Talk:African Americans/Archive 20

Second discussion
(Moved from Users Talk page)Stop trying to describe African Americans as ONLY descendents from slaves, it is not backed up by majority of sourcing and is not the consensus on the Talk page. If you wish to tweak the wording, seek consensus on the Talk page. But your 'all or nothing' approach is disruptive. Dave Dial (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC) Edited to reflect this was moved from the Middayexpress Talk page, the edit was to caution the user to stop slow edit warring on this article. Dave Dial (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * DD2K, please stop reverting and use the talk page. If you had, you would have already been aware that RightCowLeftCoast proposed a new compromise wording yesterday (not me), which I accepted provided that it was slightly modified for simplicity and redundancy. RightCowLeftCoast said that he was OK with either phrase (post above dated 22:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)), so I added the new compromising wording today with the discussed Soberon reference. What are your objections if any to the new compromise phrasing that RightCowLeftCoast initially proposed? If you are unwilling or unable to articulate them, there is no reason why the old wording should remain for the second sentence. Also, please see Brigade Piron's post above. Middayexpress (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I mostly agree with RCLC, but your change in wording and 'agreement' isn't an automatic WP:CONSENSUS. He also suggested an RfC. The wording stating: "The term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves." is superior to "According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves." You made the change after the wording was already change to compromise with you. Dave Dial (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not the compromise wording that RightCowLeftCoast suggested. He wrote: "Rather than using "sometimes" how about "Several sources specify that the term African-American is exclusive to an ethnicity of those who in whole or in part can trace their ancestry to those who arrived in what is now the United States by the Atlantic slave trade"?" I then suggested a slight modification of that for simplicity and to correct for redundancy vis-a-vis the first sentence (viz. "According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves, who form a distinct ethnic group"), to which he wrote that he was okay with either phrase. That said, please see my response above under second lead sentence. Middayexpress (talk) 16:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I am OK with either phrase, but as I stated the phrase that should be used in the article is the one that has received consensus, if there is not consensus for either phrase, than we should discuss the possible language here rather than engaging in a slow moving contentious editing in the article. Now, again, I am OK with either phrase. So perhaps the best would be to take a straw poll, and see what language has the most consensus/support, and then move forward from there.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll
To determine which language/wording has the most support/consensus to be used in the lead/first paragraph of this article, which impacts the scope of this article, the following straw poll is initiated, boldly, by myself in an attempt to determine consensus. Please indicate support by typing *Support--~ underneath the phrase that an editor believes is best for use in this article. Any editor may include an option if they so wish. Poll should be closed on 16 November 2014.

Option 1
"African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial antebellum ancestry from any of the native populations of Africa."


 * Oppose - Excludes multitudes of sourced Peoples who are identified and self-identify as 'African American'. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - This is the historical and traditional ethnic group definition of African American. The overwhelming majority of sources identify such individuals as African Americans (e.g. Oprah Winfrey), not recent immigrants (e.g. the Beninean Angelique Kidjo). The latter are instead usually identified by their own actual ethnic group, and this is how they typically self-identify too. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This ignores the definitions which include post-bellum African ancestry. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose primarily because it is unreadable. Secondarily, it does not reflect the source material - there are basically two definitions literature, one that includes anyone of Sub-saharn ancestry and another that restrict is to only those with antebellum ancestry.  To be neutral  we should include both. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 22:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Support. Looks good to me. AcidSnow (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose This definition excludes Barack Obama and many other people that clearly fall into the category African American, which is a social rather than biological category. Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 2
"African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. The term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American."


 * Support - Current wording and includes the definition of the sourced wording as well as mentions the less used meaning. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Wording of first sentence was added a few hours ago and is not supported by the references flanking it. It also falsely suggests that recent immigrants along with actual African Americans form an ethnic group despite in many instances not sharing any significant heritage. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak support. Stronger wording than "also" should be given to the definition which requires African slave heritage. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - it neutrally presents both major definitions while making it clear that different sources define the term differently.  Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:01, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Per Dave Dial and the unnamed user Mr. Swordfish. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Limiting the definition to sub-Saharan Africans excludes some black Africans, such as Nubians, who fall into the category African American, by virtue of cultural identity and the perception of others. (African American is a social, not a biological, concept.) Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 3
"African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa."


 * Support -(2nd option) Concise, but leaves out sourced minority view. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Leaves out the traditional ethnic group definition of African Americans in Option #1. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The antebellum definition should be present as well. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I think there is evidence that the other definition is common enough to warrant inclusion in the lede. My take is that the lede should present both in a neutral, encyclopaedic manner.  Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Limiting the definition to sub-Saharan Africans excludes some black Africans, such as Nubians, who fall into the category African American, by virtue of cultural identity and the perception of others. (African American is a social, not a biological, concept.) Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 4
"African Americans constitute the second largest racial and ethnic minority in the United States. Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved blacks within the boundaries of the present United States. However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations, and their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term."


 * Oppose - Too much weight to minority view. Second, third(etc) generation immigrants have had little choice but to be identified as African Americans, whether self-identified or not. Especially prior to the new millenium. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Clearly identifies the actual provenance of African Americans. Also, when the term appears on census forms, "African American/Black" is a self-reporting entry. So if recent immigrants and their progeny choose to identify with their own actual ethnic background, that is their prerogative. The census bureau itself indicates as much. Either way, the immigrants' actual genetic heritage remains the same. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. The question of whether the group is the largest or second largest minority should be saved for later mention, with an indication of historical changes in ranking. But naming the major and minor areas of ancestry is good. A timeframe of ancestry should be indicated. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is basically the second pagagraph of the article - is this a proposal to delete the first paragraph? If so, oppose.  Support this as the second paragraph.  Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks good to me. AcidSnow (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Support This is better than the exclusionary alternatives. We do need to make sure that readers understand that it is only black Africans who are African American, but the lede does this by making AA synonymous with black American. Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 5
"According to the definition used by the US Census African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are residents of the United States having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Some authors restrict the definition to include only those individuals who are descended from ancestors who lived in the United States prior the the American Civil War. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American."


 * Oppose - Too technical and wordy, among other objections listed above. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - A lot more than some authors restrict the term "African American" to individuals who are descended from ancestors who lived in the United States prior the the American Civil War. This was, in fact, the only definition of African Americans until recent immigration, and it still is the main one in the real world. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose -Utter nonsense, what is a black racial group of Africa? Absolutely not. --Inayity (talk) 20:34, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Too much credence given a federal definition. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose and I wrote it. This is the kind of crap that we wind up publishing as a result of too-many-cooks where we wind up compromising on a version that everybody dislikes.  Let's not do that here.Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Black" is a social, not a biological concept. This definition implies that "black racial group" is an objective concept, when it is a subjective (social concept). Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 6
"African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. Several sources specify that the term African-American is exclusive to an ethnicity of those who in whole or in part can trace their ancestry to those who arrived in what is now the United States by the Atlantic slave trade. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American."


