Talk:Air Algérie Flight 5017/Archive 1

Requested protection
I've requested the article to be silverlocked. There's a lot of IP editors adding both unsourced content and original research. Hopefully, the matter will settle once the fate of the aircraft is confirmed.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 12:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Some registered users don't seem to be doing much better as far as sourcing/OR, and there are plenty of IP editors making useful edits. This seems kind of unnecessary at this point. 9kat (talk) 13:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Mmm, I think you're right. I'll be withdrawing the request.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 13:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Fatalities
As of the moment of writing, there are no reports that the plane was found and what the number of fatalities is. As a result I am removing the related un-cited parts of the article --195.97.12.226 (talk) 11:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello, on her twitter account, https://twitter.com/Air_Algerie said there were 50 French fatalities https://twitter.com/Air_Algerie/status/492277347027283968 109.18.102.48 (talk) 13:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think that said there were 50 French PASSENGERS. A little premature, aren't you? WWGB (talk) 13:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

What kind of plane is it?
Is it an A320? A DC9? An MD-83? 

I'm removing the image until this is clear. We have no idea if that is the correct aircraft. (I suspect the reports of it being a Swiftair MD-83 are correct, but we'll see.) 9kat (talk) 11:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Isn't it a Boeing 737-600? StandNThrow (talk) 12:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I thought you were joking, but it was apparently scheduled to be operated with a 737-600. There's good confirmation it was an MD-83 now, though. (But still not of the tail number; it'd be nice if people stopped assuming the picture is of the exact plane until we have proper refs to confirm that.) 9kat (talk) 12:27, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, schedule, but ultimately flew on another model. Okay. Thanks a lot. StandNThrow (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Ouagadougou Airport officials release map, etc
I'm not sure we can do anything with this yet, but it does conflict with the info about the crash being in Niger. 9kat (talk) 14:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant?
Is this really removal of irrelevant information? Fair enough that it was tagged as unreferenced, so I added the references. But these two losses help to show that it's been a particulary bad week for aviation. Mjroots (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Another reference found http://www.dawn.com/news/1121316/missing-air-algerie-plane-has-crashed-algerian-aviation-official --39.55.186.167 (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It has more to do with the ongoing Libya crisis than aviation. In my opinion. Orcair (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I was the one that tagged the paragraph for the inclusion of sources. I'm still firm on that. Sources should be provided regardless of linking to articles with a large number of references.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 20:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

"In the News"
Shouldn't this go into the section "In the news..." on the Main page? Cheers! Brandon (MrWooHoo) • Talk to Brandon!  21:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Just noticed the page is already a candidate here. Brandon (MrWooHoo) • Talk to Brandon!  21:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Removed outofcontrolvideos.com refs/copyvios
The editor inserting this information appears to have a WP:COI with the listed site (and appears to run it.) This isn't an WP:RS, and there are plenty of international media and local African sources covering the event. It was inserted as a self-WP:COPYVIO first, but seemed like it needed to go anyways. This isn't the place to link your blog. 9kat (talk) 11:56, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed this source again . It's poorly inserted material. Not to mention, it's a complete copyright violation of its original source . Someone with the same username discusses driving traffic to outofcontrolvideos.com on a forum in September 2013: . Spam/SEO/whatever. 9kat (talk) 22:41, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

location: Tilemsi - BFMTV + Guardian confuse two Tilemsi's, BFMTV can't judge 70km on a map
I don't have time to edit this properly - anyone feel free to edit and add it properly to the article:


 * BFMTV claims French military contacts have found wreckage at "Tilemsi", and that Air Algerie tweeted that the crash was at "Tilemsi": http://www.bfmtv.com/international/air-algerie-a-perdu-contact-un-vol-parti-ouagadougou-818115.html, archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6RJG9qWu1, archivedate=2014-07-24
 * The Guardian also claims it: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/air-algerie-flight-5017-wreckage-found-mali, archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/6RJGBJGJl, archivedate=2014-07-24

Both of them show maps for Tilemsi, Tombouctou instead of Tilemsi, Gao. BFMTV even says it's 70km from Gao, but on the map it's obviously hundreds of km away - the authors forgot that Europe is tiny and Africa is big...

