Talk:Ahmadiyya Muslim Community/Archive 1

Solution to the Numbers Issue
Have u guys ever checked out the "International Baait" page and seen the "List of New Converts"? In total, that's about 160 million new converts. Thus, 200 million seems plausible —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tp 2k7 (talk • contribs) 02:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

This Article Sucks
Ive been reading and editing this article for a while now. It seems as if it is written by biased Muslims against the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, in other words, anti-Ahmadiyya. Also, it just sucks. A more systamatic and organized view of the Community is at alislam.org not this article. For example, the numbers issue and also the fact that it repeatedly calls Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as just Messiah and Mahdi when he also said to be the re-incarnation of Krishna (Lecture Sialkot) and Matrya Buddha (future Buddha) and Second Advent of Noah, Moses, Muhammad, Adam and more and second advent of the Third Son of Zoroaster (Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad). It needs work. Then also, why is there only a section for "EUROPE" in the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community article? Why not other continents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tp 2k7 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I CAN GIVE YOU THE PROOF IN QURAN "Sura 36 YaSin " THE FUTURE PROPHET IN ISLAM
I can give you the proof in Quran "Sura 36 YaSin " start from Ayat-15 when Allah sent two prophets Moses and Haroon than Issa talk about Jessus and his peoples, than Ayat-21 starts future prophet but he will bring same sharia which is Mohammad Rasool Allah SWA PBUH gave us and He will declare follow all prophecies after Ayat-30 and Ayat-50 fighting and blast same thing in Sura 44 Al-Dukhan Ayat-11, 12 and "Sura 36 YaSin " is totaly for present christians (Romans) so the last Imam will be for christians and also for Muslims but according to Sura YaSin only one religion kingdom on earth Islam please read Quran carefully there is all life in this great book from start to end of humanity and earth each sentence has long life hidden but its not open to every one some of you read present and some of you consider is a past...

'''There is no Jesus or Issa will come that hadith false and formatted by Jews & Christians because they were still waiting when Issa with them they didn’t accepted and they populated wrong concepts in Islam. Allah already clearly mention in Quran All past prophecies died. This fitna formatted by Jews & Christians for future when the time will come Muslims will clash each others'''

Follow the Hadith if Hadith matched with Quran then is okay other wise so many termites they changed the Hadithes since written by none Arabic peoples after 250 year and after them after they changed for own things and matter purposes and so many Jewish convert into Islam just for only change the track of Islam Allah already say's in Quran 4:46 and 2:75 and please leave the tombs for pray when you can leave the tomb for pray your heart will be convert into pure Islam because those who said they are wali Allah actually they are pure termites in that regions to change the Islam into new format…Leave the tombs for prayer that is the biggest shirk today facing humanity you called Wali Allah they diverted the peoples from real Islam into new religions they diverted from them into 73 sects and peoples they pray on that tombs that is the biggest shirk today’s, leave those tombs which is you called Wali Allah they were not Wali Allah just follow the Rasool Allah S.A.W. PBUH rules and Quran leave them all dead peoples you called Wali Allah then your hearts will be convert into pure Islam sweetness and get mercy from Allah.

Today’s dajjal fitna is combined of all previous Prophecies time fitnas and present Muslim peoples also adopted and emerged into those fitnas now they called this is part of life or secular life so who is first for Azab-e-Allah… kafir who were they already kafir or who were Muslims now they adopted kafir culture.

Dajjal is fitna and big lair presently its in your home can you stop watching movies I don’t think so, can you be able to stop cheating each others only for one day I don’t think so, can you share your facilities to other poor brothers for one day nop can you put hajjab on your eyes for one day nop, can you stop thinking make more money nop, did you give the food to poor person last 30 days nop, so you are materialistic and you are under siege by dajjal who created this atmosphere for you and who interrupt them they will destroyed physically and also mentally, your brains economically siege by yahood economists because you are fare from Islam.

Dajjal has one eye to look world one eye not spiritual eye like satellite cameras, GPS, Radars and media they are dajjal predator eye, dajjal heaven his own place like his countries and systems they are look like peaceful places he called them heaven but actually they are traps and take you in hell because these countries law against Islamic rules and who will effected by dajjal like dajjal killed them those Muslims get shahadeth (shaheed) that dajjal called hell but its not hell peoples get shahadet.

Zulkarnan Allah Salaam said (Allah mention in Quran) Dajjal will appear that time when Iron and Copper will fly on earth surface and Yajuj and Majuj (Gog and Magog) will fight each others, Now this is the time all flying machines dependant on copper and iron with out these elements not possible to fly on earth surface even cannot move.