 * Oppose - Same objections as #4, although this is better worded than #7. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Same rationale as Option #7. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - I am flying by and b/c i was not with debate from start am offering a quick vote.--Inayity (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak support. "Several sources" ought to be given more authority. "Specify" is too strong. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose I reads as "some say X, some say Y" so I find acceptable, but it's a bit wordy fof my tastes. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks good to me. AcidSnow (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Limiting the definition to sub-Saharan Africans excludes some black Africans, such as Nubians, who fall into the category African American, by virtue of cultural identity and the perception of others. (African American is a social, not a biological, concept.) Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Option 7
"African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves, who form a distinct ethnic group. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American."


 * Oppose - Same objections as #4. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Notes the provenance of African Americans, while at the same time acknowleding the term's historical, traditional and real world meaning. Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Ignores any definition which includes post-bellum African ancestry. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's not at all clear from this wording that "some say X, some say Y". Readers will be confused.    Mr. Swordfish (talk) 23:32, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks good to me. AcidSnow (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Limiting the definition to sub-Saharan Africans excludes some black Africans, such as Nubians, who fall into the category African American, by virtue of cultural identity and the perception of others. (African American is a social, not a biological, concept.) Steeletrap (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments

 * I appreciate the effort, RCLC, but do you think there are a few more choices here than need to be? I think most can agree that the majority of sources support #3, but the minority sourcing is important too and should be mentioned. But I do not see how we can leave off the majority of sourcing like the final two options do. In any case, thanks again. Dave Dial (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks RightCowLeftCoast, but I'm not quite sure if I understand the straw poll. Is it meant to determine the page's existing scope or instead to try and forge a new scope without first identifying what the existing one is? Because the scope is usually identified in the lede, and lede is in turn a summary of the page's existing content. Either way, I think you should perhaps first add a note below asking users to provide a rationale for their selection as per the consensus policy. I recommend asking something like "please support your selection with a brief rationale, noting which parts of the body you think your chosen lede adequately summarizes and why". Middayexpress (talk) 19:01, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Editors can or cannot, their choice/freedom, choose to "support your selection...". This is to determine a consensus what the lead of the article is, the first paragraph, and thus the scope of the rest of the article. This is where the root of the disagreement is. Depending on what has consensus will impact not only the lead, but the rest of the article.
 * , I attempted to list all the choices for proposed wordings to the lead, in what has been used in the article (prior to the editing disagreements, "stable"), in different iterations of the lead since the wording of the lead became contentious, subject to debate, and those proposed in the talk page. I tried to make this poll as impartial as possible, in an attempt to mediate, and create consensus.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand that, RightCowLeftCoast. What I was referring to there is the consensus policy stipulation that "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority)". At any rate, your efforts are appreciated. Middayexpress (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, I understand what you're trying t accomplish. I just don't know if you realize that the 'stable version' has long been the more concise version listed for #3. It was changed repeatedly by Middayexpress the last several months(1,2,3,4), in which he has been also repeatedly reverted(1,2,3,4) by numerous editors. The editor almost always claims some kind of 'Talk page consensus', when there was none. That's one editor inserting the 'antebellum' qualifier and now 6 different editors removing it. Before Middayexpress inserted the qualifier in April, the article did not have that qualifier. And has not had it in the article for most of the time since April, except during the periods when Middayexpress added it before it was reverted again. Dave Dial (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact remains that the page was and is already largely on individuals with ancestry from Africa from the pre-civil war period. All of its sections were and are mainly, if not entirely, devoted to such individuals (e.g. Oprah Winfrey), not to recent immigrants from elsewhere (e.g. the Beninean Angelique Kidjo). One is welcome to believe that Kidjo is equally or more often identified as African American than Winfrey is or that Kidjo is equally or more frequently called African American than Beninean, but that both doesn't jibe with the real world and is frankly illogical. This why the women are identifed as Beninean and African American, respectively, on their own wikibios. It also doesn't jibe with pretty much all sections of this very article, particularly the admixture segment, which is exclusively devoted to the ethnogenesis of actual African Americans like Winfrey. Middayexpress (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not going to weight in in the poll unless there is a significant need to, and near the end of the poll. May I suggest that editors look at how other articles about races and ethnicities in the United States are defined, how their scope is created. This might help in making a decision on the above options.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll result evaluation
From the straw poll it appears that Option 2 has the most support of editors who chose to make their opinions known in the straw poll. Please comment below.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Option 1 - 3 oppose, 2 support = -1
 * Option 2 - 1 oppose, 1 weak support, 3 support = 2.5
 * Option 3 - 3 oppose, 1 support = -2
 * Option 4 - 2 oppose, 1 weak oppose, 2 support = -0.5
 * Option 5 - 5 oppose = -5
 * Option 6 - 1 oppose, 1 weak oppose, 1 weak support, 3 support = 2
 * Option 7 - 3 oppose, 2 support = -1

Comments regarding straw poll results

 * Comment - Option 2 had one more supporter than Option 6, hardly a consensus. As pointed out in the comments above, the consensus policy likewise stipulates that "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority)". While nonetheless an interesting exercise, the count also conflicts with the Asian American page, which was mentioned above as an example to follow. The latter page defines its population as narrowly as possible (although no native "Asian American" population exists), while a number of the options above attempted the opposite here (although a native "African American" population already exists). Middayexpress (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Article Name
Has there been a discussion about this article's name? There are a number of reasons that "Black American" would be more suitable:

A) Most Black Americans prefer the title "Black American" over "African American" - that's according to scientific polling, not me just saying it. B) The corresponding article for White Americans is titled "White American" instead of "European American" C) The vast majority of Black Americans have no African ancestors going back many generations. The slave trade ended in 1808, and consequently very few Africans came to the United States after 1808. D) The term "African American" is somewhat inaccurate when describing black Americans who originate in some other place (e.g. Haiti, Brazil, etc.) Note that white South Africans who come to America are South African Americans, it would be a little bit odd to call them "European Americans" if their ancestors hadn't lived in Europe for centuries.

