Talk:Ainu people/Archive 1

VFD July 2005
Ainu people was once nominated for deletion. The VFD page contained considerable discussion about the article, and has been moved to the article's namespace fore reference. Talk:Ainu people/VFD nomination on July 16 2005 -Casito⇝Talk 04:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Tribal art
Do they have any tribal art? —This unsigned comment was added by Dreamyshade (talk • contribs).


 * Try this page, Dreamyshade:
 * http://wtv6.com/zenegata/ainu.html -- Paul Drye

Similarities with other groups
Recent genetic and morphological studies claim similiarities exist between the Ainu and American aborigines and between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai.

What does the bit about similarities between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai mean exactly? -- Daniel Thomas —This unsigned comment was added by 139.134.58.153 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 16 October 2002.


 * I don't think it means anything, and I'll remove it in a few days if nobody objects - stewacide 04:44 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)

Article needs updating after 90 years
Much of the material in this article comes from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica with the present tense intact. If anyone has any knowledge of changes in culture during the past nine decades, it would be most helpful if you updated this article, particularly the Culture section, at least changing to past tense customs that are no longer observed. Fg2 12:40, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * The estimations given for Ainu population and especially for the number of Ainu speakers are apparently out of date. Ainu is NOT spoken any more. I have myself talked to a linguist who worked on Ainu grammar in the 1990ies. His only informant was an old woman in her eighties, bound to bed in a hospital with a dozen of linguists and anthropologists swarming around her. And her command of the language was actually somewhat limited. Ethnologue.com states 15 active speakers at 1996. —This unsigned comment was added by Dmitry Gerasimov (talk • contribs).


 * Almost ten months after my inquiry about whether the cultural practices are current, I haven't gotten any reply, so I changed them to past tense. If the Ainu people presently follow these cultural traditions, please change the relevant passages to the present tense. Fg2 July 7, 2005 04:28 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Is it really necessary to say that the name is pronounced "eye-noo"? I mean, if the person reading can understand any phonetics, this would be a piece of cake to pronounce. Besides, there are no such pronunciation tools anywhere else on this site. Kakashi-sensei 18:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, "eye-noo" conveys the pronunciation better than "Ainu" (many people would rhyme "ain" with "pain") or tools such as IPA, which only a fraction of English speakers understand. Fg2 01:49, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I understand that it may be easier for people, but I see no such pronunciation guides anywhere else on Wiki. Anyway, it's not that big of a deal; I just thought it was odd :p Kakashi-sensei 14:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I've IPA-ified the pronunciation and included a link to International Phonetic Alphabet for anyone who needs help with the symbols. The IPA is actually very easy to learn; there's no reason to avoid it on the grounds of unfamiliarity. --Angr/undefined 28 June 2005 06:16 (UTC)

Archeology?
I thought I read somewhere that the Ainu perplex archeologists because, although they are native to Japan, they appear to be Caucasian in origin. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there should be some mention of that mystery in this article. Kakashi-sensei 18:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Modern genetics has proven that Ainu are definitely Asians.


 * Ah, thanks for that update. Kakashi-sensei 12:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * In 1865, an English naturalist and his staff stole Ainu people's bones at 13 graveyards in Otoshibe, Hokkaido for his anthropological study. The bones went back home two years later.  However, this is a rare case; many Japanese and Westerners, most notably KODAMA Sakuzaemon, stole buried bones and items later.  This is why many Ainu don't believe archaeologists. - TAKASUGI Shinji 09:30, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Ainu may be proto-mongloid, while Japanese "Yamato" are mongoloid pushing north and coming from Korea, part of that long journey from austral Africa.

Takima 01:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Why can't you people get over this stupid habit of classifying every ethnic group as either "Caucasoid," "Mongoloid," "Negroid," or whatever? It's really ridiculous, especially when considering an ethnic group that, like the Ainu, has an extremely long history of isolated evolution. The Ainu are a Paleolithic branch (i.e., they branched off from some mainland Eurasian population prior to the Neolithic revolution and the coalescence of modern "racial" groups) off of a (probably) Central Asian population related to many of the ancestors of modern Tajiks, Tibetans, and Turkic peoples. If you look at any photograph of a group of Tajiks, Tibetans, or Karachay Turks, for instance, you can see a strong resemblance with the modern Ainu people; genetic studies also suggest that the morphological similarity between the Ainu and these (generally southerly) Central Asian peoples is more than just a coincidence.


