Talk:Aiden/Archive 1

Untitled

 * Please consider that allmusic (generally the turn-to page for music on wikipedia) lists emo as one of the band's styles here, and the only editors in objection are anonymous single-purpose editors unhappy with the genre. We've debated in length in the past over the band's genre, and finally just cited a credible source that says "Aiden is this". Until a credible source is cited that says explicitly "Aiden is not emo," the genre will remain on the article. --EndlessVince 17:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

POV and Durogatory
"pop punk attitudes with mall goth aesthetics" is someones POV and very durogatory. What would you think today if The Misfits were to be a new band TODAY? Would you call them MALL GOTH? I think this is wrong and needs serious editing. This band is trying to show a stage presence of Horror Rock. Much like as if TSOL were to walk out on stage in Skeleton Coveralls (WHICH THEY DO!). 198.189.164.206 20:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)CRC

Mall goth/kindergoth asethetics seems like an acurate descrpition, the members of the band fit the cliche of what is described as "mall goth".

To compare a pop punk band to the Misfits and TSOL is a little silly. The group's music has nothing in common with other Horror Punk bands. - Deathrocker 11:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Facts
The fact is that punk (in any form) has been mainstream since the 80's. It's not a debate. There is no such thing as underground. There is no such thing as originality. Aiden is a band who has played shows, and made albums. Those are the facts, and that's all wikipedia is for. Your judgment is not important. Influencing the reader's opinion is not the point. It is not a review. It's a wikipedia entry. --Zach Hammond 22:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * calm down dear, its only a wiki*
 * A pretty poor one, honestly all this article needs to say is that they're a band from yada yada, that plays so and so music, has put out so and so albums, has toured with yada yada. Almost everything else doesn't belong here. that's all I'm saying. But on the other hand, I don't care about this band, so I don't care about the article.--Zach Hammond 21:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

MUSTARD
Okay so, I think I cleared up the NPOV issue. As far as the Trivia goes, I'd feel comfortable deleting all of it, and down the road adding the relevant pieces to an article on Die Romantic, or music videos, or something. Discussion? --EndlessVince 21:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Biggest Songs
A list of top songs is very welcome, if it's cited and verifiable by referencing lists such as a Billboard Top 100 list. Also, "Fan Favorite" mentions can get dangerous, as eventually all their songs might be listed as favorites. It's best to stick to the facts by citing a source. --EndlessVince 04:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mallgoth
The article on Mallgoth has been deleted. It now redirects to Mansonite. There's no reference anywhere for Aiden being mansonites. A google search for mallcore Aiden finds no references of any value. Most of what google finds reads something like "fuck their hot topic mallcore goth bullshit," which has no place. Moreover, the wikipedia article on mallcore does not cite its references and is poorly written. For now, I'm deleting the mallcore/mallgoth claim. Before changing it back, please discuss it here. --EndlessVince 19:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Mallgoth/mallcore "culture" and Mansonite culture are somewhat related; if it was meant as just Mansonite instead of mallcore/mallgoth then it would have said that, but that isn't what the detractors of the band have stated. As a fan of course you'd like to cover up one of the main criticisms of the band, but please understand this isn't a fan profile, its an encyclopedia and in the context of the criticism section (as well as NPOV) it is in the correct place.
 * First, I need to restate that I've never listened to the band, nor will I ever be a fan. But this article isn't going anywhere and it's needed some work since I stumbled on to it while cleaning up Washington music articles. I understand what mallgoth/mallcore/mansonite "culture" is. I'm not covering up the main criticism of the band. The criticism in the article is only NPOV and appropriate if it's cited, which I tried to do but couldn't find any places to cite that support your claim of detractors' criticism. The articles on all three said criticisms are very poor articles to mention in the article anyway. Please cite a credible source that says Aiden is mallcore, and I'll let the issue rest. I'm also posting this on Deathrocker's talk page to request a reply (as he, in my experience, tends to be somewhat noncommunicative).--EndlessVince 20:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Picture
In order to improve this article, we definitely need a picture. Can anyone find a decent picture of Aiden? DeeJayJayJay 20:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

how about these http://mhuntting.photosite.com/~photos/tn/595_1024.ts1098762205109.jpg http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/AQUA/PS195~Aiden-Posters.jpg http://seattlepi.com/dayart/bands/aiden.jpg http://a437.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/40/l_898792b5cab0f0e646b40ad5110d4b34.jpg

i made that one http://victoryhardcore.com/aiden/magcovers/ME0407CVR1-p1.jpg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.69.85.3 (talk • contribs).

