Talk:Ahmad Zahir/Archive 1

Misinformation
Album Dates

What is very unclear is the dates of the albums. The only way to prove this is to have the actual albums in their original covers and with the date of the recording. And if that can't be found, then you need to find the original recording dates from the studios-- Afghan Music, Ariana Music and Music Center.

As far as the Radio Afghanistan recordings, you can get that information from the archives at Radio Afghanistan; all the original recordings have survived with the dates, musicians and composition.

The point is, family or friends' accounts are great. But you also need recorded facts and sources. And if you got one source, excellent, now find another that backs it.

-- Farhad Azad

You are correct. The dates and release of these albums are very inaccurate. It is better to just list the albums instead of giving inaccurate dates. Some albums were released later than the years indicated here.

Nainawaaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nainawaaz (talk • contribs) 03:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ethnicity Question

It is disappointing to read these argument about what tribe or people he came from.

What is known is that he was born in Afghanistan and that made him an Afghan. And if he were alive today, I am sure he would be very sad to read these silly arguments.

If you are a true fan, listen to track 7 "Aye Hamwatan" (My Countrymen) on Ariana Music album 2. Listen to the lyrics and understand what message he had for his people.

And by the way, the first song on his first Afghan Music album is "Maihun Aye Maihun" (My Country). He officially began his album series dedicated to Afghanistan. Again, listen to the lyrics, where you can sense how he felt for his country and people-- passion, love and dedication.

-- Farhad Azad

There are people here notably user ID Anoshirawan who is spreading misinformation about Afghanistan, its culture, music, and definition. This person is knowingly spreading wrong information to spread his ideological ideas which are ethnocentric and notably anti-Pashtun. Qbzad

I wana add some more info about him, but she has blocked me. I have some good info from Ariana TV.

About the recent changes ...Ive worked hard to bring alot of accurate information through out the months so please do not erase or change my info...becuase this is wikipedia everyone is welcome to ADD info but not change information when they have no idea them selves. alot of the changes that have been made are info from Ahmad zahir.com which is someone elses work ..so no copy and pasting here and the person who made these changes dosnt realize that there was no telivison during half of Ahmad Zahir's career becuase telivision was released in Afghanistan in 1975 so Ahmad zahir's first album was long out before tv's became a regular house hold item. The Album info has been changed plz agian do not touch other peoples works ...someone has added ?'s on the years of the album to my best of knowlege those years are accurate or close enough becuase Ahmad zahir has 3-4 albums out in the late 60's. Ahmad zahir's music videos were recorded in 1976 and 1977..Khuda buwat yaaret was recorded at the time of Daud Khan in 1977. Also I beleive the same person changed the paragraph about some of his personal life like during 1976-1978 he had marriage problems with his second wife and he also was arrested a couple of times 1) becuase of Daud khan and some socalist politicians were doing purges on upper class people and anyone they saw a threat to the republic which Ahmad Zahir was a threat in thier views. 2) Ahmad Zahir was arrested also on speculation of having to be involved in the murder of Khalida Gulpar in 1976 or 1977..but he was cleared of any wrong doing becuase someone from his second wifes family murdered Khalida and forged a letter saying that khalida was killed by Ahmad Zahir becuase ..It was rumored that Ahmad Zahir and Khalida were having an affair.

the topic of Mabubillah Pacha is a rumor also so we can not speculate or blame him unless there is proof becuase there was a girl at the scene of the crime who witnessed Ahmad Zahir's death but till this day she has not said anything about it for reputation purposes. See like some of these things should not be put in the article or to replace accurate information unless who ever did this wants to make a seperate section or paragraph to ADD to the article. So I will not block this article becuase some people might have some good information about Ahmad Zahir..but if I see any HUGE changes or other peoples work's changed then I will block the Article from being edited by other users. Abdul916 18:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