Anyway, the Wikipedia article can be more reasonable - common sense is not OR. Obviously it's Tilemsi, Gao that can reasonably be about 70km from Gao.

Boud (talk) 16:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I didn't see this until after I added the information. I reached the same conclusion, that it's Tilemsi, Gao. I left it unlinked until the refs confirm it with a better location. (Google Maps doesn't have Tilemsi, Gao, but it has Tilemsi, Tombouctou...and just "Tilemsi, Mali" goes to the latter. But let's wait until refs reflect that.) 9kat (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, from the BBC : "Radio France International is suggesting a different location for the crash site in Mali - further north and to the east. Local people reported hearing "powerful explosions" early this morning north of Aguelhoc, in the Kidal region, and reported them to military forces in the area". I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. 9kat (talk) 16:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Per CNN, the airline has tweeted that it is Tilemsi, Gao, per our suspicions: . That seems solid enough to use. 9kat (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * So now we have claims along a north-south corridor about 500 km or so long crossing Mali from almost the Burkina-Faso border to almost the Algerian border. The text of our article presently looks fine - we list the claims and source them. Boud (talk) 20:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Gossi/Boulikessi
There's an AP story that sounds like Boulikessi near Gossi (Diendiere claim) is a serious claim: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/air-algerie-crash_n_5617303.html. I'll let others update... Boud (talk) 23:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, this seems like the most legitimate claim so far. RSes seem to be treating it more seriously than earlier ones. Should be added, but I don't have time to properly update it right now either. 9kat (talk) 23:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Chilean woman amongst the victims
A Chilean woman living in Burkina Faso for about 30 years is amongst the victims of this flight, her name is María Paulina Neira Juliá. She is also a French citizen (so she is probably included in the French casualties). Family members in Santiago, Chile confirmed that she was on the flight. I think it should be noted that she is also Chilean (like in the Malaysia Airlines flight)

http://noticias.terra.cl/nacional/familiares-chilena-murio-en-tragedia-del-avion-air-algerie,e2f8c20adaa67410VgnVCM3000009af154d0RCRD.html (Spanish) Gonzalochileno (talk) 01:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

a huge sandstorm
there was a huge sandstorm according to several major sources.bbc, etc92.109.153.185 (talk) 00:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've heard it was thunderstorms. Could you please add some links to these sources? United States Man (talk) 01:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sandstorm?
How credible are the reports that a sandstorm may have been responsible, like this from the Guardian? Can sand glassify on jet engines, in the same way that volcanic ash can? CS Miller (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know how crediblr the reports are, wait for the investigators to report. Given hot enough temperatures it is feasible that sand could glassify, but again we need to wait. Mjroots (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Aircraft history
I've restored the full history of the aircraft to the article. More is better here, and the full history of registrations carried makes the sourcing and cataloguing of images easier. Mjroots (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I have tried twice now to remove the detailed history of EC-LTV, as I do not find it relevant enough- I summarized it (stated previous operators), which I think is necessary for this article. orcair (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Which indicates that consensus is against you, . Per WP:BRD, we now discuss the issue here. Mjroots (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * To my knowledge, only you reverted my edits. Nonetheless, per both MH17 and GE222 articles, I believe a summarized version of the current aircraft section is more beneficial to the article. I would prefer having one concise paragraph of history, versus the two complex ones the page currently has. Orcair (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

??? Service history ??? Is there service history available ?

