Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 9

Split
The members have been moved off to their own page to shorten this article and so we can concentrate more on the organization rather than the members. Also, all the removed images have been restored to both pages. We'll decide which are needed and which aren't later. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 18:46 (Eastern Standard Time), 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * could someone lock the other article people are like putting bunch of unnecessary pictures and info to the article

Akatsuki Face
OK, we need a piture of his face and his body now or until the next chapter comes out http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p198/xdrshane/46090_c8j3mcdj_1_123_193lo.jpg


 * Translated text from the RAW:
 * Akatsuki Leader: Naruto, I'm not your father!
 * Naruto: That's not true! That's impossible!
 * X-D –Gunslinger47 01:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * http://i10.tinypic.com/61nqt5l.jpg


 * http://i8.tinypic.com/4yioz6c.jpg


 * http://i17.tinypic.com/54btzx3.jpg (HQ)

Shadow Guy
At the end of ch. 363 whose pein talking to?

Can we please include mention of this "shadow guy" somewhere in the akatsuki page? Maybe not under members since he/it does not appear to be a member, but rather their overlord, sort of the boss above the boss. We definitely need to mention him/it SOMEWHERE in the akatsuki article, even if we obviously know very little about his/its identity as yet, due to the extremely high potential plot importance of his appearance and relationship with pein/blue hair member.

67.175.45.138 02:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Given what we know and do not know about this guy/gal, I vote we mention him/her on the Atasuki page very briefly and NOT the "members" page, since for all we know this person could be a patron/client of the organization and not actually its ultimate leader

Let's wait a few more days and hopefully more info will be released. A(S)XiaoXShekki 18:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Hes cleerly the root commander guy. sorry for the speculation, but meh i dont care82.69.83.28 13:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He's not "clearly" anything. Like I said, Akatsuki is a mercenary organization and it's possible that they are working for shadow guy and he isn't actually part of the group.  That would certianly explain why Pein is still called leader even if he is taking direction from someone else.  I wouldn't be surprised if he is actually the founder of Akatsuki or something myself, but again, the issue is whether he belongs on the roster of Akatsuki members, and the answer is that we just don't know yet so why bother?  There is no rush update just to add every single piece of latest information we think we have. Plunge 19:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

wow. shadow guy = TOBI = MADARA UCHIHA. groundbreaking info we must edit !!! 67.175.45.138 13:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See, this is the attitude that drives me nuts. Our goal is not to be a fan blog where we MUST UPDATE.  It's to write good articles.  Fast does not always equal good, and tiny bits of spoiler info are never going to be as good as a final version written from the perspective of knowing the whole story.  A small update to Tobi's entry is fine, but we should wait and read much more of the story so that we can write a GOOD article about Ataksuki, rather than a slapdash one based on this one revelation.  The current article is decent: we need to learn much more about Tobi/Madara's plans and relation to Akatsuki before thinking about how to describe things. Plunge 22:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

ring
"空陳 Kūchin, the Void: formerly worn by Orochimaru and still in his possession." did no else catch this??? I changed it. We will probably have to change deidara's ring info later.

Inaccurate assumptions
""At least in Deidara's case, the leader seems to locate potential candidates for membership and has them forcibly recruited by the current members."" - Yes Itachi and co had to recruit Deidara but beating him in a fight doesn't mean he was recruited by force. Bare in mind there were plenty of opportunities for Deidara to escape and for the most part it does seem he is following Akatsuki willingly for the sake of experimenting with his art. I don't think any members are forced into the group. Everyone has their own agenda for joining but they all are there willingly.


 * When you recruit someone against their will, it's by force. It's not an assumption. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 09:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Update Needed For Akatsuki Hand Picture
The picture just needs a small edit, since the previous 'leader'- Pein, is now revealed not to be, the picture needs to be changed.
 * Well, nothing has been said about him not being the de facto leader. We have no idea what's going on with Tobi/Madara, but we do know that despite ordering Pein around, he still calls Pein the leader of Akatsuki.  That may be a little confusing, but that IS what the manga says.Plunge 00:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

things need to be done
1)This article is way to long needs to be shorted

2)I getting confused with you people, is tobi madara or not or just similar people

3)Wait until things are confired, so if until thing are said like this "Deidara is dead", we don't add to akatsuki info


 * 1st sign your posts and 2nd use proper english please. Uch  iha  23  02:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki - meaning
In my short Japanese lessons, I learned that aka is red, and tsuki moon. Why does the article speak about Akatsuki as being dawn or daybreak? It doesn't seem to make any sense to me and now I'm confused about their existence.