Communism and Christianity (Yajuj and Majuj ) collapse each others when they strength down than Islam sun will rise in whole world not with these present Molvies educations, there will be new system will rise that system only for poor peoples and they will crush the both Communism and Christianize systems then poor peoples faith convert into Islam and churches will convert into Masjjid (Mosques). I don’t believe present Molvies, Ulma and Umma but soon you will also don’t believe them just believe on Quran and read if you don’t understand read again and read again Allah give you the right path Allah most merciful, Allah give everything who request from Allah.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammad Akram R (talk • contribs) 04:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Man, this whole article is a mess, Qadianiat has been referred to as a sect of islam in a place or two, where it isn't a sect. Muslim Ulamas have declared Qadianiat as an anti-muslim religion, the article isn't even neutral, did you just copied and pasted stuff from their so-called holy books? (which they won't even let ppl translate into english and other foreign languages.

BTW i did read that the Qadiani so-called prophet died while vomitting, in his latrine, having cholera, ... anyway he deserved it, a new prophet huh.. why don't these fools just study the Qur'an first and read what it says .... there can't be any prophets after the prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

Shouldn't the Khalifas have separate pages on them? &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:35, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think you are right. But I think the whole article needs to be fixed, it is very POV. I made some small changes as examples, but it needs much more work. IbnRushd 17:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree. Sentences like "Under his guidance the Ahmadiyya Community progressed at a remarkable speed in the propagation of Islam throughout the world building and running schools, colleges, hospitals, preaching centres, mosques, especially West Africa, also translating and publishing of Holy Quran in many languages. The Ahmasdiyya Community made tremendous in roads against the expansion of Christianity in West Africa from which it has never recovered." or "He successfully thwarted the designs those wishing to re-setablish the institution of Khalifat." are clearly POV, as are references to "Hazrat", "His Holiness", etc. - Mustafaa 18:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I have tried to make some changes as you requested - It was lifted from another source and perhaps some of the terminology got left in.
 * CORIN 29.11.2004 12.27

Sheesh! this sounds like it's been lifted right out of some "official" Ahmedi history --HussaynKhariq 21:33, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Hey! It most probably is. That's one place to go for source material, right? Please don't be frustrated; help make it NPOV. &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:16, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * Take a look at what I have done at Khalifatul Masih. What do you think? &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:54, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

I made some small changes, I hope they are right. IbnRushd 04:14, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NPOV'ing
Hi guys! I am an Ahmadi of the dallas Jamaat. I was very furious when I saw those two Anti-Ahmadhi sites! We really need to respond to those guys directly and try to sort out the facts from fiction!
 * Well, it's important that we represent different points of view, even those we disagree with. I sympathize, but as it stands we already have far more pro- than anti- sites, and people might say we were biased if we removed them. Everyking 00:19, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that the original article was just a plain copy (not even restatement, just copy-paste) of official Ahmadi information. We need to get to a more neutral statement--the aim, as I see it, is to have a complete picture, without just mouthing the offical Ahmadi line, but without badmouthing just for badmouthing sake on the Ahmadiyyah movement and any Ahmadis. Please help with that. &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:44, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Tasks

 * Move Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian?
 * NPOV Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
 * Qualifying population numbers. See below.
 * NPOV'ing Khalifatul Masih. Done. see Talk:Khalifatul Masih
 * Creating separate articles for each Khalifatul Masih.
 * I
 * II
 * III
 * IV
 * V


 * NPOV'ing article for each Khalifatul Masih.
 * I
 * II
 * III
 * IV
 * V


 * NPOV'ing remainder of article.

Numbers
Firstly, of course, the official numbers on this page need qualification. We can't just be repeating what's on the official website. Especially when the numbers at http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html contradict some of the leadership's own statements like at http://www.askislam.com/People/Caliphs/Answer_151.html.

What do folks say we do about this? &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:59, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

i think by boosting the number we can't justify our statement.you may contact me yousaf_air@hotmail.com


 * I think the way to do this is to simply put down what different people say. So, the official website lists the number at so many millions, but other sources give different numbers. IbnRushd 04:02, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that the link you give to the leadership's statement about the numbers is from 1984 whereas the one from the official website is the most recent. This would explain the apparent discrepancy.


 * The current figure of 100-200 Million isn't right. The site itself says 10's of Millions on one page and mentions millions in say . I'm going to use where it has "10 Million". I'll leave it for a day to stay within 3RR. Would have been nice for the other editor to focus on facts instead of adding that ridiculous word to the article. Ttiotsw 17:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Especially when the numbers at http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html contradict some of the leadership's own statements like at http://www.askislam.com/People/Caliphs/Answer_151.html.