 * As for the Japanese proper, they clearly have a multi-layered ancestry, with the oldest major genetic contribution being provided by the Ainu or people very closely related to (most of) the ancestors of the Ainu. However, the Japanese also possess many ancestors who were closely related to the (probably) Paleolithic populations of the Korean Peninsula, as reflected in the presence of Haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes among the modern Japanese population. Smaller genetic influences from other various Eurasian groups are also apparent: the modern Japanese display a significant frequency of Haplogroup O3 Y-chromosomes, which are typical of Southern Tungusic, Sino-Tibetan, and Miao-Yao peoples, as well as being found throughout Central Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Austronesian regions of Oceania. Haplogroup O3 is generally believed to be the best genetic correlate of Neolithic influence in Eastern Eurasia. Haplogroup N, which is typical of Uralic peoples and the Sakha, is also found at a low frequency in Japan. Other Y-chromosome haplogroups, such as the typically Native American Haplogroup Q, Western European Haplogroup R1b, and Northern European Haplogroup I are also found sporadically among modern Japanese, but these probably represent recent foreign admixture. In any case, the Japanese appear to be about 50% "Ainu," 30% (Paleolithic?) "Korean," and 20% "Other," which consists mainly of generalized East Asian or perhaps proto-Chinese. Ebizur 17:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Religion
The portion of this article that provides a summary of the form of animism believed by native Ainu is a wretched mess combining animism, Western European polytheistic beliefs, and Christianity. The reference to 'hell' I have removed, it being the most obvious error. The 'Religion' portion still needs a lot of revision, though. 12.June.2005 —This unsigned comment was added by 69.218.210.231 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 12 June 2005.


 * The religion section is quite sparse. If I have the time over the next few days, I'll see if I can't add some useful information.RebelAt 17:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense at beginning of article
What is all that nonsense at the beginning of the article? It apparently is (1) trying to explain (poorly) what is a Mongoloid and (2) to suggest that somehow Japanese and Ainus are more Mongoloid than Han Chinese or Koreans. I think it should be completely removed since it vaguely has anything to do with Ainus specifically.
 * Sour pickle 6 July 2005 23:14 (UTC)