I have always thought that it regarded to 'Red Moon'.

Any feedback please?
 * If you read the first line of the article, you would know. Akatsuki can mean both "red moon" and "dawn," however, when the organization is described in the manga, it uses the kanji for "dawn" (暁) rather than the kanji for "red moon"　(赤月), hence it is "dawn." The great kawa 17:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Cha, I thought red moon too- can't read kanji, thanks for the clearup. Wolfie the Marshmallow 18:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ha, before I see the original kanji, I always thought it mean "Red Moon" (赤な月). --Calvin Limuel (林德耀) 14:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Mind control?
Can somebody change this inaccurate assumption?


 * Could you explain why you believe it to be inaccurate? –Gunslinger47 23:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it's precisely that. The only agents of Akatsuki who are shown to be under a form of "mind control" to date are Sasori's sleeper agents, who are merely under a jutsu that seals certain memories, and the puppet-clones that Kakashi and Gai's teams face. It's possible, certainly, but there's no real evidence for it.
 * It's true, so far the only one to place any kind of mind-altering jutsu on his underlings has been Sasori. The Splendiferous Gegiford 20:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Archieve number 8
The much needed archieve eight is here: Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archieve 8
 * yay, party???(lol, sorry coudlnt resist:P) Ancientanubis ,  talk  Editor Review 01:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Rings
I'm not sure if this was discussed but for the deceased Akatsuki members, should the rings be shown as formerly worn? (I think Hidan is an exception because he's probably still wearing his ring. -ScotchMB 02:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Kakuzu's ring hasn't been shown removed in any way, so we can't asume he's not wearing it. And Deidara's ring was probably obliterated. Since you need a ring to be a member, the fate of Hidans,Orochimarus, and Deidaras rings is probably to explain why Akatsuki haven't recruted more members.

Sorry just had to say this
Amazing how there's no more disscussions here. i guess it's cause the members section is gone. And now we will finaly be able to fix the article. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That was an indirect personal attack. Albeit, the lack of disruptive editing is welcome. In any case, this article obviously needs out-of-universe sources, but we really have nothing beyond popularity polls for the individual Akatsuki characters. As far as I know, Kishimoto has been silent on the conception/development of the organization.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 23:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok sorry if it was an indirect personal attack. What part was a personal attack? All I meant was that maybe if Kishimoto does give some real world info then this article might be a good article someday. Again sorry for the indirect personal attack, I had no idea I gave one out, sorry again. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It was an indirect personal attack against all the random anons that vandalize pages. But let's move on in any case. Until Kishimoto does give information on Akatsuki (which likely won't happen until Naruto is done), then this will stay at B-class status.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 00:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