Plokmijnuhbygvtfcdxeszwaq (talk) 02:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but the name officially used in America by every source on the planet for these so-called black people is African American. South Africa is a name of a country it does not mean South + African (race). Sometimes it is shocking the types of proposals people put forward. How do you know what "Most Black Americans" prefer? Please go to the Italian Americans, Irish American, Greek Americans, and my fav Jewish Americans and rename those pages. And last time I checked Haitian come from the same place the African Americans come from AFRIKA!--Inayity (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I did not mean to "shock" you with this question. I challenge your claim that every source on the planet uses the term African American.  In a 2011 Wall Street Journal/NBC poll (don't even try telling me it's biased), 42% of respondents said they preferred to be called "black," compared to 35% who preferred "African American."  And as for your suggestion, the difference is that there is no interchangeable alternative for ethnicities such as Italian, Irish, Greek, and Jewish.  In those cases, there is one accepted name.  Please don't get offended.  I'm just making a suggestion. Plokmijnuhbygvtfcdxeszwaq (talk) 06:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You know it is hard to separate who one is from ones edits at times like these. as a person who is African Diaspora when someone suggest we go from Black to Negro, or from African American back to black, it is not a step in the right direction. And I am not sure why Africans have their identities in constant challenge. Wall street journal is an authentic monitor of African issues? Come on, it is beyond bias it is a total non-representative source. (but I do not need to go into that). Sometimes when you live these identities you understand the issues differently. And it shows the issues of so-called RS on Wikipedia. And we had this discussion on San people, RS was used to call them Bushmen. Now we can use our brains and know that bushmen is offensive. But Harvard and WP used it! Just like BBC uses BLACK AFRICANS, despite many grassroots org opposing it. At one stage Native Americans were called Red Indians-- It changed. Eskimo are now Innuit, Bushmen are now San and Khoisan. African Americans, unlike Jews and Irish have identity issues due to the Maafa, there is an ongoing struggle with identity and a re-connection to Africa. People are not in our communities going towards blackness, they are moving towards Africaness as the legacy of slavery is undone. And there is absolutely no bases to rename African American (original origin + Nationality) argued by Maulana Karenga, Alik Shahadah, Malcolm X, and Jesse Jackson all of this is mentioned in the article further ref see Gallup poll, and formal/in-formal names--Inayity (talk) 07:20, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Note that the Wall Street Journal was not commenting on African issues, it merely conducted a poll of black/African Americans so bias really is a non-issue (unless you wish to suggest that the random sample of black/African Americans polled were biased). I also think it's hard to say that the word black is offensive when most people aren't offended by it (after all, there is literally NO way to gauge what is offensive other than societal perceptions).  All of the people you listed are black/African American social justice advocates.  They don't necessarily represent mainstream views.  There is no reason to suggest "black American" is any more backwards than "white American." I stand by my case, but this isn't a very important issue to me, so I'm not going to be spending any more time on this.  Regards, Plokmijnuhbygvtfcdxeszwaq (talk) 07:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "African American" is indeed the common name for the actual African American ethnic group. However, this page was always about the latter native American ethnic group, not recent immigrants from elsewhere. "African American" is thus the appropriate page name for it. Middayexpress (talk) 06:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Who better to speak about African identity than those people? Why not use the Gallop poll? And you keep going on about White Americans, talk about Italian Americans and their connected to Italian culture if you need a comparison. And the issue is very important to me and I am not casually commenting using surface logic. A little deeper study will reveal why black weaker than African and why Holidays like Kwanzaa exist. --Inayity (talk) 07:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, there is no one oblivious enough to change the name of this article. Or have it stay changed at least. Wikipedia is currently under siege, I'm not sure if this is one of the articles that is targeted, but our core policies prevent a siege from being successful. Most of the time. Dave Dial (talk) 16:25, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: WP:Common name is policy, and the article should stay titled African American because of that policy. If anyone wants this article moved to a different name, then start a WP:Requested move discussion, and see how well that goes. Flyer22 (talk) 07:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The policy WP:COMMONNAME appears to dictate, that as while historically Negro (United Negro College Fund), Colored {National Associate of Colored People) and Black (National Alliance of Black School Educators) have all been used and were previously the common term used in reliable sources in regards to the subject, the most common name in modern usage for the subject of this article is African American. Therefore, I oppose a move, if this is what is being proposed/requested. That being said, to the editor who is proposing/requesting move may I suggest creation of redirect pages to this article per WP:POFRED.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:24, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Those organizations were all established by and for actual African Americans long before any significant immigration from elsewhere, so they're not particularly relevant. Middayexpress (talk) 06:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Recent immigrant status, or connection to ancestry to individuals forcibly brought to North America by the Atlantic Slave Trade, is not the primary focus of what being discussed in this section. Please keep the discussion about the definition of the subject to the appropriate section already established, as not to muddy the topic of conversation.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What is actually off-topic are those allusions to said historic organizations. It's also ironic since the government traditionally used different designations for Africa's various populations (e.g. "Hamitic" vs. "Negro" ). Middayexpress (talk) 17:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Note on changes
I changed sub-saharan African to black African in the definition. My definition conforms to the US Census source. I also added East African and North African to the types of Africans that may fall into African American (if they are Americans who identify and are perceived to be black; contrary to popular misconception, some (though not most) North Africans--such as Nubians--are identified as black).

Last time I made these changes, I was assailed with a series of straw person arguments. Please note that I realize "black" is not a biologically sound concept; it is a social concept. Please also note that I realize that the "original" African AMericans (the descendents of slaves) actually do constitute a biologially relevant population, even if the concept "black Africa" as a whole is nonsense biologically speaking. However (though the lede acknowledges that some do not consider those who are not descended from slaves to be AA) the social definition of AA=1)American of 2) black and 3) African descent. Thus, all Africans who identify/are perceived to be black (including Barack Obama, who did not descend from slaves) can be included as African Americans. Steeletrap (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I've removed the editorializing. Nubians aren't African American, regardless of whether they emigrated from Sudan or a few miles north in Egypt, just as Haratin emigrants from the Maghreb aren't African American. "African American" is first and foremost an actual ethnic group historically formed in the United States, with its own distinct history, culture, language, names, genealogy and genetics. This population traces the Africa-derived portion of its ancestry to West/Central Africa, not the entire continent. The term replaced earlier terms for the same American ethnic group and was meant to simply indicate that the enslaved and indentured servant ancestors of African Americans originally hailed from Africa, but that it was uncertain from which exact ethnic groups . In the real world, this is the common meaning of "African American" (e.g. ). However, this ethnic group's traditional ethnonym has also more recently been used by the census bureau as a non-standard racial label synonymous with "Negro". This is where the confusion stems from. The census bureau is well aware of this since the OMB subsequently devised a separate "African American" ethnic group entry on par with "Haitian, Nigerian, and so on". Why did it do that? Specifically because many African and Caribbean respondents didn't identify as "African American". Consequently, they figured that the "Black, African Am., or Negro" box wasn't aimed at them, so they instead responded by writing their own actual ethnicity under "Some Other Race". The bureau indicates that entire immigrant ethnic groups did this, not merely an invidual here or there. Had it been only a handful of people, the census bureau obviously wouldn't have felt it necessary to make an additional, separate "African American" ethnic group entry for actual African Americans . Middayexpress (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not editorializing. Your definition is editorializing by trying to make a social category a biological one. Your definition of AA--as West/Central African rather than black African--excludes Barack Obama and is out of the mainstream. The lede pays homage to your arguments by stating that some scholars argue for a restrictive definition of AA, as referring to descendents of slaves. Please stop inserting your OR.Steeletrap (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC) The two cited definitions for AA are Americans descending from 1) "any of the black racial groups of Africa" or those who 2) "are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa." Steeletrap (talk) 20:51, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It is indeed editorializing. You also already had the opportunity to participate in the lengthy discussion above on the first two sentences, but didn't. What you describe as my "OR" was actually wording suggested by someone else therein . Given this, I've again removed that belated editorializing. Middayexpress (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's re-open the straw vote. We need more comments, votes, and discussion. Steeletrap (talk) 21:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that's not the way it works; see WP:STRAW. Middayexpress (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Americans of African descent who are perceived and identify as black (such as Nubian Americans) are African American for all intents and purposes, even if they are of North African rather than sub-Saharan African descent. I recognize that "black" is a nonsense concept biologically, and also vague sociologically. But nonetheless, the definition of African American is grounded in the concept of blackness. As the cited sources indicate, the term means black+African+American. Sub-Saharan African is under-inclusive; it should be changed to the RS supported "American of black African descent." We can note in the lede that "black African" is not a biologically sound concept, but merely a social concept. But there is no excuse for OR and violating the plain language of RS; nor is there any excuse for a definition of AA that leaves out people who identify and are perceived to be AA. (I agree with User:Middayexpress that we should also prominently take note of the more biologically sensible definition of AA: namely, a person who descended partially or fully from African slaves in America.) Steeletrap (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I really think we're misunderstanding each other here. Your arguments regarding biology/genealogy are clearly sound. However, African American is a social rather than biological concept. The fact is that Nubian Americans are Africans, Americans, and are perceived as "black." Therefore, they are African Americans in the relevant (social) sense, even if they do not share common "racial" ancestry with most African Americans.