to who ever changed the article with poor and untrue facts do not touch the article evr again ...i will block this article becuase time and time after people are vandalizing my work. Most of the info is factual nothing based on assumptions and for the person who went buck wild on my discography info ... you have no clue on what you are talking about the album shab-e hijran Afghan music #14 was recorded in 1973 before the fall of the Shah of Afghanistan my father brought the original recording of Afg #14 in 1974 when he came to the United States so you are completely inaccurate with your info on that one son  saying it was recorded in 1978.. listen ppl Ahmad Zahir was pretty much not active in music through most of 1978 becuase of the death threats and his troubles with the law, the only factual info was Ahmad Zahir recorded his last album which was TOO BAA MANEE Music Center # 5 which was recorded though 1977 and completed in 1978 and was released after his death that and 1 or 2 private recorded songs for the radio even though he had a very entertaining majliss in feb or march of 79 and had said that he was going to make another album which would have been in Music Center also he was going to make 1 or 2 music videos too this is from his long time friend Amanallah Amanyaar who was head of radio kabul during the khalq times ..Masoor jamal was the head during parcham times which Ahmad zahir was already dead at that time...Farhad music there was no farhad music when Ahmad Zahir was alive ... dont base Ahmad Zahir's info on underground pakistani recording companies becuase that is what you are doing ...for example they list the original Ahmad zahir Afg music album #2 as javed music center #32 so which is fake and is not the original recordings.so sure whats next Ahmad zahir was going to record an album for Zabi music center or even Virgin records come on plzz give me a brake.. I can tell that you live in pakistan also if you want to add info on Ahmad zahir plz get the facts right and learn how to type proper english...but srry i will block this article becuase of made up and untrue asumptions. Abdul916 18:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

'''Where do the Mods get their information from? All the information is based on self belief and emotions.'''

'''Ahmad Zahir was a Pashtun and his Father was a one time Prime Minister a known Pashtun. Where did you get the Pashai from just because Laghman has Pashai. You people really do know how to forge facts and truth into a self proclaim dream.--Shikab 03:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)Shikab'''

His father was from Northern Laghman(modern day nuristan). His mother was a Tajik--Anoshirawan 05:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

So if we go by your logic than Rumi is Afghan not Persian? Earth doesn't rotate?

Stop trying to change a person's identity for your own purpose and stop claiming over Afghan culture.--Shikab 05:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Afghan culture is synonymous to Pashtun culture. -- Behnam 01:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

These fools love to change peoples identity. They claim all evidence shows him being Tajik/Pashia while thre is no evidence. That aside I guess those that are related to him and his son doesn't know his true identity only the mods in this encyclopedia know the truth?IDIOTS! Rishad Zahir's Email and if you can't trust it go ahead email him through his website or come to Toronto, Canada meet his family members.

'''M.... Jan salam. Hope youre doing well. Thanks for informing me regarding the Wikipedia situation. I will contact them this up coming week. We the Zahir family are proud Pashtuns, and this needs to be clear to every afghan. Again I apreciate you contacting me. Kuda hafez Rishad'''

Still can't trust go ahead contact him through his website.--ProudAfghan4life (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

About the Ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir
The information about the Ethnicity of the great singer Ahmad Zahir is wrong. He is not Pashai, or tajik he was Afghan. and is the son of the former prime minister Dr. Zahir

so please correct that

Ahmad Zahir was Pashtun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hon203 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC) regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.171.235 (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The general term of all citizen of Afghanistan is Afghan. Of course Zahir was an Afghan but of Tajik descand.--84.59.207.74 (talk) 13:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