'Roid it Down
Since a common suggestion at the AfD for List of Akatsuki members is that it be shortened and re-merged into this article, I came up with a draft for just that. Before I make the effort to remedy any problems the draft might be seen as having, I figured I'd find out how many people hate the idea and/or proposal for whatever reason. Note that I've only transfered the information that I deem necessary, so it no longer includes everything you could ever want to know and then some. ~SnapperTo 23:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Much, much better. Cheers.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 23:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For me it depends, what will this do for my merge proposal at itachi's page? Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is just a shorter proposal of your proposal. Going with this does not necessarily mean Itachi would lose his article. Should this draft be implemented we could be bold and redirect Itachi for a lack of adequate reasoning to keep his article. ~SnapperTo 03:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * True the merge would take away Itachi's reasonings for an article but being bold would result in an edit war sure we could switch off undoing their edits but that's just pointless because it wouldn't do anyone any good. The merge could either help or hurt the merge, it's just too 50/50 for my nerves to handle (I guess work has something to do with that too ^_^). Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Snapper2, that is a great draft of the Akatsuki page should the list get deleted. I love it. -ScotchMB 13:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I finished adding references for everything that is more or less said outright, leaving observations that have yet to be proven wrong alone. There are probably more refs than are necessary, but there are worse things to be had. Moving onto an out of universe tone, it occurs to me that I'm not sure which of the in-universe "criteria" apply to this article, or even what method of rewording would fix the problem. Thoughts? ~SnapperTo 00:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats something you're going to have to figure out yourself mate. I still don't see how anything made from a fictional universe could ever sound "out of universe" or even "in universe". Good luck.--TheUltimate3 01:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It sounds out-of-universe by having out-of-universe sources. There's ~140 references that all come from the source material. That should be a rather obvious indicator of what is wrong. Are there any merchandise, comments from third party sources, or anything else that can be attributed to a reliable, verifiable third party source? That's how an out-of-universe approach can be achieved.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 05:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That much I got. What I was asking is does this article suffer from "fictional character article or section written like a biography" or "plot synopsis written like an historical account"? ~SnapperTo 05:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The former somewhat, the latter hardly at all. The former results from an excessive concentration on in-universe details, which is seen in some of the sections here. The latter isn't the case due to a lack of plot summary that was thankfully left out. However, both of these problems are lessened (or even removed) when out-of-universe details are provided to place them into a relevant context. For instance, if Kishimoto published a work saying that he made Sasori in order to provide a foil to Kankuro, then that would put Sasori's puppet abilities into context. The problem is whether such information exists.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 05:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem with sources that aren't from the manga is that most of this material has not made an official transition into English, and won't until at least next year. As such there is very little content in this article that has been mentioned by anything other than fansites. I've found a couple of IGN episode reviews that cover a handful of facts about Itachi and Kisame, though that's hardly enough to function with. Is there something I can do to filter out fan sites from Google searches, or am I doomed to going through each and every one? ~SnapperTo 18:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That or hire someone who can read Japanese to sift through Japanese sites, which hopefully have more meaningful content.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 09:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This may be a little off topic but could I have the link to that IGN video?--Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 22:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan/Unnamed member
I think we should wait until the actual scanlated version comes out before we edit any of the unnamed member parts of the akatsuki page. What does everyone else thinks? -ScotchMB 17:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No. When actual pictures from the manga appear to verify the spoilers, they're real. Meaning that yes, this is legit. The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay Konan is a guys name, how could that be the unnamed member's name? It is clearly seen in the manga(without debate) that she is not a he. Deblow 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that Konan is the correct translation, but i doubt that people will want to call her that. "Shouna" will probably be the version that catches on. -Punchface —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.72.141 (talk) 20:41, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
 * Japanese ≠ English. Konan could still be used for a woman's name. And it looks like it is. The Splendiferous Gegiford 00:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should leave it as Konan until anything else is verified. 88.110.146.241 21:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with her name being Konan I'm just glad that we now know all there names. Deblow 16:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The kanji pronounciations are given and it's Konan (小南　コナン) can't really be anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.134.157 (talk) 14:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Random passerby wondering what's up with the Konan article. I don't ever remember Tobi mentioning a "top three", nor why in the world there's speculation about Ice abilites when her special abilities involve paper. I don't quite think I'm qualified to be the one to change it, but could someone throw out this trash and replace it with the facts? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.180.196.160 (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

