Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 10

Grammar edit to Hidan, please.
Part of Hidan's section reads "buries the, still speaking, remains". This should obviously read "buries the still-speaking remains". Can someone with the ability to edit please take care of that? Moghendhim 13:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * truthfully the sentence can go either way but it's fine the way it is right now. Thanks for pointing that out and I hope that soon you will be able to edit this page as well. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. The way it was really wasn't correct grammatically. The Splendiferous Gegiford 21:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you say so. i thought it was alright after eading it a couple of times. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It actually is correct grammar. If you take out the "still speaking", it would read "buries the remains". "still speaking" is describing the remains. It would be better without the commas, but it still is correct. Jazz Band Member 23:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * thanks for pointing that out I knew my teacher said something about that last year then again I hate english litature. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Isn't wrong because they differ in the essence. The first one is more accurate, though. "Buries, the still-speaking, remains" means that all remains were buried, and "buries the still-speaking remains" means that only the remains that still-speak were buried

Deletion review
OK - the deletion review endorsed the deletion of the original list of Akatsuki members. This means that all the information in this article that isn't sourced properly (and that means not to a primary source - i.e. the game itself) is subject to deletion at any time. I'm not going to decimate the article now, I'll give the editors here a week to source the article correctly in line with Wikipedia guidelines. So - it's your choice, folks - instead of arguing about trivia, let's get this article into a state where it deserves to stay on Wikipedia.  E LIMINATOR JR  01:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You just want this article merged, don'tcha? Nothing here is unreferenced, and the series and databooks are third party references. Delete it and I'll bring it back, despite whatever complaints the admins make. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The series and databooks are not third party references - they are primary sources from which the subject material is derived, and thus do not meet WP:FICT's requirements. In any case, saving the articles is perfectly fine as long as you do not recreate them, which as Eliminator pointed out below, makes it subject to deletion under CSD G4. Also note that if you do recreate the pages, you may be subject to a block. Furthermore, please assume good faith with Eliminator. He is as willing as anyone here to keep this article; however, WP:FICT does need to be upheld, and it is our job to attempt to ensure that it is. If we cannot keep this article, then deal with it. Recreate the article when such sources are discovered. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah while I don't like what Eliminator is doing, he is so far one of the FEW admins who've actually spoken to us like equals, I.E. Given us a chance to figure out just what the fudge we have to do to save the article, not show up with a AfD and say "This isn't a place for you Fanbois go to the Naruto Wiki!" (I made the last part up. A little pick me up.) so everyone lets lay off the messenger.--TheUltimate3 21:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, assume good faith. The AfD brought up a valid concern over the notability of the article under WP:FICT, which was then endorsed at deletion review. The material merged here was preferable in any case. As per Jimbo's statements, admins are not "higher" than you, and your statements give the impression that you are providing a blanket assumption of bad faith to all administrators, which is definitely not warranted. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 23:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I was assuming good faith with Eliminator. However I can argue that admins are "higher" than me (and a few others as well) by the mere fact that they have Policy to back them up, while all I have is gut feeling. Policy trumps Gut Feeling thus they are higher than me. I will B and Moan but thats the honest truth that I have to live with. Though while the "Fanbois" statement was ment to make the obvious bleak situation more bareable before as we lose one day to the seemingly "Nothing can stop the envitable" deletion of the Akatsuki page I do remember a while back someone did actually say in the midst of the Deletion Chronicles "Go to the Naruto wiki" so thats where the joke came from.--TheUltimate3 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If anyone had policy backing them on a decision, then they would generally be on the winning side of the argument, unless following policy in such a case would be nonsensical to the point where WP:IAR would apply. Being an administrator has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that administrators tend to have a greater grasp of policy and its application than non-administrators do, as per the exacting standards at WP:RFA. And if this article is deleted, then we'll deal with it, and possibly fix List of Naruto villains to incorporate elements of this page, possibly stripping many of the utterly minor and redundant characters out in the process. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 23:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think this page needs to be deleted - it's certainly got some notability as a stand-alone article, it just needs tidying up, spurious detail stripping out, and (of course) sourcing properly.  E LIMINATOR JR  14:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah. Discussion got carried away too far to the point where I lost the original intent of your message. My bad. In any case, there's no reason my suggestions below shouldn't be implemented, and the stripping of in-universe details wouldn't be a bad thing. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 17:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And toss the info of the Akatsuki Organization, like their goal, the rings and the like?--TheUltimate3 23:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There needs to be nothing more than a short review. It's a large mess of in-universe information that can be reduced. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 01:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So what you are suggesting,is that we have a list of villains that,bear with me here,says almost nothing about who they are,what they do,or why they're considered villains in the first place.Just a list saying they're villains.That about it?Lastbetrayal 02:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how that information cannot be condensed into a paragraph or two. If you cut out the extraneous details, then it's fine. In any case, that is a final resort should we be unable to add sources relating third party coverage of this topic, and is suitable given the circumstances. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 03:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ummm.... I just noticed, you called this a game. Akatsuki is a fictional organization in the manga and anime series Naruto. I don't think that fictional book series (manga and comics and others count) and all sub-pages (which this is, to the Naruto article) can't use the series itself as a source. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I never called Akatsuki a game. I also never said that primary sources could not be used. I'm merely pointing to the fact that only primary sources do not satisfy WP:FICT. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 17:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Which is why the policy "Ignore All Rules" exists,and the phrase "occasional exception" is included in the guideline explanation.Also he was refering to EliminatorJr with the games comment.And on a side note,virtually every subject in the world could condensed into a paragraph or two.That however,does not mean that they should be.Lastbetrayal 20:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:IAR is only implemented in the strictest of circumstances, where there exists almost overwhelming consensus to ignore rules in order to improve the encyclopedia. This isn't really the case. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 20:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He's right, everything can be put in two-paragraphs, (one-sentence, actually), but that doesn't mean they should. And we don't have only primary sources, only "just about everyone of them is a primary source but we still have other sources so it doesn't count". Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The Countdown Begins
We have one week. One week to figure out what we could possibly use as a "secondary source" or the article goes bye-bye. Guidelines are simple: No fansites, so a good 70% of places would probably fall under this category. And before people even start here it is Primary Sources Suck: Very simple to understand and should not be argued; To Wikipedia, Primary Sources suck. If it ain't worth a college professor writing a 900 word essay comparing it to Nazi Germany, it ain't important (apparently).


