Talk:Agnes Smedley

New Source Material
There is a new piece by Smedley scholar Ruth Price in the July 29 2005 issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education that could be mined for material for this entry. The article can be found here. It particularly highlights her espionage activities and general service to Communists. --Varenius 19:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd like to read that, but you can't get in unless you're a subscriber. The last piece I read on Agnes told of how she took money from the Comintern to start a newspaper in China, then refused to do anything they asked, and told them all to go to hell. The Comintern sent out an angry message intructing all party members to shun her. Sounds like an enterprising woman to me. --Grif FarielloGrifross 05:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The article by Ruth Price can be easily found using Google's cache function (which is not accessible in China), and it is indeed interesting.

I've read elsewhere (in a review of Zhang Rong's biography of Mao by Delia Davin), that Agnes Smedley "fell into official disfavour with both the Soviet and the Chinese party authorities". Do you know more about that? Babelfisch 05:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The german Smedley site is pure comintern, this one is better, but still a bit communisty. She was an exceptional woman, she led an heroic life, she fell out of favour with the Mao forces at Yunan, but she also was a terrible liar and a lifelong spy for foreign powers against her own country and its allies. For the German Reich, then for the Soviets. But why should we need lilly white heroines? Some chapters of Ruth Price·s The Lives of Agnes Smedley are freely available on the net.--Radh (talk) 17:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Why the obsession with Smedley's connection with the Comintern, which ended in 1936. Price book overstates the case. How do you exactly define spying -- being a publicist for international communism was what Smedley was doing. Is this spying.? Sorge was a true "spy". Smedley was too public and unreliable to serve as a spy. As a publicist she was also unrealiable and dropped by Moscow and the USCP in 1936. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfingon (talk • contribs) 13:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, with Smedley treason seems to have been her way of live/identity, I think this is interesting in itself (not necessarily "bad" or evil in itself) and if I probably made too much of her spying, it is because I was/am completely pissed off with the german wikipedia communist censorship: east german ideologues there a)think they own the place, b) think they have to deny any spying charges against all communists. If you think your fatherland is the Soviet Union to commit treason against your country is simply not possible? An interesting concept, and I mean this not only ironically--Radh (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Agnes Smedley was no "American accused of spying"
She was no "American, accused of spying", she was a spy and a lifelong traitor, first for the Indian liberation movement (and thus also the German Reich and Kaiser), then for the liberation of mankind and of the chinese masses (and also for the Komintern). Why can't the communists leave this fact alone and start to care about more important things?--Radh (talk) 06:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Repeated deletion of all mention of Price biography
Ruth Price's biography provides extensive documentation of Smedley's work with the Comintern. All mention of this has been repeatedly deleted from Smedley's page without any discussion or justification, usually by anonymous users. Before deleting this material again, please provide discussion of reasons for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgr09 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Changes to lead
The lead paragraph was recently revised to remove reference to German support for Smedley's work for Indian independence during WWI, her work for the Comintern in the twenties and thirties, and her relationship with Richard Sorge. All of these are discussed later in the article, with references from the Price and/or Mackinnon biographies of Smedley. These were major parts of Smedley's career, and can't be simply dropped. The lead could certainly be improved, but changes should still reflect the content of the article and the article's sources. Rgr09 (talk) 23:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The lead paragraph goes far beyond what is in the rest of the article, over-emphasising espionage. The article says there were suspicions that she was a spy. The lead treats it as a fact. The article doesn't say that Smedley received financial support for Germany. It says she was involved in the Hindu-German Conspiracy, but that page doesn't mention her. The article mentions Comintern once. It doesn't say she worked for the Comintern in the '20s and '30s. The article says she had an affair with Sorge and introduced him to Ozaki Hotsumi. That's it. According to his page, Sorge was only in China for 3 years, at which time he was apparently involved with at least 2 other women. Why mention a short-term affair in the lead? Only to try to establish she was a spy. I agree that the lead should reflect the article. It doesn't.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:07, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for commenting on problems in the lead. I spent some time reading on Smedley a few years ago, so I'll try to offer a brief response.


 * Richard Sorge was a very important figure in Smedley's life, both personally and professionally. Both the Mackinnon and the Price biographies of Smedley deal with this, and putting it in the lead is appropriate. The accusation of espionage which is mentioned in the Final Years section was in fact the discovery of Smedley's work with Sorge; this should be explained, so I'll try to expand this section. On Smedley's involvement with Sorge's work in China, see Gordon Prange's book on Sorge (Target Tokyo, p. 22) which quotes the following passage from Sorge's "Memoirs": "The only person in China upon whom I knew I could depend was Agnes Smedley, of whom I had first heard in Europe. I solicited her aid in establishing my group in Shanghai and particularly in selecting Chinese co-workers ... She was used in Shanghai by me as a direct member of my group."