List got deleted
Wow, the list actually got deleted. Would someone try to add the information to the members section? -ScotchMB 16:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Did anyone save a backup of the page or anything? The Splendiferous Gegiford 16:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Admin who deleted it said he would upload it to someone's userspace on the archive of the List deletion if it needs to be merged. I would do it, but I'm bad at condensing information and rewriting it. -ScotchMB 16:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I saved the entire article in its entirety before it was locked. Should we get, gut and use that?--TheUltimate3 16:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not? The article is extremely useless right now without information on the member's itself. Lets put it up and start cutting it down since that was the main reason why it got split in the first place. Also, this page be semi-protected since the list was semi-protected? The vandals might go after this page now since its going to be merged. -ScotchMB 16:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. Its going to take awhile because I have to copy and paste (to get the templates in right) and then gut.--TheUltimate3 17:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Done, though it may need to be trimmed down some more. I got rid of what I thought was useless and shortened the plot summeries at the end to atleast explain how/why people died.--TheUltimate3 17:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge
No - the result of the AfD was Delete, not Merge. There are only policy-based reasons for putting the most basic of information for the characters in the main article. For instance, the characters names, voice actors etc. Anything else violates WP:NOT, especially as the characters are summarized elsewhere in the article.  E LIMINATOR JR  18:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh so the deletion was the complete decimation of the info. Understood. Total crap but understood. Talk about a waste of time now...--TheUltimate3 18:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How would adding in info on a character violage WP:NOT? The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the majority of the character information was plot summary.  E LIMINATOR JR  18:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then you clearly didn't read then. Most of the info I put back was simply about the character (long as they were like I said they needed to be gutted a little more) and the plot was usually at the end, which I gutted into the base words.--TheUltimate3 19:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I really could care less about the decision of a third-rate admin like what's-his-name who deleted the members page. They ARE going to be listed in-depth here, and if that doesn't meet their own personal liking, to bad, Wikipedia is not their own personal empire to rule over. Anime and manga is just as notable as anything in the real world, whether they like it or not. And yes, I am angry. Very much so. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why the admins are only bothering to do this with Naruto and mostly with this article. So characters like Kisame, Deidara, Sasori, and Tobi who have influenced Naruto can't have anything said about them, but a bunch of villains like Raiga get to have three paragraphs on the minor villains page.  This is ridiculous.Crazydom 19:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because(good faith be damned)we pissed off one admin and now six have taken his place.Lastbetrayal 19:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ridiculous? This is Sparta Wikipedia, where the ones above the average editor goes on a "crusade against anime" just like Youtube, Dailymotion, or other major sites other than search engines. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes this is madness, and yes this is the result if pissing off an admin (Not Durin actually). Now we are left to pick up all the little pieces but how...--TheUltimate3 20:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First, report whoever deleted the members page. In my opinion an admin who decides to not do his job (solving problems) and delete a page because of a simple controversy that didn't have enough time to be solved shouldn't be one in the first place. Second, increase the info we have here little be little, as we should try having more than two paragraphs for the more important members. Three, see User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares/Akatsuki Test, an exact copy of the members page, save categories and such, and collect info from there to here should need be. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, we should leave it as it is. Having four paragraphs for each character is one of the reasons the last article was deleted. Keep it to the bare essentials. ~SnapperTo 17:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean all of them, I meant the ones who are still playing important roles (Tobi/Madara, Kisame, and Pein, and Itachi if (if) he gets merged). Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And I did mean all of them. Keep each character description at two paragraphs and we'll have fewer problems. ~SnapperTo 20:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Why have an article if we are just gonna half-ass it? 172.136.6.141 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.136.6.141 (talk) 04:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This is plain and simple: If You must trim. Go ahead. As long as no information to the CHARACTER is lost, then no harm done to make it shorter. As much as I HATE these merges, they do have a point to it. Also one thing that I will have to say is the dumbest thing they have done is get rid of the Akatsuki Member pics. That was just irresponsible.--Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 22:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

So. Because the admins like kicking us when we're down...
How do we put the members back into the artcle WELL without making them and the policy cry? Cause so far the only thing that comes to mind falls under this category.

EXAMPLE:
 * Pein: Leader, alive.
 * Hidan: Member, dead.

And so on and so forth.--TheUltimate3 19:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * First work on finding enough real world information for this article to stand on its own. If you can do that, listing descriptions of the members (though much, much more condense) will be fine. TTN 19:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * An impossible mission for something not completely in English yet...could you give me something to work with? Like an example of Real World information? Cause right now I get the feeling "real world information" is code for "Your anime is never going to be on Wikipedia fanboys!"...--TheUltimate3 19:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah dude,real world information for works of fiction tend not to exist in any great quantity,unless they get as big as stuff like Star Wars.Lastbetrayal 19:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If "plot summary" is the problem, then just keep things just relating to that character and his personality/relationships with other characters/abilities. And yeah, the "real world" thing is BS. You'd have to delete at least half the articles on Wikipedia to enforce that. The Splendiferous Gegiford 20:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Yeah thats the problem. There most likely isn't enough Real World Info, and yes most of wikipedia should be deleted on the same grounds. However its not, this was, so like I said we have to pick up the pieces somehow.--TheUltimate3 20:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Leave the admins alone they're just doing their job. I just fixed Itachi's page so that the merge is trying to go here. Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