 * Without pointing out all the errors in this message, I did not say the article would be deleted. I said that unsourced material may be removed.  E LIMINATOR JR  12:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

With all this in mind, and ignoring Other Crap Exists, our biggest concern shouldn't be updating the info rather than sourcing it. Anyone got any ideas?--TheUltimate3 02:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Snapper2 already added in a few sources from IGN. And I thought it was said the "third-party source" thing "doesn't apply to a fiction article unless it contains unreffed out of universe info". The Splendiferous Gegiford 04:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that sourcing in-universe details with third party websites is pretty irrelevant. You would need something along the lines of:
 * Merchandise on the characters. Toys, memorabilia, facsimiles, etc. from a verifiable third party source.
 * Actual reception on the characters. For instance, a third party source criticizing or praising a character's design, development, or other features. The big problem is that most of this stuff has not been released in English. Ergo, you will need someone who can read Japanese to fish through Japanese websites, magazines, newspapers, or whatever for such reception.
 * Comments by Kishimoto in an interview or something on the design of the characters, his opinions on them, or anything really. Again, a person who can read Japanese would help.
 * Presence in other media. List appearances in the TCG, video games, and any other information related to that. Notes from the developers of the video games would be nice also.
 * And that's some things we can do. As most of us likely do not read Japanese to that degree of fluency, I would recommend acquiring the services of someone who does. Also note that if this does work, and all of the above is added, we could actually get this article to GA status, a rather ironic twist on the situation. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 04:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * and no-one would be more pleased than me if that happened.  E LIMINATOR JR  12:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Finding third party sources that cover primary source facts has some relevance, as Wikipeida guidelines like it better when CNN tells you that grass is green, not grass itself telling you what color it is. I've found a website with character information that does not qualify as a Naruto fansite, but its information is reliant on the Japanese anime and thus it does not cover much of this article's contents yet.
 * As for out-of-universe stuff for each character, there does not necessarily need to be a high level of it. To use Characters of Final Fantasy VIII for structural reference, only the major characters have any level of conception/reception/what have you information, and even then it is relatively minimal in comparison to in-universe info. Only the primary topic (in this case Akatsuki) needs any substantial coverage, not that that's going to be any easier. ~SnapperTo 18:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry I only know one person who MAY speak Japanese, and he's one of my teachers. I can't possibly ask him to go through Japanese websites for Akatsuki stuff with the busy work days he has.--TheUltimate3 10:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Can we delay this deletion of sources until Naruto Shippuden's anime has reached the English speaking nations and there will be third-party reliable sources provided?  σмgн gσмg  12:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That will be like in 2012. Way too far in the future for keeping the article to be justified. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 19:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I know the admins are just doing their jobs but this is ridiculous, a week, ha that's a good one we need more like 2 weeks to find a Japanese speaking wikipedian with lots of time on his/her hands. But maybe it can be done in a week I'll start looking for some Japanese speaking wikipedians with a lot of time on their hands. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Just forget it, I've saved every Naruto article we have on my Microsoft Word and I update the collection dayly. If one gets deleted, it'll be easy for it to be put back. Nothing here goes unreferenced. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Er, no. If an article gets deleted through AfD, just putting it back is grounds for speedy deletion WP:CSD.  Unless of course, it is greatly improved from the deleted version.  E LIMINATOR JR  21:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wait, I made that before finding out you wouldn't delete it. Sorry. ^_^ Still, I'd only do so if it was a case of power-abuse, like the members article. If one presented actual reasons (although I still prefer merge over deletion) or if it was merged, then I'd just forget about that article. Anyway, as said, little if not none of the things mentioned go unreferenced. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And as I mentioned above, all the references (save the IGN references, which are still only sourcing in-universe details), are primary sources, and are not grounds for keeping the article under WP:FICT. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 21:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think someone put a link in a past discussion to Kishimoto saying Konan was quite strong. I'll search for it. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I checked with my teacher whom I thought spoke Japanese. Turns out not fluently, well not enough to help translate a website. So thats out and I haven't an idea on where to look next.--TheUltimate3 17:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2654068&postcount=20 Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

