Talk:Afro-Brazilians/Archive 1

Related Ethnic Groups
Why is there a related ethnic groups section in the first place? Isn't it pretty narrow? Afro Brazilians are related to all people of African origin in the Americas, for example, African Americans, being that they all mainly came from the same regions and ethnic groups in Africa. Being the two largest Black groups in the Americas, there would be genetic relation. It seems actually to be grouped not by the common African heritage, but by their relations to European colonization. Example, Afro-Brazilians based on that page are only related to other Black groups in Latin America, whereas Black Americans are only related to groups of African Americans who settled in Africa? There should probably be a link under related ethnic groups that leads to another page that shows a list of all "Afro-" groups in the Americas.

Scatered info
the information about african brazilians are diveded into little pieces around wikipedia..

i think bring all together in one plase is a good think.

i started this article after i tried to find information about african brazilian.. and i have to go in various pages of many diferent subjects

[user:mateuszica]

I agree. The material is fine but it should be in Afro-Latin American. Please cast your vote at Articles for deletion/Afro-Brazilian, SqueakBox 15:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

expand
famous afro brazilians, Origins , Comunnities, Culture

origins
The Africans, brought to brasil belonged to two major groups : the sudan people and the bantu people. The first, generaly were of high stature and more elaborated culture, were send in large scale to bahia. the bantus, natives from angola and Mozambique , were send in large scale to rio de janeiro , minas gerais, and northeast zona da mata.

Os negros, trazidos para o Brasil pertenciam a dois grandes grupos: os sudaneses e os bantos. Os primeiros, geralmente altos e de cultura mais elaborada, foram sobretudo para a Bahia. Os bantos, originários de Angola e Moçambique, predominaram na zona da mata nordestina, no Rio de Janeiro e em Minas Gerais.

add religion Candomblé Ketu

Scope of article
From the current revision of the article:


 * Afro-Brazilian is the term used to racially categorise Brazilian citizens of some or full Black African origin.

Where/by whom is that term used as such? In Brazil, as far as I know, "Afro-Brasileiro" is mostly used as an adjective relating to Brazilian cultural manifestations with African roots (e.g. Candomblé, Capoeira, etc), not as a racial term used to describe black people -- the word "negro" being the word currently en vogue, seen as politically correct and probably most commonly used for that.

Of course, English Wikipedia is concerned with the English meaning and usage of words, and therefore this article should contain information related to what "Afro-Brazilian" means and is used for in English; but I also don't see this expression used in English as meaning "Black Brazilian". If in fact it is not, then the article should be rewritten in order to remove that.

And, of course, editors should keep in mind that notions of race in Brazil are considerably different from those in English-speaking North America (and probably from those in most other English-speaking cultures). I say that because someone that an USer may consider black (or "Afro-Brazilian") may not at all be considered so in Brazil. I suspect that the inclusion of such names as Zeca Pagodinho in the article may be a symptom of that. What is said in the sentence above, that the term is used in regards to individuals of "some or full" black ancestry, if taken literally would mean that most Brazilians would be considered "Afro-Brazilians", when in fact in most of the cases the fraction of black African ancestry would be relatively fairly small, and often not visually noticeable. --Cotoco 19:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. What do you propose we do about it? SqueakBox 01:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia has Sonia Braga listed as Afro Brazilian as well even though most Brazilians and I am pretty sure most people in general if they saw her would not consider her to be black

First sentence of this article: ''' "Afro-Brazilian or African Brazilian is the term used to racially categorise Brazilian citizens of some or full Black African origin, yet it is rarely used in Brazil." ' - Obvious question, "Well then, who the heck is'' it used by?" -- Writtenonsand 21:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

By Brazilians trying to make Brazilian reality fit into North-American categories, to write Wikipedia articles... Ninguém (talk) 11:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Really, Afro-Brazilian is referent only to black brazilians in reality, pardos are a racial classification of its own,they are multiracial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CEBR (talk • contribs) 21:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Pelé
His absence from this article was glaring, SqueakBox 00:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

False information! Delete!
This article needs to be deleted. I don't care for the way inwhich Amercians on wiki make up terms, or instruct others on how their culture functions, or how it should function. According to this so called bias, fee encyclopedia one would think every country in the world is a racist as the, modern utopia of the west(USA). This articles need to be deleted or changed!

--Margrave1206 21:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Branco, an Afro-Brazilian?
Guess that is inaccurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.58.223.250 (talk) 02:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

"Pardo" is an Brazilian mestizo (mestiço). White x Amerindian, Black x White, etc. All pardos don't a black ancestry. Brazlian black population is 11 million of persons. This article don't have a neutral point of view. --201.19.167.208 19:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You're completely right, pardos are multiracial (mestizo, mestiço), they aren't afro-brazilian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CEBR (talk • contribs) 21:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The real number of Afro-Brazilians
According to the 2000 IBGE census, 6.2% of Brazilians indentified themselves as Blacks. Another 38.4% as Mulato (mixed White and Black or Multiracial).

This census gives the number of 75 million Afro-Brazilians or 45% of Brazil's population.

Another fact is that a genetical resource concluded that close to 77 million Brazilians have 90% or more of their genes of African origin, which also confirms the 45% Afro-Brazilians.

86% of Brazilians have 10% or more of their genes of African origin.

The article is writen in Portuguese

User:João Felipe C.S is trying to dimish the real number of Black Brazilians. I reverted him for that.Opinoso 21:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

According to 2000 census, had in Brazil 6,2% of Afro-descendants (Another 38.4% as Mulato (mixed White and Black). The genetics argument doesn’t prove anything. Famous Brazilian afro-descendents have European ancestry (such as Daiane dos Santos, 40% European) Felipe C.S ( talk ) 22:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Having European ancestry does not erase a person's African ancestry.

