Talk:Ahmed Barzani

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.--KGV (Talk) 05:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected
I've full-protected this page due to the protracted edit-warring, for three days. I'd appreciate if the proponents would discuss their changes here rather than reverting madly back and forth. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tony, i was not edit warring with him. I was merely reverting his vandalism. I have already engaged in a lengthy discussion with him, to no avail. Just take a look at his talk page. I have repeatedly asked him to provide a first hand source that Barzani was Muslim and then remove it, but instead of doing so, he ignores my suggestion and simply deletes the statement, even though it is credibly sourced. There is nothing more to be discussed here. If the CIA source is uncredible as he claims it is, the onus is on him to prove it. He cannot simply make unsubstantiated claims and remove sourced information. As such, i request you to restore the article as it formerly was and block him for intentionally vandalizing the article. The article has already been vandalized a lot of times in the past few months already. He has repeatedly ignored my warnings and my suggestions, without any consideration. You have to block him. It will be a mockery of the rules otherwise. Joyson Noel (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My reason for protection in lieu of blocking the IP is that he has, numerous times, pointed out a source - the book that he's stated makes this claim. That suggests there *is* a source, and I'd like to see further discussion as to whether that is a source instead of just reverting him and calling it vandalism. To me, this is a content dispute, and should be dealt with here, rather than through multiple reverts. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What about the CIA link? Why should that stay out? Simply because he claims that it is uncredible without providing any proof. It's a credible link through which anyone and cross check and verify the fact that he was a Christian. Also, i did engage in a fruitless discussion with him.
 * I was very reasonable with him. All i asked him to provide a first hand online account stating that Barzani was Muslim, and even offered to remove the statement myself if he did so. However, he has not actually provided a proper reference that i could check and verify. Instead, he simply keeps deleting the statement and keeps telling me to read a particular book and find it out for myself. Come on! I'm not arguing that this isn't a content dispute, but anyone can see that it's technically, Vandalism.
 * Now, does he really think that i have that book with me, or even if i did, does he really think that i have the required time to read the book and find it out for myself?
 * If he is disputing it, then it's upto him to provide me an online reference through which i can verify that he was a Muslim. Otherwise, it will stay. There is nothing more to be discussed here. Any reasonable person will agree with what i have just said.
 * As such, i request you to reconsider and do what is required. Joyson Noel (talk) 06:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand our requirements for references. Books are perfectly acceptable as references - there are probably millions of cites on Wikipedia to books. I've gone to the library to find references for articles because they aren't available online; that's not an issue. If there's a book available that counters the CIA reference, then it should at least be mentioned in the article that there's some debate over whether or not the conversion to Christianity occurred, with references to *both* sources. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The book itself seems to have been easy enough to find: its page at its publisher's - a major publisher, to boot - and on Google Books. I can't find any mention of Ahmed Barzani by searching the book itself, though, so he may have been discussed on some of the secondary pages - unless the IP is confused about which Barzani is being discussed here. I'd like to hear from the IP, personally, and will leave a note to that end. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My Solution
Tony, i apologize if have i failed to make myself clear, but it seems that you've misunderstood my position on this. I never claimed that books are not allowable as references. However, in his case, i asked him to provide an online credible reference (i.e, a first hand account) through which i could cross check and verify that Barzani was a Muslim. This is for one reason. Due to his apparent dishonesty, i do not trust him. If he could so boldly lie that i'm a Christian convert, even when my userpage makes it apparent that i'm not, then what is to stop him from making up offline references to that book with fabricated quotes?

But now that's no longer a problem. I have figured out a solution to this. Even if he provides a reference with fabricated quotes, i can still find out if the quotes he provided are real or not. All i have to do is copy-paste the quotes into google book search. Even if the particular page is unavailable for preview, a part of the quote will still be visible as captions. If it's not there, then it's obviously fabricated.

