Talk:Ainu people/Archive 2

Beards? just the men?
Not _quite_ that long ago, when I was a kid, I recall reading that Ainu woman had beards. Any truth to that? (I've known some American woman with beards, FWIW) ;Bear 00:15, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
 * No, not exactly; I think you are referencing the traditional practice of tatooing a 'mustache' on an Ainu woman's upper lip.--Pharos 19:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know if the women wore beards, but the Ainu have long held the record as the ethnic group with the greatest amount of body hair overall. Agateller 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really, their 'hairyness' is often exxagerated to contrast them with other Japanese / North East Asians.
 * No, really, the Ainu are the most hirsute ethnic group in the world. The Japanese are very hairy, too, compared to most other ethnic groups. I think you don't know Japanese people (especially men) well enough. Koreans and other (continental) East Asians, however, are extremely smooth-skinned. Ebizur 17:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Very true. Many East Asians are hairy or at least relatively so. Many white people like to make these fake divisions whenever their preconceptions prove false. Le Anh-Huy 03:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Ainu women do not grow beards (!) (Kunchan 23:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC))


 * You are all thinking of the tattoos around the mouth that used to be common. Here is one photo, and here is another, clearer one. Heian-794 (talk) 10:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The second picture of Heian-794 is clearer for sure, put probably represents a Japanese woman playing an Ainu role for a show, as it was common at the beginning of the 20th century, according to the book "Un Voyage chez les Aïnous - Hokkaïdo 1938" by Arlette Leroi-Gourhan and André Leroi-Gourhan (in French - see the French page). You see that it's a complex matter and that any reference or document should be taken with care ! SN74LS00 (talk) 17:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

"Mongoloid, not Caucasian"
This whole section is of dubious accuracy, making sweeping statements about concepts that were debunked after, well, 1911.

Anyone want to rewrite it? —This unsigned comment was added by Nandesuka (talk • contribs).


 * I agree. This is exactly what we're talking about.  We need to rewrite this article totally.  The best way to do it is delete it and start over, if you people won't snap to it.Musachachado 15:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * "You people" includes you, Musasamumblewhatever. Thanks in advance for your constructive editing. Nandesuka 16:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Hold your thanks till after you see section above.--Pharos 21:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The Ainu people are neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid: they comprise their own morphological and genetical group, which is often eponymously titled "Ainoid." The Ainu genepool has been mostly isolated from other human populations since the Paleolithic era; thus, they have not had the chance to be the source or recipient of significant gene flow since a time prior to the formation of the macro-populations partially inbred according to geographical proximity (i.e., "races") that are generally recognized in the world today, i.e. Negroid (better called "Africoid," because it originally formed due to inbreeding within the African landmass), Caucasoid (better called "Western Eurasoid"), Australoid (better called "Paleolithic Oceanoid," which is an ancient branch off of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid-Australoid), Mongoloid ("Eastern Eurasoid," a branch off of proto-Eurasoid, probably with some admixture with older branches from the proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid stem, such as the Ainu), and Americanoid (a distinctive branch off of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid). The Ainoid race is just as distinctive as any of these other "races," although it displays certain affinities (mostly cranial) to the Caucasoid race and other affinities (mostly post-cranial) to the Americanoid and Mongoloid races. To put it in laymen's terms, the Ainu are simply "the Ainu" and they don't belong to any other people's "racial group," but their heads and faces tend to be relatively similar to the Caucasoids (Western Eurasians) and their body shapes tend to be relatively similar to the Americanoids (Native Americans) and Mongoloids (Eastern Eurasians). They appear to descend mostly from a very ancient Paleolithic branch of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid peoples. The only ethnic groups with which the Ainu share any significant amount of recent ancestry are the Japanese (including the Ryūkyūans) and the Nivkhs. As an aside, it can be noted that the inhabitants of the Japanese Archipelago, including the Ainu, Japanese, and Ryūkyūans, display certain odd genetic archaicisms that appear to descend directly from Paleolithic African "proto-humans." Thus, for example, the Japanese display some proteins and other genetic, immunological, and morphological characteristics that are absent from all extra-African populations except the populations of the Japanese Archipelago. They are definitely not just another version of East Asian Mongoloids, although the Japanese and the Ryukyuans, at least, do appear to share some recent ancestry with certain East Asian ethnic groups. Ebizur 19:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Ainu are Australoid, and in no way resemble Caucasoids. Their skin tone is NOT the tone of Caucasians, their body type does NOT resemble Caucasoids, and judging from wikipedia's own pictures on the Ainu, their facial features are very different from that of Caucasoids. Intranetusa (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * According to ETHNIC ORIGINS OF THE PEOPLES OF NORTHEASTERN ASIA, M.C. Levin et al, University of Toronto Press 1963, the Ainu have a decidedly darker skin tone than the surrounding people (the Nivkhs coming closest, the Japanese being much lighter). I don't know where the notion of light colored Ainu comes from, but it's definitely wrong. --Joostik (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The Ainus are definitely not Caucasoid. The Ainu adult male has a full head of hair, whereas Caucasoid males tend to lose significant amount of hair past the age of 25, and many are bald by the age of 50. 81.157.99.169 (talk) 14:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Ainu are Caucasoids, there is little scientific dispute over this. In fact their language more resembles Basque than any Asian language. http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/ainu.htm http://www.greatarchaeology.com/kennewick_man.htm What you're referring to comes from years of intermixing with Mongoloids. The Ainu are an astonishing example of preservation despite thousands of years of outside pressure. http://japanfocus.org/data/ainufamily%201906.H.C.%20White.jpg The fact is, genetically, Ainu are Caucasoids. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supersonicshaman (talk • contribs) 15:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Nowhere in those links did it say that the Ainu are Caucasoids. Modern genetics has not found any link to Caucasian origins for the Ainu. They are Proto-Mongoloids, that is what all scientific research supports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8095:6300:E54A:B0CC:39ED:56D9 (talk) 06:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Origin?