A half Black half White person keeps being African-descendant. Barack Obama is half White is is still considerated Black by most Americans.
 * Who cares about Americans ?

Halle Berry is half white and is considerated African-American.

If you have any amount of African ancestry, you are an Afro-Brazilian, no matter how blond you are.

45% of Brazilians consider themselves to be Afro-Brazilians. Another 40% has at least 10% of African genes.

Genetical resources DO say about a population ethnic origin and is as important as the census.

You have no argument to diminish the real size of the Afro-Brazilian population. What you do is racism against a Brazilian ethnic group.

You should be banned from Wikipedia. Opinoso 22:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Opinoso, you don't understand? 90% of the population can have African genes, but this don't define the ethnic group. Genetic researches are interesting, but they are very recent and far from being an established set of criteria to base demographic information on. Please, we go to use the data of IBGE, that is most trustworthy and most used. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 23:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

First, Barck Obama and Halle Berry woundn't be consider black in Brazil, but "mulatos". We don't have the ridiculous "one drop rule" that americans use, we acknowledge the black AND white ancestry of person - just because your part black it doesn't mean you have to forget your white ancestry.

Second, some people here are confunding the term "pardo" with "mulato". "Pardo" is someone of mixed-race ancestry that has a skintone darker than white, but clearer than black. A pardo could be a "mulato" (black + white), but could be a "caboclo" too (native-brazilian + white, or native-brazilian + black). So, you can´t say that 45% of the brazilian population is "black", adding the number of "pardos" 38,4%) to the blacks (6,2%). There is no way to tell how much of the pardos are mulatos - and in Brazil a mulato is not considered black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.32.46.136 (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

You're completely right, the pardo group is a multiracial group, not an afro-brazilian group. (by CEBR)


 * This is a not a place for personal opinions. The government officially counts Pardos as Afro-Brazilians, you like it or not. Opinoso (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they don't, see: http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/noticias/0,,OI4003156-EI306,00-Negro+e+uma+construcao+social+afirma+especialista+do+IBGE.html

The IBGE considers "Negro" a social construction, not an ethnic/racial classification, ethnic/racial classifications are "Black" and "Pardo" and these are separate classifications. CEBR (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC).

Those statistics are bullshit 80% of brazilians do not have black blood LOL, 49% of brazilians which are 90% mulatos dont considers "Black". They say either mulatto or Latino. But nearly never black the statistics need to edited here. My brazilian family is mostly mulatto i have never heard any of them say they are black or "Coloured". Even the Coloured ppl in South Africa felt differente from the Pure blacks in SA. Brazilians dont have the one drop rule like America does nor is the black community as racially No before the black nationalists who most likely never been to brazil and trying to make brazil as its african enclave of South America. Im not making it out to be an Enclave for Europe.

Filipe. It is extremely important to note that at the root of Afro-Brizilianism is European rape. The high percentage African influence in Brazil is not the result of harmonious co-habitation, but the result of systemic racism implemented by the Portuguese during slavery. An attempt to minimize this reality by urging this major portion of the population to deny it's African descent is ignorant and the saddest form of self hate.

Suggested Compromise
editprotected

This would incorporate both figures, allowing the reader to judge for himself what he considers to be an afro-Brazilian. This recognizes Brazil's mixed heritage and is reflective of statements already in the article.--Dali-Llama 00:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Opinoso 16:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 16:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 05:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

In the related ethnic groups section, it should just simply state Africans, Europeans, Arabs and Natives, rather than all these dozen here.

Salsa
On 10 January 2008 User:86.133.235.223 added Salsa to the listing of Afro-Brazilian Music Genres. I've removed this. Per the article Salsa: '' "Salsa is essentially Cuban in stylistic origin, though it is also a hybrid of Puerto Rican and other Latin styles mixed with pop, jazz, rock, and R&B". '' AFAIK, there is nothing characteristically Brazilian about Salsa. If we want to start including all musical styles that are popular with some people in the Afro-Brazilian community, then we'll have to include Jazz, European Classical, and indeed every musical genre. On the other hand, I am willing to be convinced that Salsa should be included in this article. Discussion? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 11:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't. Salsa is not brazilian (or "afro-brazilian" for that matter) and is not even popular here in Brazil. There isno place for Salsa here.

Too many images
IMHO, article now has way too many images. ("Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files" - Not.) Let's remove most of these. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 18:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MargarethMenezes.jpg
Image:MargarethMenezes.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ronaldinho
On 21 March 2008, 68.158.10.229 removed Ronaldinho from this article. Should he be listed here or not? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 08:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course, since he is a Black Brazilian. Opinoso (talk) 02:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Nilo Peçanha
In the Brazilian Wikipedia, Nilo Peçanha is described as the first (I would say the only) Brazilian mulatto President. During all his political career, he was accused of being a mulatto. The most famous are the accusation written in the letter scandal of Marechal Hermes government. May he was a dark Portuguese, but I prefer to believe that he like the Barão de Cotegipe, someone that could be recognized as a mulatto, but who hide his African ancestors. By the way, the Barão de Cotegipe was AGAINST slave emancipation. Also, who proved that Machado de Assis had African ancestors? --Quissamã (talk) 23:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, there is no such a thing as the "Brazilian Wikipedia"... but the Portuguese Wikipedia, Portuguese here meaning the Portuguese language.The Ogre (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