konan/unnamed face
Since it isn't on the spread, can we put a picture of her face? I don't think it will violate any policy since the leader's face is on the page. -ScotchMB 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would probably attract less contraversy if we could ind one image with both of their faces -- JayStream12 23:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we edit one single pic that has all their faces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.184.207 (talk) 01:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Changes to the profile of Tobi and the Dispute of Identity
This is a continuance of a previous dispute found in other reference discussions. I understand completely about the possibility of Tobi being Madara. And I'll admit, after thinking it over, it might be true. But somehow, I can also argue that it may not be the case.

ARGUMENT ONE: Yes, Madara is the basis of all of the Uchiha Clan, at least so says the Nine-Tailed Fox Demon in his dialog with Sasuke in one chapter. In fact, Madara could be another Hidan or Kakuzu. An immortal that has lived a very long time. It could be possible, drawing from other arguments concerning the Valley of the End, that Madara is actually the opposing statue to the statue of the First Hokage.

ARGUMENT TWO: Then the second argument could be that Tobi was only referring to Madara's power, and not himself as Madara. Much like how the Kyubi (Nine-Tailed Fox Demon) was making a comparison between Sasuke's power and Madara's power (in context of chakra).

The fact is that the wording found in one chapter of the Naruto manga is too far vague to make a definitive assessment that Tobi is Uchiha Madara. The interpretation could be said that Tobi is refering to the "power" of Uchiha Madara, and not himself as Uchiha Madara. And even whoever much some people may disagree and demand that Tobi is Uchiha Madara. It is rather imprudent to have it written into this wiki as fact, without definitive proof other than through a single minor panel and a single line. I wish to change the statement to where it says something like "Tobi may have referred to himself as Uchiha Madara or was referring to the power of Uchiha Madara in front of Pein and Kadon." I believe this will be a more even handed and fair assessment of the context of the translated Japanese until more proof is given to either case or Tobi's character is further elaborated.

I made the change for one sentence to say this: "After Deidara's death, Tobi is revealed giving Pein orders, and he may have referred to himself as Madara Uchiha or was referring to the very power of said person." So that way, both theories (since that's all they are) are heard in equal measure and no one is left out. Remember, we're making assumptions on the basis of a single drawn cartoon panel with a single line. Not enough material to use as evidence that Tobi is or is not Madara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psypho (talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 August 2007