 * The argicle doesn't seem to make any mention that the Ainu have mixed austrailoid/mongoloid origin. It seems to take the Japanese government's view that they are pure mongoloid. --Pinkboi 15:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Speedy tag removal
This article is clearly does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion. If you want it deleted, wait for it to get voted on at VFD. -Casito⇝Talk 19:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD tag
Please leave the VfD tag (but not the other spammage) in future versions of this article until an administrator closes the VfD. Musachachado followed the nomination process correctly and the tag should remain. Fortunately, administrators can end nonsense VfD nominations early so it should be gone soon regardless. - Thatdog 19:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Copyright Violation
Sorry all to the VfD fiasco. This article is blatantly a copyright violation, and I think this needs to be addressed. Plus, it is an article from 1911 and thus misleading and dated.Musachachado 20:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that the part that is derived from the 1911 EB is hardly au currant, and that part should (and has already to some extent) be updated. However, there clearly is no copyright violation as the 1911 EB is no longer copyrighted.  The EB company knows well and does not dispute this fact, and does not at all object to the  dozens of copies of 1911 EB content all over the internet.--Pharos 21:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree entirely that ideas about ethnic groups in 1911 are certainly not consistant with modern ideas. However, the correct thing to do in that case is to discuss the errors on the talk page (per Fg2) or edit the article to fix the errors yourself. The solution is not to crusade against the other wikipedians and call them names. Nor is it worthwhile to add a frivolous entry to the already back-logged Copyright problems.
 * I am not an expert in U.S. or Florida copyright law (I have a distaste common law in general), so I can't say whether or not your living documents arguement has any merit. What I can say is that there are hundreds of articles in Wikipedia incorporating text from the 1911EB, and most rank-and-file editors believe that the 1911EB is PD. If you are the expert you claim to be, and Wikipedia is violating U.S. or Florida copyright law, it is a serious issue that should definitly be addressed at a higher level than simple Copyvio claims. That system is mostly for blatent plagiarism that dosn't require a law degree to identify. Wikipedia has several people dedicated to legal affairs, whom I suggest you contact If you have serious concerns that Wikipedia is systematically infringing on copyrights. I know that Danny is involved with this, and he would probably be a good person to talk to. I suggest you be polite and rational. -Casito&#8669;Talk 21:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Usage of EB 1911 is established Wikipedia policy and is not copyright violation. Review of your past contributions shows nothing but blatant vandalism and disruption, and I will assume this issue is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at the same.  - Thatdog 22:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I would appreciate it if you would not impugn my fledgling contributions to your wikipedian society. I am a new user, granted, but some of my contributions have substantially improved/expanded the articles to which they were made (see Homestead, Florida or Tupac Amaru II, for instance.  Any "vandalism," I assure you, was simply done in testing various edits in this new system -- "getting my feet wet," as it were.  I am sure that the administrators of this site would not appreciate you "biting the newcomers" such as you just did, and I believe you owe me an apology, sir!Musachachado 02:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It's become quite clear to me that Musachachado (obviously the same as CelineDionFan82) is not a clueless newbie, but a troll and a vandal.--Pharos 05:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Uh...Musachachado? What, exactly, are you referring to as your productive edits at Túpac Amaru II and Homestead, Florida?  I'm not seeing anything at either place that bears your name (see User:Musachachado (talk • contribs))...  Are you the same person as User:Muchosucko (talk • contribs) and/or the following anons?
 * User:4.171.108.20 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.171.108.23 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.171.117.90 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.171.123.44 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.174.0.193 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.174.4.63 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.174.6.182 (talk • contribs)
 * User:4.174.7.243 (talk • contribs)
 * Tomer TALK 09:49, July 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that was me on the Tupac Amaru II page who started the debate over whether make mention that Tupac Shakur's name was in honor of Amaru. You might have though that was 'trolling' at first glance, but in effect, my contributions DID lead to a productive expansion of the article, and now not only Tupac Shakur is mentioned, but Amaru's inspiration of many leftist/indigineous causes is included in the article, and rightfully so.  Just because you might not agree with someone does not make him a "vandal."  This article in question is almost 100 years old and a lazy, uninspired word-for-word copy nonetheless.  We need to fix it.  You don't want some middle school kid to come to Wikipedia to look up "Ainu" and come away with a slanted, dated, Edwardian racist view of the topic I take it?  This is a place of debate, not an antiquarian society.  Thank you. Musachachado 15:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, your nominating Túpac Amaru II for deletion after your (poorly written) additions about Tupac were rejected was what made me regard your actions as trollish. It now appears possible that you're simply unfamiliar with the criteria which make articles valid candidates for WP:VFD.  These are clarified at WP:GVFD.  With this new assumption, I will reëvaluate my attitude toward you and strike my judgment from my VfD vote for this article.  That said, I do agree with you, that the article as it presently stands, is atrocious.  Please help the community by fixing it&mdash;even one sentence at a time is helpful.  Tomer TALK  17:56, July 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * Dude! What are you talking about "poorly written"?  Why you always tryin' to keep a brotha down?  But thanks for understanding, my man... I mean, there's no need to have a century-old article cut and pasted here and passing for current scholarship with no attribution.  And yeah, its me, Musachachado.  I had to use this account for my other one seems to be blocked right now for whatever reason.Rainbowwarrior1977 03:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Tomer, I was previously of the opinion that Musachachado was just a clueless newbie, but I have become quite convinced of the opposite. Compare the contributions of User:Musachachado (talk • contribs) and User:CelineDionFan82 (talk • contribs). They both edit the same relatively obscure articles. The CelineDionFan82 account recently added stuff to this article about the "inherently superior culture" of ethnic Japanese compared to Ainu; is this not the exact opposite of Musachachado's supposed stance?--Pharos 20:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

"Sport" section
65.54.97.196, please provide sources for your claim about Ainu athletism, e.g., here, so that it could be verified. Otherwise I am afraid your addition will be deleted, unfortunately. Apologies, mikka (t) 01:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I left the sources posted on Nightowlneils talk page.65.54.97.196 02:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I recently added a section on the "Ainu People" article re: their participation in sports. You deleted it with no explanation.  The section I added can be substantiated in Kayano Shigeru, et al., "The Ainu:  A Story of Japan's Original People." (2004), p. 31 and William Fitzhugh (ed.), "Ainu: Spirit of a Northern People" (2001 reprint ed.), pp. 364-366.  Besides that, I lived in Japan for many years with the U.S. Navy and know this information to be personally true.  So please do not revert my addition without doing some research.  Thank you.65.54.97.196 02:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC) Niteowlneils 02:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Had to remove untrue POV about sports; both Japanese and Ainu men, as Northern Mongoloids (including Koreans, Mongolians, Central Asians, Arctic Asians, and some Northern Chinese), have the same physical qualities too often absent among southern Mongoloids. - Le Anh-Huy.