 * "Modern genetics has proven they are East Asians"

Well, they certainly do not look East Asian on this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AinuGroup.JPG Some of these faces could be seen in any city in Europe. This really imply connection between Ainu and some peoples from the proposed Eurasiatic languages super-family. PANONIAN  (talk)  02:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can tell they are east asian in that pic; perhaps you expect asians to always have over-exaggerated asian features? i've met some ainu people, and they look no diff. from japanese or siberian people to me. Le Anh-Huy 21:34, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You've never been to Asia I take it? On a side-note, I've traveled throughout the European Continent, from the Southern regions of Greece and Carpathian mountains thru the Ukraine, Russia, Poland Finland all the way thru France, Spain, the British Isles and Scandinavia and I've NEVER seen people who resembled the pic above.
 * If anything, the Ainu in this pic closely resemble the peoples found in the former Burma and East India.--208.54.15.161 19:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverted edits: about other possibly origins of the Ainu from June 2009  There has been speculation and controversy on the Ainu could originated in late ice age times. The Ainu or "Jomon" are once thought to be related to the populations of South Asia and the East Indies, via the seafaring peoples on simple built rafts from the shores of southern Arabia (the modern-day countries of Oman and Yemen) and the Horn of Africa where the Red Sea meets the Indian Ocean. The eymotology of "Ainu" seems to appear related to the similar namesake of the mysterious "Aynu" of Ancient Egypt during the time of the Pharoahs (over 3,000 years ago) and the racial origins of Aynu remain completely unknown, but are theorized to be dark-skinned yet are of an Asian Armenoid appearance. Also a Christian fundamentalist group seek to unite the entire human race, thought the Ainu are one of the lost ten tribes of Israel and they suggested the Jomon are a subset of the Yemeni or Omani tribes, some of them have Jewish ancestry (see Yemeni Jews) and the earliest societies of Japan. On Youtube from a Japanese TV documentary series on the paranormal, one particular temple was found in the island of Shikoku (in Japanese) are thought to display thelogical symbols and cultural rites, and the statues shown faces had ethnological Middle Eastern appearance, all are characteristic of Israel in Biblical times. + 71.102.12.55 (talk) 12:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed Caucasoid References
The portion that said Ainus resemble Caucasoids is quite ridiculous. The skin tone and body type do not resemble Caucasoids. And from wikipedia's own Ainu pictures, their facial features look vastly different from that of Caucasoids. Considering the fact that they resemble the proto-Australoids of South East Asia and Australia, and that their language is similar to Austronesian languages of Taiwan, I'm removing references between the Ainu and Caucasoids. Intranetusa (talk) 04:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Go to PBS "Nova" on the mummies of Gobi. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html Takima (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

