Talk:Age fabrication

Dan Savage
Removed Dan Savage from the examples of actors fabricating their age. He is not an actor, but an advice columnist and activist, and the source of the information about his age fabrication was not a live link. 86.159.13.43 (talk) 12:27, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Provide sources
Adding lack of sources tag. For reference, provide a short explanation or external link to backup claims. IE, listings should say more than just, "Person X, born January 1, 1900, previously claimed to have been born in 1902." --Fallout boy 01:00, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Rafael Furcal
This page says that Rafael Furcal was born October 24, 1978, and "was first believed to have been born in 1979". The Rafael Furcal page says that he was born August 24, 1977. MLB Rookie of the Year Award says that he won the award in 2000. But this page also says that "during his major league rookie season, his 40 stolen bases were considered the most ever by a teenaged player". Regardless of whether he was born in 1977, 1978, or 1979, he could not have been a teenager in 2000. WTF????
 * Trying to sort this out; the Dodgers site and Baseball-Reference both have 1977, though CNN/SI and ESPN, among others, have 1978 (which I suspect is thr right one). The other info I think I've corrected. MisfitToys 00:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Elie Wiesel
Would someone like to take on the dispute over Elie Wiesel's true birthdate? --Davecampbell 01:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Alicia Keys
I think that she graduated valedictorian when she was 16 years old so she probably was born in 1981.
 * I've heard a lot about her being born in 1980, supposedly if you have an ancestry.com subscription, her birth certificate says 1980.--Fallout boy 13:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Why are their two categories?
Why "age disputes" and "incidents"? are some case-closed and others ongoing? The two don't make semnse to me. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 04:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The disputes and discrepancies is for people where there is still not confirmation on when they were born, where as the incidents is for people who have been verified or there is very strong evidence about their true age.--Fallout boy 20:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There are many that should be moved from one category to the other. Randall Bart    Talk   11:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge with List of entertainers where birthday and birthyear are in question
I'd suggest merging into this article, since they are the same topic.--Fallout boy 20:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Charo
If a judge ruled that her birth date was in 1951, how is the 1941 date a fabrication? This would not have been changed without a showing of evidence, which would have been easy to prove conclusively with medical and dental records. A judge would not have changed this date based on a particularly bouncy cuchi-cuchi. Laszlo Panaflex 03:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Zikra
It's more accurate to write it Thekra since it's written and pronounced with "Th" (Arabic: ذ) instead of "Z" (Arabic: ز). Radiant 05:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Greg Oden
The Oden entry states that it is based on rumor, and is unsourced, but mostly just makes no sense. If Oden were older, he would have qualified to enter the NBA last year, rather than playing college ball for a year due to the new NBA minimum age requirement. Indeed, there was clear incentive for him to claim to be older, not younger. 4.225.212.229 16:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

They should add teens!
They should add teens! I just saw a news article stating that most teens lie about their age online to benefit from adult sites.

Check this out! It's from a recent November 7, 2007 article from BusinessWeekly

From Punkymonkey987 21:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Lucy and Desi
I thought it was widely known during their marriage that Lucy was older than Desi. In fact I thought the character Lucy McGillicuddy Ricardo was older than Ricky Ricardo. I am probably wrong, but that's what I thought. Randall Bart    Talk   11:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Anastacia
I think there's been a mistake, because it doesn't make sense.

If her birthday is September 17, 1968, it's impossible that she revealed that she was 40 in August of 2008. Either the month is wrong, or the sentence should say "when was about to turn 40." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.104.108.6 (talk) 09:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Zora Neale Hurston
Author Zora Neale Hurston claimed to be ten years younger than her actual age, as stated in her article. 174.126.75.80 (talk) 08:58, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Rework of article
I have started a basic rework of the article, moving information into dedicated sections and showing the different reasons why people may choose to falsify their age. Certainly, there is a huge difference between the mechanisms driving a person who wants to appear younger to get an acting role and someone who wants to appear younger to avoid being drafted into a war.