So, here's my deal. All he has to do now is to provide me a reference as to where in that book is Barzani's religious beliefs mentioned. Let him just write it down here word for word, along with the page number. That shouldn't be a problem if it is there, as he claims it is. Joyson Noel (talk) 17:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Just so you know, i did a little search of the book, "Mustafa Barzani and the Kurdish Liberation Movement" through google search. Even though it's a limited preview, i still tried my level best searching for any hint of Barzani's faith. The book as the name suggests, is a biography of Ahmed Barzani's brother, Mustafa and details the role he played in the Kurdish uprisings in Iraq. My search revealed no mention of his religious beliefs. The closest it comes to giving any hint of his religious belief's is in page 33, but even this is vague. During a conversation he says, "I want to please Allah and satisfy his conscience". Even Arab Christians and Jews use the term "Allah" for god. You could argue that he is a Kurd, but the term Allah is used even by many predominantly Muslim peoples, including the Kurds. So, all this proves is that he was a theist, but does not make his religious orientation clear. However, i don't dismiss the possibility that it could be mentioned in one of those unviewable pages. Joyson Noel (talk) 17:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have asked the IP to come in and discuss specifically where the references come from in the book. It's a matter of the IP actually noticing the messages now. Tony Fox (arf!) 00:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So, how long should i wait for him to respond? Joyson Noel  Holla at me  11:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, give the guy some time, for pete's sake - there's nothing earth-shattering about this situation that requires action NOW NOW NOW. It's protected for another day or so; if we haven't heard from the IP by then, then we can revert and work from there. Okay? Tony Fox (arf!) 15:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * lol. Chill, dude! I just wanted to know whether it's OK to revert the edit once the page protection is over, in case he does not respond by then, or should i wait longer for him to respond. That's it. I was not demanding an immediate response. I understand that the situation has been incredibly frustrating for you, and i don't intend to further aggravate you. It's just a question. Relax! Joyson Noel  Holla at me  18:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you had to deal with my coworkers you'd be snappish too. =P Tony Fox (arf!) 21:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With no response from the anon editor, I've reverted back to the last cited version. Further reversion and edit-warring will be met with more protection and blocks if necessary. Discuss first, please. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Semiprotected
So much for assuming good faith. Semiprotected for a month. IP: if you want to make changes, discuss, don't edit-war. (For the record, it's multiple IPs, so blocks likely won't do a lot of good.) Tony Fox (arf!) 00:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is going nowhere
We're not getting anywhere with the back-and-forth. I'm going to start an RFC and hopefully draw some more attention. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. Please do so. Moreover, send him a message letting him know that. Joyson Noel  Holla at me  16:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Evaluation of sources to determine the subject's religion
Two editors have differing sources and interpretation of those sources regarding the religious beliefs of the article subject; the main bone of contention is whether Ahmed Barzani converted to Christianity, as some sources indicate. The references presented by both editors appear to be split as to this case. The questions to be answered by this RFC are: validity of the references provided, and how best to approach the subject's religious beliefs. Copious discussion can be found above on the talk page. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyone who is interested can refer the section entitled "Sources". Joyson Noel  Holla at me  16:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Tony, you can remove the tag. I accept a compromise on this one. Joyson Noel  Holla at me  16:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I'm going to let this run for a while and see what other editors have to say. It's better to have more opinions on a contentious issue - that way, we have a better consensus to work with in the article. I do appreciate your accepting a compromise position, though - hopefully some other folks will drop in and affirm that being the best route to take here. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, Tony. I'm OK with that. Joyson Noel  Holla at me  17:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No response, no complaints, we'll just go with what we've got and call it close enough, I suppose. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, so I'm looking at the two sources here, the first source outright says he converted to Christianity whereas the second source doesn't really says anything about his religion besides he grew up tolerant of other religions. Abstrakt (talk) 00:32, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

♦The CIA document does not provide an author and it does not reference the claim. All it says is, "The first of the major Barzani revolts took place in 1931, when Sheikh Ahmed, announcing his conversion to Christianity succeeded in defeating a number of Kurdish tribes as well as regular Iraqi troops..." There is no record of such an announcement. It is a single source that could have come from anywhere or just bad intelligence at the time. The other sources specifically mention that he was of the Naqshbandi order and that he was a religious leader. Multiple sources vs one source, could mean that the one source was wrong since that source cannot be verified (as of now) but Barzani's family can be contacted for such information. Nevertheless, if his religious background is disputed then he shouldn't be called anything and if necessary it be noted that information about his religion is in dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.13.70 (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

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