All of the evidence I have seen indicates that Ahmad Zahir is an Afghan, and in fact a Pashtun Afghan. Anoshirawan claims that his mother was a Tajik, but I have seen no supporting evidence for that. Even if it were true, Zahir would still be an Afghan. So that is what the lead should say. If Anoshirawan can provide a citation to a reliable source for his statement about the mother, then it can be included below the lead in the early years section. As to his father, Abdul Zahir the evidence is again all on the side of his being a Pashtun, so why would anyone say that he was Pashai? Ahmad Zahir's mother may not be pure anything and may in fact be of Pashai and Tajik descent, but that too needs a source. For the nounce, until citation is provided, I suggest that the first sentences in the "Early years" section be changed to read, "Ahmad Zahir was born in Laghman, Afghanistan. His father, Abdul Zahir, the royal court doctor, was also a former prime minister and an influential figure in the Zahir Shah's era." It is not necessary to repeat his birth date, and the Persian calendar would only be relevant if his horoscope were discussed. --Bejnar 16:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * editprotected Request that the unsourced and duplicative material be removed from the "Early Years" section so that it reads: "Ahmad Zahir was born in Laghman, Afghanistan. His father, Abdul Zahir, the royal court doctor, was also a former prime minister and an influential figure in the Zahir Shah's era." See above. --Bejnar 16:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I personally am not comfortable putting unsourced content into an article. Now I wouldn't mind making a simple protected edit like this, and I wouldn't mind removing incorrect information. However, could you get a source so that I (and anyone else) can verify that these fact are sourced.-Andrew c [talk] 02:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't asking that anything be added, just shorten what was there by taking out some stuff that was the subject of controversy. --Bejnar 01:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir was born into a Pashaii Family who were from laghman. The village which they were from was in northern Laghman province(currently in Nuristan province). His mother was a Panjsheri Tajik. Dr. Zahir had numerous interviews in Kabul Radio about the Pashaiis of Laghman. Also, Ahmad Zahir was extremely Pro Persian(dedicated a song for the Iranian Shah) and only had 1 song in Pashto. --Anoshirawan 06:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In order for us to believe that, we need to see strong evidence. A link from some source would do, so we can check to see if you're telling the truth or not. As far as I know Ahmad Zahir is from Pashtun ethnic line, of the Mohammadzais. This is known by almost all Pashtun people. His place of birth has nothing to do with his ethnicity, even though the majority live there are Pashtuns. Also, his father and mother were both Pashtuns. He sang in Persian and in Pashto languages, it does not matter how many songs were in which language. As a neutral person, no need to mention ethnicity if there is no solid proof, leave it out. (Dilbar Jan 11:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

There are no Muhammadzais in Laghman. Most Laghmani Pashtuns are Ghilzai not Durrani. He had more english songs than pashto --Anoshirawan 22:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)


 * He sang in Persian languages because all his girlfriends were Persian speakers. His father was from Mohammadzai Pashtuns, it does not matter how many Durranis or Ghilzai live in Laghman, that's something extremely difficult to figure. Most Pashtuns don't even think of Durrani or Ghilzai, they use Afghan as a nationality. (Dilbar Jan 01:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Gul Agha it seems like it that you will never stop with your emotional dulusional dreams of changing facts into dreams. This is why we Afghans laugh at your Qizils. First you try to claim you are Tajik or go to different forums and act as different ethnic group to get your emotions out. I even provided my facts in the Afghan forums that Ahmad Zahir was Pashtun. My grandfather was close ally of Zahir Shah and he knew Ahmad Zahir's father well since he was close friends with him. Ahmad Zahir's mom could hardly speak Dari and you consider him Tajik decendent. You claim so many things and yet no facts have been provided. The only reason you Cultureless people claim him as Persian is because he was a famous Afghan singer who sang in both Pashto and DAri. Also if you claim that Northern Laghman is populated by Pashais and this is your proof he wasn't Pashtun then you aren't Qizil since you live in teh west. After all the west is full of Foreigners such as Americans, British and so on. So why do you claim yourself to be Qizil if you live in the west fool? As always you embarass yourself befarhang benamos bewatan.– — … ° ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § shikab: Shikab 03:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This is no Discussion Forum. This is an encyclepedia not a place to bash or curse others. Thank you --Anoshirawan 04:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the editprotected tag. Please re-add it when you have decided exactly how the section should be edited, including all necesary sourcing. Tra (Talk) 15:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

What happened this whole time I was gone...man!this is silly Ahmad Zahir is not afghanistani..he is Afghan and his ethnicity has nothing to do with his talent as a singer. All Pashtuns, Tajiks, uzbeks ,Hazaras, and turks are AFGHAN... and to the person that said Afghan culture is assoicated with being pashtun..NO ITS NOT thats what makes Afghanistan such a special place becuase every place has its own special people in afghanistan..Like we say Aaar jai az khud rasm o rawaj dara...so please refer Ahmad Zahir as Afghan... not Afghanistani or pashtun... or Tajik... when you read about a famous person from a country ..people only say what country he or she is from not what ethinic line they come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdul916 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir and his family were ethnically pashtuns. Just because he sang in dari does not make someone a tajik. Look at others like Nainawaaz, Ahmad Wali and others who are ethnically pashtuns but speak dari as their main language. This is a very mute point to make and what benefit are you gaining for making him tajik? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nainawaaz (talk • contribs) 03:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Origine