One thing however you might not have noticed is like the 10 million figure that non-Ahmadis state, the Q&A you've cited states in the link that it is 20+ years old; currently it is acknowledged by Ahmadi leaders that the numbers are around 200 million. Just an FYI. Jedi Master MIK 03:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Persecution
Under the description of persecution the article says "Under the guidance of Khilafat the Ahmadiyya machinated, intrigued and started campaigns of derision against the Pakistani Government which were met with fortitude, reminiscent of the early Muslims in Mecca." I do not know exactly what this means, but whatever it is it is very biased. IbnRushd 04:19, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * On the contrary. It is one POV trying to correct (or maybe sabotage) another. This might explain it: . &mdash;iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 06:01, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

I think the numbers issue is incredibly delicate for ahmadis. The fourth khalifa affirmed very forcefully that all doubts over the huge numbers of converts were unfounded. Nevertheless, the numbers of converts seem to have fallen suddenly and dramatically under the very stringently accurate administration of the fifth khalifa. My own feeling is that we should avoid the numbers issue entirely unless we have some unbiased source which can present empirical data to us. Moosa Qureshi.

Ahmedi vs Qadiani
The term Ahmedi is used for people following the teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. This applies both the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement as well as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. The term Qadiani is used to reffer to people living in the Qadian reagion of India. this term has come to be used in a derogatory fashion by some mainstream Muslim sects. Both Ahmedi sects calim to be followers of Islam not the recently concoted term Qadianism. Nazli 14:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up Needed
This article needs significant changes: many pov statements need fixing, numerous rambling remarks need to be removed, valid refrences need to be added, restructuring of the article is also required. All this is likely to ruffle a few feathers. I would appreciate any comments, suggestions and help in this regard. Nazli 08:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to help clean up the references and such. I've already begun, although I've started out of order (so reference 1 appears after previous references.  Is this alright?  -- Sohail Mirza 22:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please do go ahead. Nazli 04:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made a few citation/reference changes, implementing citation templates. I hope there's no objection to using this format for the references section. -- Sohail Mirza 08:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

muslims still...
though they may be declared non muslims by the other muslims, ahmadis still count as muslims since they themselves argue they are muslims, simply a new movement in it. Similar to Jesus(as) and his disciples, they were jewish just anew movement in judaism. as such christians could be called jewish, but they say they are not. if they said they were jewish and other jewish people didnt would they still not be called jewish? Aeom Mai

I think you're in the right here. Shias and Sunis and all the other branches excommunicate each other and each other's beliefs, it still doesnt mean either are non muslims... Tram Ngo

This article is under new religous movements; not new religions.If everyone in the world called you fat, and you were skinny, does that make you fat?--AnnonD 04:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

What a preposterous argument! If God and Islam says you are non-Muslim because you go agains the Qur'an, does that make you Muslim?

You mean if the Mullahs fatwas say you are non-Muslim because they say/think you go against the Quran, does that make you Muslim? Jedi Master MIK 05:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

History and Caliphs
I felt the successors to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad deserved their own section, so am separating them from the general history of the Community. I feel all general history of the Community should fall under the History section, whereas only a summary of the Community's history under a particular Caliph and their personal lives/history as individuals should be filed under their sections. - Sohail Mirza 09:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes
1. The official / legal name of the movement is 'Ahmadiyya Muslim Community'. It is absurd to remove the term 'muslim' from the name of the movement. The fact that they may or may not be considered within the fold of Islam by some other Muslims is clearly mentioned.

2. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's legal name does not include the term 'Qadiyani'. This term has acquired derogatory connotation over the years.

Nazli 03:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Continued POV and poor English
There's still much POV in this article. For instance, the section "Organization and Size" talks about "Ahmadiyyat the true Islam". In general, this paragraph seems to have been written by a person who doesn't have perfect command of the English language. It says "jammat" instead of "the Jamaat", and also mispells "satellite". Darkeyedmuslim 19:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed about non-NPOV here. Also, many of the articles that are anti-Ahmadiyya are against both Ahmadiyya groups, and are duplicated in both this page and the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement page.  Really, they should all be moved to the general Ahmadiyya page, unless they specifically relate to teh AMC presented here.  I think this article and hte LMC article can be substantially cleaned up so that they define the differences between the two, and the main ahmadiyya page can deal with all of the groups as a whole, in context with the rest of Islam and other religions with which they interact, etc. --Christian Edward Gruber 21:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I had created a draft page, but the problems on this page are so egregious, adn so easily solved (a lot of duplication with Ahmadi) that it doesn't seem even wroth doing up a draft. --Christian Edward Gruber 22:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Fatwa section
Don't quite know why but the section comes off as a bit one sided in tone and appearance. If someone does want to show the view of the orthodox Muslims more so than how it was mentioned in the introduction and later references to persecution, someone who is better (and less biased) with it should word it better. And just a thought but it should probably also have a better placement, maybe in the history section or right after; the latter consideration would be good because it would be in place with the other actions taken against the Movement and why. Jedi Master MIK 15:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ahmad.png
Image:Ahmad.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 19:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya Firsts
Third party cites will be needed for all claims in this section. Otherwise, they'll have to be removed. --Rob (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)