To clarify the issue further, perhaps you could add an additional source to the lede expanding on the (more genealogically rigorous) definition you favor. Clearly, the concept of "blackness" is intrinsically vague and nonsense biologically. You can note that in the lede. But the social definition (as black African) is the dominant one in the United States, irrespective of its biological merit. Steeletrap (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This was just explained above. "African American" as a broad synonym for "Black/Negro" is certainly not the traditional meaning of the term. "African American" first and foremost refers to an actual ethnic group of native Americans, whose members trace the Africa-derived portion of their ancestry to slaves or indentured servants from West/Central Africa. They share a common and distinct history, culture, language, names, genealogy and genetics, which were historically formed in the New World. Folks like Oprah Winfrey, not Nubians and other recent African immigrants to the United States. "African American" is Winfrey's ethnic group, while "Nubian" is a Nubian immigrant's ethnic group. The census bureau is well aware of all this, so it has now established a separate "African American" ethnic group write-in entry aimed at actual African Americans ("a combined race/ethnicity question would best reflect the self-reporting preferences of the diverse African-American, African, Afro-Caribbean in the United States[...] A combined-format question that includes a write in line for all race groups raises the rate of detailed ethnic reporting among respondents of African descent enormously[...] This is a finding in their favor, which may help address concerns among specific populations (e.g. people of Caribbean origin, or recent African immigrants) about being able to express an identity, which is different than African-American" ). Middayexpress (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I see this debate may have started again and an editor has placed edits in a closed straw poll, designed to establish consensus. There was a weak consensus for using the inclusive definition in option 2 above, and the next most supported option had an inclusive (but less so than option 6) definition. The next step, to determining if consensus has changed, is to open up a request for comment, to bring a wider range of editors in to help establish consensus.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Funny, I didn't even notice until just now that he/she slipped in some responses into the closed straw poll. It doesn't really matter, though, as the timestamps are set and that is not how the system works. At any rate, what is certain is that the census bureau itself is well aware that recent immigrants to the United States aren't African Americans nor do they in general regard themselves as such. For one thing, it estimates that over 75% of African Americans have multiracial ancestries. The bureau has therefore devised a separate write-in entry exclusively aimed at actual African Americans. It was previously claimed that that census bureau definition is that which defines the scope of this article (not quite true, as the census is ultimately based on self-designation; per the bureau, many ethnic groups choose instead Some Other Race), so this is key. In the real world, "African American" is similarly reserved for actual African Americans like Oprah Winfrey and Beyonce, not recent immigrants from elsewhere. Denying the reality of Winfrey and Beyonce's African American ethnic group – the one that unites them historically, culturally, linguistically, genealogically and genetically with other actual African Americans, who have a shared heritage and experience – to try and include recent and often completely unrelated immigrants only results in Winfrey and Beyonce no longer having any ethnic group at all. On the other hand, an immigrant and his or her descendants (like pretty much all other U.S. residents) will always have an ethnic group of his or her own, irrespective of any attempted social engineering. Middayexpress (talk) 06:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The exclusion of more recent African immigrants, from African Americans, and the insistence of it by some editors, and some reliable sources rings of nativism. Reliable sources have been found to support both exclusionary and inclusive definitions of the subject of this article, and consensus supported the usage of the inclusive definition. Therefore, I suggest that WP:DEADHORSE applies, unless a RFC is opened to show that consensus has changed.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * With respect, that is absurd. First, I didn't start this discussion, so there's no point in linking to that essay. Second, Option 2 had one more supporter than Option 6, which is hardly a consensus, nor do straw polls establish consensus in the first place per the actual consensus policy. Third, if I had intended to change the lede sentences, I would already have done so long ago given the foregoing. Fourth, as you yourself admitted, the "inclusive" definition was defined by the census bureau. Yet that same census bureau in its latest paper by its National Advisory Committee on Racial, Ethnic and Other Populations clearly recommends that "a combined race/ethnicity question would best reflect the self-reporting preferences of the diverse African-American, African, Afro-Caribbean in the United States[...] a combined-format question that includes a write in line for all race groups raises the rate of detailed ethnic reporting among respondents of African descent enormously[...] this is a finding in their favor, which may help address concerns among specific populations (e.g. people of Caribbean origin, or recent African immigrants) about being able to express an identity, which is different than African-American"" . Thus, the real world, immigrants themselves, and now the census bureau itself all acknowledge the reality of the actual African American ethnic group, separate from recent immigrants. It's difficult not to when the history, culture, language, genealogy and genetics of actual, multiracial African Americans are all different. I just wanted to set the record straight on this matter, for posterity. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * An interesting read, a reliable source, that is at times inclusive and exclusive.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That opinion piece dates from 2010, almost a half decade before the census paper above. Turns out that the author was also mistaken about the direction that the census bureau is actually moving in: after much lobbying by community advocacy groups, the bureau has chosen to respect immigrants' actual respective ethnicities instead of trying in vain to force false new identities upon them . Middayexpress (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Can a fourth image row be necessary?
I mean a fourth row can be helpful. I mean you're missing some other notable African-Americans. It can include Edward Brooke (first black US senator), Morgan Freeman (notable African-American actor), Sidney Poitier (first African-American actor to win Oscar), and Sojourner Truth (notable former African-American slave, major slave female model). --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Slight correction; Sidney Poitier is of Bahamian ancestry, not African American origin. Hattie McDaniel was actually the first African American to win an Oscar. Middayexpress (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I've found more than a few sources, including peer reviewed scholarly ones, that identify Sidney Poitier as an African American.Scoobydunk (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. However, Poitier is more often identified as Bahamian since the Bahamas is where he actually traces his origin to. McDaniel, on the other hand, is always identified as African American because that is what her actual ancestors were. That said, as one of the Afro-American peoples of the Americas, Poitier is nonetheless certainly closely related to McDaniel and other actual African Americans. Middayexpress (talk) 18:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * But overall a fourth image row is needed. I feel that perhaps Hattie McDaniel should be added so we have a fair amount of males and females. So Brooke, Freeman, Daniel, and Truth. Are they okay? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, that works fine. Middayexpress (talk) 20:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Are we going to go off sources, or our opinion?
Both sources cited in the first sentence of the article, which defines AA, say AA=black African. Yet for some reason we have ignored the RS and presented, in Wikipedia's voice, the claim that African Americans are only sub-saharan Africans. This definition not only defies RS, but sociological reality. Some North African ethnic groups are perceived to be 'black' in the US. Thus, they are African American. Nubian Americans--though certainly not Egyptians generally--are a good example of this.