 * I re-added this section, and provided a citation to the article in question in-line. If you want to remove it, please supply an authority supporting that position. Thanks. Nandesuka 12:21, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Ainu people flag
i looking for a flag of ainu poeple please contact me at : crackwindobe@voila.fr —This unsigned comment was added by 83.201.23.101 (talk • contribs).

Request for Information
Please provide information on the Ainu myth/story of origin: that there is a specific mountain where the first Ainu set foot on Earth. This request was originally added to the article by User:216.231.48.252.

Clitoris tattoos?
It looks like the source of this is Node ue on 04:47, 23 May 2004. Vandalism? --Adamrush 16:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not in the article Ainu in the 1911 Britannica (available e.g. at ), from which much of the original text of the article was taken. Fg2 22:03, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * That is correct (and the reason why I was suspicious), but, after a closer look at the history, I have found that Node ue added a reference to Japan's Minorities: An Illusion of Homogenity around the time he added "clitorii" (sic) to that list. I'll check up on that book next time I'm at the library--it sounds like an interesting book.  --Adamrush 01:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it may sound like vandalism, but traditionally, some Ainu women got clitoral tatoos as a rite of passage IIRC. There're quite a few sources for this. I don't know that you can find pictures of Ainu clitoral tatoos, but you can certainly find photos of facial tatoos on Ainu women -- it looks a lot like a mustache, and you have to read a lot about the Ainu before you get used to it. I'm not sure how many living Ainu women have traditional tatoos _at all_, but I know that somebody of the age of Shigeru Kayano most likely wouldn't have them... I believe they were outlawed at one time or another. They're no longer illegal, I don't believe, but it doesn't seem to me that Ainu women are rushing to get tatoos -- Japanese society has told them that it's ugly, contrary to the more traditional Ainu concept of beauty, and even the most independentist and traditionalist of young Ainu are hugely influenced by mainstream Japanese society and would probably be repulsed by facial or clitoral tatoos, or at least not want to have them on themselves. As a side note, it was traditionally the grandmother who did the tatooing, and it was over a long period of time, bit by bit (not in one sitting!). In Japanese society, clitoral tatoos are already sort of freaky, but if you add the idea of them being done by old ladies (Otakunese: obaasan), people would be absolutely revolted. --Node 08:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * What was your source, though? Google only turns up Wikipedia. --Adamrush 16:14, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking it was the "japan's minorities" book. If not, it was definitely the "spirit of a northern people" book, as it talks a bit about the tattooing. --Node 01:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, the book's on order from my university's library. I think that bit of information should have a citation so as to not look so suspect. --Adamrush 19:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Ainu History
The history section of the Ainu is rather brief and could use some considerable addition. I'm bringing this up, in hope that this will spur others to work on the section. Myself, if time allows, I'll attempt to add at least a fair amount for the Tokugawa period, as much as my personal resource allows.RebelAt 18:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Is that date when Japanese first encountered the Ainu known? It is not mentioned in the article. Not even a century. Ashmoo 06:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It somewhat depends on your point of view. The Japanese had contact and trade relationships with a people known as the Emishi, the forefathers of the Ainu, as early as 300 AD.  However, they weren't viewed precisely as an entirely different race, but as a more barbaric Japanese group.  It was in the Heian period (794 - 1185) that a particular Emishi group was identified, the Watarishima Emishi, which had what later on was described as typical Ainu cultural features.  At the end of the 12th century, the Japanese had eliminated or pushed back all the Emishi groups into the north of Honshu and to Hokkaido.  At this time, the Japanese began calling the remaining Emishi, Ezo.  This name was also a shortened use of a word (Ezogashima)to describe "barbarian lands" in the north, such as Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kurils.  By the 15th century, the people known as the Ainu today, claimed most of this territory as their homeland and bloodily repulsed initial Japanese attempts to control southern Hokkaido.  Perhaps I'll attempt to add some to the article in a bit later.  RebelAt 16:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I can write a section on the history of Ainu and also Assimilation policies of the japanese gaovernment in regard to the Ainu - I have undertaken postgraduate research and writings in this field at the University of Essex. Might take me a few weeks to start - but I will add it little by little and cite all academic references (Kunchan 23:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC))