listen to this
Itachi once mentiond during his confrontation with Jiraiya that [as ordered by our superiors], doesnt this signify that there is a heirarchy in Akatsuki?

And another, there are a total of nine tailed - beasts, if each member has a target, then what about the other member during the time when Akatsuki has 10 members? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.53.229.168 (talk) 06:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Good eyes. I'd have to say its, as dumb as this sounds, is due to the fact that Uchiha Madara doesnt need a "Tailed beast" becuase of his already high level of strength. Although if we are patient, perhaps they will shed light on this later. Perhaps not. We'll have to wait and see. --Chipmonk328 7 September 2007
 * zetsu is a hunter-nin he does look out and is the taxi for the dead body —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 04:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There was never a time when there were ten members at once, so that explains it. Orochimaru left before Deidara, Tobi, and Hidan joined. Sasori, Kakuzu, Deidara and (to an extent) Hidan are dead. Tobi faked his death as part of his "master plan" (evil laughter). Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Akatsuki's numbers have shifted somewhat over time. It's impossible to tell exactly what happened, but I highly doubt they had less than 10 members at the beginning. They talked about Orochimaru's absence slowing down the ritual as if they were used to having the full 10

members. And apparently it's not that hard to come up with a lower-level S-class criminal. And BTW, going by the latest chapter, Uchiha Madara actually controlled the Ninetails (which would explain putting an Uchiha for that bijuu with a backup who can absorb chakra) and still couldn't even beat the 1st Hokage, so I think people have been heavily overrating his personal strength. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.121.199 (talk) 04:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

they did have 10 members at the beginning... to list them we have: 1. Pein 2. Konan 3. Itachi 4. Kisame 5. Sasori 6. Orochimaru 7. Hidan 8. Kakuzu 9. Deidera(he replaced Orochimaru as Sasori's parnter, but as the VOID ring was with him, he          still remains a member in theory) 10.Madara(he's the mastermind behind akatsuki, but it's unknown if the other members are aware         of his presence.

Pein, a father
Should we say how he was once a father and a husnad, also those clone like things? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 21:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

How's Pein a father or a husband? And to who?

