Talk:Ain Shams University/Archive 1

Merger proposal
Faculty of pharmacy-ain shams university appears to contain info related to this school, could someone more familiar with the subject put them together. Thanks. -- ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk - Contribs) 12:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Faculty of pharmacy is one of the Faculties of Ain Shams University, it is not a School, it is the second university in Egypt, and one of the greatest and oldest universities in the Middle East, I'll try to merge.--Puttyschool (talk) 18:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand that the faculties are a part of the Ain Shams university, but there really isn't enough significant information about them to warrant separate articles. Most of the information at the Pharmacy and Medicine faculty articles is superfluous. As an encyclopedia we really don't need to document every little fact of a subject. I feel that the paragraph or two that are directly about the faculties would better serve the main Ain Shams article, which is kind of minimal as it is. I have added the Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine for merger. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 01:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment About the article Faculty of pharmacy-ain shams university, it would save a lot of time if you deleted it Upon creation using section Criteria_for_speedy_deletion or at least Verifiability and No_original_research. I recreated it again for the second time, using data from the faculty site, I’m not capable of writing a good article about pharmacy institutes, what I’m trying to do now, is to make it not bad.--Puttyschool (talk) 13:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll delete the redirect at Faculty of pharmacy-ain shams university after this discussion. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 19:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Regarding adding Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine for merge, let compare it with Harvard and recomend adding Harvard_School_of_Public_Health for merge, not only but with other schools that belong to Harvard, Wow. Then from a neutral point of view, the articles Ain Shams University, Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine, Ain Shams University Faculty of Pharmacy, and what will come later, all Needs enhancements to meet the current standards.--Puttyschool (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There are some differences between these pages and the ones about Harvard. The Harvard article is already very long, merging other articles to it would make that article worse. While the Ain Shams article is minimal, adding more information to it would be helpful. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 19:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Idonot know about the issue of merging of Faculty of Pharmacy but it is not related to the merging of the Faculty of medicine which contain many paragraphs not one or two, the headlines are made so that any one who wants to know the many srvices that available by the faculty as ragard medical, educational and scientific activities be available free and easy to access (some times the university server is not working well. with out any offenses the faculty of medicine merging should not be attached to the faculty of pharmacy which is also a big faculty having national and acitivities in research and education. Also the faculty of medicine has many graduates working allover the world that want to know its history and progress besides the national and international undergraduate and postgraduate students that seek education in it, with no offenses the wikipedia is full of article about many minor educational institute as many small high schools which serve a far more lesser numebr of services on the community or the national or inter national level.--Ashashyou (talk) 06:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Someone (I think he was playing) wrote a very bad article about Ain Shams University Faculty of Pharmacy, Roll back the history ot this article you will never imagine, which leads to the revision of all articles, related to Ain Shams University, now you can judge then enhance them. For me I don’t know too much about the details of education in Egypt, but I'm sure that Ain Shams University is not a school. I tried to merge, but I found that you will need to write about more than 50 faculty, collage and school that Belongs to this University to develop a good article, by the way most of them are related to the Faculty of medicine. What I’m trying to do with Ain Shams University Faculty of Pharmacy is giving it a nice look, till someone from this faculty handles it. --Puttyschool (talk) 13:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I commend you for expanding the article but we shouldn't have someone from the faculty working on the article, that would present a conflict of interests. Ashashyou, most of the lists of information at Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine is inappropriate for the encyclopedia, the only information that should be merged is the first paragraph and the sentence about the annual conference. It's unfortunate that the school server doesn't work well, but we are not a webspace provider and we're not here to provide information to prospective students. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 19:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear User:Ashashyou Today I was navigating all sites of Ain Shams University all are fine!!!--Puttyschool (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Since you both are against merging, then the articles need to be severely reduced, particularly all the lists at faculty of medicine page. While the first paragraph at the pharmacy page isn't neutral at all and should be removed. And the pages should be tagged with at least Unreferenced, if nothing more. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 19:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I changed the first paragraph of Ain_Shams_University_Faculty_of_Pharmacy, It was from the Official web site, added in references, and can be treated as a government report, but also I like neutral points of views. also I think I wikify it. can you please check?
 * For the lists in Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine Every item is a small school or institutes related to this faculty, also some departments are located in deferent place. The school size is big more than enough, which is common for government faculties in Egypt, and I don’t know how to reduce it. I think if you collect all place in a single area, it will be near to the size of a small city.--Puttyschool (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed the information copied from the website. Such information can never be neutral and is actually copyright violation and we just can't have it. Basically I have turned the article into a stub. When I was suggesting a merge, this is the amount information I was speaking about. The lists of information at the medicine page is simply just unencyclopedic. If you remove it, you get a similarly sized article as the pharmacy page. Articles of these size would be rather easy to merge. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 05:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don’t understand your aim, is it supposed that I re-invent information about a governmental faculty to meet your points, I got what a government want to say about this faculty then re-wrote it without violating copyright, even if we cut and paste this site, we are not violating copyright, this is a published policy of a government, and the university is out of completion, it offers every year 2000/(5 years) free scholar ships, and all scholar ships are free, is this information is un-encyclopedic, also you removed the departments, check wiki pages, you will find a lot of listed universities, each one reserve a page at the same time it is not more than a single department in this faculty, Is it supposed that the user must navigate more than 5 hour in the sites of Aim Shams University to get the information you removed? can you explain for me using this example Harvard_School_of_Public_Health and the official web site?