 * I see no citation to reliable sources in the above comments by 88.68.202.2. Some of it looks like original research. It seems to me that with an acknowledged Pashtun father, continued discussion of his ethnicity is a bit weird. I would just delete that disputed portion of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 01:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Prof Enayatullah Shahrani's Book " Bazmeh Ghazal" says Ahmad Zahir was half Pashaii and Half Tajik. Shahrani was the dean of the Fine arts faculty of Kabul University.--Anoshirawan 02:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)


 * Can you please provide the details of that book? Then we can just cite it and put an end to the dispute. CanadianAnthropologist (talk) 15:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Rishad Zahir has been contacted and he has requested for the information to be removed completely or change his ethnicity back to Pashtun. No one has the right to rob his dad from his identity. For further information he can be contacted through his email in his website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProudAfghan4life (talk • contribs) 17:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Questionable dates
Someone wrote this on the article:

''The dates on these albums are questionable. For example, his last album "Afghan Music #14" was released three months after his death in August 1979. Yet according to the above dates, album "Afghan Music # 14" is released in 1973! The dates need to be to updated with accurate dates.''

CanadianAnthropologist (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Professor Sharani...
Where is the text of this book? A source with the full text available to all to verify is better than citing something by name and giving no details. --ManOLantern (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Azalbumcover.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Azalbumcovery.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not POV neutral - lack of sources
especially the chapter Foul play and conspiracy lacks from neutrality. (E.g.: Whoever had murdered Ahmad Zahir murdered a afghan superstar who we will never forget.) It also lacks totally of sources. --213.155.231.26 (talk) 12:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I rewrote the "Death" and "Foul play and conspiracy" sections, which have no cited sources, trying to make them NPOV. If there are still problems there, please annotate them here. --Bejnar (talk) 16:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Bad citation
Anoshirawan cites Professor Enayatullah Shahrani (Dean of the Fine Arts Faculty of Kabul University) (1999). Bazmeh Ghazal, for ethnicity and parentage, however this citation is not verifiable. Anoshirawan also uses this citation in the Sarban article for an ethnic statement, where the problems with this citation are more fully discussed at Talk:Sarban. --Bejnar (talk) 23:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've corrected this and provided an English language source that can be verified by all. Here is an excerpt from the piece.


 * He also reflects an Afghanistan that was far less ethnically polarized than it is today. An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups.


 * "At that time there was not such a question -- we were Afghans," said Shah Muhammad, a Kabul bookseller who regularly sold books, Shakespeare among them, to Mr. Zahir. 


 * --Kitabi420 (talk) 18:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"Professor" Shahrani is a known advocate for federalism in Afghanistan. Aside from that, this so called source is not only inaccessible but also not available in English. I'd have to say that makes it difficult to prove it's relevance or that it even contains the claims Beh-nam and Anoshirawan attribute to it. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Beh-nam or Tajik's sock wants there to be no ethnic reference if it isn't a Tajik one. I must say that this is not acceptable. There is no contradiction here as the author of the NY Times article spoke directly to Ahmad Zahir's sister. Further, the source that Beh-nam/Tajik/Anoshirawan insist on using on this and other articles is neither available nor verifiable. It is clear to me that the verifiable, English language source overrides a possibly fabricated source. Please make sure this stays. --Kitabi420 (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of User:Beh-nam...
Advisory. and are both. They have both left the exact same edit summary in reverting my edits. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That is because I copied and pasted AhmadZahirFanNumber1's edit summary. Farsiwan22 (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * How convenient. You are exposing yourself.  It's interesting how you insisted on keeping Pashai/Tajik but are now saying ethnicity should be kept out all together.  This tells me that you aren't quite confident in your fake source that you have also recycled for other articles.  --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * When did I say he was Pashai or Tajik? I removed both statements since two sources are contradicting eachother. Farsiwan22 (talk) 21:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I see that you have become confused as a result of assuming a few hundred identities online. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Death
Anoshirawan in his edit of 03:32, 7 February 2008, by his in-bulk restoration of an older version of the article deleted the requests for sources about the controversy surrounding Ahmad Zahir's death. Can anyone find any reliable published sources supporting these statements? --Bejnar (talk) 00:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ahmadzahiralbumcover70s.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The article from New York times is not a reliable source and it has mistakes, so you can´t use it as source. Additional to that there are a movie about Ahmad Zahir on work (the trailor is already out) where it shows clearly he is born into a Tajik family (with some lesser Pashtun, Hazara and Pashai friends from Laghman and outside Laghman of the family) and in no kind of sources it is claimed he was a Pashtun, in no kind. He also never claimed himself as a Pashtun, instead he was singing, acting, living in Persian, celebrating it´s own heritage, the Persian culture. He had not even a single song in Pashto. My uncle and he even worked together in Radio Station Afghanistan and he also says Ahmad Zahir was a Tajik of ethnicity (so not even a Pashai). This year, i will visiting Afghanistan than i will bring really good books about his life, career, ethnicity and many more, his own biography written byhimself, you will see!