Drew likes balls?
whoever wrote "DREW LIKES BALLS", please dont do it anymore. thats what your userpage is for. --Buf Sabres Fan 02:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This message is to the idiot who wrote the article. Aiden write about death beacause the wil's (the singer) mate commited sucide(according to kerrang). You can't say that trivium are better than aiden. Trivium USED to be my favourite band before i got fed up about matt heafy goin on about how amazing they are and how he F**Ks all the groupies(no one cares). Thier new album (the crusade) isn't even that good.

Debate
Please stop the "Horror Rock" edit war. Okay, so the band may or may not be horror rock. Without actually investigating and offering my thoughts on Aiden's being Horror Rock or not, I'll give my two cents. The Beatles could have said they were gangsta rap, but that wouldn't make them gangsta rap. The band can say whatever it wants, but if the music doesn't fit the wikipedia definition of the genre, then the band shouldn't be stated as such. Or maybe we could be a little more neutral, and say that the band labels themselves as horror Rock, but actually yada yada yada. Whatever. Just quit it.--EndlessVince 04:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been the 1 putting that Aiden are Horror Rock. Why? Go on Aiden's official website, Aiden.org. It states that the band call their music Horror Rock. So why is it being deleted when it is a fact? Regardless of whether or not someone thinks it's Horror Rock or not the fact is the band calls their music Horror Rock and that's a fact.


 * It matters less what Aiden says their music is, and more whether or not the wikipedia definition of Horror Rock applies. If it does, grand. Does it?
 * Also, Please stop changing it until this is resolved. Thank you. --EndlessVince 16:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok so maybe you have a case for the genre thing...but Aiden calling themselves Horror Rock is true so it should not be deleted, regardless or whether you think they're wrong or not.
 * I think the current revision is a fair compromise, as long as the phrase Horror Rock doesn't link to the the wikipedia article on Horror Rock. It appears the band's definition of the genre strays far enough away, that Aiden's article shouldn't refer to the article on Horror Rock. --EndlessVince 01:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't care if they call themselves Bubblegum Black Metal.. doesn't mean they play that style of music or that its even worth a mention. The bands most common shared influenced are that of MCR, A7X and Atreyu, the music they create is similar to those, NOT the description of horror rock.


 * Just because one of the members bought some Nu-Mi$fits merchandise from Hot Topic doesn't mean the band have anything in common with them musically. Have you heard their music? Seen their videos? Not horror rock at all. - Deathrocker 05:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * While I agree that the band's music isn't Horror Rock, it's of encyclopedic value to note that the band calls themselves horror rock, although their interpretation of the genre does not correspond with the most accepted definitions of horror rock. Everything in italics could actually be used in the article verbatim and satisfy all parties in a neutral fashion. --EndlessVince 20:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Aiden's music is very unique and although you can say it sounds like A7X...A7X are metal and Aiden is punk without a doubt. Atreyu use a lot of just straight-up screaming in their music whilst Aiden's is more melodic and is mostly singing. Can we at least have that the band call their music horror rock? I mean as far as I'm concerned, Aiden don't sound like Green Day or Blink-182, 2 of the most famous pop-punk bands so why are they allowed to be listed as pop-punk?


 * There is nothing unique about this band or their music at all, they are very much part of the 10 a penny nu-emo trend, with From First To Last, My Chemical Romance, etc. Read the article on punk rock, this band is very, very far from that style of music. They are also very far from the likes of the Misfits, Calabrese and Balzac, they are most certainly not a part of the horror punk or horror rock movement. It just seems like an attempt by the band and fans to suddenly try and distance themselves from this "21st century emo" tag, as it is on its way out.


 * It says alot that the band's common influences are Atreyu, A7X, and MCR. - Deathrocker 09:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * To clear things up on my position, I don't care about this band at all. In fact, all the dispute surrounded by this band has made me hate them. I don't have any interest in ever listening to them. I got involved with the article, however, because I care about Pacific Northwest bands in general. The first thing I did to this page was to categorize it as a Washington musical group, but now I'm just trying to make it into an acceptable wikipedia article. As it stands, it is not. --EndlessVince 01:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think Aiden sound like MCR or FFTL, or Taking Back Sunday or any of the other so-called 'emo' bands. Aiden are heavier, they portray a strong horror image and their music is just quite different from them basically. Anyways, I guess I'll settle for what's on the page now but they are definitely a punk band...maybe you misinterpreted what I said as meaning that they were a 70's-style punk rock band which they obviously aren't, I mean that they are definitely somewhere under the huge genre of punk, whereas A7X are heavy metal...for a punk band, Aiden are quite heavy and if you do say their influences are A7X, MCR and Atreyu, well it's obvious that they are not easy to classify. So, that is why it should be noted that they call their music horror rock instead of misleading people with Post-Hardcore, Pop-Punk or even emo, I believe someone put which is quite lame since no one seems to know what emo is anymore and just lump Aiden together with the other so-called 'emo' bands.

