIA
When Black Americans were sent to Liberia during the XIX Century they were not as mixed as they are now but just children of different African tribes but with English already as their language and with English names and last names. They had lost the culture of their parents the same way White Americans lose the culture of their parents to become just a new AMERICAN ethnicity.

Most Black Americans can be called B.A.S.P. (Black Anglo Saxon Protestant) and are a different tribe, a different ethnic group from any of Africa: neither zulues nor xhosas nor anything else. So when a group of black AMERICANS arrive to Senegal or Ghana they look different to any of the tribes already there the same way as when white AMERICANS arrive to France or Italy they look different from any European tribe.

All ethnic groups (French, English, Xhosa, Tswana...) are a mixture of different former tribes. And the same goes to AMERICANS who have become clearly to the rest of the World a different ethnic group, a different tribe. Even if millions of Americans say "I am German-American, French-American..." that´s false because the overwhelming majority of them are mixed and look different from Germans or French and when they go to Germany or France people think they are NOT German or French...the same goes for the so called "African-American". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.18.148.59 (talk) 02:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have a suggestion on how to improve or change the article or are you just using this as a forum? Kman543210 (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

this article avoids racism
Across the article it makes statements such as 'african americans have the second highest". That is a deceptive statement. Are we saying everyone who isn't a non-hispanic white or everyone who isn't white? If we claim a minority is someone who isn't white then african americans have the lowest statistic. That is very notable and shouldn't be covered upYVNP (talk) 07:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Guide on whether or not to use "African American" in biographical articles?
Is there a style guide on this point? I'm surprised, for instance, that Martin Luther King, Jr. is not so described in the lead of his article, while Barack Obama is (I would think both should be). It's a significant part of their identities and of why they are notable. Шизомби (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)