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/narutochapter369english.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=44796 Here is the exact saying killed wife, children ect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 03:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He killed the leader of Amegakure's family (Hanzou the Salamander), not his own.  σмgн gσмg  03:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

ok, but are all those clones different except those eyes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 03:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC) it's stated he killed is wife and kids (servering all ties with his village) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 04:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And what's the text on the bottom of the capsules? One looks like the Hokage symbol. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The info about Pein really needs to be tweaked. He didn't lead a faction in the civil war, that's misinformation that Jiraiya picked up while spying. The reason Pein is seen as a god is because he defeated the entire village by himself. It's right there on page 9 of chapter 369. The so-called faction below him was just a bunch of ninja he collected and brought to the village. They didn't actually help in the fight. And the ruthlessness is just another example of Pein's "godlike" actions. Beating Hanzo alone and wiping out his family is only part of what he did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.7.225 (talk) 05:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * When said like that, yes in a way, he DID lead a faction, he also, however, managed to win single handedly, without their help. They wear the headband with a scar through it, why wouldn't they be from the village? Why else would they wear Rain ninja headbands unless that was where they were from? Sovenjers? I think not! But, put into wiki perspective, we can't say for certain that he didnt, so it shouldn't be changed. Chipmonk328 10 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein never had a wife or children. When it says that he "killed his wife and children," it means he killed Salamander Hanzo's wife and children. Remember? He killed Hanzo's family and friends.TinselTunes) 01:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.68.190.99 (talk)

Fuuma Pein/Pein Fuuma?
Yes, yes, bad time in the middle of this deletion debate, but, it seems the latest chapter confirmed or atleast hinted at Pein's surname being 'Fuuma'. Now, I'm not sure if this is the same as the anime Fuuma, but, it's worth a mention. DarkRyan75 22:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * See? This is why anime and other non-canon information should be omitted entirely from the Naruto articles. Kishimoto occasionally contradicts the information in the anime and I'm more willing to go off what he says than what some third-party writers say. 214.13.209.200 11:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Who said the anime is non-canon? The Seven Swordsmen of the Mist appeared in the anime first. And don't say they aren't the same, because Kisame and Zabuza are members in both.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We should wait on that. It may be one and the same Fuuma or it may not. We should wait and find out.Chipmonk328 8 September 2007
 * Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I've heard that Fuuma of Pein's clan is written with different kanji than the Fuuma clan of the Filler Arc. SwiftTheBaron 03:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

We don't know if his last anme is Fuuma. The Rain Ninja said 'they say he has Fuuma blood', not 'he is of the Fuuma clan'. Also there is a big banner that won't go away, relating to the 'in universe' nature of the article. Could somebody adress it by getting rid of the tenses, like saying 'Original Members' instead of current members and 'changes to the Akatsuki roster' and change the order around. Remove their 'current status' part from their description and whatnot. 15:59, 16 September 2007

The clones
maybe those clone things are the 5 former members plus one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.129.200 (talk) 01:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * NOTE!: DON'T leave a space before you're comment, as it will only stretch the page. Anyway, he also stepped in the capsule things, too. And we should avoid anything on it until the next chapter comes out. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Pain or Pein?
what is the spelling of his name? Pain or Pein, in manga chapter 369 they use Pain, but in the rest they use Pein, does anyone know?....this is such a pain, sorry just had to say that-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   08:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's Pein. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks, it looks like pein/pain/payne are all correct its just the way you translate it-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   09:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it has to be Pein, we are following the direct translation.  σмgн gσмg  09:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * pein sounds better anyway-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   09:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Page is looking good
Just needs a small image for the active members now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't even understand what was the point of taking them off in the first place. Yxgtree 11:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Basically "Blah Blah blah too many". Pein should have an image, though, and chapter 369 has a very good pic of him without balloons or anything. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * you mean page 14, when he says "it was judgment"?-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   13:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the usefulness of having the images there greatly exceeds the 5 or so seconds time that can be shaved off them for loading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * All of them are in the spread except Sasori. Pein's face wasn't seen, so he's a keep too. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * well someone else will have to revert my revert as i have reverted 2 times today-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   15:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

They're all in the spread. If you continue, it's possible we might not have images at all. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A way to hide the long Ref list?
Didn't we find a way to while keeping the Reflist, making it smaller by hiding most of it. Just curious because I thought we finnally found one.--TheUltimate3 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It made references not work. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Words on Pein's Capsules
One of the Japanese characters on one of the capsules means one (The one Pein entered). Another says six (across from Pein's capsule). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 21:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Template
Ummm, there's a discussion here about changing the character template. Since no one will likely ever look there, I thought it should've been mentioned here, the most commonly edited talk page, so it'll be more than three people. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Stupid little detail people
Um...on Sasori's dscription of his poison, it says that it kills unless a truly great medical-nin is there. Shouldn't you say that Sakura is the only person who ever figured out the antidote due to it's very difficult recipe? just a thought 209.137.230.93 22:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)(is that what i was supposed to do?)