Tie to Native Americans?
Are there any archaeological evidence tying the Ainu to native americans? I heard from various reports that some native groups journeyed from Japan across the Bering Strait and settled in the Americas.--141.213.196.250 01:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking at old photographs of Ainus, they look a lot more similar to depigmented Australian aborigines and Papuan than any other people. Ainu today may be a genetic mix of the first Ainus and mongoloid Japanese (heavily in favour of the Mongoloid) but the first Ainus were Australoids rather than Caucasoids or Mongoloids. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs).


 * I believe this is a reference to supposed links to certain older fossils such as [Kennewick Man]. Morphological evidence suggests a link. Many really old skeletons suggest that the first people in the Americas were Australoid. --Pinkboi 15:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Some Ainu bones have future similar to Neanderthal. Here are some references to genetics papers, but do you know any Ainu exact references?

''For example, almost 9 out of 10 Ainu trace their paternal lineage to an ancestor who has also fathered approximately 9 out of 10 Moroccans and South African Bantu. That man, who first carried the YAP mutation, lived either in Asia or Africa, and yet his descendants belong to three of the major human races.

Similarly, 9 out of 10 Basques are descended from a man who has also fathered 9 out of 10 Kets from Siberia and 9 out of 10 Maya Indians from America. That man, founder of haplogroup P thus has descendants who belong to two of the major human races (or three, if Amerindians are considered as separate from Asian Mongoloids'' from

''6: Kondo Osamu Function: Graduate School of Science,Faculty of Science Department of Biological Science Division of Anthropology Job Title: Lecturer Theme: Growth of Neanderthals Palaeolithic fossil hominids in Lerant Paleoanthropology in Japan Keyword: Neanderthal Jomon Ainu Growth Paleounthropology Near East(West Asia) Last Update: 2000-11-30 '' from

''Both modern whites and NE Asians share some Neanderthal traits, but these are different traits. Due to the efforts of the Ainu (and their colonizers), Huns, Mongols and Russians, we remain rather similar, but Caucasians and N.E. Asians each possess skeletal traits unique to themselves that are at least Neanderthal in origin.''

American Neanderthal? ABC News ^ | 02-18-2000 Loring Brace, a specialist in bone measurements at the University of Michigan, says he has a simple explanation for this — both Kennewick Man and the Ainu, along with the people of Europe, descended from Neanderthals

and 1427 more related We.eter 07:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you know the above mentioned genetic mutations happened only to one man in human history? 81.155.100.190 21:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Poor Quality: prospective Japanese Contributors will be turned off on Wikipedia
Ladies and Gentlemen, this article, its tone set by work nearly 100 years old, is so far below the standard Wikipedia article I was startled. The pre-genetic-era racial classifications alone are extraordinary.

I fear that Japanese contributors turning here will be shocked, and will distrust Wikipedia afterward. Imagine a Westerner picking up a Japanese encyclopedia, deciding to check it by looking up "African Americans," say, and finding entries written in 1911, reflecting racial understanding then!

I hope scholars in Japan will completely rework this. I'll try to interest my department's Japanese scholars in revamping this. I certainly don't know enough. This advanced topic needs someone who knows not only ethnic cultures of Japan and Japanese politics, but also the latest genetic findings. Best wishes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.35.38 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 28 July 2006

music
Mention of instrument Tonkori & contemporay artist OKI? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gresh (talk • contribs) 14:51, 17 September 2006

Tenses in Culture section
The culture section of the article is a constant back-and-forth of present and past tenses. Not knowing enough about the Ainu to know how many of these cultural aspects are still practiced or observed, I thought I'd leave a note rather than trying to edit it myself. The way it reads now is slightly awkward; unless it truly represents the current state of things, it could benefit from a bit of consistency. Thanks, rom a rin [talk ] 19:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Etymology
I'm not sure what section this would go in, but a Japanese friend and I were discussing the etymology of the word "Ainu". She states that most native Japanese believe the term to be related to the Japanese "ainu", meaning "unfortunate". I'm not certain if its even relevant to this article, but it is another point-of-view. 黒雲 19:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Han expansion
"Han expansion"? That's pretty dumb. "Han" is a cultural label, it's not some kind of racial designation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.34.168 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 26 January 2007

Ainu= 'Dwarf barbarians' in Chinese?
I've read before that Chinese used to call the inhabitants of Japan 'dwarf barbarians', barbarian being the usual translation for the word they used for foreigners.

