Talk:Agent provocateur

Edit 09/26/07
The link under "External links" is linking to a blog about the commercial (lingerie?) brand called "Agent provocateur" and is not relevant to this article.

Edit 11/16/06
I removed: "However, since there is some evidence that the Black Panther organization was itself established as a provocation, aimed at disrupting and discrediting the integrationist program and coalition politics strategy of the Civil Rights Movement, this example drawn from FBI archives may be deliberately deceptive." No evidence was provided for this claim.

[I am not the author of the above unsigned comment.] Also, the above statement, at least the way it's worded, seems not sufficiently relevant to the article. Tragic romance 20:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

third paragraph: typically?
I'm a little concerned with the third paragraph:
 * The activities of agents provocateurs are typically called sting operations. Agents provocateurs are typically used to investigate consensual or victimless crimes; since each participant in such crimes are willing participants, only a police spy posing as a fellow participant in criminal activity is likely to be able to uncover such a crime.

There's something funny going on with the phrase "typically" here: we're talking about covert operations, we have no statistics on how these techniques are used. The article then goes on to discuss some of the known examples, which we're now supposed to presume are "atypical"? Perhaps we should be describing a "common use" of the technique, and then go on to discuss some other known uses. -- Doom 18:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Linda Tripp as agent provocateur
I have removed this from the article:


 * During the Clinton impeachment trials of 1998-1999, Clinton's defense characterized Linda Tripp as an agent provocateur of sorts for the Republican party, for secretly taping conversations with Monica Lewinsky.

My reason: secretly taping conversations is not a good example of the provoking actions of an agent provocateur. The contributor seemed to sense this, in adding the weasel words of sorts. Richard Myers 18:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

g8 protests
this is a current event, but there is at least one instance of an Agent provocateur has been identified, and i feel it should be added to the article source: http://de.indymedia.org/2007/06/182399.shtml

SPP Protests
I added a reference to this event and accusations therein. One of many news references is http://www.thestar.com/News/article/248608 accessed today Baiter

Broad definition of agent provocateur
Dear all, I added a broad definition for the role of agent provocateur on the Wiki and it was removed completely because it was seen as an act of vandalism. Earlier defintions were based on outdated, narrow concepts and James Bond style parlance, which may encourage the immature amongst us, but does a complete disservice to the real definition of the term. At least one other person was willing to develop edits around my original base definition. Rather that re-zapping the current narrow/flawed base definition, i would ask for further advice. Stephen (Intrench) Intrench 12:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation
Can a native speaker of English please add pronunciation help for provocateur. Syiem (talk) 08:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Provocateur is pronounced in English essentially the same way, I think, it's pronounced in French, if that helps. (Agent, on the other hand, is pronounced much differently in English: long a, g like the English j, different vowel sound, n less nasal and more distinct, t not silent.) TheScotch (talk) 05:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

plural?
The introduction says the plural is "agents provocateur". Yet thoughout, "agents provocateurs" is used as the plural. (I didn't make any change since I don't know which is correct.) 207.172.220.9 (talk) 12:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In French adjectives usually change so as to agree with the nouns they modify, but in English they don't usually. The term in question obviously derives from French, but its plural form might have changed in transit (to English). It does not have appear to have, however: Both the unabridged Random House English dictionary and the American Heritage English dictionary I've just checked only give agents provocateurs as the plural form. TheScotch (talk) 22:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I've now corrected the introduction. Thanks for pointing out the discrepancy. TheScotch (talk) 22:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Quick summary of Wikipedia's agent provovateur page
Agent provocateur –  An “inciting agent" who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within. An agents provocateur typically represents the interests of another group, or is an agent directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate or argument within a group while acting as a member. An agent provocateur is often a police officer that encourages suspects to carry out a crime under conditions where evidence can be obtained; or who suggests the commission of a crime to another, in hopes they will go along with the suggestion, so they may be convicted of the crime. These are sometimes called sting operations. One common use of an agents provocateur is to investigate consensual or victimless crimes. Since each of the participants in such “crimes” is willing, it is difficult for the authorities to discover them without the use of undercover agents. The activities of agents provocateurs pose a number of ethical and legal issues. Within common law jurisdictions, the law of entrapment seeks to discern whether the provocateur's target intended to commit the crime, or whether the suggestion to commit the crime began with the provocateur. It is also debatable whether the institutionalized deception that the use of agents provocateurs implies is in fact more harmful to the social order than the various consensual offenses typically investigated by provocateurs. In various European countries, agent provocateur is an official legal term for a person who approaches other people with a bribe offer, with consent of the police. It has proved fairly effective in combating corruption, especially in former eastern European countries.

Agents provocateurs activities have been one tactic of labor spies who may also be hired to infiltrate, monitor, disrupt, and/or subvert union activities. Within the US, the FBI’s COINTELPRO program had agents posing as political radicals in order to disrupt the activities of radical groups, such as the Black Panthers and the SNCC. The activities of agents provocateurs against dissidents in imperial Russia was one of the grievances that led to the Russian Revolution of 1917. An agent provocateur may also used against a political opponent. Here, it has been documented that provocateurs deliberately carry out or seek to incite counter-productive and/or ineffective acts, in order to foster public disdain for the politician or political group and provide a pretext for aggression; and to worsen the punishments of the opponent(s). Terrorists sometimes act as agents provocateurs when they seek to provoke government repression that they hope will alienate their potential constituency from the government in question, and thus increase support for themselves (as the opponents of the government). In this sense, provocation may be combined with terrorism. Ex: Yevno Azef, Wallace Fard Muhammad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.69.28 (talk) 22:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Agent Provocateur
'''We believe that the current definition of Agent Provocateur on the Wiki offers too narrow a definition and prefers to present 'Agent Provocateur' as a subversive type, intent only on disruption and destruction. We again offer our own definition of Agent Provocateur below. Please consider accepting this as the base definition.'''