 * Well, we don't know for sure if Sakura is the only person to figure out the recipe. Given that she underwent training for only two years, it's doubtful that she'll be making great strides in the medical field. It could be possible, but since Wikipedia centers on verifiability, and we have no way to check that fact thoroughly enough, it's best to stay with what we currently have. I'm not so sure about what you mean by your parenthetical statement, but you didn't seem to do anything wrong. Thank you for your questions. Regards,  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 22:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I just thought I'd mention it. My statement was because i wasn't sure what those tildes did and i wasn't sure if i put em' in the right place. Kakashi The Mirror Ninja 22:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I beg to differ. She trained under Tsunade. Meaning her training was anything but average for a medical Nin. And Chiyo baa-sama saw that in Sakura. She could very likely HAVE learned that much in such a short time. As odd as that sounds, that is what I belive. If you look at it, you might see what I mean. Chipmonk328 13 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 12:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Image Amendments
First of all, do not yell at me for bringing this discussion up. I am simply an editor - and reader - who has some concerns about this article. I remained out of the image dispute earlier because I knew something like this would happen.

Anywho. Here's what I propose:


 * 1) Add a facial picture of only Pein and Konan, because they cannot be seen clearly in the group picture.
 * 2) Add a picture for Sasori because he isn't even in the group picture.

And might I add that three (small) extra pictures - especially on an article this large - discussing the topic at hand that are not portrayed anywhere else would not in any way be a gallery, for those who would try to throw that in my face. Of course, feel free to disagree with me, or agree if you are inclined to. I am simply attempting to improve this article. -- ~|ET|~ (Talk) 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll certainly disagree with you, not on the suggested changes, but your claim of abuse. No-one was abusing their power as admins - they were complying with Wikipedia policy.   E LIMINATOR JR  22:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is but how I view things. Just as I am entitled to my opinion, so are you. Perhaps I just shouldn't have said it. But, that is not what I want to be discussed here, so the comment has since been removed. -- ~|ET|~ (Talk) 22:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Curious do you use some kind of Gem loop or binoculars when you look at that Akatsuki group picture because Kakuzu's face is barely visable as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 03:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation Error
暁 is pronounced "akatsuki," but it does not mean red moon -- it means "the break of dawn." Red Moon, which is also pronounced akatsuki, would be written as such 赤月. Konamaiki 01:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good catch. That was actual either a misinformed editor, or a vandal who thought nobody would catch it. I'll be changing it now. Thanks! EDIT: Someone beat me to it. But it was changed.--TheUltimate3 01:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That "misinformed editor" would be me. If you look up Akatsuki, it says that it means "Red Moon". But if you look up Akatsuki (naruto) it says that it means "Dawn". Funny, ain't it?--Cathy

A Good Boy
It has said already that Tobi is refered to as "a good boy" and It says that it implies he is relitively young. However on Uchiha Madara's page, it says that he is Tobi AND battled the first hokage. Thus, he cannot be young at all. is that correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.155.127.246 (talk) 20:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Who the fudge knows man. Its clear that Zetsu called him a good boy making him young, yet it's also true that he battled the First.--TheUltimate3 20:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's not clear that Tobi fought the first. Uchiha Madara fought the first, not Tobi. There is no proof that Tobi is Madara.--71.237.88.74 21:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've had problem with that whole "good boy" thing I think that just because Zetsu said "Good boy" doesn't make him young alot of people say good boy and that doesn't mean they're young. I think we should wait for conformation on his age. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * @ 71.237.88.74, Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * you know, him being refered to as "good boy" doesn't really mean that he's young, even when everything points to that he is Uchiha Madara ((who isn't really that young)), his age is still unknown. "good boy" most likely points to his personality at the time, because he acted like a child.--Redkitty 2:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") - "The Sharingan's true power...I, Uchiha Madara's power." He isn't saying that he is Madara, just holds his powers.