The argument that AA only refers to descendants of slaves is quite reasonable. Indeed, it's more reasonable--from a genetic and cultural perspective--than the RS definition. (Obviously, from a biological perspective, the notion of a 'black race' is preposterous and even offensive.) But we must defer to RS definitions, which, by the way, reflect social convention more than the 'descendants of African slaves' definition does. ×The alternative definition should be given prominent emphasis in the lede. But it cannot be presented as accepted fact. Nor should the SSA definition be presented as fact. Steeletrap (talk) 10:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Picture
Owing to mixed racial ancestry, a minority of African-Americans look more Caucasian than black. (See passing for some historical context on this phenomenon.) Adding a picture of such an individual would, in my view, more effectively reflect the diversity of the community. This is a sensitive subject and I understand if editors would prefer not to have someone with 'white' features. So, while I am not going to add the picture myself, I am putting the idea out there. Rashida Jones, Mariah Carey, and Soledad O'Brien would all be good candidates for such a picture. Steeletrap (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not sure you are aware but people in Africa are not called black racial groups, they are called Africans. The vast majority of people are called African. In places visited by apartheid and heavy colonialism like South Africa BLACK is used for Africans (aka the natives), Indians and now Chinese. Black is not a race. As to your above remarks I have no idea what on Earth you could possible be trying to say with comments like "White Features" You seem to be pushing a certain fringe POV, the kind that disturbs the norms of the world to include the exceptional exception. How many people look like Rashida Jones calling themselves black? So it is a Weight issue. why dont you put a picture up there of Wentworth Miller to make a make your POV clear? um?--Inayity (talk) 15:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Um, yes. I am aware of that. There is no "black race" as a matter of biology. (But nor is there a 'sub-saharan african race.' All of these terms are pseudoscientific.) But there is a black race as a matter of cultural perception, in the United States.
 * The idea of a lighter skinned African American isn't fringe. Are you seriously claiming that? You are apparently unaware of the diversity of the African American community and the phenomenon of passing. For example, Soledad O'Brien is the host of CNN's "black in America" and has won various awards for work as an African American anchor from the NAACP. Steeletrap (talk) 17:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes we are aware, do you see the picture of Malcolm X, Ali and Obama, could they pass? or is light skin in there case a "White feature"? What you are discussing is so subjective to be lost in any serious discussion. Soledad represents 10% of African Americans who identify as such? Fringe is the idea that just because Rashida today wants to be black we should use her to "represent" some notion of racial diversity. When I was on the Jew I wanted Sammy Davis and could not even get one African in that photo. I digress. --Inayity (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * But people such as O'Brien are accepted as African American in the United States. Rashida Jones is the daughter of Quincy Jones, a black man, and she is free to identify as black. Civil rights hero Augustus F. Hawkins, who looks like an average white person, actually had a black parent and was a member of the Black Caucus. These people exist and always have existed in the African American community. Are they a small minority? Sure. But not as small as you think. And remember: we are talking about (maybe) 1 picture out of twenty, not adding all of these people to the article.
 * Moreover, light-skinned people of African descent encountered intense discrimination in the US, back when race/heritage was taken seriously as a biological concept rather than merely a proxy for physical appearance. See Plessy v Ferguson, where a 1/8 black person who physically appeared white was nonetheless subject to forcible segregation. Steeletrap (talk) 17:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC) From the article: "Plessy was born a free man and was an "octoroon" (of seven-eighths European descent and one-eighth African descent). However, under Louisiana law, he was classified as black, and thus required to sit in the "colored" car." Steeletrap (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I am Jewish and agree with you that a Jew of African descent should be included. Moreover, the number of photos on the Jew page should be expanded. I don't see how that's a 'fringe' issue any more than the one I raise above is. Steeletrap (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you raise it I will back you up. But The Jewish issue is not the same. Because Sammy and Lenny are Jews, they are also African. You are asking for people with more "White features" *your words not mine* to be included. BTW Light skin is not a White feature. But either way the images on this page for dark people, and light people. people with broad noses, and people with fine noses. Jones and her Black daddy are not needed to balance the image page as Jones is a oddity. Plus is she even notable?--Inayity (talk) 18:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Inayity, it was just a thought. I am sorry you are reacting so negatively to this. As Plessy indicates, lighter-skinned mixed people have long faced discrimination, and been considered part of the African American community. I'm headed off of this page for now. Recognizing the sensitivity of this issue, I won't edit in a picture of one of the above-mentioned people unilaterally. But I hope you reconsider your position. Steeletrap (talk) 18:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * African people are under a lot of stress. Excuse me if i come off off-key, but it is a battleground. I hope you reconsider Getting some Black folk up on that Jewish page. Cuz the All White crowd does not represent the religion. Imagine if we had Islam and only Arabs?--Inayity (talk) 19:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I support more racial diversity in the Jewish page. I will post to that talk page later. There also should be some Jews who are of Middle Eastern descent (e.g. Mizrahi Jews), rather than the mostly-European ("white", as you say) Ashkenazi Jews. In return, I hope that you will reconsider your views on whether 1) the definition should be sub-Saharan African rather than black African and 2) whether one lighter skinned person belongs in the pictures on the African American page. I'm not asking you to change your mind; just reconsider. Steeletrap (talk) 20:45, 23


 * Not that I support including pictures based on how "white" or "black" a person looks, but if such a thing were to be considered, then I'd rather it be about an African-American that did something groundbreaking or important like Dr. Charles Richard Drew. Not only is he of greater historical importance in the field of medicine but based on your concerns, can easily be mischaracterized as a Caucasian.Scoobydunk (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Chuck Berry picture vs Jazz picture
The Chuck Berry picture is currently listed in African_American. Should we move it to African_American and add a new picture for lit and academia? There doesn't seem to be enough room, but there is 2 pictures for the music section and none for lit and academia. Would it be good to either expand the music section or take out (or move to elsewhere in the article) one of the pictures? --Padenton (talk) 10:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

In literature and academia
The African_American section (under the African_American heading is currently mostly filled with inventors. Are inventors really appropriate for this section, or should this section be moved elsewhere?  I'm not really sure if cultural influence would be the best way to include inventors, also whether it would belong under the heading of 'In literature and academia'.  Maybe make a new top-level section for notable people of sorts.  The Asian American article has a top-level section for 'Notable contributions', maybe we could add a similar section, move the cultural influence section from 'contemporary issues' which also doesn't really feel like it fits.  I'd be happy to do the work, just wanted to run it by people.