See Tribuna de Petrópolis's article where Nilo Peçanha is described as "mestiço do Morro do Coco, criado como ele mesmo dizia com pão dormido e paçoca, filho do Sebastião da Padaria". --Quissamã (talk) 00:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There are NO sources to say Peçanha had any African ancestry. At that time, perhaps, his opponents said that Peçanha was a mulato only to denigrate him (a racist vision, of course). But, as it's only an assumption and this is an encyclopedia, we should not put Peçanha in article Afro-Brazilian. For Machado de Assis, anyone smarter knows that Machado de Assis was a son of a Mulatto father with a Portuguese mother. Just read his  biography. By the way, many other Brazilian presidents had some African ancestry, not only Peçanha, but even Fernando Henrique Cardoso, who already said to media he had a mulato great-grandmother, even though he looks as Caucasian as any Portuguese. You cannot base ancestry in "apparence"; not in Brazil. Lula probably has some. Maybe only presidents like Ernesto Geisel or Costa e Silva did not, because they were the sons of immigrants. Most Brazilians whose family are in Brazil for over 4 generations have African ancestry, despite their physical apparence. Opinoso (talk) 12:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not really, FHC has a much darker skin tone than any portuguese, even the portuguese from the south. FHC is a "pardo" tending more to white than to black, but anyone looking at him can see that he is not 100% caucasian. Even Lula looks more caucasian than him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.32.46.136 (talk • contribs)
 * I believe you are smarter than the guy wrote the topic Nilo Peçanha in the Brazilian Wikipedia... --Quissamã (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I made some alterations in and questioned the topic Nilo Peçanha in the Portuguese Wikipedia. Nilo Peçanha was certainly as dark as Machado de Assis, or Paulo Leminski or Colin Powell, and was born in a very poor family whose father was a backer in the poorest neighborhood of Campos dos Goytacazes. I am also amazed because Nilo Peçanha was always called a mulatto (by his political adversaries), but Machado de Assis never was (he had no political adversaries, but had some artistic arguments through his life, certainly). You said "one cannot base ancestry in apparence; not in Brazil". That is true, but just for white people who have a remote and unknown African ascentry. In Brasil, if one is dark-skinned, it almost sure that he or she has an African or Native ascentry, although I have known some Portuguese in Portugal who were as dark as Machado de Assis (may moorish influences). I agree we need some historical source about Nilo Peçanha based in reliable research. Maybe the Portuguese Wikipedia will provide us this source. --Quissamã (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You cannot say Peçanha was a mulato based on black-and-white pictures. He wouldn't be out of place in Portugal. So what he was poor? Only Blacks in Brazil are/were poors? Please, learn about Brazil's History. Machado de Assis was never called a mulatto? Please, read his biography. He was often discrimineted for being "POBRE, MULATO, EPILÉTICO, GAGO E TINHA A LETRA HORRÍVEL". "Machado de Assis era mulato e, por isso, era muito discriminado. E por ser pobre, não tinha condições de estudar em cursos regulares, pois precisava trabalhar para ajudar o pai e a madrasta a sustentarem a casa...". Do you really know who Machado de Assis was? I guess you don't. Nilo Peçanha could be part Jew, or even totally Jew (many of them came from Portugal to Brazil in the beggining of the colonization). Could be a darker skinned Portuguese-descendant, or maybe a mulatto. Who knows? We will never know it. Peçanha looks the same way Pedro I of Brazil, who was part of a royal family and, of course, did not have any African ancestry. Take a look at John VI of Portugal. Mulatoes? No! Only different types of Europeans. Opinoso (talk) 17:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

"Please, learn about Brazil's History. For Machado de Assis, anyone smarter knows that {...}. Just read his biography."
 * There is no need to desqualify someone this way in a discussion. It looks bossy and priggish. Thanks to this discussion, I made alterations in the Portuguese Wikipedia adding a "talvez" about Nilo Peçanha being a mulatto. I hope the original writer come with realiabe sources. By the way, when you say that "Nilo Peçanha could be part Jew" you make the same mistake, supposing that Iberian (or Sephardi) Jews looked different from other people in Portugal or Spain. --Quissamã (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course Portuguese Jews looked kind different from people from Portugal and Spain, since Jews come from the Middle-East, and Iberians are an European population. Opinoso (talk) 20:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can take you information for sure since you do not cite a reliable source. I knew many Sephardi Jews from Syria and Egypt. They do not like different from Portuguese or Spanish, but that is just my feeling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quissamã (talk • contribs) 22:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Jews are not the same as Portuguese because they have a very distant origin, even though both are Mediterranic peoples, they are not the same. Opinoso (talk) 05:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Five sources about Nilo Peçanha as a mulatto! That is enough. Don´t change the text just because the sources do not agree with your prejudices. --Quissamã (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop attacking me, or I will have to ask someone to block you. Assume good-faith, please. And, please, write in proper English next time. "Brazilian white" does not exist. The correct form is "White Brazilian". Also, Brazilian (nationality) is written Brazilian, not "brazilian". If you do not have even a basic English knowledge, you should not write in the English Wikipedia. Nobody here has time to correct your bad English. Opinoso (talk) 15:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like you ask someone to block me. Attention will be given to your work and behavior, my "branquecéfalo friend". I don't need to ask for help to block you in Wikepedia, you commit intellectual suicide every time you made an intervention.

--Quissamã (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Who is this Quissamã? The one who claimed to be a "scientist" and then asked me about Machado de Assis???

Please, assume good-faith. another personal attack and I'll have to ask some administrator to watch you. Sorry, but I could not understand well what you write, because of your not proper English. Try in Portuguese next time.

