Talk:Agatha (wife of Edward the Exile)

Untitled
The medieval sources mentioned in the article should be sorted according to their date. The latest sources are the least credible. The Byzantine marriage of Louis the Blind is more than suspect. -- Ghirla -трёп-  18:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Name of article
With regard to the name of this article, it is inappropriate to call it Agatha of Bulgaria, Agatha of Hungary, Agatha of West Friesland, Agatha of Kiev or any of the other geographic indicators under which this woman sometimes appears because each is directly linked to one specific answer out of the many proposed regarding the hotly debated question of her parentage. It is an imperfect name - defining a woman solely by her husband, but until/unless there is some better resolution to the origin question, any geographical indicator violates NPOV. Agricolae 17:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but the title of the article is Agatha, wife of Edward the Exile, is it not? David Lauder 17:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is now, but that can change at any time. This comment was posted to explain a re-reversion to this name after it had been renamed back to "Agatha of Bulgaria", in hope that the viewpoint expressed would be considered prior to any future renaming. Agricolae 18:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Sister of Yaroslav the Wise
According to some sources, the last wife of the Prince Saint Vladimir the Great was a daughter of Conrad I, Duke of Swabia and Rechilind Ottona (Regelindis), who in turn was the illegitimate daughter of the Emperor Otto I the Great. The marriage between Vladimir and the Swabian princess would took place around 1012 and some later, they had a daughter, Dobronegra, later Queen of Poland.

Some chroniclers called Agatha a relative of the Emperor Henry (II or III) of Germany. The mother of Dobronegra was apparently (according to the sources) a first cousin of the Emperor Henry III. If Agatha was the full younger sister of Dobronegra?...

The chroniclers also called Agatha a "sister" of the Hungarian Queen. This, in fact, could happend: if she was the youngest of all the children of Vladimir, was only a child when his father died, in 1019. She and Dobronegra could be raised by his old half-brother Yaroslav with his own daughters.

It is generally accepted that Dobronega married Casimir I of Poland about the same year when Edward is thought to have married Agatha (judging by the date when their eldest child was born). As Yaroslav's sister (rather than daughter as Jette thought), Agatha would still have close ties to the Hungarian royal family (the chroniclers maybe identified her as a sister of the Queen of Hungary because they grown together). For instance, one of Yaroslav's sisters was the wife of Ladislas the Bald, a paternal uncle of Andrew I.


 * I had multiple concerns with this addition. There is, of course, the NOR problem.  However, it also fails to match the scholarly tone established by the rest of the article. For example, at the start, "According to some sources, . . ." This is derived from the Genealogia Welforum and Historia Welforum, as interpreted by Armin Wolf and Eduard Hlawitschka, and should be so described rather than just a throwaway "some folks say". Agricolae 02:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Margaret and Christina
It is near-ascertained that the direction of those names was NOT from Sweden to the family of Edward the Exile. Those two names, Greek in sense, were fairly certainly introduced to Scandinavia only in 1080s and so, by queen Helena, wife of Inge I of Sweden. Thus also they came to Sweden from Russia.
 * I have to ask whether the is any citation to express the untenable idea of those coming originally from Sweden. Marrtel 17:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Agatha of Scheyern (Hungary) - Genealogy
The following is the research of Aart Hopman MBE concerning this historic person:-