 * About the Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine only it needs to write about each of the listed items, and this will make it a very long Article, for example the El-Demerdash hospital as I can remember is the second or third hospital in Egypt and serves every Day more than 10000 patient, All services are free and they provide medicines for free, Isn’t this information is un-encyclopedic as you think, Isn’t this deserves a single line till someone expand this line? The one who revised this document in the past, was he wrong?
 * So what you are trying to prove, are we only wasting time to justify your request of merge?


 * Dear D. Trebbien Can you please provide me with a list of points; easy to understand, to follow, in order to finish up with this miss? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puttyschool (talk • contribs) 13:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC) Sorry--Puttyschool (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Puttyschool. This is confusing the situation: in the United States, a faculty of a university is a group of professors and administrative professionals who work in a single building on campus. Here, it appears that Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine started as a separate school (indeed three years earlier), and later moved into Ain Shams University. Also, Ain Shams University formed out of separate schools that joined together and re-located to the same campus. (Is this correct?)
 * I think, some separate schools (medicine, engineering, agriculture), then they created the university in 1950 with more schools (main campus) and put them together in an entity, after this they add new campuses as Khalifa Mamoun, Women's College, Specific Education, Education, Pharmacy.--Puttyschool (talk) 03:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Therefore, I do not think that Ain Shams University Faculty of Medicine should be merged into Ain Shams University.
 * Also, I do not think that Ain Shams University Faculty of Pharmacy should be merged into Ain Shams University either, because it says that the Faculty of Pharmacy is not even in the same location as Ain Shams University.
 * I will try to research some more.
 * « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 00:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is the Google Maps search for the Faculty of Medicine. (I found this really helpful.) Also, the main part of Ain Shams University is two inches northeast on that map view. « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 01:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear D. Trebbien
 * This is not the main issue, please rollback the history of this article Ain_Shams_University_Faculty_of_Pharmacy, tell me what was wrong with my last edit. Also I tried to merge it, when I searched the sites; I found it in a different campus, with 2500 undergraduates.
 * The problem is: If user DeadEyeArrow wants to merge an article, how can he reduce the size, to two lines in order to enforce his request?.
 * I know the difference between universities in USA and Egypt, Egypt has two types, public universities, and private (profitable!), public universities are free (most universities of USA are not free but unprofitable), select students according to grades, and very huge in size, Ain Shams undergraduates are 50,000 in additions to diploma, master and PhD students, try to imagine the size that can hold them all.  The public university is defined as a collection of collages, and faculties, collages holds faculties as Women's College, also faculties can create departments (like schools) in USA. departments can have their own policies. The origin of this was Al-Azhar_University  created in 975AD and the name "universities" in Arabic is pronounced near to mosque (Exactly the female name of mosque in Arabic), I think, this was because Muslims educations before universities, was religious plus all sciences in one place. Also the president is selected by the president!.--Puttyschool (talk) 03:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Now I am not sure that I understand. When you say "roll back" Ain Shams University Faculty of Pharmacy, which version should I roll back to? Your last edit to the page was on 2008-07-31, after which the page looked like this. DeadEyeArrow then made an edit which removed a lot of writing which he claimed was directly copied from the school's website. This appears to be the case; the following paragraph was copied from http://pharm.shams.edu.eg/about_faculty/mission-vision.shtml:
 * "In the year 2004/2005, ~2500 undergraduate students are enrolled in FPASU in the 5 years program, in addition to ~160 graduate students are registered for M.Sc. & Ph.D. degrees. Total faculty members, including teaching assistants, are 126 whereas faculty employees are ~102. The school comprises 9 scientific departments including Pharmacology & Toxicology, Pharmacognosy, Clinical Pharmacy, Microbiology & Immunology, Biochemistry, Drug Technology, Pharmaceutics, Pharmaceutical Chemistry, and Pharmaceutical Analytical Chemistry. These departments teach undergraduates 68 courses with a total of 192 credit hours. The language of study for both undergraduate and graduate programs is English."
 * Note that at the bottom of the page, there is a copyright notice: "Copyright © 2002-2006. All rights reserved to Faculty of Pharmacy – Ain Shams University." So even though it is a "government work" that text cannot appear on Wikipedia verbatim due to US law.
