Talk:Ahmad Abu Laban

Tarek Fatah said on the CBC that Abu Laban supported the boycotts on Al-Arabiya. Currently only Al Jazeera is listed. --JGGardiner 16:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

More Information on Abu Laban
Should´n it be noted that Abu Laban commenting on a murder case in Denmark between two muslim families, proposed that the murders family paid the family of the murdered 200.000 kroner, because that was the equivalent of 200 camels. --Rasmus81 14:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Controversy
In the article stands:


 * 1) On August 21 1994 Abu Laban was interviewed in Jyllands-Posten following a massacre committed by the Algerian terrorist organisation GIA that led to the murder of among others seven Christian Monks and a number of foreign tourists. Asked if he could condemn the massacre he replied: "Perhaps the tourists are spreading AIDS in Algeria just like the Jews are spreading AIDS in Egypt."
 * 2) In his Friday sermon immediately following the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the USA, he preached that "[he mourned the victims] with dry tears".
 * 3) Responding to Theo van Gogh’s murder, his response was publicly to criticise it, and privately in the Muslim community to applaud his death. Not long after, he criticized the European free speech for the issue of the controversial Submission movie of the murdered dutch film-maker.
 * 4) When Amina Lawal from Nigeria was condemned to stoning, he refused to condemn the sentencing, considering he is not a judge.
 * 5) After a gang killing in Copenhagen, Abu Laban proposed to deter any vengeance killing by the payment of a sum of "blood money" amounting to DKR. 200,000 – or the equivalent of 100 camels, according to his calculation, in today’s currency.
 * 6) Interviewed on Danish television he was asked if he respected Osama bin Laden, Abu Laban replied: "[Osama bin Laden] is a businessman and "freedom fighter" ", .
 * 7) "I call these people rats in holes" was his characterisation of the Danish liberal politician Naser Khader.

Sources

This is in some cases not fair enough, regarding the sources:
 * 1) The source of 1994 is no interview but three lines of an interview, we don't know. There is no evidence, that these were the proper answers to those questions. Furthermore, the accusations only are found there on Uriaposten.dk. A well-known person like Abu Laban would have been confronted with such things many times, wouldn't he? There is nothing to find, when I google after the Danish sentences... Please show me a better source and other reactions, then the self-referring ones.
 * 2) This may be true, I read it in another Danish source, which IS serious: http://www.religion.dk/tema/tema:fid=100001220:aid=7807 There they write, that he was unable to spend more tears, because he cried so much on Palestine and so on. But he doesn't justify the crime with one word.
 * 3) As said, there is a citation needed.
 * 4) ...the same here.
 * 5) so what? He was Imam and tried to make peace in some feud among two Muslim families. I don't understand, what was wrong with that. Or did he said, the murderer must not be punished, when his family pays the money to the victim's family in order to stop the feud?
 * 6) in the same source, we read, that he is against bin Laden's actions and preechings. What did he said in the original English interview as a word for "freedom fighter"? This interview is a translation from English (Abu Laban didn't speak Danish) into Danish.
 * 7) after this source, he accused Khader to be a "3rd class politician". Who are the "rats in their holes" remains totally unclear in this source. To say, Khader is a 3rd class politician, is no crime, and in some respects I would even agree (don't quote me for that, but I also know some original texts by Khader, which are not so brilliant), and to call the racist anti-islamists "rats in their holes", is also no crime, but just a normal rhetoric. Can it be, that Khader felt addressed? However, this is speculation, and we all don't know, what Abu Labans sermon really was. Does anyone have the English text of it? As said, he always preached in Arabic or English...

Don't take me wrong: I am no friend of Abu Laban and his obvious direction in Islam, but before we spread things like the above, we must check, what he really said, and what others want, that he said or not. -- Arne List 15:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 1). What do you mean it's three lines of an interview? There's nearly a full page at the link which is a screenshot of the Jyllands Posten newspaper. A reputable source. Here's the questions leading up to it:
 * Q: Do you condemn the murder of foreigners in Algeria?
 * A: It is hard to see what is going on. It is a secret war.
 * Q: Is is right or wrong to kill foreigners in Algeria?
 * A: You can't expect a short answer to such a complicated question...
 * Q: Is it good or evil to kill?
 * A: You interrupt me. Islam says that you're not to kill peaceful foreigners, but we do not know the circumstances. Perhaps foreigners are spreading AIDS in Algeria, like the Jews are in Egypt.
 * Furthermore there're already two cites to this particular issue (the other: http://www.sappho.dk/Den%20loebende/ekstremister_english.htm) - a quick Google reveals many others. Rune X2 15:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not satisfied with it, because an interview doesn't consist of three stupid questions and as stupid answers. By the way, I understand Danish very well, not necessary to translate it to me again, the English source of that talk would be much more helpful. I want to know, what was behind it. A Google search in DANISH doesn't reveal anything but only Uriaposten as source. Why didn't JP itself re-animated those unbelievable statements later in 2006, when it was necessary to damage Abu Laban as most as possible? This is not understandable for me. -- Arne List 16:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) If you demand access to the original raw tapes of the interview, you put too high demands on cites. Those have never been released to the public, it is very rare for journalists to give access to the unedited material and in any case they probably don't exist anymore.
 * 2) I translate in case somebody else should want to join the discussion.
 * 3) No idea. Perhaps they didn't find it neccesary "to damage Abu Laban as most as possible" or they had plenty of more recent material to draw from (the interview is 12 year old). In any case such attempts at double guessing is irrelevant - the cite is there in black and white. Rune X2 18:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 5) So the section is about "controversies". Weather you personally do or do not find anything strange with an Imam proposing solutions out of the Middle Ages to be used in Denmark in the 21. century, is imaterial to the fact that it did with this create quite a stir in Denmark at the time.Rune X2 15:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ja, ja, but why don't you write this in this section to explain the "scandal"? -- Arne List 16:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think I put in the sections. I have made some small additions. But I have followed the existing format, which was a brief, terse listing of different issues. Rune X2 18:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 7) Here's another cite: http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2006/02/10/183847.htm
 * "During his friday prayer he attacked both Naser Khader and the Dutch dissident and politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
 * "I call them rats in the hole. It is then, whom create the crisis in Europe, not us. I work hard and objectively in the intereste of all parties. The people mislead the European continent", says the imam. Is it clear to you now that it is Naser Khader (& Ayaan Hirsi Ali, will have to add to the article) that he calls "rats in the hole"? Rune X2 16:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No not really. I must read the original sermon in English first. It would give no sense, to put someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the same container as Naser Khader. It will be interesting, if he really did, but for such a conclusion, we all have to read the sermon first. -- Arne List 17:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I doubt you're going to find a complete transcript of his whole sermon anywhere. However, news articles giving resumes on events is generally accepted as valid cites on Wikipedia. And Abu Laban never made much sense in the first place. In some ways he was a tragic figure. Despite his many years in Denmark, he never understood Denmark (as he never learned to speak Danish) Rune X2 18:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, well, but I have my doubts, because I can remember very well the hysteric situation one year ago. There was a video of one sermon at JP's homepage. I already wrote to JP and asked them for reliable sources. As said, one who puts Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Naser Khader in the same container, has lost the overview, or is talking about something different. It is quite familar to me, that in that "Muhammad ballad" (you are Dane, aren't you?) very many things were mixed, surpressed and filtred - on "both sides" of extremists and the media. -- Arne List 19:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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