Rather than enumerating the hundreds of examples of age fabrication, we should be documenting the reasons why people take the decision (the ageism of Hollywood, competing in youth sports tournaments, marrying before the age of consent etc). SFB 15:48, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Increasing age to enter the entertainment industry
More examples of increasing age to pass minimum age restrictions in the entertainment industryL- Traci_Lords increased her age to enter the porn industry. Nadine Coyle increased her age to enter aTV singing competition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by QuentinUK (talk • contribs) 11:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Mariah Carey and Jennifer Lopez should be added to the list
Mariah's birth year is in dispute. There is evidence pointing to both 1969 and 1970. Mariah has never directly confirmed her birth year. Jennifer Lopez long claimed she was born in 1970 until arrest records relating to the 1999 Sean Combs shooting incident in New York revealed her birth year as 1969. Though not a "major" star, Sofia Shinas should also be added to the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.169.79.119 (talk) 23:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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BLPN discussion - possibly heading to an AfD
Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard --Hipal (talk) 20:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Pinging major editors to this article that have been active on Wikipedia in the last year:
 * Anyone against an immediate AfD? --Hipal (talk) 16:36, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * BLPN archived: Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive338
 * removed a questionable PROD, so that's not an option.
 * Before moving ahead with AfD: I'm not seeing anything to merge. The relevant articles appear better than what's here. --Hipal (talk) 03:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Rebecca De Mornay
If they are going to be included, there has to be sourcing specifically saying they fabricated their age, not that it was misreported. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Born in 1959: https://www.californiabirthindex.org/birth/rebecca_j_pearch_born_1959_7009890

Which is acknowledged by secondary sources: https://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/person/46543%7C0/wp#biography, https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/today-in-history-august-29-hurricane-katrina-wreaks-havoc-on-new-orleans/news-story/735cafd6b32d7d87dca89e708eb6e73c

Claimed to be 3 years younger: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/filmgrph/rebecca_de_mornay.htm