I think I've shown above, logically how the band do not play horror rock or have any connections to that scene at all, they are very much part of the nu-emo/pop Warped Tour movement. Regardless of the fact that Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy the only other person who has heard their music that seems to think they fall under this classification, seems to have a lack of knowledge on genre terminology as it is, exemplified by comments such as "Aiden are punk rock". - Deathrocker 17:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You can say in the article that the band's classification of horror rock is disputed. It is. But you've got to be neutral about it. What is your objection to the way that piece of the article was worded before you changed it back? As it is worded now it is POV. If that would be a more appropriate thing to get a consensus of, we can do that in a new survey.

I hope you wasn't referring to me, Deathrocker, as I did not say Aiden were punk rock...they definitely fall under the genre of punk rock though and no on can dispute that. Whether they're pop-punk, post-hardcore, they're some sort of punk band. Also, Anti-Flag and and NOFX are on the Warped Tour and you're saying that they're 'nu-emo/pop'? They are punk rock.


 * Anti-Flag are a hardcore band, and NOFX are skate punk... neither of which are punk rock. Also please try to sign posts with four tides, it makes it easier for people to follow who said what.


 * Take a look at the horror rock article, bands in that genre of music take musical influences from doo-wop and 50s/60s rock n' roll. Aiden however, take musical influence from current metalcore and post-hardcore bands, they clearly don't play the horror rock form of music. To have their genre as "horror rock" because the band have suddenly decided they want to distance themselves from bands that they play the same kind of music as ("21st century emo"), would be unencyclopediac addition and factually incorrect. It would be the equivelent of somebody trying to get the Marilyn Manson article changed to "gothic rock" regardless of the fact that his music doesn't have the characterists of that classification. - Deathrocker 19:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Skate Punk...well, anyone who's Skate Punk can also be classified as Punk Rock and NOFX are a punk rock/skate punk band. Anti-Flag, hardcore? Possibly...but also punk rock as some of their stuff does not sound like other hardcore music I've heard. Aiden are not emo...c'mon, they are slightly emotional hardcore punk, to use its full name (so as to distance itself from so-called 'nu-emo' like Taking Back Sunday or whatever). Aiden's music is really hard to classify but that doesn't automatically make it nu-emo...the Warped Tour has punk rock bands on...Hardcore falls under the genre of Punk Rock, Pop-Punk falls under the genre of Punk Rock, Emo falls under the genre of Punk Rock, Horror Rock/Punk falls under the genre of Punk Rock. Aiden are not emo cause they're on there...you can call 'em Horror Rock, Emocore, Pop-Punk, Post-Hardcore because they take bits and bobs from each of those styles but c'mon...nu-emo? Give me a break, Aiden are nothing like them...going back to that thing about being influenced by A7X...A7X are metal so that pretty much proves that Aiden shouldn't be just lumped together with the other '21st century emo' bands...

Hardcore is the same as hardcore punk which is punk. and post-hardcore is an offshoot of hardcore. and the other two offshoots of hardcore punk are screamo and emo. so either way, we're talking punk here. punks a huge genre, they're punk. we're just trying to debate what type of punk, if everyone's acknowledged that emo, post hardcore, and hardcore ARE punk (check the wiki articles if you don't believe me: Post-hardcore Hardcore Punk Emo Screamo) and that therefore aiden ARE punk, we can move on. I think that if we were going to pin Aiden's genre down to a specific style, then we already would have. I think that Post-hardcore, Hardcore, Pop-punk and Emo should be listed, and add somehwere on the page that Aiden consider themselves horror rock although they do not fit many of the genres main criterias and it may be a bid to distance themselves from the "emo" tag and at the biegin ning of th article we should just change it to "Aiden is a rock band from Seattle, Washington". And yeah, I do agree with the point that that Marilyn Manson shouldn't be Goth just because they dress as Goths, although Mansonites are now a recognised type of Goth... --Gpmuscillo 11:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we just put both to satisfy all? SpitefulxCheerio 00:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)Chris