That was a bit too train of thought...My proposal in summary: We move African_American from African_American to a new top-level section called 'Notable Contributions' or something along those lines. Split 'In literature and academia' into 2 sections, 'Literature' and 'Inventors' (or 'Science and Technology'). The new top-level section should have a section on 'cultural influences', where we can put subsections on music, culinary arts, maybe put literature in here as well. I'm sure there are other sections we could put under this heading also. Thoughts?--Padenton (talk) 10:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

HAPLOGROUP I (afroamerican ancestry)
Haplogroup I occurs only in Scandinavia, Balkans, north-central Europe. , I conclude that the content about genetics (in that field) is a mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.9.143.181 (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

23andme, Ancestry.com and other dna companies unreliable?
This information that I added to the article was deleted: The studies done by 23andme in these articles and referenced by Henry Louis Gates were done by Kasia Bryc, the same woman who is referenced in the following citation:
 * Studies done by companies such as 23andme, Ancestry.com, Family Tree DNA, AfricanDNA, and National Geographic reveal the overall ancestry of African Americans to be around 65-80% African (primarily West/Central African), 19-29% European (primarily British and Irish), and 0.6-2% Native American. The overwhelming majority of African Americans have some European ancestry, but according to DNA analysis African Americans only have a small amount of Native American ancestry.
 * According to an autosomal DNA study by Bryc et al. (2009), the overall ancestry of African Americans was formed through historic admixture between West/Central Africans (mainly females) and Europeans (mainly males). Consequently, African Americans have a genome-wide average of 78.1% West African ancestry and 18.5% European ancestry, with very large variation among individuals. The West African ancestral component in African Americans is also primarily affiliated with speakers from the non-Bantu branches of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) family..

I was told that as commercial testing companies, these are unreliable sources, but the source listed above (which is found in this page under Autosomal DNA) obtained its research through a commercial testing company---Affymetrix. These DNA analysis are not unreliable; they are all derived from commercial testing companies; 23andme is generally accurate in terms of DNA (not necessarly their health/genetic disease predisposition statements obviously). Kinfoll1993 (talk) 22:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Commercial testing companies are indeed generally not reliable. This is because their genetic research is not subject to vetting by professionals, unlike genetic studies published in peer-reviewed journals. This is also because these commercial testing firms have a potential monetary conflict of interest. Many of them, such as DNA Consultants, routinely publish nonsense (e.g. that Elvis is alive, based on DNA analysis ). At any rate, medical matters are subject to a high standard; please see WP:MEDRS. Middayexpress (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I have another source which was taken by Oxford University, and not published by commercial companies which I have just added. This is published online and was done for research rather than profit. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 00:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It's ok. Middayexpress (talk) 01:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Nice work guys. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Adding new category and slight infobox changes
I want to know what other editors think about the inclusion of other groups in the infobox, such as adding groups "British Americans (English Americans, Scottish Americans, Scots-Irish Americans, Welsh Americans)" to the related ethnic groups section, b/c the article and the citations given here (such as one study in the autosomal DNA section) points specifically to United Kingdom dna being the most prevalent European ancestry of Black Americans-and also the predominant groups that settled the South, where most Black Americans reside. The categories "American people of Yoruba descent" or "People of Yoruba descent" being added would reflect the information in the article about the specific African roots of AA. Also, would the category "People of European descent" (per the several autosomal studies and the statements of Gates and copious others) be appropriate, or would it be inappropriate b/c it would be exclusive of many recent African immigrants? I want to ask for consensus before making any such changes to the infobox or categories section. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The Yoruba category would be inappropriate because not all African Americans necessarily have Yoruba ancestry (though most apparently do), and because African Americans have multiple ancestries besides West/Central African ancestry, including Northwest European ancestry and some Native American ancestry. Regarding the infobox parameter, per Template:Infobox ethnic group, it is reserved for "list of other ethnic groups related to the group", such as "Other Iranian peoples" for Tajiks. Afro-American peoples of the Americas would thus go there. Middayexpress (talk) 21:49, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * You mean other ethnic groups related to the predominant ancestry? So, in other words, an English American or Irish American would not have "Scandinavian American" in the infobox with other related groups b/c their predominant ancestry is British Isles ancestry, even though they typically derive some ancestry from Scandinavians? Kinfoll1993 (talk) 22:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Besides Afro-American peoples of the Americas, other ethnic groups related to the group here would be groups like Foreign-born Afro-Americans, Sierra Leone Creole people and Americo-Liberians. Middayexpress (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but I am asking specifically for the reason why British American would not work if as we've stated above, the vast majority of AA have NW Europe ancestry, primarily from the UK. What I'm trying to discern is why specifically it wouldn't be a related group. In the infobox, we have Afro Latin Americans and Black Hispanic and Latino Americans as related groups. Perhaps I'm not asking clearly, but what I'm trying to get at is that, for example, these two groups I just mentioned (AfroLA & BlackH&LA) clearly have different ancestry from AA because they have Southern European ancestry (whereas AA have NW Europe ancestry) and a much higher amount of Native American ancestry than AA. Yet, these groups are listed as a related ethnic group because they have some of the same ancestry (West/Central African ancestry). So in the same way, wouldn't British American be a similar ethnic group because although AA have different ancestry (with the NA and West African components), AA still derive much of their ancestry from British (as seen by the predominant English, Northern Irish, and Scottish immigrants that settled the South). So AA are genetically related to British Americans. Therefore, why would it not be a related ethnic group? Is it specifically because the related groups have to share predominant (African in this case) ancestry?
 * Also, would "People of European descent" not work as a category for the same reason that you believe "People of Yoruba descent" won't work (that although most AA have European ancestry, not all do), so it would thus be inappropriate? Kinfoll1993 (talk) 19:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yoruba ancestry is already implicit within the "African American" parent categorization; European ancestry and Native American ancestry are as well now. Per Template:Infobox ethnic group, the infobox parameter is earmarked for the most closely related groups. For Tajiks, the example provided therein, this would be "other Iranian peoples". The corollary of that for African Americans is Afro-American peoples of the Americas, among whom are Afro-Latin Americans. Other ethnic groups most closely related to the group here would be Foreign-born Afro-Americans, Sierra Leone Creole people and Americo-Liberians. Middayexpress (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

New potential source
Take from it what you will about the changing demographics of African Americans.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