??? Retirement Schedule ??? an 18 year old plane... Taxis last 4 to 6 years, semi trucks 11 years (1.5 million miles) what is the average retirement age? (I suspect number of pressurizations is the measure)

BobTheBuilder Oz (talk) 09:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

People on board
I just changed the ITN section of the front page to agree with this article on the number of casualties (from 116 to 118) but now I am not so sure that was the right thing to do. Recent reports are still saying 116.
 * The change from 116 to 118 was made by an IP in this series of edits including inappropriately changing the titles of citations to agree with the new figure and removing citation needed templates. This editor is clearly not to be trusted so I have reverted those changes. The only source actually stating 118 is the LA Times and even they contrarily give 116 in the map caption which doesn't inspire confidence in them as a source.  CNN and BBC are still reporting 116. SpinningSpark 10:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC) and 10:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, the numbers not adding up in the table are a joke. Constructing a table from disparate sources is WP:SYNTH and unsurprisingly has an inconsistent result. SpinningSpark 09:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The same IP editor as above changed the French casualties from 50 to 54 in the table which is the reason it no longer adds to 116. I was about to revert that too but got edit conflicted by  putting in a source for 54. SpinningSpark 10:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Nominative list of passsangers of Flight 5017. Krenakarore  TK 11:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That lists 53 French and totals to 108. SpinningSpark 12:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

93.109.21.53
If you have anything to add that I missed, please reply here. Thank you. Dustin ( talk ) 19:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Early conflicting reports of crash site - proposed removal of the subsection
I propose removing the subsection "Early conflicting reports of crash site". The fact that it took half a day to find the crash site and then to get the info to the media, and the fact that some of the mainstream Western reliable sources have been a little careless about checking the geography of Mali (even as of today, The Independent thinks that it was found "in northern Mali" but later corrects it to Gossi without noticing the contradiction) are interesting data for mainstream media/RS analysis, but they don't seem to be useful long term info about AH5017 itself.

Any objections to removing the "Early conflicting reports of crash site" subsection? Maybe check first in case anything there could be useful elsewhere. Boud (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete – I don't think this section is that notable. United States Man (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete section, but condense to one sentence noting there were initial conflicting reports. 9kat (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, we definitely don't need a pull quote. 31.153.116.129 (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * comment - Just re-reading - it's as much embarrassing for Air Algerie (is 500 or so km south of the Algerian border really "near"?) and for the president of Mali as it is for media - either they were misquoted or they didn't state their level of uncertainty clearly enough or the chain of communication up to them doesn't include enough checking. This doesn't change my proposal - anyone really interested in analysis can check the that includes these sourced tidbits of information (though some source URLs might be volatile). Boud (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is the section:
 * The aircraft's flight route took it over Mali, and it was reported to have disappeared between Gao and Tessalit.
 * French forces reported detecting wreckage of the aircraft in an area between Gao and Kidal, in a desert region that is difficult to access. France has sent a military unit to secure the wreckage of the Air Algérie plane. Malian President Ibrahim Boubacar Keïta said wreckage had been found in the country's northern desert, between Aguelhok and Kidal. There were also reports of wreckage being found near the town of Tilemsi in Mali, with officials from Algeria, Burkina Faso, and France having issued conflicting details.

I undertand this to be talking about different sites, not just people not understanding the geography wrongly. I think I'll put it back in because I think it's interesting. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

French sources
Some additional French sources I found: WhisperToMe (talk) 12:12, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Crash au Mali: l’enquête s’annonce longue et le recueil des dépouilles difficile." Agence France Presse at Libération. 28 July 2014.
 * "Accident d'Air Algérie: Les paramètres du vol extraits d'une boîte noire, pas encore les conversations du cockpit." 20 Minutes. 28 July 2014.
 * Albertini, Dominique. "Crash du vol AH5017 : toujours aucune certitude sur les causes du drame." Libération. 7 August 2014.

Latest BEA page in French: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.ah.5017/vol.ah.5017.php - http://www.webcitation.org/6XV8IlrSG - WhisperToMe (talk) 00:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Latest BEA page in English: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.ah.5017/flight.ah.5017.php - http://www.webcitation.org/6XhFh91tC WhisperToMe (talk) 00:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)