By the way, you do not need to claim a president your own to encrease your self esteem. Blacks do not need that. Prefer to talk about the Black Brazilian arts, music, parties, religions...you do not need a president your own to feel better! If you need any help to encrease your self esteem, I can show you some list of sites and books to encrease it. But first, DO NOT read Machado de Assis (ever heard about him?), because his books are not really nice to people with problems of low self esteem. Buy books that help people with low self esteem and then read some Machado. Good luck!! Opinoso (talk) 04:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Afro-Brazilian and Afro-Brazilian Culture
I prefer to keep those articles apart. Afro-Brazilian is to describe people, who they are, how many they are, how they live, their origins, genetics.

Afro-Brazilian Culture is about ... culture: music, arts, literature.

There is a lot of things to write in both articles. To join them is to stimulate a very extensive article in the near future.

My own examples:


 * I´ve met Brazilian Nikkeys who are Umbanda believers. They are involved with the Afro-Brazilian Culture, but they are not Afro-Brazilians.


 * I´ve also met Brazilians of African descent who are pure Catholics and always listen classical European music. They are culturally akin to Europeans.

Everyone in Brazil know similar cases.

--Quissamã (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning the article
This article is full of unsourced information since a long time ago (with some personal opinions). Since nobody arrived with sources, I removed the unsourced stuff and personal opinions. We need to work in this article, because it looks terrible and it lacks informations. Opinoso (talk) 18:00, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Low cost of slave labour
The article states that the low cost of slave-based sugar production in Brazil was a concern to British opponents of Brazilian slavery. It does not seem probable. Slave labour is, for starts, extremely expensive. While slave labourers are not paid wages, they need to be fed and sheltered. Besides, as slaves are to be expected to flee or revolt, costs of supervision are much higher than in a wage-labour system; foremen need to be in a much bigger number, and to be well paid, as their job is actually dangerous. Plus, slaves need to be either bought or raisen; the costs of the latter are, usually, prohibitively high; and the costs of the former tend to become so with the decrease of the populations being systematically raided for enslavement. So the statement seems quite dubious; I have tagged it for sources. Ninguém (talk) 11:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ronaldo
Isn't Ronaldo an Afro-Brazilian, along with Roberto Carlos, all appear to have some African ancestry. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

What does Schwartzmann really say?
In the section "Origins", this article now says:

"According to the sociologist Simon Schwartzman the official figures about the size of the black population in Brazil are criticized because "(the official figures) would hide the true size of the black population in Brazil, which if defined in a similar way to what happens in the United States would reach at least 50% of the population; and they would also not measure the true size of the Amerindian population." According to Schwartzman in Brazilian society people can easily pass from a race to another. This would be the result of a prejudice of class, in which people move from one race to another as they enrich."

The source is a paper by Prof. Simon Schwartzman, ex-chairman of the IBGE. Here is the whole original paragraph:

''Existe muita insatisfação com estas categorias. Uma boa parte da população não se identifica e não gosta de alguns destes termos, como veremos abaixo. Os resultados que se encontram são também criticados. Tipicamente, as pesquisas mais recentes encontram cerca de 5% de pretos, 50% de brancos, e 45% de pardos, com uma pequena percentagem nas categorias de "amarelos" (orientais) e indígenas (a PNAD 1997, que cobre todo o país exceto a região rural da Amazônia, encontrou 54.4% de brancos, 5.2% de pretos, 39.9% de pardos, 0,4% de amarelos e 0,1% de indígenas). Estes números, segundo alguns críticos, ocultariam o verdadeiro tamanho da população negra no Brasil, que, se definida de forma análoga ao que ocorre nos Estados Unidos, chegaria a pelo menos 50% da população; e também deixaria de medir o verdadeiro tamanho da população indígena.''

Here is a translation:

''There is much dissatisfaction with those categories [the traditional ternary division used by the IBGE, "branco/pardo/preto" (note by Ninguém)]. An important part of the population does not like and identify with those terms, as we are going to see below. The results found are also under criticism. Typically, the more recent researchs find 5% "pretos", 50% "brancos", and 45% "pardos", with a small percent under the categories of "amarelos" (Asian) and "índigenas" (the 1997 PNAD, covering all the country except the rural region of the Amazonic area, found 54.4% of "brancos", 5.2% of "pretos", 39.9% of "pardos", 0.4% of "amarelos" and 0.1% of "indígenas"). These figures, according to some critiques, would hide the true size of the Black population in Brazil, which, if defined in the same way as in the United States, would reach at least 50% of the population; and it would also fail to measure the true size of the "indígena" population.''

(I have refrained from translating the IBGE categories, because it is necessary here to stress that the text is confronting two different "racial" systems: the American White/non-White (with non-White implying "Black", even when used towards "Caucasian" people like Arabs) and the Brazilian branco/pardo/preto. The literal translations are, of course, branco->white, pardo->brown, preto->black, amarelo->yellow, and indígena->indian.)

Now to the text proposed as a source.

First, Schwartzman is by no means endorsing the position of those (unnamed) critiques ("críticos"). He is here merely reporting, as he is reporting the dissatisfaction of an important part of the population with IBGE's ternary classification.

In this paragraph, he doesn't even explain this dissatisfaction; if this lack is amalgamated with what comes after, about classifying people "in the same way as in the United States", the impression that most of this dissatisfaction tends to demand the adoption of a White/Black system with the suppression of the intermediate "parda" category. This is far from true; the data he is discussing show the dissatisfaction goes in different ways, with certainly a part of the Black (in the American sence) population preferring the label "negro" as a generic term for "pardo/preto", but other significant part preferring terms (especially "moreno") that tend to erase the "branca/parda" boundary (in fact, the "standard" usage of "moreno" translates into English as "White person of dark hair and/or olive complexion).