HORROR ROCK NOT SCREAMO/EMOCORE
The band themselves call themselves a horror rock band because they are heavily influenced by The Misfits, and their songs that are not Horror oriented are punk anthems. Plus, They do not suck, they know how to play, they are signed to a record label, and those who say they suck are jealous. Once again, THEY ARE HORROR ROCK. Alternative Press also acknowledges them as a Horror Rock band. There is a big reason too why they named themselves after the young boy from THE RING. 198.189.164.206 20:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)CRC
 * Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to...) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes&mdash;they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. Stifle (talk) 13:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there any reason why someone has a problem with Aiden calling their music Horror Rock? Sounds like someone's just being annoying and not a person knowledgeable of the band cause if they were they'd know that Aiden call their music Horror Rock. So please stop editing it.
 * A band cannot define their genre, they are biased. The concensus of the majority of people define genre. Gopherbassist 03:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Horror Rock is probably the best way to describe them, in my opinion. Check out "hour of the wolf", a similar sounding band who is firmly in "horror rock" subgenre if there is any question.

Definitely not punk! please change--83.217.170.161 18:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The genre should be listed as post-punk. They're definitly not punk and they can't define their own genre.

i was wondering
On the taste of chaos bert invited wiL to come do a show with him and during that show wiL brought a rose for bert and then they kissed,maybe it means something maybe it dosent which i doubt thart there is anything going between those two but a couple of my friends say they were so i need info...now! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.171.147.241 (talk) 03:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Means nothing. They did that throughout the tour. And this page is to discuss improvements to the article.--Wehwalt 13:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

HEY!!!
Hey, how's about either unlinking each of the names to the same G-damn article, or createe NEW ARTICLES ON THEM!!!! JustN5:12 19:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion on Criticism

 * For everyone's edification, I requested feedback from others on the Criticism section, which I tend to delete, in full or part. Krator's response relates to that.--Wehwalt 19:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure where to write my third opinion, so I just made a new section.

Long paragraphs should be here on attribution, no original research, and NPOV, but WP:BULLSHIT just covers everything I want to say, so I just link there.

--User:Krator (t c) 19:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New Page
I'd like to start a new page, Does anyone know how to do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jhudoon (talk • contribs) 16:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Er, see Help:Starting a New Page.--Wehwalt 16:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

wiL/Wil
It's been bugging me for a while. How can the lead singer have the right to change the English language? Proper noun requires a capital letter or i'm oLDsONGSnEWsTEREO! OldSongsNewStereo 19:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Ask e.e. cummings or blink-182.--Wehwalt 20:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's your right to think that's annoying, I don't claim you anyway, but it's also his right to spell it that way. I don't support the idea that he change the English language, I think it's just his name, not that all the English language. Evy psyche 11:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Requests for Comment: Critisicm section
As a response to the request for comment over the inclusion or exclusion of this, I would say to leave it out. It is unreferenced, and quite trivial. -- Reaper  X  03:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's been added again. So until there's a proper majority of whether or not it stays, I'm deleting it from the page. It appears to be original research and has no citations, even though I'm not keen on this band myself. OldSongsNewStereo 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Here via RfC. I would disagree with the assertion that a criticism section is trivial, but there are no references and the section appears to be original research. Delete until some valid sources are found. Orphic 08:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I vote to include it--Slogankid 17:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It needs to stay out unless you put in some citations. WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:TRIV.--Wehwalt 18:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OK............
OK i want to get something very straight i have full evidenceofr all of this as i am a HUGE aiden/william control fan AIDEN WERE NEVER EMO emo is a label which died when my chemical romance said they didnt want the label and when afi shoved it to emo is now kids who dress a certain way and listen to a certain type of music aiden are huge in the emo scene BUT THEY ARE NOT EMO wiL francis said on warped tour "TELL ALL YOUR FREINDS THAT AIDEN ISNT SOME PUSSY ASS EMO BAND" these arnt my words but wiL of aidens words. i had the honour to meet him and discuss this with him if you look at there clothing in Nightmare Anatomy and Knives there is an obvious Horror Punk/Goth look. now the music may not have any gothic sound if you see our gangs dark oath there is an influence of hardcore punk, horror punk and post hardcore. nightmare anatomy looses the hardcore punk sound and comes to a very horror punk/post hardcore sound. now conviction i would describe that as alternative rock and i think you will all agree with me on that now Knives goes back to a very dark sound but not the nightmare anatome OGDO or conviction its just a new sound a punk rock sound which i cant label. now the reason why i am labelling them Goth very obvious reasons 1 wiL francis told me that he exepts the label because one the lyrics. 2 the look. 3 his personallity AIDEN IS A VERY HORROR MOVIE INSPIRED BAND A PUNK BAND WHO LOVES HORROR MOVIES