Boom. No logic has yet to beat this, and two: Read the latest chapter. Pretty much sums it all up.--TheUltimate3 21:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that Zetsu and the others don't know that Tobi is Madara. Only Konan and Pein know. Tobi being a "good boy" is all an act. -Cathy

Ch. 370
In this chapter, Jiraiya reveals to one of his frogs that the Nine-tailed Fox was released by Madara Uchiha himself (The clan's founder), to attack the Leaf Village. The frog says that's crazy, as Madara was around during the time of the village's foundation. Madara was supposedly killed by the Fist Hokage at the Valley of the End. A statue of Madara was built there (shown during Naruto vs. Sasuke). Despite the frog saying it's crazy that Madara is still alive, Jiraiya says that he has a bad feeling about this (Jiraiya is supposedly gonna go fight Pein). Elsewhere, we see Tobi staring down at the image of Madara! His sharingan eye then begins to glow. Now, we know what Madara looks like. I'm not sure if this further reinforces that Tobi is Madara or not. Anyway, more secrets are revealed in chapter 370. I just wanted to mention Akatsuki-related stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then get your spoilers straight. He speculates that someone may have summoned the Kyuubi on Konoha and mentions that Madara had summoned the Kyuubi on a prior occasion. –Gunslinger47 01:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 02:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I don't which dumbasses decided Tobi was Madara, considering even the best translations show that he says he has Madara's power, not the he is Madara. Also, he said that the only person able to summon the Kyuubi was Madara, so it would only make sense if the Kyuubi summoning at Naruto's birth was a result of Tobi using his power to do so. All text declaring that Tobi is Madara should be edited and kept that way. --

71.237.88.74 21:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the best translations say that he is calling himself Madara. You're not reading the best translations. The Splendiferous Gegiford 23:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Erm... it never said Madara had summoned the Kyuubi on a previous occasion. Jiraiya simply said that he "might have been capable of it."


 * About Tobi/Madara Uchiha: Since Madara is suggested to be the one who released the Nine tailed fox, and his age is in question, it should be suggested Madara has a means to eternal youth/life. The reasons I dont think it can be SPECULATION is because Madara was around when Konoha was built. Shodai Hokage defeated Madara but it's doubtful he killed him with all these references. There's no reason someone like Shodai Hokage would still be alive today. Sandaime Hokage was 69 before he died and was trained by the 1st and 2nd Hokages. The former Akatsuki members: Sasori, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, and Hidan all cheated death in some way. Sasori being a human puppet, Kakuzu stealing hearts (and fighting the 1st Hokage), Orochimaru stealing bodies, and Hidan just being immortal. Why would they show Jiraiya talking about Madara then unless it means something? Pein is called a God, yet he takes orders from Tobi? There may be some of you thinking Im just trying to throw Tobi a bone for having some ability, while to others it makes perfect sense. Anyway, Id like if someone put back what I changed or tell me why it doesnt belong. Just talk about it, as I really just want people to think about it. I know the regulars here want to protect their free source property of the Akatsuki section of Naruto. Wikipedia is mostly opinions mixed with facts, but there's a large grey area called rumors since the series isnt complete yet. I dont see how much fun people will have here once it is complete and at least this idea has the manga as a source. Much of Akatsuki is still shrouded in mystery, and even the Uchiha clan has a dark secret mentioned MANY times! So there is room to change things later on if Im wrong. Yet try proving why its wrong or right. Jeydo 20:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It actually is speculation. Given the fact that this series takes place in a separate Universe from ours and that we have an extremely limited understanding of its workings, we really can't say that any one particular fact is triggered by a single cause unless it is blatantly obvious. Lots of other things could have happened. For example, Madara could have been reborn. Or, his spirit could have taken over somebody else's body/corpse. Perhaps he even travelled through time. The point is, any of these are equally plausible and as such equally speculative as any other theory. For the time being, it's best to stick solely to what the manga gives us.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 20:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If they put a time travel twist on this series, I think Im going to cry 'DBZ did it!' and stop reading. Isnt Orichimaru being reborn when he switches bodies? I never stated that 'eternal youth' was the answer, but merely pointed it as a possibility to explain why Madara was still alive. Tobi is much like Naruto in that almost no one cared about him until he displayed some form of power and authority. He is definitely a trickster and likely used the battle between Deidara vs. Sasuke to learn his movements through the Sharingan to plan a strategy against Sasuke. He survived that battle and led the others to think he was dead. When the series is done, I have a feeling the manga is going to leave a lot of things unanswered too. There will be no time for speculation then, unless noisy fans cause a uproar for more material to be made to explain things. They explained Kakashi's eye, and they better use manga to deal with certain issues before it gets made into a bad filler anime. did we forget about the filler yet? Speculating about what happened in the three year gap would have been better filler IMO. I feel like everything I contribute is on a chalkboard waiting to get erased..is there a website outside of Wiki that the majority disagree or agree upon so that the effort of my work isnt in vain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeydo (talk • contribs) 21:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a Naruto Wikia out there, but it's heavily undermaintained. Anyways, my point in bringing up those alternative theories was not simply to theorize but to illustrate the fact that other things can go on and that if we choose to speculate we may give others the wrong information and embarass ourselves by being completely off mark. Sorry for any confusion.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 06:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Kohan
Should we put what the side says for kohan http://saiyanisland.com/370/?a=view&id=&image=1
 * Why? It's a waste of space. -- Cathy