PBS "Nova"
It may have some interest.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/ainu.html

What about Caucasian origin, as the mommies of the Gobi in China North-West? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takima (talk • contribs) 02:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The word "Ainu" is close to the Canadian "Inu" and Quebecer "Inuit" with the same meaning of "human". Many questions without answers.

Takima (talk) 01:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * No chance of 'Caucasian' origin, the genetic evidence is clear about that. To compare names you need, at the very least, to compare them in the original languages, not English. dougweller (talk) 12:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There has been many attempts to connect the Ainu with North American Indians and Polynesians in ethnological anthropology, while the Ainu are indigenous to the Japanese Islands and the area stretching from Okinawa adjacent to Taiwan to Sakhalin (the southern half of the island was Japanese ruled from 1870 to the end of WWII when the Soviets now Russia annexed them) which is close to Siberia, and to consider the Innu-Ainu enonym to be strikingly similar, one has to perform genetic research to find a relation between the two peoples before the declaration of the Ainu and Innu have PaleoSiberian/Pre-Oriental Asian origin is valid. 71.102.3.122 (talk) 18:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Jomon period category
Whatever their origin legends, their culture does not coincide at all with the Jomon period, so the category is wrong. The Jomon period ended about 1200 years before this culture arose. Dougweller (talk) 05:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The article specifically mentions this connection, however. Just because there are no records showing it doesn't mean their origin legends are not true. I don't see an issue with keeping the cat. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's like saying because the Hugenot's ancestors lived in the Bronze Age you can categorize them as Bronze Age people. The Ainu culture didn't exist until long after the Jomon period. Clearly they had ancestors, whoever they were and wherever they were, at the same time as the Jomon period, and some of them were probably Jomon. But that's irrelevant, they are not a Jomon period culture. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits to Ainu people
This edit is a reversion of another editor's work - it's a pretty major reversion which you didn't explain and marked as minor, which it clearly isn't. My instinctive reaction was just to revert your reversion with an edit summary 'unexplained reversion', but I thought I'd ask you first why you removed the other editor's work as I may have misssed something obvious. I've given the other editor a welcome message (although he's not new, he never got one) and a message telling him about edit summaries. Dougweller (talk) 06:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I did not at all mean to mark it as minor, I haven't used that button since I was a relatively new user. I changed browsers today from IE to Firefox, may have inadvertently clicked it, my mistake. I should have given the user an explanation, but this has been crashing on me, so I've been preoccupied. Sorry. Okay if I move all this to the talkpage of the article? I undid all the edits as several were unsourced, misplaced and broke wikilinks. There's probably some validity to some of it, the user seems to know the topic, but the things that were removed and the things that were added appear on the surface to be POV. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 06:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good move to Firefox, there's so much more you can do with Wikipedia if you use Firefox, Opera or Chrome. I concur with your assessment of the edits, moving it would probably be a good idea as it allows others to work on the material. Could well be pov but probably good faith. Thanks for the quick response. Dougweller (talk) 06:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Flag
Do the Ainu people have a common flag? I have a poster map of the world that shows a flag labelled "Ainu". There is an image of it here: [Map] (it's near the end of the flags section at the bottom). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.250.50 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 16 September 2009

'Totem' poles
I have read somewhere that the Ainu erected poles not unlike Native American totem poles. Any know if this is correct? What was the significance of these poles? Is this worth adding to the culture section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.250.50 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 16 September 2009