Ps: the calender is not an afghani calender but a Persian and also all the names of the months. The calender was founded by Omar Khayyam/Omar Chayyam--84.59.202.126 (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir was ethnic Pashtun
Here is a link to The New York Times special article about Ahmad Zahir, where it clearly states that he was an ethnic Pashtun. "An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups." New York Times got the ethnic information from Zahira Zahir and other family members of Ahmad Zahir that live in USA. Please stop giving him false ethnicity by stating him as Tajik because the fact is he was not a Tajik. Majority of the people in Afghanistan are ashamed to be called Tajiks and they would never call themselves such names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roge from What's Happening (talk • contribs) 01:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We have many relatives in our family who are Pashtuns, but also many who are Tajiks and some Hazaras. But we neither consider us as Pashtun nor as Tajik. We justly call ourself as Afghan-e Farsizaban, no Pashtun, no Hazara or Tajik. Categorizing ourself to any Tajik, Pashtun or other groups, that would be an insult for my family, for our relatives who are Tajik, Pashtun and Hazaras, and for Afghanistan. We do not represent anyone of these groups, but the Afghans as whole. I will change the information about Tajiks and Pashtuns and replace them with Persianspeaking Afghans. That´s fair enough to everyone, including my own.

Ba Ehtram 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC) Ps: Please, stop insulting eachother. By calling names to yourself you hurt only Afghanistan and it´s great people. 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The current version is freed from ethnical allegations. Please, be honest and respect that. Otherwise, I suggest for a cancellation of the article. Ba Ehtram 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

IP, I know what you mean but if stubborn people come here and claim him as their own and use any source they can find, so why shouldn´t we use the right and real sources to prove his ethnical origine? It is wrong calling someone something he is not. If we know his ethnicity and have sources why shouldn´t we use them? It is not insulting, just an information on the person and a fact. Just take a look on these Pashtuns and Tjaiks here on this diskussion page what they call to eachother, just because they want to claim them as theris and noone brought any reliable sources. I am myself half Pashtun but5 do not support any fake informations about my other half. You will see there will be many IPs in the following days who won´t accept any real sources, only their own ethnocentric POVs--94.219.196.21 (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

94.219.196.21's claims and sources
The BBC source provided by the IP doesn't mention anywhere that Ahmad Zahir was an ethnic Tajik. The IP also added the following 4 sources, of which non of them can be proven.


 * 1) ^ Khelâze Zawân-e Ahmad Zaher; 1979 Kabul, Jawid Ahmadi
 * 2) ^ Zindaginame Ahmad Zahir; 1999 Tehran, Houshang Mahrufi
 * 3) ^ Ransânse Farhange Farsi-e Dari; 1987 Herat, Farhad Shiringol
 * 4) ^ Professor Enayatullah Shahrani (Dean of the Fine Arts Faculty of Kabul University) (1999). Bazmeh Ghazal

There was not even a single source before this and all of a sudden an IP comes and adds 5/6 sources. Only one of them is an online source (in Persian), even that one doesn't mention anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. (Ketabtoon (talk) 18:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC))