African American or Black?
This is the most appropriate place I could find to ask this but I know it's not the right place. I'm interested to know if Wikipedia should be using 'African American' or 'black' in articles to describe black people. African American seems unnecessarily PC in many cases. Where would I go to find out or discuss this? Thanks. Handpolk  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  16:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * In my opinion it will depend on context, sources, etc, and should not be either/or. African-american is more precise, black is shorter. Sometimes one is preferrable, sometimes they can be pretty much equally so. See for instance African-American history. It uses both, probably depending on source, topic, and preference of the editor who wrote the text. Trying to exclude one in favor of the other is unlikely to be beneficial. In many cases, it won´t matter very much (don´t call black people in Africa african-americans though). Use your best judgement, and discuss as necessary on whatever talkpage the choice of words becomes an issue. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. BLP's is where I typically see it. For instance Colin Kaepernick is described as having a 'white mother' and an 'African American father.' In places like that, it feels like 'black' would be better. Handpolk   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  16:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment:Funny how African American is considered excessively PC. I wonder which other ethnic groups are called a name based on an inaccurate color of their skin. What does black tell you about the person? Where do these blacks come from historically? Clearly the more accurate term, is African + Nationality. and more respectful --Inayity (talk) 06:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is an argument that a naming convention, WP:PLURAL, should cause us to choose the plural form. But many American ethnic groups currently have singular titles, and a 4:4 tie vote isn't much of a consensus to change all of these names to the plural. WP:NCET should also apply but it is not very prescriptive. (Read the first four sentences under WP:NCET). In March 2015 there was a long move discussion at Talk:Korean Americans that ended with a move to the plural form, but with only a handful of participants. In that discussion, the closer noted the presence of conflicting guidelines. See also Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) where User:Rjensen argued that the 'adjectival' form of the article title, as in Korean American, was the best. EdJohnston (talk) 22:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

African American → African Americans – Applying Talk:Korean Americans as a precedent and WP:PLURAL, we should be consistent with other pluralistic titles. I'm not proposing any other alternative titles here. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 21:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 23:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC) (EDIT: I'm not thrilled about proposing "Black Americans" as alternative because there are light-skinned African Americans. But vote for that if you want. --George Ho (talk) 21:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC))
 * Comment this seems to fit with article titles such as: Lists of African Americans, African Americans in the Revolutionary War, African Americans in France, Category:African Americans, African Americans in the United States Congress, Stereotypes of African Americans, History of the African Americans in Los Angeles, and many others. See search site:https://en.wikipedia.org/ "African Americans" GregKaye 05:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose it is the pluralistic articles that are inconsistent. Korean Americans are one of the few that should be renamed. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * the main article is Americans. Surely Black Americans would be logically be considered as a subset of the larger whole. GregKaye 19:59, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * In fact, Savvy, the Korean article was recently moved in an RM, where it was determined that the plural title is more in line with other similar articles and Wikipedia guidelines, notably WP:PLURAL. American sub-group articles are unique in using the singular, whereas most others use the plural. This uniqueness should be quashed. RGloucester  — ☎ 21:54, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Based on a quick look at Category:Ethnic groups in the United States, it seems to me that there are as many—if not more—ethnic groups named in the singular as in the plural. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:53, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Singular works quite well, is in keeping with common practice, and the example of Korean Americans is an outlier. Binksternet (talk) 06:43, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I almost forgot Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) (shortcut WP:NCET). It's kinda stuck in the middle, and I replaced African American with "British Chinese". --George Ho (talk) 06:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * in what way can it be considered that the "singular works quite well"? The article is not about a WP:SINGLE Black American.  The generally used designation for the group of people refers to "Black Americans".  GregKaye 20:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really about individuals; it's about the ethnicity, about being African American, it's a shared trait. The singular version works well for making a wikilink. If the title is made plural, then a piped link must be inserted for adjectival and other singular links. It's more convenient as a singular title. Binksternet (talk) 20:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose, propose "Black Americans" as more neutral – The present title is a loaded neologism, and hence I cannot support the proposed fix. "Black Americans" is more WP:CONCISE, more natural for a reader, and avoids politically-charged rhetoric. RGloucester  — ☎ 21:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: Noted, but look at its demographic counterpart White American. Almost all demonyns for countries are plural but its subgroups ethnicities are not. , I would love to rename it "Black American" (no "s") but too many people loath over the phrase "African American" as never forgetting as opposed to what a growing number of others are feeling today, a disconnection from Africa for hundreds of years and hence no longer African but just black, or more precisely a Black American with its distinctive culture. However, African American should apply to how "European American" is being used; people who can actually prove certainty. (Example: So-and-so was born in Benin and is now a citizen of the United States; he is a African American and more specifically, a Beninese American.) However, we don't live in a world were simplicity (without biases) is always possible... Thoughts? Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * ty for your thoughtful reply. As I see it the descriptions "African" and "Black" are quite extreme.  Both are adjectives.  The first relates to a group of related ethnic origins within a continent that has retained (with potential influence of a generally higher rate of population growth in relation to economic growth) a relatively high proportion of of people whose cultural roots are embedded in Africa.  The second relates to nothing more than a skin pigmentation and can equally (or better) apply to Aboriginal Australians (pluralised), Fijians (pluralised) and Jamaicans (pluralised) etc.  Ethnic origins can also be related to the content of articles such as Koreans whose topic relates to an ethnic origin and which is still pluralised.
 * On a linguistic basis my main problem with the current title is based on the argument that it is nonsensical. Black American what?  "Black" is an adjective while the word "American" can either be used as an adjective or as a noun used to designate a single person of African origin or culture.  (In parallel with Wikipedia usage of terminologies such as "disambiguation" - in places in which anyone else might have used navigation - this is another manifestation of Planet Wikipedia titling).  No one else presents single titles such as "Black American".  With exception of dictionary definitions of "Black American" (noting that WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary) other sources either present "Black American xxxx" or they present "Black Americans".  I don't think that it is credible to present adjectives as titles outside a dictionary context.  This is something that only Wikipedia does.  GregKaye 07:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose – Singular is more standard. Soupforone (talk) 02:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. See WP:PLURAL, which specifies that the plural should be used. These "so and so" American articles are outliers that must be remedied. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. Please see the links above to WP:NCET and Category:Ethnic groups in the United States. Soupforone (talk) 02:23, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's just the point. The American groups are outliers, and should be made like all other ethnic groups. That's what WP:PLURAL says, and more importantly, WP:CONSISTENCY says. WP:NCET just says that either is acceptable. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:53, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. This is an article on a population group, and WP:PLURAL gives that as one of the specific cases that should be pluralized. The intro to the article even refers to "African Americans" rather than "African American".--Cúchullain t/ c 21:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, per WP:CONSISTENCY, and per WP:PLURAL. Red Slash 23:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Clear cut case of when WP:PLURAL should be applied. All of the other American ethnic group articles should be moved, too. Jenks24 (talk) 11:24, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

African-Americans in the American Revolution: Crispus Attucks
There should be some mention when referring to the participation of African-Americans in the American Revolution, that the first patriot to give his life, was a black man--Crispus Attucks.

Busslynns (talk) 22:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Teri L Malone


 * The section of the article titled "Slavery era" not only mentions Attucks but includes his portrait as well. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 05:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Way too many thumbs in the infobox
The pictures in the infobox needs to be cut down by at least half. Why in the World are there 35 pictures there? If we are going to have 5 pictures per row, I suggest we have at most 4 rows. My preference is this: Dave Dial (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Not so hot on Ben Carson there. How about we replace Carson with Edward Brooke, the first African-American elected to the U.S. senate. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with that, although I was trying to mix the first wave of civil rights leaders with the second, and then add in the more modern people. I thought Carson might represent a minority segment, although that can be represented by Clarence Thomas and Condoleezza Rice. Dave Dial (talk) 23:24, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think Rice is better than Thomas. And Brooke has left a mark of African American milestones. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Small typo
"Some of these were. Slavery, reconstruction, development of the African-American community, participation in the great military conflicts of the United States, racial segregation, and the Civil Rights Movement."