Satsumon and Y-haplogroup
I think many people do not know what the Satsumon culture is. I think it is better to explain what it exactly is. The article "The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian " is not specifying enough the fact that Y-haplogroup is found all through the Japanese territory. This type of chromosome is found from the local people of all the current Japanese territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bullet train (talk • contribs) 01:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Ainu origin of Samurai?
Exalted Warriors, Humble Roots. This looks interesting. Komitsuki (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Ainu-like pre-historic people in the Korean Peninsula.
Explanation in Korean. This is from a very old South Korean documentary from KBS, a South Korean national TV station. It explains how the Korean Peninsula was once populated by a dolmen-building pre-historic people who looked like the old Ainus. A scholar reconstructed a skull founded in Jaecheon Hwangseok-ri (제천 황석리) who doesn't look today's Koreans (or Yayoi people of Japan). Anyway, I think this is worth sharing. Komitsuki (talk) 14:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Sanka people
Japan: Sanka, Legendary Gypsies Living in the Wild. I wonder whether Sanka people relates to modern Ainu people. Komitsuki (talk) 17:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone translate this video about Ainu?
The video is in Russian. I want to know what it is about.

1. Камчадальские айны добиваются признания - Kamchatka Ainu seek official recognition

Thanks. Axxn (talk) 03:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Genetic information on mtDNA origin of Ainu
The wiki page includes the Y-DNA origin of Ainu but not the mtDNA study which is bias. The genetic information of Ainu is incomplete, however the study I edited provides good information on the origin mtDNA of Ainu. If you only include Y-DNA study but not the mtDNA study you might aswell remove the claim Ainu are haplogroup D2 and blame it on the genetic drift. Many people are asking what is the origin mtDNA of the Ainu, and the study I provided answers that question even though in the study it clearly says it's an hypothesis it's still far better than nothing. The genetic study I provided " Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Jomon skeletons from the Funadomari" revealed excellent information on ancient Jomon skeleton before the migrations of the Yayoi skeleton. This means there is an very high chance that the N9b and M7a were pre-jomon mtDNA contribution to modern Japanese mtDNA pool. Nobody (including me) it's saying that the study it's absolutely correct, but it fills in more information about the original Ainu mtDNA. WarriorsPride6565 (talk (talk • contribs) 8:40, 9 march (UTC)

"Wajin" "Jōmon-jin"
Wajin refers to Japanese people, in which the Ainu could be a part of. The term Wa 和；倭　was a term used by the Chinese to describe the islands of Japan and its people. There is therefore no significant ethnic or cultural meaning behind the term 倭人；和人. To refer to ethnically Japanese people, ie not Ainu or Ryukyuans the appropriate word would be "Yamato." Even the Wajin link directs to the page Yamato people. Secondly since this page is written in English, "jin" should be omitted. There is no need to say Wa-jin person/people or Jōmon-jin person/people. Since that would mean Jōmon people people. In the same way in other articles people do not say　Nihon-jin people, or Zhong-ren people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.33.62 (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, your initial supposition is incorrect. "The Japanese people" does not equal "the Yamato people", just as "the Chinese" doesn't mean "the Han". I spoke with some Ainu just recently (I'm an unaffected outsider (European), speak fluent Japanese, and the conversations were in Japanese - which is what Ainu speak as well, the number of native speakers of Ainu left can unfortunately probably be measured in single or double digits), and 'Wajin' is the term they use when distinguishing themselves from the major Japanese group, i.e. the Yamato people, so I think it's an appropriate denomination for this particular article, especially with the link to the Yamato people article you mention and an explanation of the word "Wajin" in the lede of that article and also given that the Yamato people article specifically explains the difference between "Japanese" and "Yamato". The point about this being the English Wikipedia is really moot when applied to technical terms - there will always be loanwords, including redundant ones (hey, if the word "ainu" in the Ainu language really means "people" as I read somewhere, them by your logic we shouldn't even use the word Ainu, we should just call them "The people"), and if I can allow myself to project this ad absurdum, an English Wikipedia that would avoid any and all loanwords despite the justifiability of their use simply because "they are not of the English language" would really just be the Anglish Wikipedia. 42.124.3.253 (talk) 16:01, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Dubious?
Second paragraph in the "origins" section is dubious, POV and unsourced. There is some similar information in the following paragraphs that seems more appropriate. Any objections to removing paragraph 2 ? Niado (talk) 17:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Eye-new or Eh-new? Someone in the know should put a pron. guide in at the top. 202.179.19.13 (talk) 04:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Blood Types
I don't know if this source is reliable as a source, but it seems to be: http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html.