Then he also reports some criticism of the results. If the American system was used, the Black population would be at least 50% of the Brazilian population. But as he is also reminding us that researchs tend to find 5% "pretos" and 45% "pardos", this does not seem to imply any mis-self-classification by the populace; if both "pardos" and "pretos" were reported as Black, Blacks would be about 50% - if we ignore, as the unnamed critiques of IBGE's system seem to do - that the "parda" category also includes people of Amerindian and Euro-Amerindian extraction.

Of course, the unnamed critiques also ignore another problem - that of self misidentification. With three categories, one of them already allowing for an intermediate non-White and non-Black "identity", there are already people willing to self-identify as "moreno" (13.94% of "pretos", 53.96% (!) of "pardos", as can be seen in Table 1 in page 6 of Schwartzman's paper): the possibility that the Black self-identified populace would as low as 25% seems to be quite obvious. Labels don't change reality; reality changes labels.

Then there is the problem of the "indígena" category. As Schwartzman reports, it is strongly rejected by the populace. In fact, most Brazilians see "indígena" as a cultural category, not a racial one. According to this popular reasoning, if you live in a city and adopt "civilised" ways, you cannot be "indígena", never mind your genetic ancestry or phenotype.

But what does Prof. Schwartzman actually say about the "branco/pardo/preto" system when compared to the American White/Black system? In pages 15-16 of his paper, he writes the following:

''Estes dados também nos dizem, pela sua própria fluidez e imprecisão, e pelas importantes variações que se dão entre gerações, que não seria recomendável que instâncias administrativas resolvessem assumir a responsabilidade de classificar as pessoas do ponto de vista étnico, usando uma classificação qualquer. O principal resultado desta análise parece ser que a população brasileira, em sua grande maioria, se recusa a ser classificada de uma ou outra forma, muda suas identidades com o tempo, e esta permeabilidade cultural e social do país, que existe apesar das grandes desigualdades de oportunidade que persistem, deve ser respeitada.''

Translating:

''These data also tell us, through their own fluidity and imprecision, and through the important variations between generations, that it wouldn't be recommendable that administrative instancies decided to take the responsibility of classifying people from an ethnic point of view, using any given classification. The most important result of this analysis seems to be that the Brazilian population, by a considerable majority, refuses to be classified in one or other way, changes its identities with time, and that this cultural and social permeability, which exists regardless the huge opportunity inequalities that persist, must be respected.''

And a few lines below, describing the discussion within the Executive Comission of the IBGE (which he chaired at that moment), he tells us:

''Diversas alternativas para melhorar a questão sobre "cor ou raça" foram discutidas, e descartadas. Substituir a cor "parda" por "morena" provocaria menos rejeição por parte dos entrevistados, mas esta alternativa reuniria tantas respostas que se tornaria ainda mais difusa,e por isto difícil de interpretar, do que a forma atual. Substituir "preto" por "negro", eliminando a alternativa "pardo", significaria forçar, para o Brasil, uma visão da questão racial como uma dicotomia, semelhante à dos Estados Unidos, que não seria verdadeira.''

Translating,

''Several alternatives to improve the item about "colour or race" were discussed and rejected. To substitute "morena" for "parda" would rise less rejection from people being interviewed, but this alternative would gather so many responses that would become even more diffuse, and thence difficult to interpretate, than the present format. Substitute "negro" for "preto", suppressing the "pardo" alternative would mean to impose unto Brazil a vision of the racial issue as a dichotomy, similar to that of the United States, which wouldn't be true.''

So, not only the paper does not support the interpretation attributed to it, but it quotes, approvingly, an opposite interpretation.

So, as we see, the quoted part of Schwartzman's text cannot be used to support the text in the article, even if we agree that he is a usually reliable source: he is not exposing his position, but reporting that of others (who he doesn't name) without endorsing them.

This has already been pointed in the "White Brazilian" Talk Page.

Also, particularly interesting is that the following is attributed to Schwartzmann:

According to Schwartzman in Brazilian society people can easily pass from a race to another.

The link here shows that this cannot be Schwartzmann reasoning:

(from the Wikipedia article on Passing (racial identity)):

''In the racial politics of the United States, racial passing refers to a person classified by society as a member of one racial group (usually mixed-race African American) choosing to identify with a different group (usually white), usually by appearance. The term was used especially in the US to describe a person of mixed-race heritage assimilating to the white majority.''

But what Schwartzmann says is a quite different thing:

''Segundo esta interpretação, nos Estados Unidos, o que define um "negro" na sociedade segmentada seria sua ascendência africana e escrava, sua origem, e não o fato de a pessoa ter a pele mais ou menos escura. No Brasil, ao contrário, seria a cor da pele, mais do que sua origem, que definiria as pessoas socialmente, e serviria de base para preconceitos e discriminações. Isto permitiria que as pessoas "passassem" com mais facilidade de uma categoria racial a outra no Brasil, e, ao mesmo tempo reduziria a coesão e identidade interna dos grupos étnicos ou raciais. Uma outra interpretação, proposta pela escola paulista liderada por Florestan Fernandes, afirma que o preconceito de raça no Brasil é, em última análise, um preconceito de classe, também confirmada, aparentemente, pela relativa facilidade com que muitas pessoas conseguem "passar" de um grupo étnico ou racial para outro, em função de seu enriquecimento.''