Agatha *c1027 of Scheyern [ancestry] Hans Constantin Fausznerin his “Zur Fruhzeit der [in the early days on Babenberger in Bayern“ [1990] describes the owners of Castle “Scheyern” [Skiren]. Arnulf *c885 +937 of Bavaria >< 910 to Judith *c897 of Walbeck, (1) Arnulf’s brother Berthold-1 *c885 or 890? [of Bavaria 938-947][Liutpolding] >< Bilitrud *c900 [Babenberg family] with son (A) Berthold-2 *c915 +980 [Liutpoldinger] >< 942/3 to Eilika of Walbeck *c929 [Walbeck family] with daughter (a) Hildegard *c943, aka Hizila Ductrix [Liutpoldinger] >< 956 to Henry *c930 [the 2nd Henry] of Bavaria 955-985 [Babenberger]. This 2nd Henry of Bavaria was a cousin of Berthold *915. Family married family to safeguard their possessions. Liutpold *c939 of the Donaugau [Austria] Hunfridinger family >< Richwara *c962 of Schweinfurt, daughter of 2nd Henry *c930 of Bavaria [Babenberg family], but with the name of “Schweinfurt.” Most likely Scheyern went from Arnulf *c885 +937 of Bavaria to his cousin Berthold *c915 and via Hizila Ductrix to her daughter Richwara *c962 of Schweinfurt >< Liutpold *c939 of the Donaugau, thence to their eldest son: (1) Henry V *c976 [5th Henry of Bavaria 1004-17] +1018 Hunfridinger brother-in-law of ;- 4th Henry >< Kunigunde *c885 of Luxemburg [Babenberger] and further via son - (A) Babo [Poppo] *c999 of Bavaria [Hunfridinger] >< filia *c1010 of Vazul [Arpad family Hungary] [Hungarian princess most likely sister of Andrew, King of Hungary 1047-1060] with children: (a) Otto-l *c1025 +1072 of Scheyern [Hunfridinger] >< 1057 to Haziga [Hadagunda] of Diessen. (b) Agatha *c1027 of Scheyern >< c1044 Edward-2 *c1018 Atheling of England [Anglo-Saxon family] and a daughter:- (i) Margaret *c1045 +1093, [future Queen of Scots]. King Malcolm III *c1031 Canmore [Chief or Head] of Scotland >< [ii] c1069 [St] Margaret *c1045 of Hungary +16 Nov. 1093 Edinburgh castle, elder daughter of Edward *c1018 Atheling, son of Edmund II *989 Ironside, King of England [Anglo-Saxon] and his wife Agatha *c1027. Agatha was great granddaughter of Hedwig *c948, daughter of Louis *920 of Oversea. Louis *920 [Kareling] of Oversea >< 939 to the widow of Giselbert of Lorraine Gerberga *c914 of Saxony Edward l *c869 the Elder >< [ii] Ælflaed [Elfleda] the daughter of Æthelhelm and had a.o.daughter (1) Eadgifu [otgive] >< Charles III *879 the Simple, King of France with son:- (A) Louis *920 of Oversea. This shows, that Agatha belongs to the Hunfridinger family and was closely related to the Babenberg family. Thus Agatha descended from Charlemagne *c842 [Karelinger family] and also from Judith *c806 Welf, with parents Welf *c780 >< c805 to Eilika [Heilwig]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John M Wilkins (talk • contribs) 12:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The parentage of Otto I, Count of Scheyern is uncertain. So, projecting Agatha as his sister is fallacious. Moreover, the article on Louis IV of France does not mention any daughter named Hedwig. Hrishikes (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

"Mirroring" External link to the "Henry Project"
Is there an acceptable way of indicating that, if the main link "Agatha at The Henry Project" is down due to monthly bandwidth limits on the customer's account, that the link can be found on an Archive.org capture 20 July 2017? I'm not sure of the protocol, and I'd say it's probably a pretty obscure thing to worry about having a redundant link to, but then, multiple times I've attempted to pull it up again and found that the account has been blocked. Lizbetann (talk) 23:52, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Medieval Sources
The current phraseology "while Orderic Vitalis in Historiae Ecclesiasticae is more specific, naming her father as king Solomon (filiam Salomonis Regis Hunorum), even though he was actually a contemporary of Agatha's children." seems unnecessarily and unhelpfully aggressive. OK so Orderic made a simple mistake of misattribution - the "Solomon" referred to really being Yaroslav The Wise. I think this would then fit in much more comfortably with a good deal of the other claims about Agatha's family background. Freuchie (talk) 20:50, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * One might speculate that this was the nature of Orderic's error, but other scholars have been of a different opinion - that he meant an actual king of Hungary, just not Solomon. It is not for us to try to solve the question nor to provide our own interpretation of sources, just reflect scholarly opinion (normally it would be 'to reflect scholarly consensus', but that doesn't exist with regard to this question).  If a scholar has suggested this interpretation, then it might be worth incorporating in the discussion of their theory, but if it is just your suggestion, then it represents Original Research. Agricolae (talk) 21:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Content Forking
The vast majority of this article is about the antecedents of Agatha instead of miscellaneous information. Despite the page being a bit short to do a content fork, there is a great imbalance when it comes to the content, and the point of the article is to simply be about Agatha instead of being primarily based on her antecedents. Could this result in a content fork or could it not? Vlaseesabas (talk) 17:47, 7 July 2023 (UTC)