Now, in Mandarin, that sounds like 'ai nu', 'ai' being short, 'nu' being dwarf/slave.

Is this just a coincidence? I do not think the chinese spoken centuries ago would sound much like mandarin. and I do not know if the pronounciation for 'short dwarf' is similiar to 'ainu'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.126.164.65 (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I think that is mere coincidence. Mandarin Chinese is a tonal language which has a number of homonyms (probably more than any other language group) - 'ai' also means 'Love' in both Mandarin and Japanese, though in Mandarin it has a downward tone, which was lost in its importation to Japanese, which is not a tonal language.  'Ainu' most definitely does not mean 'love slave' or 'love dwarf' :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.207.208.2 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 25 May 2007


 * Mandrian Chinese is a fairly recent Beijing region based language. Ancient Chinese would've been quite different and distinct from Mandrian. So it is merely conincidence.

Intranetusa (talk) 04:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Sport
A section was just added regarding the Ainu's ethnic superiority at sports, due to their build, etc. Though cited (and quite possibly true to some extent), isn't this just as POV and biased as writing that black people are better at basketball and American football? LordAmeth 14:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This is pure POV, and unless substantiated needs to be removed. As both Ainu scholar and resdient of Hokkaido, I have never heard of such a thing. It is true that the Ainu have different build structures to the Wajin (or majority Japanense) but there is no substaniated excellence at sports. Indeed one could ask, which sports? Moreover, there are very few pure Ainu left in Japan due to Japaense assimilation policies - intermarriage with the Wajin population being quite common. (Kunchan 23:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC))

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Corrected last paragraph of History
Original:Today, many Ainu dislike the term Ainu because of a common derogatory pronunciation of the word in Japanese (A! Inu!, which means "Ah! A dog!" in Japanese) and prefer to identify themselves as Utari (comrade in the Ainu language). In official documents both names are used. After edit:Today, many Ainu dislike the term Ainu because once it had been used with derogatory nuance and prefer to identify themselves as Utari (comrade in the Ainu language). In official documents both names are used.

"A! Inu!" and "Ainu" sound very different in Japanese. There is no Japanese resource mentionig association between "A! Inu" and "Ainu".Seekerx (talk) 10:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jomon Stuff
Why is there a section about a connection between the Jomon and the Americas in an Ainu article and not in the Jomon article? And the paragraph before there seems irrelevant.--Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, no one has explained why a connection to the Americas by the Jomon is in an article about the Ainu, I'm deleting it. Doug Weller (talk) 06:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mapping Human History citation, not clear
Upon searching for 'Mapping Human History' by Steve Olson it appears there is more than one book with this title and different sub-titles by this author. It is not clear in the article which one is being referred to. Would be good to include the full title. Alex53 (talk) 09:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary racist language
This article is peppered with racist phraseology. I have already removed references to "pure" and "pure-blooded", but there are more that need to go. Reading some of the other posts I can well believe this article has been derived from the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1911! Don't forget race is just a myth from a scientific point of view! You can talk about cultural homogenicity and genetic homogenicity, but the idea of talking about human races as if they were different species is both old fashioned and incorrect.--Hontogaichiban (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hairy Ainu
Shouldn't there be a reference in the article somewhere to the Ainu being known as "the Hairy Ainu" as a proper name in Western anthropological textbooks etc? I'm not sure if the phrase is now frowned on on this PC world, but certainly they were called that in the middle of last century and before (and possibly later - I only have textbooks dating from this period), and it shouldn't be excised through cultural revisionism. 86.148.49.46 (talk) 11:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested Picture
I am adding a citation to this page asking for a more recent picture of a member of the group, preferably with some or all of the cultural markings cited in the article. I think that this is particularly important to the discussion of their origins. The picture included in the article already is good for historical purposes, but I think that something more recent, showing a single person or a smaller group of people in detail, would be more useful. 72.151.39.230 (talk) 14:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

japanese influence on language
"The unwieldy nature of the Japanese kana with its inability to accurately represent terminal consonants has contributed to the degradation of the original Ainu, with such words as "Kor" (meaning to hold), being pronounced now with a terminal vowel sound, "Koro", in many Japanese Ainu dialects, as distinct from the Kurile or Sakhalin Ainu."