 * Clearsthroat* ARGUEMENT ONE: The Fox only said Madara had sinister chakra. I didn't see anything about being the basis of the Uchiha clan.
 * Could you tell me what chapter where Uchiha Sasuke and Kyubi have their Dialog inside of Naruto's head? Psypho 22:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ARGUEMENT TWO: But Tobi actually said he was Madara though. Its a pity we lost the best anti-thesis arguement we had left but he basically said "I'm Madara Uchiha, fear my l33t power!".--TheUltimate3 21:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not a theory. Tobi calls himself Uchiha Madara. Every professional/experienced translator and native Japanese speaker says this. I can't believe this is still going on. The Splendiferous Gegiford 21:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Id on't know Japanese, so I have no idea, but is it possible that Madara is some kind of title? 88.110.146.241 21:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What translator's? Honestly, I have not met these translators, and even among these same translators, there is disagreement. But until otherwise proven without a shadow of a doubt, it's my own personal opinion that Tobi could not be Uchiha Madara. At least as far as an opinion goes.  Plus, how does the Nine-Tail Fox Demon even know about Madara - unless they've actually met. Tobi is too far young (supposedly) to have even met the Kyubi.  So how does that even add up?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psypho (talk Psypho 22:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. I've got a question: Is Madara a boy's or girl's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 21:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you've never met them how do you know there's disagreement between them? Even the one who translated the line as "My power, Uchiha Madara's power" says it's obvious he referring to himself. English and Japanese are two very different languages so sometimes it's hard to translate accurately between the two and still have it sound good. The Splendiferous Gegiford 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But there is such a thing as ambiguity in any language. What the statement was "The Sharingan's power... My power... Uchiha Madara's power..."  The statement is in of itself too vague.  It could almost mean anything from him being Uchiha Madara (in referring to himself in the third person) to likening his power to the level of Uchiha Madara's once their objectives are met.  As far as I'm concerned, I think the interpretation of perhaps a line of dialog is being read too far into it.  My position is to introduce two extreme ideas, and let the reader decide for him or her self.  Also, falling back to what I've asked a couple of comment s above.  How the heck does Kyubi even know of Uchiha Madara, if the Kyubi has been trapped inside of Naruto this whole time?  Even the speculation that Tobi is young can be argued, only because the Kyubi seemed to have met Uchiha Madara from a long time ago.  At least, that was my impression. --Psypho 05:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we bring up the YES TOBI IS UCHIHA MADARA. DEAL WITH IT button up again. It sends a clear message out. Also, if we are wrong we can change it in the future. It's best to avoid any conflicts or an edit war. That will just give the admins an excuse to delete this page. =) -ScotchMB 00:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We really shouldn't cause it only makes people want to do it more. If I read that, and I disagree, I think "son of a..." and then I put it in, if it's not there I think "ehh, there loss." It is acually very rude and kind of like the roman catholic church was a long time ago. They made sure everyone believed what they did and didn't allow the knowledge of anthing conflicting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.184.207 (talk) 01:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Archives
In case anybody cares, Talk:List of Akatsuki members/Archive 1 and Talk:List of Akatsuki members/Archive 2 have not been deleted (yet). If you'd like to refer to one off the 30 or so earlier TOBI NO IS MADARA discussions, you can still do so. ~SnapperTo 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Tobi from the anime Naruto
I have nominated this page for deletion. Please comment on whether to merge or to delete. Thank you. -ScotchMB 00:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats not even worth the time to deal with. He's already here, and like the Forth hasn't done crap for an article.--TheUltimate3 00:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Why?--Blue-Eyes White Dragon 23:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Why? All he did was come in, fail in catching the Three-Tails, follow Deidara, not get blown up, reveal himself to be Madara and then jump out of sight. In a nutshell, thats all he did. That article now using the is pretty much all "Tobi may be Obito, Tobi may be Madara, Tobi may be a sponge" It speaks of theories that are based on nothing (The Fox merely said he met Madara, never said when. So why exactly does that make him Immortal?)--TheUltimate3 01:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh sorry I thought you meant the Akatsuki page sorry, yes that page needs some work or needs to be deleted--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 12:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Too keep it short, unless that page can get higher than 10,000 bytes, there is NO WAY that it will survive. Let's just see how this goes, however. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a good idea--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 05:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You also think that Tobi might be Obito? It makes sense, right? If you read Kakashi Gaiden, Obito is kind of a goofball, and he gave Kakshi his left sharingan, leaving his right one. You assume that his right one got crushed, but what if it didn't? I hope he is Obito. Anyway, maybe Obito had an "alter ego" or something, he was also Madara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.178.136 (talk) 05:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Image Deletion
I see why the image of Kisame and Itachi being used to show the Akatsuki uniform but why was it necessary to delete the image of Pein as he is not depicted in the group shot? -- JayStream12 04:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * He is there, albeit way in the background.  Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 04:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright I did not word that propperly he is not depicted in a way that you can see how he looks. -- JayStream12 14:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think Pein and Konan should have seperate photos depicting what their faces look like, as the profile at the top does not convey that at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.209.200 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that. Chances are great that they would be removed because it makes policy cry.--TheUltimate3 15:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless Pein's face is actually shown (and it isn't), then the aurgument "is shown in spread" is no more effective as a google search to check notability. Unless you can provide an actual reason, besides the "least number possible" one Durin has brought here, I'll add the image back. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Image
In the image where the members are standing in their ring positions on the two hands, does anyone care to change the "Unnamed" member's name? 71.89.8.194 10:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd do it if i know the font and lettering of the one already there but i think only Snapper2, Someguy0830, and Greg can do that. It should be changed soon though seeing as how we know the name of all the membersof Akatsuki now. Deblow 16:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperN (talk • contribs)