Translating,

''According to this interpretation, in the United States, what defines a "Black" in the segmented society would be his african and slave ancestry or origin, not the fact of the person having a more or less dark complexion. In Brazil, on the contrary, it would be the colour of the skin, more than origin, that would socially define people, making the base for prejudice and discrimination. This would allow people "to pass" more easily from a racial category to another in Brazil, and would at the same time reduce the cohesion and internal identity of the ethnic or racial groups. Another interpretation, proposed by the paulista school lead by Florestan Fernandes, states that racial prejudice in Brazil is, in the end, class prejudice, is also apparently confirmed by the relative ease with which many people are able "to pass" from an ethnic or racial to another, as a function or their becoming richer.''

As we see, "passing" in the Wikipedia article involves an element of deception or even fraud, that is totally absent from Schwartzmann text. "Passing" in the American sence means a Black person pretending to be White. In Schwartzmann's context, it means a Black person actually becoming White. And more, those positions aren't even Schwartzmann's; he is quoting other authors (Oracy Nogueira and Florestan Fernandes). Ninguém (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

interbreeding
I'm under the impression that Afro-Brazilians were formed by an interbreeding of various African peoples who were brought to Brazil. If this is explicitly stated in the article, I missed it. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this? Gringo300 (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction
From this article:


 * In the 20th century, with the development of human biology and genetics study, it was concluded that human races do not exist because the genetic differences between humans is nonexistent, making it impossible a subspecies division.

And a few lines below:


 * These responses were interpreted by scholars and activists of the black movement as proof of Brazilian racism, where Blacks do not want to assume their identity, and hide themselves in euphemisms. From this idea, since the government of Fernando Henrique Cardoso, the Black Brazilian population is treated as the sum of the self-declared Blacks and Browns. This conception is based on the idea that Black Brazilians lie to the census and say they are Browns. Also, based on social indicators, in which Blacks and Browns appear disadvantaged when compared to Whites.

So, races do not exist - but Brazilian "Blacks" "hide" in euphemisms and even "lie to the census" when they describe themselves as "Browns"? How that? If races don't exist, how is it possible to lie about them?

This ridiculous contradiction, of course, is the result of this article being owned by someone who doesn't have a proper knowledge of Brazil, anthropology, genetics, etc., and who is unable to critically understand his assystematical readings. Ninguém (talk) 00:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ninguém to a certain extent...


 * This article is awfully wrong CEBR (talk)

The article has now been edited with the addition of the following sentence:


 * Despite this, the concept of race is still alive in popular imagination, and it is still endorsed by several governments all around the world.

This, I suppose, was intended to solve the contradiction pointed above, by introducing some level of "reality" to the notion of race. But, of course, it doesn't work, because the puzzle about how can someone "lie" about something that only exists in "popular imagination" remains. If "races" only exist in popular imagination, and a group of people imaginge themselves as "pardos" ("Browns"), then either they are pardos, according to their "popular imagination" or for some reason their imagination does not count as "popular imagination". Apparently only Whites' imagination counts as "popular imagination"; one would wonder since when, and for what reason, Blacks and Browns where excluded from the populus so that their imagination does not need to be taken into account. Ninguém (talk) 20:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Foreign racialist agenda
"Halle Berry is half white and is considerated African-American. If you have any amount of African ancestry, you are an Afro-Brazilian, no matter how blond you are. 45% of Brazilians consider themselves to be Afro-Brazilians. Another 40% has at least 10% of African genes. Genetical resources DO say about a population ethnic origin and is as important as the census. You have no argument to diminish the real size of the Afro-Brazilian population. What you do is racism against a Brazilian ethnic group. You should be banned from Wikipedia". Opinoso 22:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This text is an excellent example of the projection of foreign racialism. The US standards on "race" are no better than any other. The US, like many other places in the world, including Brazil, has had a troubled history with "race". The exact proportions of Amerindian, African and European contributions to the Brazilian genepool are far from being precisely determined. That study by Pena was based on about 200 samples. Another study, also based on about 200 samples, concluded that Brazilian "pardos", "blacks" and "whites" are on average 80% European (the average in the South a bit higher at 90%) (autosomal ancestry, overall ancestry, not mtDNA or yDNA alone)(http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/ult306u633465.shtml). Besides mtDNA and yDNA do not tell the whole thing, far from it. Just two examples: José Sarney is from Maranhão, colonial family stock, even though his mtDNA is African, his autosomal (the sum of his ancestors) is 99,9% European, which means that the African contribution was diluted close to zero. The same goes for Tiazinha, who is from the interior of Paraíba. Ivete Sangalo, from the interior of Bahia, scored 99,2% European and only 0,4% African and 0,4% Native American. Marcos Palmeira, whose family is from Bahia and Maranhão, who has a classic "pardo phenotype" (brown skin, curly hair, somewhat similar to Tiazinha) scored 93% European 5,5% Amerindian and only 1,5% SSA. Zeca Camargo, another tanned/brown skinned Brazilian, scored 96,5% European 2,6% Native American and 0,9% SSA(his mtDNA is European by the way). The key is: the Brazilian population is heterogeneous. There is no way to tell what is average so far. We all know there is strong African and European influences, besides Native American ancestry. Another important point, which is often overlooked, is that the current profile of Brazil is the result of a brutal exploitation process called colonization, which involved the decimation of Native Americans, the slave trade of Africans, and the cultural genocide of these populations. Moreover, leading scientists are also telling us that "race" is a social construct, not for real. There is no way the Census, with its colonial times words ("white", "black" and "pardo"), will capture the reality of Brazilian diversity. The levels of ancestry of Brazilians vary from person to person in such a way that it is really difficult to precise it. According to another study by the very same Brazilian Geneticist Sérgio Pena, in a sample of about 335 Brazilians from Rio de Janeiro, the "blacks" tested would be on average 41,8% European and 7,3% Native American in ancestry, thus roughly 50% non African in ancestry, autosomal ancestry (the sum of the ancestors, the overall profile)(http://cienciahoje.uol.com.br/152784). Would it be appropriate to characterize them as "Africans" then? They have multiple ancestries. According to that same study, the "pardos" from Rio de Janeiro would be roughly on average 70% European, and the rest made of African and Native American contributions respectively. And the "whites" from Rio de Janeiro would be roughly 90% European, and about roughly only 5% SSA (the African on par with the Iberian source, and practically within the noise range of the test), this way contradicting the often quoted studies posted so far. It is a proof of the high levels of diversity in Brazil. Again, it is important to stress the diversity of the Brazilian heritage, which is the result of European colonialism. Again, the studies posted by Opinoso are far from being conclusive. As shown below (Tiazinha and José Sarney examples), the European autosomal contribution is remarkable and to downplay it is as ridiculous as to overestimate it. Even from the point of view of that study alone both "pardos" and "whites" from Natal would be overwhelmingly European. As for the often quoted research by Pena (the 86% figure) that study was done a long time ago, and it has not been proved conclusively. As pointed out below, the Brazilian population is remarkably heterogenous, and there is no way to tell so far what is average, only if all Brazilians were tested. Just to illustrate it, another study, recently published, concluded that all Brazilians, be them "black", "white" or "pardo" would be predominantly European in ancestry (at 80% on average according to that study; in the South the European gradient would be even higher, at 90%) (http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/ult306u633465.shtml). From a few examples of celebrities one can see that the African gradient is high and so is the European. If the European were not high, "black" celebrities like Ildi Silva, Neguinho da Beija-Flor and others would not turn out to be over 60% European. As for the Northeast of Brazil, it is a vast region, and Ceará is a lot different from Bahia, no doubt, in many respects. Bahia, contrary to Ceará, has a sizeable population of nearly complete European ancestry, and also the largest African derived population in Brazil. Ceará was mostly the result of European and Native American contributions (Portuguese wikipedia article on Ceará has some interesting genetic studies about it). Luiza Brunet, the "Native American beauty" whose family is from Ceará, is mostly European (at 80,5%) and only 15,5% Native American (the African, at 4%, is practically within the noise range of the test). Grenzer22 (talk)Grenzer22Grenzer22 (talk)