There should be no colon after "were". Could someone fix this?

You mean there should be *a* colon after "were", correct? I'm on it, if still pertinent. ==Mic Morose

Can someone also change all instances of African slaves to enslaved Africans? There is a connotation there. Slavery was a condition forced upon them, not a job occupation.

Book for further reading
*

Spanish pronunciation
The very last paragraph expands on pronunciation in Spanish and Portuguese: "In Latin America, negro, which translates as black is the term generally used to refer and describe black people and, similarly to mulatto, it is not considered offensive at all in these regions. However, it is pronounced differently, with the e (a mid front unrounded vowel in American Spanish: [ˈneɣɾo], and a close-mid front unrounded vowel in Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈneɡɾu]) being closer to a sound that it is intermediate between phonemes found in English words such as pay and egg (in Spanish) or day, city and item (in Portuguese)." It fails to mention, however, that in Spanish the -g- is also pronounced differently, although this is indirectly indicated in the IPA rendering ([ˈne'ɣɾo]).

"Black" and "Black American" vs. "African American" at the Viola Davis article
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Viola Davis; also see the section started immediately below that. Flyer22 (talk) 13:07, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Unnecessarily crowding the infobox
As seen here and here, I reverted X4n6 twice, and X4n6 reverted me twice, with regard to images being added to the infobox. In my opinion, X4n6 has cluttered the infobox with a lot of unnecessary images. X4n6 has cited WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE for doing so. WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE does not justify such an edit in the least. Flyer22 (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User talk:Flyer22 engaged in a lengthy, nonsensical "debate" on the Viola Davis talk. Then when I refused to continue feeding the troll there - and said as much - she attempt to retaliate by hounding my edits on this article here and here and here. As for WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE, it speaks for itself and needs no defense from me.X4n6 (talk) 14:33, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We are not having all those images in the infobox. Before you even added the amount to 60, there was discussion to lower the amount from 35 to 20. We definitely are not having 60 freaking pictures there. If one wants to exchange one of the current images with a different person, use Talk page from now on. Dave Dial (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm starting to think I should tune out anything X4n6 states. Flyer22 (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, take note that I made this edit before reverting X4n6 at the Viola Davis article; both articles are on my WP:Watchlist. And my prior edit history at the African American article is seen here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to intervene in your argument, but I have to point something. If these additional people are notable enough for an infobox, shouldn't they also be mentioned in the text sections? Dimadick (talk) 19:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

second-class citizens
"Believed to be inferior to white people, they were treated as second-class citizens." This is a lazy and meaningless sentence. Black slaves were not citizens of any class. They were legally slaves and were treated as slaves. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 05:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Deleted views By Karenga and Shahadah
''Some such as Maulana Karenga and Owen Alik Shahadah argue African-American is more appropriate, because it accurately articulates geography and historical origin. Thus linking a people to a continent as opposed to an abstract color'' Both Karenga and Shahadah (who are contemporaries and associates) hold this opinion. The statement is important to this article.--Inayity (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A discussion thread about the reliability and notability of Shahadah and his pages is taking place at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, please comment there so we can get a final consensus. Rupert Loup (talk) 12:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

African-American architects
I restored this article, got rid of the most obvious copyright infringement and began to fix the references. This article needs more work and I'd welcome any help to get it in Wikipedia shape. I think there is much that can be preserved here but the overly promotional language has to go. Liz Read! Talk! 13:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

"Afro-American"
I know "Afro-American" (vs. "African-American") has largely fallen out of use; I wanted to cite for it having been current as recently as the mid-1980s, but I don't see an appropriate place in the article to place such a footnote. Anyway, if someone sees a place to put it, that's the usage by Cornel West throughout his essay "The Paradox of Afro-American Rebellion", p.44-58 in The 60s Without Apology (1985, edited by Sohnya Sayres, Anders Stephanson, Stanley Aronowitz, Fredric Jameson), University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 0-8166-1337-0. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 19:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC: What is proper number of photos for the template in this article?
Should the template contain more or less photos? X4n6 (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Same or More: Images feel right in this article. Called here by the bot. I have no involvement in this article to date. I really like the template with the twenty photographs. Very good graphic design, makes a good visual point about the ubiquity and diversity of achievements of African Americans, and is quite powerful in that regard, in a very good way, in my opinion. SageRad (talk) 00:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - The twenty seems representative/adequate. Soupforone (talk) 02:07, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Same - most of the most influential African Americans are pictured; it's good for the article, but don't add too many more.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 02:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - Since this RfC is so poorly worded, this is what the basis of disagreement is about. Also, since the current editors who have weighed in already, the number of images in the infobox has been 20. So 'Same' equals 20.
 * For a stable period of time(years), the infobox had 12 images.
 * Then some editor more than doubled the number to 25 earlier this year(2015), and it stayed that way until recently.
 * Then in late August 2015, an editor(Mr.Bob.298) increased the number to 35 images.
 * Despite some discussion to decrease the size, the number stayed at 35 until September 28, 2015. When the editor who started this RfC(X4n6) increased the number of images to 60.
 * Relevant previous discussions are here and here.
 * Also, please note that White Americans have 0 people in the infobox and Hispanic and Latino Americans have 12. There is no way this article should have more than 20 images in the infobox. Dave Dial (talk) 02:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Same - I think the article has just the right amount of pictures, too many might be overwhelming.  Comatmebro  User talk:Comatmebro 22:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A dozen is sufficient. Any more than that, and it's just a big visual blur. And don't include people who don't primarily identify as African-American; e.g., do not add Mariah Carey and other multi-ethnic people to make a point.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:15, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * One Find one representative image. We're not picking the top ten or twenty or a hundred most favorited individuals here. The images are so tiny we can't see the distinguishing features of anyone. --Pete (talk) 03:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Current amount or less; more would be extremely cluttered. One can almost not appreciate all images currently displayed. FoCuS contribs ;  talk to me!  02:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 25 or less summoned by bot A consideration is that when the picture box intrudes into the text, it becomes excessive. I endorse a modified version of SMcCandlish's point, namely 'don't include people who don't clearly identify as African-American' . There seems a reasonable mix at present between 'public figures', sport, entertainment, culture. Long-term notability could perhaps be a criterion, over current fame (no Paul Robeson? No notable pre-rock+roll musicians?). I've no idea how you choose, how do you weigh Rosa Parks against a current huge star? What was done on the Black British page was to create a 'composite picture' with names listed below. It has resulted in a better image, if not necessarily a better 'sample'. To do that of course you have to settle on a 'fixed group', since it is harder to change. Pincrete (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)