 * The New York Times article from March 20, 2003 unambiguously states that Ahmad Zahir was "an ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari". The NYT does not attribute this statement to any one person; it simply states it as fact, which usually carries some weight coming from NYT, given their rigorous editorial process. While editing this article to change Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity to Tajik, 94.219.196.21 has attempted to discredit the NYT (an uphill battle at the best of times) and has cited several apparently fictional publications.  Can anybody provide any actual reliable sources stating that Ahmad Zahir was not an ethnic Pashtun? If so, please add it to the discussion here first; please don't add it to the article until consensus is reached.  Let's avoid further unnecessary edit wars. AtticusX (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: The Afghan historian and poet, Wasef Bakhtiar, is writing a new biography about him in permission and coworking with Zahir family. Let´s see what these vandalists here will say when they read A. Zahir was a Tjaik. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.184.224 (talk) 20:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * "He also reflects an Afghanistan that was far less ethnically polarized than it is today. An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups." The NYT article is not quoting a "Pashtun bookseller" or whatever there; it's in the narrative voice of the New York Times. It is online for anyone to verify. The same cannot be said of your sources, which is why we are skeptical of your entire argument.  I don't personally care whether Zahir is this or that ethnicity, but I think we have an obligation to ensure that all the info in this article is verifiable and founded on reliable sources.  Frankly, the reason I tend to trust the NYT's statement over your sources is because the NYT is the only source I've been able to verify.  I Googled the names of your offline book sources, and got zero results.  That's pretty unusual, so forgive me for asking if you might have a possible explanation for that.


 * By continuing to revert the article from an ethnically neutral version to your Tajik-ethnicity-obsessed version despite the lack of consensus here for it, you appear to be the one engaging in WP:disruptive editing by Wikipedia's standards. You do not seem to have built a sound case, to my eyes.  You have made ad hominem attacks, thrown the word "vandalism" around irrelevantly, provided sources whose existence/relevance no one has been able to verify, disparaged the New York Times on the unjustified assumption that they didn't fact-check a major point of their article, and made some dubious arguments above based on original research and dubious-sounding synthesis. Your lack of respect for Wikipedia's collaborative guidelines galls me, but if you choose to believe that everyone who disagrees with your edits does so because they're secretly a "vandalist" or a "POV pusher", so be it.


 * The only way you might hope to redeem yourself at this point, IMHO, would be to log in with an account so we can start talking to you by a name rather than an IP-hopping number, and start providing some published sources that other editors can actually read and verify.


 * In case I have not made my own position clear: I don't care about the outcome of this dispute.  Zahir can be a Tajik, a Pashtun, or a little green man from Mars for all I care.  What I do care about is that the proper process is abided by and civility maintained. Understand? AtticusX (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So, your claim stand over BBC and the writings and sayings of a Professor and Afghanistan National Institute of Music or over those who are related with Ahmad Zahir? Dear friend, we already tried for 3 years ago to find a good description between Tajik and Pashtun senseless ethnicities but we did not came to a conclussion because those already banned Users and thousand of socks came again here and changed it to their own POVs. Noone wanted to ethnicise this article. At the beginning, we did not started with Pashtun or Turyalai or whatever. We used Afghan or a famous Persian singer from Afghanistan. Has that something to do with ethnicities? No, not. But when Pashtunists started to claim his not known origine (which can mostly be assumed by ordinery people beeing a native Persianspeaker, thus Laghmani) as Pashtun, of course, we looked for books who deal with his life. My parent´s have even private photos of Ahmad Zahir. He was a friend of my father and they always described him as a native Persianspeaker (Tajik). If you wish, I will post you some photos of him where my family and Ahmad Z. are sitting together for breakfast. Just give me your email address. And of course, the NYT just REPEAT a saying of a man. Just read the article again. From where have NYT it´s information otherwise? The other poet, professor and writer, Wasef Bakhtiar who write the biographgy of Ahmad Zahir will surely be added too, to these sources, once, he has finished his work. If you are not related with the subject, just keep out (no offense, bro).

Ps: Kitabtoon is also a Pashtun who missuse many sources. If you do not examine the sources you will have wrong informations on every article he has overworked. He even claims false things which are not used in any sources. Just ask User:Tajik who knows him better than anyone--84.59.184.224 (talk) 12:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: The NYT article is already used. His ethnicity, according to NYT who quotes the claim of a Pashtun bookseller from northern Afghanistan, Ahmad Zahir was of Pashtun background who sang mostly in Persian language (Dari)[3]. So I don´t understand your problem. The other sources are additions--84.59.184.224 (talk) 12:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) BBC doesn't say anywhere that Ahmad Zahir was a Tajik, 2) All your other sources are imaginary and cannot be verifiable, 3) For those who are familiar with Afghanistan related issues, they very will know that Wasef Bakhtari is a Tajik ethno-centric writer and even his source for the moment is imaginary and not verifiable.
 * 4) Ahmad Zahir was a Persian speaker, which means Farsi was his first language. So was Mohammed Zahir Shah. It doesn't necessary mean that they were Tajiks. (Ketabtoon (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC))

