Talk:Agnes of Loon

Mother of a monarch?
please explain which of her children was a monarch? Dukes are not normally considered to be monarchs for example. Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Her son who ruled a state was a monarch. He had the title duke, yes, but since he was a ruler who inherited his right to rule, he was essentially a monarch. How else is he to be categorized? He was a ruler who inherited his power and he ruled a state. That is the definition of a monarch. That he had the title duke instead of king seems minor in comparission. --Aciram (talk) 20:20, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Your explanation seems to indicate that this is your own reasoning. Bavaria was at this time within the Holy Roman Empire. The Duke had an overlord. When Dukes are (rarely) called monarchs (e.g. modern Luxembourg) they normally don't have any overlord. Can you find any reference which refers to this duchy as a monarchy in this period? It seems very unusual to me.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The emperor was an overlord in name only. It is as far as I remember quite generally aknowledged that the Empire was no longer a state in anything but name: while the duke had an overlord in name, in formality, he did in practice rule independently, as did the other vassals of the empire, who were vassals in name only and monarchs de facto. I had no idea this was to be regarded as contested by anyone. It is a fact that he ruled. His mother acted as a regent. The emperor had nothing to do with the politics in Bavaria, however formally he was an overlord in it.--Aciram (talk) 23:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It is a question of whether the word is used this way in English. As an English speaker I think the term monarch is a "strong" one which is only used in quite clear situations, and not fuzzy ones. If we want a fuzzy term we can use something like "ruler". Can you find an example of any expert publication which calls the dukes in this period monarchs? I think your judgement about "de facto" monarchs could certainly be debated. I am sure you realize that this is the period of Frederick Barbarossa. He was able to call up an army out of the empire, including Bavaria, and take it to Italy, so I think it is quite a stretch to say his rule was purely a formality?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)