 * Smedley's involvement in the "German-Hindu Conspiracy" is described in Price, who found much material on Smedley's involvement, including materials from both British intelligence and U.S. Army Intelligence. Smedley was arrested for violating the Espionage Act in March 1918, spent several months in jail, and was indicted in both New York and San Francisco. Eventually the indictments were dropped, but the event had major effects on Smedley's life, including getting her involved with M. N. Roy and V. Chattopadhyaya, whom she later married, and again it is appropriate to put this in the lead.  The article fails to mention Smedley's arrest and much else in this area; I'll try to expand this section too. Rgr09 (talk) 07:56, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, that would probably improve the article. I still think the relationship with Sorge is being given undue weight given they were only together for a couple of years.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

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Don't trust Jung Chang
The suggestion Agnes Smedley was a spy is disputed. It is the opinion of one source, Jung Chang and her husband Jon Halliday, widely criticised as fanatical and unreliable on the subject of Mao and Chinese Communism.

They are also turncoats. Wrote a sycophantic biography of Madam Sun, which they leave out of their bibliography in their Mao book. Halliday also wrote Korea: The Unknown War, which took the North Korean side and ignored the general view that Kim Il-Sung was made by Soviet power and was wholly responsible for starting the war. Their view flipped after the collapse of the Soviet system. Thereafter, everything pro-Soviet was wicked, which they had not said while it was still in a position to dole out rewards.--GwydionM (talk) 08:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree (except with your view that they were in the pay of the USSR!). According to Encyclopedia Britannica, "In 1949 General Douglas MacArthur released an army intelligence report that outrageously charged her with being a Soviet spy. She threatened legal action, whereupon the secretary of the army admitted that the charge rested on no evidence."--Jack Upland (talk) 08:33, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * They were sympathisers, openly supporting. No paid but getting favours.  Including unusual access to people for their Mao book, since they were expected to support the mild line Deng had taken.  Wild Swans fitted that.--GwydionM (talk) 07:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Clearly they were sympathisers, but that's irrelevant at this point. Jung Chang and Halliday have been criticised as biased and unreliable. In any case, it's only one historian's opinion.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Lead
I am making a bold shortening of the lead. The issue has been discussed in the past (see above), and the main problem as I see it is that the text appears cluttered and not very reader-friendly. In addition, there are the following issues:


 * Daughter of Earth is known, but not "well known."


 * It states that Smedley is also well known "for her sympathetic chronicling of the Communist forces in the Chinese Civil War." However, the period that Smedley lived and worked in China (1928-41) also coincided with the Second Sino-Japanese War, from which she reported as well.


 * There is a touch of sensationalism in the line about Richard Sorge, and it also reduces Smedley to a sub-servient or enabling role, as if she was notable only in relation to his spy accomplishment.


 * Why is it necessary to list the nine (9) publications that Smedley wrote for? Considering that she was a productive journalist, these are not the only ones she published in either; as such, it's also an invitation to coat-rack.

Therefore, I have replaced the lead with a shorter, more concise text. Alternatively, some material could be kept - with the above issues addressed - but then it would have to be split into two paragraphs. 92.34.117.237 (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I heartily agree that the previous lead was long and wooly, but a one-sentence lead is not helpful, so I tried to hit a balance.ch (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks - it reads considerably better now. I will do some additional adjustments of the article in the days ahead, for example fixing that cluttered bibliography at the end (I've never seen translations and foreign editions included in an author bibliography on Wikipedia). 92.34.117.237 (talk) 23:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Good, thanks. Though it is not uncommon in situations like this, where the author's foreign reputation is pertinent, to list translations as a way of showing it without necessarily drawing a conclusion, which would be OR. If instead you want a citation, you could cite the WorldCat page, which will say "such and such number of titles, including translations into such and such a number of languages," but that might be more work than it's worth.ch (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I am pleased to see this article improve. Ok, then I will pare down the bibliography. As I said, I've never seen translations and foreign editions included in a bibliography here. Hemingway and Faulkner even have separate articles for their bibliographies, but you won't find any of that information there. Edgar Snow is perhaps a better parallel, but his page doesn't list translations either. And Smedley did not have a greater foreign reputation than any of those. What's more: the listed translations are not exhaustive (no Chinese ones, for example); so, it's also another invitation to coat-rack. (To find out about translations, you would go to the article devoted to the author in the target language). If you don't mind, I will also fine-tune the lead a little; then, I will address the "see also" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.34.117.237 (talk) 11:58, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Spy?
I reverted a change, because you can't be a spy if you are entirely open about which side you are on.

She did work with Sorge, but helping him collect publicly available information. It seems very unlikely she was seen with him when he was an actual spy in China, posing as a Nazi supporter to Germans helping the Kuomintang. Whether other activities count as spying is not clear, and the older statement is valid.

--GwydionM (talk) 08:05, 6 June 2022 (UTC)