It is highly unlikely that the Japanese writing system would have an effect on the spoken Ainu language. The tendency for Ainu speakers to insert vowels in order to avoid final consonants is more likely due to lack of fluency in Ainu. A plausible scenario is that these Ainu are native Japanese speakers, and only learn Ainu as a second language in order to recite epics and so forth, or to communicate with other Ainu that are native Ainu speakers. In this situation, these disfluent Ainu speakers would most likely apply their native Japanese phonological rules, such as vowel insertion.

I think this sentence needs to be corrected, or if it really is true that the writing system affected the pronunciation, a proper citation needs to be given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.91.108.194 (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Customs and art
Are any of these customs still practiced today? --rmhermen

Please remove the stupid President Jackson joke.
I can't figure out what this guy did. Not an expert. Please remove, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.228.190 (talk) 04:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Ainu Genetics
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23135232

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v49/n4/abs/jhg200432a.html

http://jspsusa.org/FORUM2012/presentation/3-2_Shinoda.pdf

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201211010059

https://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201211010059

http://www.asianscientist.com/in-the-lab/ryukyuan-ainu-people-genetically-similar-2012/

http://japandailypress.com/research-shows-ainu-and-okinawans-more-genetically-related-0217724/

http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=13814

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/japanorigin.htm

http://www.soken.ac.jp/news_all/2719.html


 * Thanks. We should stick with the academic sources. We can't use the pdf at the jspsusa forum, nor Watkins page, and news sources are never as good as the original papers they report but they often lead to the sources we need. Dougweller (talk) 09:45, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

sources on Ainu history
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp02/NQ48593.pdf

Ainu wars against Japan

Koshamain revolt

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x8FO9evlIyoC&pg=PA27&dq=koshamain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=roS5UayoHJKO7AbnqIDgBg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=koshamain&f=false

Shakushain's Revolt

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-octogenarian-who-took-on-the-shoguns-1307033/

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110004689021

http://www.historical-geography.net/volume_36_2008/jacobson.pdf

http://academic.evergreen.edu/curricular/decolonization/Education%20About%20Asia%20Dubreuil.pdf

http://www.anthropology.wisc.edu/Ohnuki-Tierney/files/1993-ainu-ency.pdf

Menashi-Kunashir Rebellion

Other

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/abz.pdf

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/the_pits.pdf

Modern history

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF56.htm

http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf?sequence=1

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ainu-people-lay-ancient-claim-to-kurile-islands-the-hunters-and-fishers-who-lost-their-land-to-the-russians-and-japanese-are-gaining-the-confidence-to-demand-their-rights-reports-terry-mccarthy-1552879.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10892182

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/012/i0370e/i0370e08.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 06:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Ainu Australoid?
Hello, this section is a response to Sturmgewehr88's request. I didn't find an authoritative source for the claim that the Ainu are genetically Australoid. According to one study, the Ainu, despite miscegenation, don't cluster as closely with ancestral Northeast Asians as the latter do with one another. By the way, notice that the title of the category says "type," not race, and the Ainu do exhibit a rather Australoid morphology. EIN  ( talk ) 14:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The sources you provided only proved that the Ainu are distinct from other peoples, which is already a given fact, and nothing more. I agree that the Ainu are awkwardly placed, but you can't just infer that they're "Austroloid-type".  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 18:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'll leave this to someone who may find indications for it in the future. But just to be clear, even though this would probably qualify as improper synthesis, it can be inferred by omission that the Ainu are Australoid from the premise that each of the presently existing humans can be categorized under at least one of the four macro-races. It's the most common hypothesis today that the Ainu originated from a merger of the Okhotsk and Satsumon people, who inhabited the Japanese Archipelago before the Yamato and could have been part Australoid for all we know. It makes sense that the Ainu are Australoid if, considering the genetic and archaeological clues, it's true that before the Mongoloids and Caucasoids came, the Australoids occupied a much wider area than just Australia and Melanesia - from Africa via the Arabian Peninsula, an area spanning as far westward as the Indian subcontinent, as far northward as the The Japanese Archipelago or farther, and maybe even as far eastward as the Americas (see Pericúes and Fuegians). Also see Haplogroup C-M130.  EIN   ( talk ) 11:52, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, well if you find a few sources that support this, then you can re-add the category (or find a better one) and add the information to the article.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 13:57, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Ainu in Tokyo
In March 2014, a new volume was published looking at the Ainu community in Tokyo, which may be worth drawing from in terms of fleshing out the section here dealing with this sub-set of the Ainu diaspora beyond Hokkaido. However, I wasn't sure how best to draw from this source in order to further inform the article. Has anyone else here taken a look at this volume yet, to see what kind of information might be worth referencing? --Nerroth (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable magazine quotation misleadingly attributed to a reprint in a source that doesn't ADMIT to being bad at fact-checking...
I removed