 * DeadEyeArrow wasn't removing text just to merge. It was because of copyright violation.
 * If you would like to roll back to the long version, then all you need to do is rewrite the text that was copied from http://pharm.shams.edu.eg/about_faculty/mission-vision.shtml . If this is what you want, I can help you with this too.
 * « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 12:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. I think I understand more.
 * Puttyschool, when you wrote "even if we cut and paste this site, we are not violating copyright, this is a published policy of a government, and the university is [not in competition]", we have no way of verifying the "published policy" of the Egyptian government that their writing is copyright-free. In fact, because of the copyright line quoted above, we have to assume (by US law) that the Faculty of Pharmacy does not want its writing copied word-for-word and pasted into Wikipedia.
 * This is easy enough to fix. You don't have to "re-invent" information about the Faculty of Pharmacy because there are many ways of saying the same thing. You just have to re-word.
 * Let's take a look at the History section of Harvard School of Public Health. It contains the following (I bolded some parts):
 * "The School's predecessor was the Harvard-MIT School for Health Officers, founded in 1913; Harvard calls it 'the nation's first graduate training program in public health.' In 1922, the School for Health Officers became the Harvard School of Public Health, and in 1946 it was split off from the medical school and became a separate faculty of Harvard University."
 * This is very similar to this sentence from http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/about/history-and-milestones/:
 * "Founded in 1922, the Harvard School of Public Health grew out of the Harvard-MIT School for Health Officers, the nation's first graduate training program in public health."
 * Notice how Wikipedia editors used quotes around a phrase copied word-for-word ("the nation's first graduate training program in public health"). Also, the bolded parts of Wikipedia's version mean the same (has the same information), but the words used to convey the meaning are different.
 * This is what I mean by re-wording.
 * « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 12:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks,
 * Now I understood, I was planning to re-wrote the text, I was thinking that adding a reference to the source of the text will serve until someone; familiar with its subject; change it. I’m not familiar with the subject, also I was graduated before the creation of this faculty.
 * Hear I think Copyright means don’t create a site with the same look; and don’t use our data in talking about another entity, “I think” == original research.
 * I know wiki is not a place for repeating the same words, even if from a government, also you explained how to give the same meaning using other words. I used [out] to give the meaning of "they do not and you don’t try", only as I cannot figure a base for a fair comparison.
 * Note that works by the United States government, with the exception of some Department of Commerce material, are public domain (copyright-free). See Copyright status of work by the U.S. government. « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 16:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note Till now I found only one form of license using Google search searching license forms related to the Egyptian government documents published to the internet . Read first license of the Egyptian National Library and Archives, and this I'm another License, note that the first has the word “and provide”, second do not, I don't know how they can fit.--Puttyschool (talk) 18:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * D. Trebbien brings up a fatal point, The sites hold a copyright notice, but with no term of use, or a copyright message. Please if anyone has the url that describes the terms of use or the copyright message itself, or one common to all Egypt public sites, Please post it hear.--Puttyschool (talk) 22:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I assumed that when DeadEyeArrow, added the wikify tag, this means beside this it is OK. This makes the reason of reducing it, confusing.
 * Finally: what are your comments about keeping such an article. --Puttyschool (talk) 16:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you mean in terms of notability? I do not think that it is an issue here. The Faculty of Pharmacy is a notable subject.
 * « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 16:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, sure 2500 students, makes it notable, beside Language, Un-Informative, Un-Presentable, I mean using words as "And considered one of the most powerful school of pharmacy in the middle east", "which allows it to be a unique institute" without references. Can such article present a great university or one of the jungles universities--Puttyschool (talk) 17:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Puttyschool, you bring up a good point. Those phrases should be removed. The first may be original research, and the second uses unique in a dubious fashion; it is a so-called peacock term in this context.
 * « D. Trebbien ( talk ) 21:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(EC) - I'll drop the merger proposal, since I seem to be the only one for it. I never misunderstood what the faculties were, I just felt the information on them would serve the Ain Shams article better since that is the university they belong to. Of course the pages need to conform to guidelines still. I wasn't asking to reinvent (as in make up) anything, just saying that it cannot be copied or even similarly worded as the source text. This wouldn't be neutral and it's a copyright violation, I'm assuming it's copyrighted since there is a copyright notice on the page. Like the info on the departments, was copied practically verbatim from the website. The information just has to be written in one's own words, not someone else's. —[ DeadEyeArrow – Talk – Contribs ] 03:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for dropping the merge proposal, i hope to help in improving the three pages soon.--Ashashyou (talk) 23:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Staff number
i would like to say that the number of the Staff of the Faculty of medicine alone is about 2500 Doctor Excluding the doctors in the hospital and the other adminstravtive persons. but i donot have reference, but the university staff is sure not 1000. --Ashashyou (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC) take this referance--Puttyschool (talk) 22:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC) I update it instead of you, thanks for this revision--Puttyschool (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)