Their data for blood types include Blood type: 0          A 	B 	AB Ainu:       17 	32 	32 	18 Japanese:   30 	38 	22 	10 .202.179.19.13 (talk) 04:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The website you cite seems to be a self-published aggregation of data. Primary sources would be better.  However, I don't understand how the data is relevant to the article. 75.36.146.26 (talk) 00:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The ABO blood type figures suggest that the Ainu are distinguished from the mainstream Japanese mainly by the Ainu's higher frequency of the ABO-B allele and lower frequency of ABO-O alleles. This may be mildly interesting because type B is most frequent among Asians (Koreans, Chinese, Mongols, Indians), whereas type O is most frequent among indigenous Americans and Southern Europeans. In other words, judging only from the ABO blood type system, the Ainu are actually more "standard Asian" and the Japanese are more "distinctive" for their geographical region. Ebizur (talk) 08:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

DNA links found between ancient Peruvians and Japanese
A new study has revealed genetic links between people who inhabited northern Peru more than 1,000 years ago and the Japanese.

Japanese physical anthropologist Ken-ichi Shinoda performed DNA tests on the remains of human bodies found in the East Tomb and West Tomb in the Bosque de Pomas Historical Sanctuary in Peru, which are part of the Sican Culture Archaeological Project, funded by Japan's government.

The director of the Sican National Museum, Carlos Elera, told the El Comercio newspaper that Shinoda found that people who lived more than 1,000 years ago in what today is the Lambayeque region, about 800 kilometers north of Lima, had genetic links to the contemporaneous populations of Ecuador, Colombia, Siberia, Taiwan and to the Ainu people of northern Japan.

The studies will be continued on descendents of the Mochica culture, from the same region, who are currently working on the Sican Project and with people who live in the vicinity of the Bosque de Pomac Historical Sanctuary.

According to Peruvian archaeologist Luis Chero, "Currently, the DNA results have great value because they can be understood to show that there were people who arrived in these zones from Asia and who then converted these zones into the great culture of the New World."

The results of the studies will be presented at an exhibit on the Sican culture that will be set up for a year at the Tokyo Museum of Science and Nature.

Also to be displayed at that exhibit will be gold, silver and copper jewelry found in the tombs of the ancient Sican rulers and priests. Komitsuki (talk) 10:04, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Can anyone find a published paper? This is from 2009, so you'd expect if there were anything to be published it would be published by now. Dougweller (talk) 21:41, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Sources that explain the difference between Ainu Mongoloid and East Asian Mongoloid
It should be stated why Ainu Mongoloid look so different to East Asian Mongoloid when they both cluster genetically together and this absolutely explains it:

" Anthropologist Elsie Clews Parsons physical features of the Proto-Mongoloid were characterized as, "a straight-haired type, medium in complexion, jaw protrusion, nose-breadth, and inclining probably to round-headedness".[41] Margaret Sleeboom-Faulkner of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Sussex said Kanzō Umehara considered the Ainu and Ryukyuans to have "preserved their proto-Mongoloid traits".[42] According to Ashley Montagu, "The Mongoloid skull has proceeded further than in any other people."[43] "The Mongoloid skull, whether Chinese or Japanese, has been rather more neotenized than the Caucasoid or European."[43] "The female skull, it will be noted, is more pedomorphic in all human populations than the male skull."[43] "

--- 92.236.36.173 (talk) 05:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The revised edit you made to the article was fine . Remember all sources for this need to mention the Ainu. Sleeboom-Faulkner clearly does, do the others? Dougweller (talk) 10:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The Parsons is the intro to an old collection of fictionalized essays about Native Americans, and uses the term "proto-Mongoloid" in reference to them, not to Ainu; her description also conflicts with some of the traits attributed to Ainu later in this article. Montagu says nothing about Ainu or proto-Mongoloids, and what he says about Mongoloid skulls doesn't seem very relevant. Also, his statements are taken from a book he wrote about healthy living/aging, not from something about physical anthropology, ethnography, etc. Ergative rlt (talk) 16:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, striking my comment. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2014 (UTC)