An agent provocateur is a person assigned to provoke the awakening of a new order within a group. This assignment can be either covert or overt and represents predominately the interests of others, outside the group. Agent provocateurs can be found in the intelligence services, business management, politics and the media. Agent provocateurs can be classified in two camps. 1. Black hat Black hat agent provocateurs seek to undermine the free will of the target. Black hat agent provocateurs will step outside ethical boundaries to get the job done. Black hat agent provocateurs will take personal risks to get the job done. 2. White hat White hat agent provacateurs seek to uplift the free will of the target. White hat agent provocateurs will only ever work within ethical boundaries to get the job done. White hat agent provocateurs will take personal risks to get the job done. Agent provocateurs are experts in the art of subversion. Agent provocateurs are sponsored by government or business, usually on temporary assignment - such is the nature of the job. Their work is rarely accountable to anyone else but them. There is currently no concensus reached over the definition. www dot intrench dot com

Intrench (talk) 12:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Stuttgart, Germany: (Alleged) infiltration of agents provocateurs
Yes, that feels like Soviet times, but it's indeed happened in October 2010. Under the veil of anonymity, a handful of policemen did not deny the fact that a. p. were deliberately "employed" in the recent Stuttgart riots by a certain "pro-escalation" strategy, thus throwing objects when the police tell them to do so by secret communication channels (hidden walkie-talkies, etc.) Though with all theories of conspiracy, they must be taken with a pinch of salt. But in respect to ancient European events you guys are naming here in the article, I thought I'd mention a recent one, too. -andy 217.50.40.123 (talk) 09:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed Russian example
The entry was:

Russia
In the "Trust Operation" (1921–1926), the Soviet State Political Directorate (OGPU) set up a fake anti-Bolshevik underground organization, "Monarchist Union of Central Russia". The main success of this operation was luring Boris Savinkov and Sidney Reilly into the Soviet Union, where they were arrested and executed.

______________

Luring people into the Soviet Union does not describe an agent provocateur. There's no reference given, the wikilinks don't use the term. Instead of a person or persons infiltrating an organisation, this was an organisation to uncover persons. And from the Trust Operation article, it looks like they did the opposite of provoking: "MUCR kept the monarchist general Alexander Kutepov (Александр Кутепов) from active actions, as he was convinced to wait for the development of internal anti-Bolshevik forces.".

Also, Soviet Union would have been the appropriate title imo. DS Belgium (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Those are undercover agents whose purpose is to entrap, entice, and provoke" another person". In this case, they provoke Savinkov to cross the border. Perhaps one should describe specific people who worked as agents-provocateurs during the "Trust operation". Speaking more general, KGB agents in the USSR frequently acted as agents-provocateurs. And of course Okhrana did the same. This should be explained in more detail, with refs, understood. Biophys (talk) 18:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * if I were you, I'd look for examples like undercover police mingling with demonstrators and committing violence, or agents infiltrating pro-democracy movements, advocating illegal actions, stuff like that. That seems to be the common usage of the term nowadays, infiltration and inciting violence, discrediting demonstrators or organisations. But a reliable source using the the words "agent provocateur" would suffice for other examples. Maybe I'm interpreting it too narrow. DS Belgium (talk) 13:07, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Flagged "Russia" section
It has no citations, and it's written whimsically, like a story. I could do the research... but I wonder if someone with more domain knowledge should eyeball it first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meatybrainstuff (talk • contribs) 05:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Ferguson and other protests
Protests related to the black lives matter movement have been infiltrated by undercover police, at least in oakland http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/12/undercover-cop-points-gun-at-photographer/ 73.172.190.166 (talk) 05:50, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

dubious line
RCMP watchdog commission saw no indication that RCMP undercover agents or event monitors acted inappropriately. This statement is contrary fact included in a prior citation, which states that inadequate notes were taken by RCMP "There were inadequate notes taken," said McPhail, adding that the circumstances may have been "difficult," but in terms of a post-event review, they really are "necessary." http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/g20-report-clears-rcmp-but-raises-questions-over-kettling-1.1150680 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.0.159.21 (talk) 04:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Israel
The section should be deleted. The video shows an undercover operation by the IDF to arrest the leaders/ main instigators of the rioting stonethrowers. This is not a case of agent provocateurs, deliberately escalating the violence - the rioters only gathered at this place to throw stones at the troops. The first link shows the video of the encounter without comment, the second link doesn't work anymore, leaving no verifiable source for the claim. 188.108.254.49 (talk) 07:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

French etymology lesson is unnecessary.
Would someone consider editing out the main section of this article and its absurd French etymology history lesson? This is better suited for a new Etymology section, especially on the English Wikipedia where we don't give particular interest or sacrosanct obsession to all things French Language. - 75.173.89.233 (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Especially since "agente provocatrice" just doen't exist in french (well, I guess it does now, only thanks to to wikipedia). Whether male or female, an "agent provocateur" or "provocateur" is still an "agent" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.168.175.234 (talk) 11:56, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Delete Canada as not notable
This section is weak: they did not kill, maim anybody etc. (as compared to e.g. Russia):

CanadaEdit

On August 20, 2007, during meetings of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America in Montebello, three police officers... -》 let us remove it or trim to one sentence. Zezen (talk) 06:53, 19 January 2019 (UTC)