White actress played slave in a soap opera...
... of course, because the plot was exactly about a White slave (since the slave condition was inherited by maternal line, nothing would make it impossible that a person with the phenotipical appearance of a White could be a slave). So there was no actual reason to chose a Black actress.

It's again the "épater les americains" line that plagues Wikipedia articles about Brazil. Ninguém (talk) 01:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Black + Pardo = Black?
Could someone explain to me why this article uses the category "Pardo" (Brown) as the same as "Black" when it isn't? --Lecen (talk) 13:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Strange
I find it strange some editor or editors keep mentioning "a strong North American influence." Where's the proof? B-Machine (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Where exactly? Ninguém (talk) 20:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you talking about the supposed North American influence in the Brazilian Black Movement? Considering that Ribeiro is given as the source (the same Ribeiro who wrote that racism in Brazil can only be solved by a social revolution, but is quoted as saying that it can be solved by the inclusion of Blacks in the market), I would dare say it is another fantasy. Ninguém (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

On sources and their misuse
This article used to include some of the most outrageous misuse of sources that I have ever seen. For instance:


 * Uma Gota de Sangue, by Demétrio Magnoli was cited as the source for this absurd statement:


 * From this idea, since the government of Fernando Henrique Cardoso, the Black Brazilian population is treated as the sum of the self-declared Blacks and Browns. This conception is based on the idea that Black Brazilians lie to the census and say they are Browns.

But Magnoli is a strong opposer of treating Blacks and "pardos" as the same thing, and defends the right of "pardos" to not classify themselves as Black. And, in fact, he is, a few lines below, cited as a critic of this "binary division". What seems to happen here is that Magnoli, in criticising the dichotomisation of racial discourse, attempts a reductio ad absurdum (or a strawman, if you prefer) by stating that such dichotomisation would imply that the 65 million Brazilians who declare themselves "pardos" to the census are liars - because this notion is evidently false, and indeed outrageous - and is then cited as having actually said that these people are liars.

Or to put it simply, it is like as he had said, "if this is true, I am a bycicle", and was then cited as a source for himself being a bycicle...


 * Simon Schwartzman is cited as supporting the idea that


 * (the official figures) would hide the true size of the black population in Brazil, which if defined in a similar way to what happens in the United States would reach at least 50% of the population; and they would also not measure the true size of the Amerindian population.

However, as it has been shown, in detail, in the section "What does Schwartzmann really say?" above, Schwartzman merely quotes this line of reasoning to better refute it, ending in:


 * Substitute "negro" for "preto", suppressing the "pardo" alternative would mean to impose unto Brazil a vision of the racial issue as a dichotomy, similar to that of the United States, which wouldn't be true.

He is also reported as following the same "thinking" as Darcy Ribeiro, which is utterly false; they have very different positions and lines of reasoning.