"' Tokyo's thriving Ainu community keeps traditional culture alive,' Japan Today, March 1, 2009."

as a source for the claim

"In a 2009 news story, Japan Today reported, 'Many Ainu were forced t o work, essentially as slaves, for Wajin (ethnic Japanese), resulting i n the breakup of families and the introduct ion of smallpox, measles, cholera and tuberculosis into their community. In 1869, the new Meiji government renamed Ez o as Hokkaido and unilaterally incorporate d it into Japan. It banned the Ainu languag e, took Ainu land away, and prohibited sal mon fishing and deer hunting.'"

Let alone the fact that, per the source cited, it is not a 2009 news story reported by Ja pan Today but rather "originally appeared in Metropolis magazine", but ... how can J apan Today be considered a reliable news source (much less a source for difficult sch olarly/historical issues) when they have bo rrowed over 400 stories wholesale from Metropolis, a popular free magazine whose publisher, according to its own websit e, makes no representations about the accuracy of the information, data, advertise ments, graphics, or other content contained in any Japan Partnership website, e-mail newsletter, or print publication, including but not limited to the Japan Partnership prin t and online magazine, blogs, and other e mail newsletters, and any other media cha nnel owned or produced by Japan Partners hip? The story in question is attributed to Andy Sharp apparently a decent reporter for Bloomberg, but unless he's a renowned scholar of Ainu studies (and per WP:BURDEN we must assume he isn't) then material he writes for Metropolis must be taken as his opinion and his opinion only. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 09:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Trouble archiving links on the article
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Removal of data
There was a huge removal of missing data by Krakkos so I reverted it back to it's normal state.

If there is any mistakes on the page than it should be removed immediately but I see not one problem since they are all sourced properly.


 * It's the responsibility of an editor restoring sock puppet edits to ensure they are satisfactory. That includes checking the sources, which I doubt this editor did. One obvious sock has already been blocked for restoring material by another WorldCreatorFighter sock puppet.  Doug Weller  talk 21:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

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Pronunciation
I don't know which of these is the correct pronunciation of "Ainu", but whichever it is should be placed toward the beginning of the page to help clarify the matter.


 * IPA is generally not needed for Japanese as the pronunciation is consistent. Additionally, only about 1% of the world's English population even understands how to pronounce something in IPA. It's practically useless for anyone outside of linguists. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 19:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What does it mean to say that the pronunciation is consistent? And how does this help an English speaker who doesn't know how the word is pronounced in Japanese? Lots of pages on Wikipedia give IPA transcriptions, including the page for Japan itself. Anyone who can hover their mouse over an IPA transicription on Wikipedia can understand how to read it, as the hover text explains the pronunciation for each phoneme. I also gave the "pronunciation respelling key", not just the IPA. The fact that I still have no clue which way the word is pronounced is evidence that you're wrong and that some sort of clarification is needed. And clarification of pronunciation on Wikipedia comes in the form of the sorts of transcriptions I offered above. This is standard procedure, all across this site.
 * Just noticed that the page for the Ainu language has an IPA transcription. Now I know which way it's pronounced (/ˈaɪnuː/). More evidence that this should be added to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kester Nethlo (talk • contribs) 21:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

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Another potential representation in popular culture
It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, and I'm not sure how accurate this is, but apparently the main character of the movie Princess Mononoke, Ashitaka, and the tribe he's from are meant to be Ainu. The actual way they're portrayed and their appearance skews more towards Japanese. They make mention in the movie, albeit in passing, that they consider themselves distinct from the other Japanese people who live in the area. I don't feel comfortable adding this to the article since I'm not 100% sure if it truly is a representation of the Ainu people or not, but I just thought I'd bring it up so someone more knowledgeable could look into it. 69.178.89.139 (talk) 07:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * They're actually Emishi, and Miyazaki specifically said they were not Ainu. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 18:50, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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