2 it says so on there my space

3 as soon as nightmare anatomy was reseased evidence says (AP podcast with wiL francis) that it was staple gunned to the underground goth scene

This is getting very aggravating. They have completely ditched their post-hardcore outfit. I believe they should be labeled as post-punk and horror punk. Horror punk should be their main genre NOT EMO. There's a difference.

Finally! Someone who agrees with me! RaikiriChidori 12:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC) Another thing to keep in mind: they are named after a character in the movie "The Ring". That just proves even more that they are horror punk. And they have kinda developed a post-punk sound to accompany it. Please listen to this.RaikiriChidori 12:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

on the bands myspace, they consider themselves: gothic, rock, and punk.--- A.7.x4ever

Criticisms
I deleted much of the criticisms paragraph because it was personal opinion turned into "some say", which violates WP:WEASEL. In addition, saying that Aiden got bottled does not describe criticism, it describes hooliganism.--Wehwalt 12:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Did WiL's mate commit suicide? [OnElOveinYouREyesNoWLooKAfrAid] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.59.106.29 (talk) 00:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

R.I.P John Beatz
I forgot...what happened to John Beatz... Didn't wiL watch him overdose or sumthing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.59.106.29 (talk) 23:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Not too informed myself but I read that while John was riding a bus the bus hit a patch of black ice and flipped. Beatz died from the injuries. Hope that helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.7.151.125 (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to merge WiL Francis, Angel Ibarra and Nick Wiggins articles
I've added a template proposing WiL Francis, Angel Ibarra and Nick Wiggins to be merged into this article, as there isn't much encyclopedic information in them, and most of the biographical information about the members contained poorly sourced or unsourced rumours (some of which are possibly libellous) which I have removed. — Snigbrook 22:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose. In view of the various new side projects, especially Wil's, I think they are independently notable.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I agree with Wehwalt.--Sambobgeldof


 * I'm removing the template. This article probably doesn't get much traffic, but if after four months only the nom favors it, then there's no consensus.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with emo
Why are so many people are like no, they are not emo! Now by the sounds of their lyrics they could be emo and to be honest whats wrong with being emo. Ok, a lot of people hate emos, but a lot of people hate gangsta rap, but you don't hear rappers going no, we not gangsta rap, we are something else and make up some random thing like you guys have done with 'horror rock'. What is that!

there's is nothing wrong with emo,the reason people deny it so much SHOULDN'T make them emo its fighting for the facts against fiction.how should 'looks' make them the sub-genre of hardcore punk or indie-emo.its a genre!will people stop saying 'when a band denys it as well as everyone else that has to make them emo',ITS A SUB-GENRE OF HARDCORE PUNK!!!! just because they sing about 'death' does NOT make them the same genre as cap'n jazz,indian summer,wsunny day real estate,rites of spring or the get up kids. if they are post-hardcore well oh maybe its the other way round,MAYBE POST-HARDCORE IS A SUB GENRE OF EMO?????!!!!!!WTF??--Nirvanarox55 (talk) 14:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

LOOK aiden are not an emo band aiden have shoved the emo label down the toilet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.237.86 (talk) 11:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

WTF!! Horror Punk?
how the hell are they horror punk??? Just because they like the misfits, doesnt mean anything. I can sing metalcore and be influenced by lil wayne, it doesnt make me rap for listening to him it makes me metalcore cause thats my style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.243.199 (talk) 02:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement
I don't especially approve of the line in this article's opening paragraph - the one about the band's supposed "anti-Christian and antisemitic themes" - and I'd like to see it removed. But, if we must include it, I think we should change it to "antireligious themes" - this would be a more accurate expression of the band's philosophy, and also avoids the term 'antisemitism', which people might here mistake for a racist statement, rather than a religious one. Thoughts? 121.73.208.110 (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hey, 121.73.208.110 here, with a shiny new account. Since no one has weighed in on the subject either way in 4 days, I'm going to go with my first instinct and simply remove the line in question. If anyone objects, they can revert, but - if you do - please tell me why, so we can discuss the matter. Pantopoiesis (talk) 07:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)