 * First of all, its Konan and not Kohan. And that phrase doesn't describe anything about her Enoch08 07:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't kill anyone just to have a few pictures instead of nothing! Yxgtree 15:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Rain genin examinees of part 1 and the fall of the rain village in part 2
In part 1(before the time skip), some rain genin did attend the chunin exam in konoha but it appears clear that in part 2, the pein had conquered the rain village. with this fact, it seems to show that the rain village was destroyed (or at least conquered) by pein around the timeskip. However, what makes it unclear to me is that the akatzuki may have started (as an organization) before the chunin exam considering that itachi and kisame (both akatzuki at that time) arrived right after the chunin exam and orochimaru had joined (and defected) the akatsuki organization before the chunin exam. Does that mean pein conquered the rain village after founding or leading the akatzuki? --122.144.116.22 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, lets not speculate. Wait until the information has been released.  σмgн gσмg  10:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We have no reason to believe that Pein destroyed Hidden Rain. All we know is that he single-handedly ended the civil war.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 20:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The Pictures
What happened to the pictures? Without any pictures people who look at this section will wonder what they really look like or can't trust google images because most of them on there are fake. They want accuate picture's, in color if shown in the anime and in black & white of not been shown in the anime... That's all I have to say...


 * Wiki Policy. Couldn't keep the that many images on the page because of an supposed "overuse". Feel free to challange the policy at the Policy descussion.--TheUltimate3 15:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added pictures but wiki seems to think that you can see Sasori in the spread-- Blue-Eyes  Gold Dragon   02:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * -agrees- Also We need freakin Konan and Pain pics. I mean, you cannot clearly see them in the above picture.--Chipmonk328

tobi's true face
tobi's face was already shown...check out Chapter 370 : Uneasiness it says that madara uchiha is the founder of itachi clan and was there when the first hokage found the konoha ... the first was the one who battled with tobi thats why he wears a mask ... but the present tobi's face isn't shown yet

http://pic60.picturetrail.com/VOL1674/8382946/16905358/278369137.jpg


 * It isn't set in stone that Tobi is Madara.


 * Even if he was telling the truth, he could have switched to a younger body, meaning he could look entirely different. –Gunslinger47 23:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * We can say this much without a doubt, that picture IS a picture of Uchiha Madara/Tobi... now all we need to know is if it matches his current appearance or not..--Chipmonk328

Akatsuki meaning
I have heard akatsuki to mean both Red Moon and Dawn. To which does it apply? On the current page it's listed as Dawn, but I'm not sure that's right. (then of course I could just be rather dull) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mollychan (talk • contribs) 21:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Akatsuki is a single word that refers to the dawn. This word was created by combining two other words (red and moon), but that doesn't make the meaning of the word "red moon" as it is used.  Think of it as "redmoon" in the same way "strawberry" doesn't mean a berry made of straw.  If you were to translate "red moon" to Japanese you get "akai tsuki" (赤い月).  Note that "red" is pronounced differently when used as an adjective. –Gunslinger47 23:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is 暁 dawn. For those that still doubt check here: http://catalog.bandai.co.jp/item/4543112355683000.html 暁のマント (Akatsuki 'dawn' mantle)Konamaiki 04:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

tobi/obito
i don't know if this theory have already been told around here. but lots of people thing that tobi is obito the sidekicks that give his eye to kakashi. the position of his unmasked sharingan eye reverse to kakashi's sharingan eye plus obito has the same hairstyle than obito.chapter 370 gived intel that the 4th was aware of something and put the kyubi in naruto on purpose.maybe "kakashi gaiden" as the only arc involving the 4th could give some intel on this.griiot(82.227.37.103 00:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)).


 * Original research. We don't include theories or speculation. This has been talked about countless times. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 01:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)