That's what age fabrication is. There's no sense in removing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatsTheNextStep (talk • contribs) 03:20, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Where in any of those sources does it say that she claimed that was her birth year? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * What kind of question is that? The Washington Post didn't pull "1962" out of their ass. She lied, simple as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatsTheNextStep (talk • contribs) 03:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest you self-revert, as you've broken WP:3RR. What you're doing is WP:SYNTH, which is not allowed, and your also violating WP:BLP, making a claim that someone is lying without having sources that back that up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with this assessment of the disputed content, and the advice for the new editor.
 * The article is going to be put up for deletion partially for these problems. --Hipal (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Rebel Wilson and John Leguizamo
Should we add them to the list here as examples? Rebel Wilson had her birthday set to 1986 until 2015 when it was discovered that she was actually born in 1980. Leguizamo used 1964 as his birth year until 2022 when he revealed on Finding Your Roots that he was born in 1960. 208.127.190.114 (talk) 19:22, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for starting a discussion. We need references. You should review the previous discussions on this talk page to get a feel for other concerns that may come up. --Hipal (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Well there’s the whole report in Rebel Wilson from 2015 if that helps. As for Leguizamo, the 1964 birth date has been circulating around for as long as his career has been going. It just became public knowledge that he’s over 4 years older. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity/ls-celebrity-news/rebel-wilsons-birth-date-revealed-in-asic-documents-20150519-gh5caq.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.190.114 (talk) 23:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC) 208.127.190.114 (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was familiar with it already. It says, The comedian, who was the first Australian to host the MTV movie awards, has previously been coy about her age in interviews. --Hipal (talk) 21:50, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, Leguizamo claimed to have been born in 1964 in his autobiography, published in 2007. The back of the description says so.2600:100C:A210:2BB2:AC36:FEEE:3C96:EE90 (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC) https://archive.org/details/pimpshosplayahat0000legu/page/5/mode/1up?view=theater
 * I'm not finding it anywhere in the book. Is it just on the cover? If so, I don't think we can claim it to be "age fabrication". That would be WP:OR --Hipal (talk) 02:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Why not if it’s on the cover? 2600:100C:A210:2BB2:949A:4106:5686:76CD (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems to be OR then, and the cover info should be treated as coming from the publisher, unless there's independent refs to the contrary. --Hipal (talk) 02:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Even so, Leguizamo never corrected publications when it came to listing the age listed. It does make sense why he would use 1964 as his birthday as it seems to have been the year he and his family immigrated. Here’s a piece that he wrote in the Wall Street Journal that states he was 3 in ‘67.
 * https://www.wsj.com/articles/john-leguizamo-on-his-flight-from-street-life-1452616947
 * https://www.qchron.com/qboro/i_have_often_walked/leguizamo-elmhurst-s-versatile-hollywood-veteran/article_3f90d3af-46ad-5c0b-83f8-7eae8258b349.html 2600:100C:A210:2BB2:B99B:27E6:9FDE:6CE3 (talk) 05:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This NY Times article from 1991 says he was 26. 208.127.190.114 (talk) 20:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @User:Geraldo Perez I highly doubt that putting them is original research considering the evidence that has been provided here. I’d request your input here. 208.127.190.114 (talk) 22:23, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For Leguizamo it looks like he was deliberately misleading people based on the WSJ source given he made the statement there. He is under no obligation to correct statements others make, though so other sources reporting the info doesn't show anything about fabrication. I don't see it as original research to just state the facts that he gave one year in one source and corrected it in a later one. It would be best, though, if some reliable source made that conclusion. Geraldo Perez (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah…although there’s articles from early 1991 giving his age as 26.
 * https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/23/theater/a-mambo-king-speaks-words-of-comedy.html 208.127.190.114 (talk) 00:17, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As had been discussed previously, he didn’t just “give one year in one sources and corrected it in a later one”. He used 1964 as his birth year for the majority of his career. It’s not until 2022 that it was publicly revealed in Finding Your Roots that he was 4 year older. Granted there are some public records on FamilySearch that have also listed him as 1960, but those are primary sources and it would not be safe to use them here. 208.127.190.114 (talk) 00:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @User:0xDeadbeef I’d love to hear your input. 2600:100C:A204:65F2:888B:26AE:8CD1:CB93 (talk) 02:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Binksternet How do you feel about this? 2600:100C:A21A:B5A1:411:824F:904E:EB3B (talk) 12:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is further evidence he shaved 4 years off his age.
 * https://www.npr.org/2011/02/19/133871822/actor-john-leguizamo-plays-not-my-job 2600:100C:A212:26E1:95C4:A640:3681:AC30 (talk) 11:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Do we haven any BLP-quality references that verify that either deliberately misrepresented their true age? --Hipal (talk) 21:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Gloria Gaynor
Gloria Gaynor has long been reported to have been born in 1949 until very recently when it turns out she was born in 1943. Does she warrant an addition here? 2600:100C:A210:2BB2:949A:4106:5686:76CD (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not without references that demonstrate it deserves mention here. --Hipal (talk) 02:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure if these count but several publications have repeatedly listed her birth year as 1949, including these.
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=VK0vR4fsaigC&pg=PT630&dq=gloria+gaynor+1949&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9-sS02479AhXdPH0KHdmgAXsQ6AF6BAgFEAM
 * https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/music-popular-and-jazz-biographies/gloria-gaynor 208.127.190.114 (talk) 00:23, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Do we haven any BLP-quality references that verify that she deliberately misrepresented her true age? --Hipal (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Subject Matter
Is the example section for the article for those who have individually misrepresented their age or those whose representing company (I.e. record studio, film studio, etc) have done such? This is not been clarified and I suspect it’s why the debate has gone on here in the talk page for several years. 2600:100C:A204:65F2:847F:2D59:8601:9193 (talk) 12:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Better just to delete the article given the complete lack of references for the introduction section, the previous discussions, and Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive338. --Hipal (talk) 16:42, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay so just request deletion then please. The disputes here have clearly been going for years in the talk page. 2600:100C:A204:65F2:249E:2EE2:A9ED:8608 (talk) 00:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Deletion
Should this article be deleted? There’s been a debate to delete this article 2600:100C:A206:F6CD:F45E:D13B:5FF4:7735 (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)