 * Edward Telles is cited as stating that any person with a significant amount of European ancestry was systematically classified as White. But what Telles effectively writes seems to directly contradict this: Unlike in the United States, race in Brazil refers mostly to skin color or physical appearance rather than to ancestry. Indeed, Telles is quite cautious on these matters; he is perfectly aware that Brazilian Blacks do have European ancestry, as we can see in page 93 of his book. So we have here, at very least, a completely careless reading of the book, which is then reported in a way totally inconsisten with its content.


 * Darcy Ribeiro is cited as believing that the prejudice in Brazil, due to be primarily social, can be finished. This will happen when many black Brazilians be out of the condition of misery and take part in the consumer market.

What Ribeiro effectively writes is very different: Assimilationism, as we see, creates a fluid atmosphere in interracial relations, but dissuades Blacks of their specific struggle, making them unable to understand that victory is only attenaible by social revolution.

Here what we see cannot be a simple misunderstanding; it is an utter falsification. An author who says that "victory" (which in context we must understand as "victory against racism and/or racial discrimination") is only possible through a social revolution is cited as saying that racism will come to an end once Blacks participate in the consumer markets. Ninguém (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no concensus after 20 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Afro-Brazilian → Black people in Brazil — If it is correct that neither official sources nor the academic world nor people in Brazil refer to these groups as 'African Brazilians' or 'Afro-Brazilians' but use the term 'negro' and 'pardo', then this certainly means the naming of this article can't be upheld. It can be determined in a later step whether a separate article is appropriate for 'pardos' or whether it makes more sense to cover this group in a substantial extent within this article. The naming of Black people in France or Black people in Europe seems to be a more appropriate naming scheme for this. The alternative name 'Brazilians of Black African ancestry' (such as in Portuguese of Black African ancestry) seems to be somewhat acceptable, but inferior as it ignores the fact that race is a socially constructed concept and not immediately bound to a specific ancestry. PanchoS (talk) 01:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Support, of course. Ninguém (talk) 03:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Neither official sources, nor academic publications, nor common people, nor the Brazilian Black movement - it is an almost completely unused term, at least in the acception given in the article. Ninguém (talk) 12:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * And what makes you think black is better? You think black applies to those of African descent? What about those in Southern Asia? Their skin is black, but they're probably not of African descent. Black is a color, that's all it is. Skin color doesn't determine ancestry. Look at the Black people article. It doesn't say, "black people are people of African descent." It says, "black people usually refers to a group of humans with skin colors that range from light brown to nearly black." Also, you seem to think people are the same. Wrong. Just because Africa was the supposed birthplace of humanity doesn't make all people African. That's nonsense. People do have specific ancestry, whether you believe it or not or like it or not. Try Googling the term "Afro-Brazilian." I got 557,000 hits which includes those of African descent using the term. It may not be widespread, but it is used. B-Machine (talk) 18:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

When filing this request, I didn't take into account that the Portuguese Wikipedia has articles on Afro-brasileiro and Cultura afro-brasileira and a category Afro-brasileiros. Also, Google scholar gives 984 summary results for "Afro-Brazilian", but only 634 summary results for "Black Brazilian", 661 summary results for "Brazilian Black" (which include several unconnected results) and 166 summary results for "Brazilian negro". At least this means that the term Afro-Brazilian is quite widely recognized. Now this doesn't mean that the term were undisputed, which might be a situation where a more generic term like Black people in Brazil which does include Afro-Brazilian and Black Brazilian, could serve well, even though it doesn't necessarily cover Pardos which we have a separate article for. In any case I think this is a good place to resolve the problem that Afro-Brazilian is basically a different concept than Black Brazilian but might be used interchangeably. — PanchoS (talk) 20:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm really sorry, but I'm getting some doubts on this. My initial picture of this — which was certainly influenced by the somewhat unsatisfactory AfD on ‘Black Brazilian’ — wasn't complete enough. It turns out that the term is used both in Brazil and in English-speaking countries and by the academic world.


 * Google scholar gives 984 summary results for "Afro-Brazilian"

How many of them use the word as is suggested in the title of this article?

The first results are about "Afro-Brazilian candomblé", "Afro-brazilian art", "Afro-Brazilian religions", "Afro-Brazilian communities", "Afro-Brazilian populations", "Afro-Brazilian dialect", and "Afro-Brazilian culture". The apparent exception is one article about "Five polymorphisms in gene candidates for cardiovascular disease in Afro-Brazilian individuals"; but this is a medical article; it refers to people of genetic African ancestry, not necessarily to people who would be recognised as Black by the population. Ninguém (talk) 21:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

In contrast, of the ten first google links for "Black Brazilian", five are about medical subjects, four about socio-political implications of race, and one about linguistics. Of the ten first links for "Brazilian Black", four are about medical subjects, four about socio-political implications of race, and two about black pepper. Of the first ten links for "Brazilian Negro", seven are about medical issues, and three about socio-political implications of race.

The term "Afro-Brazilian" is used, of course. It isn't used in the way it is used in this article's title. Música afro-brasileira, religião afro-brasileira, cultura afro-brasileira, arte afro-brasileira, comércio afro-brasileiro, yes. João é afro-brasileiro, movimento afro-brasileiro, voto afro-brasileiro, metade da população é afro-brasileira, no. Ninguém (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see the relevance of people from Southern Asia to this discussion. They are very few in Brazil. Ninguém (talk) 21:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * B-Machine:Look at the Black people article. It doesn't say, "black people are people of African descent." It says, "black people usually refers to a group of humans with skin colors that range from light brown to nearly black."


 * So, if I correctly understand, you are saying that "Afro-Brazilians" and "Black Brazilians" are two different things? Ninguém (talk) 12:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.