Ps: Wasef Bakhtiar is through marriage of his two family members related with the Zahir family and he write the biography with their co-working. What will you say now? --84.59.184.224 (talk) 16:48, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

How do you come up with the claim that the BBC reference does not mention him as Tajik? Before making such claims, go and take a lesson in Persian language (10s grade) and than come back and try again to read it.--84.59.184.224 (talk) 17:00, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's Google Translate's English translation of your Persian BBC reference. It does not appear to mention his ethnicity. AtticusX (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned, the BBC article doesn't mention anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. He really didn't think of Google translation when he was adding a false source as a reference (at least he was trying to fool those who can't read Persian). This should tell us a lot about the IP's other imaginary sources.  (Ketabtoon (talk) 05:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC))


 * So, to recap:
 * An anonymous, IP-hopping editor overwrites various sourced content with arguments that Zahir was a Tajik. The IP's version mentions Tajiks and Tajikistan more than 15 times.
 * IP editor cites exclusively unverifiable sources, including offline books whose titles do not appear to exist in any online catalog, and a BBC article written in Persian which he claims as his "main proof", which, when roughly translated, does not appear to say anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity.
 * His edits are repeatedly reverted by several editors including myself. The IP editor reacts with hostility in his edit summaries and on this talk page, calling everyone he interacts with a liar, a vandal, a POV-pusher, or "a fascist and a Pashtun nationalist".
 * The version repeatedly overwritten by the IP made no mention of Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. A NYT source that calls Zahir "an ethnic Pashtun", unambiguously contradicting the IP's claims of Tajik ethnicity, is disparaged by the IP on the premise that basically the NYT couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.
 * IP editor states that Zahir was "a friend of my father", which if true, would probably make his editing of this article a conflict of interest.
 * Appearing successively as 94.219.196.21, 109.43.223.203, 84.59.184.224, and 88.69.17.138, the IP-hopping editor reverts the article to his version 7 or 8 times, despite the lack of consensus or support of any kind in the ongoing discussion above. He continues to fling mud at everyone.
 * Today, the article gets full-protected following one of the IP editor's reverts. So now the article is stuck on his version until a higher-up intervenes, or for 5 days.  Sigh. AtticusX (talk) 06:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

To end the dispute, I will add two other reliable sources which clearly mentions that he is a Pashtun of Mohammadzai tribe.


 * "The rise of pop singer Ahmad Zahir, son of Prime Minister Abdul Zahir-himself of a prominent Pushtun family, further contributed..." (Culture and customs of Afghanistan By Hafizullah Emadi)


 * "The singer Ahmad Zahir is a good example of the process. He was from an aristocratic family (Mohammadzai), and his father, Dr Zahir, was for a short time Prime Minister." (Can you stop the birds singing? By John Baily)

Let's hope we can move on. (Ketabtoon (talk) 07:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC))


 * Thanks for the additional sources confirming Pashtun ethnicity.
 * Looking through previous comments on this talk page, I've just realized something. Either there are a lot of hostile, offensive editors claiming to have close family connections to Zahir, or the disruptive IP editor we've been discussing has been active here under the guise of various IPs and accounts for over three years. AtticusX (talk) 08:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

@Articusx

maybe you did not understood the BBC source. I would appreciate it if you would reread it and see Ahmad Zahir in the article´s context. Now, rational thinking is asked. The article self do not call him as Tajik, yes, he has mentioned as Afghan, a citizen of Afghanistan, but in the context of Tajik-Persian culture, identity, civilisation and language.

Ps: Do you know that Wasef Bakhtiar self was once known as a Muhammadzai? You claim is worthless, Ketabtoon.--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The above IPs from the Frankfurt area of Germany are connected to  (a.k.a. User:AFGstyla20, User:Germany2008, User:Šāhzādé, User:Draco of Utopia, User:Tajik-Professor and so on .........)--Nasir Ghobar (talk) 00:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)