Pein Image
Pein's face wasn't shown in the spread, and there's almost no way the average reader would be able to understand all that, let alone come up with any clue on what his face looks like at all. I suggest a picture of him be added. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it was, several times but was removed for the obvious reason. The only hope we have (as of now) is wait and pray for a new spread image that has his face (though we probably can't use it seeing as how it would only have the survivng members, Tobi, Kisame, Itachi, Konan(Thats her name right?) and Pein.--TheUltimate3 19:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think our only chance is to hope those suffocating admins are fired in the near future, that way we can begin piecing this disaster back together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.209.200 (talk) 20:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, look. I just want it to be unbiased.
The idea of me putting up the page in the first place was to introduce two theories to the table. The idea "Tobi is Madara", I feel has no more real validity than the "Tobi is Obito" idea. Maybe in fact, I shouldn't have put it up as a character page, but as a controversy piece. I don't even know if something like that can be included into Wikipedia. But it's my strong belief that something needs to be a solid fact, that's proven more times by actual dialog that isn't so vague - and isn't found on a single drawn panel. Believe it or not, whether you much rather believe the Japanese native speakers or the amateur to professional translators. There's an obvious difference in opinion. I much rather include solid information on something, rather than even include it all. Which was another proposal I had. Either include both the theories, or don't include either one at all.

As for the page itself. I'll talk it over with ScotchMB for ideas and possible changes so that way it's not confused with an actual character sheet.

Maybe, in the end - it might just get deleted. But personally, I'd like to see it stay. I know a lot of you aren't happy with this. Even some of you have come down to even speaking badly of me for having done so (even though it states at the top that "be polite" - *cough* hypocrisy *cough* *cough*).

Anyways, I've said my piece. Thanks for even reading.

--Psypho 05:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's only controversial because people don't know enough on the subject. It's only controversial because of a single poorly-worded translation. This isn't a real controversy. As for "proven several times by actual dialog" I don't see a point in that. In the last chapter we saw on a single page that Pein is capable of stopping rainfall. Do we need several more instances of that before we can say "Okay, Pein can control rain"? No. We see him control the rain, therefore he can control the rain. Likewise, on a single page a few chapters ago we see Tobi refer to himself as Madara. Do we need several more instances of him calling himself Madara before we say "Okay, Tobi called himself Madara"? No. We see Tobi refer to himself as Madara, therefore Tobi referred to himself as Madara. The Splendiferous Gegiford 05:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Likewise, on a single page a few chapters ago we see Tobi refer to himself as Madara".

That's the problem. Some people won't accept that Tobi referred to himself as Madara. It doesn't matter what the translators and native Japanese speakers think, they use that one line from Hisshouburaiken as their proof ("my power...Uchiha Madara's power"). Third-person speech is common in manga/anime so that shouldn't confuse anyone. Even Hisshou stated that the man in chapter 364 is, without question, Uchiha Madara. The only argument you could make is whether that's Tobi, or someone wearing the same mask. However, I think we can take Tobi's statement at face value. The revelation would be wasted if he wasn't Madara. Wikiuser6 09:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Psypho, there was once a page on the Akatsuki leader. The reasons for deletion is almost the exact same reason why I put up your page for deletion. If tobi becomes a major recurring character, then that page could stay, although the title of the page should be tobi (naruto) -ScotchMB 12:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

To keep it short, any translation that makes it seem like Tobi isn't Madara is a mistranslation, as that phrase cannot be translated into English easily. We would have proof, but somebody had to delete the members page and all the talk page information was lost. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE drop this whole Tobi/Madara thing? Some think he isn't Madara, but Obito. Some think he is Madara. This isn't gonna get us anywhere or change Tobi's section. This is only just turning out to be a waste of time. Let's just let the manga continue, then we'll understand more about Tobi/Madara. So. Can we please change the subject? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 03:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Get Over It
Dont refer to him as Madara till he says he is Madara or who ever he is going to be next look here to see why eg. I have the power of wikipedia...holy shit im wikipedia--Mhart54com 10:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean until he says he's Madara AGAIN? Regardless, he said he was Madara once so Madara he is. Controversy be damned.--TheUltimate3 10:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * you be damned, no he didn't say he was Madara. Im right and your wrong, deal with it--Mhart54com 11:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You show me logic that is superior to this, and then I will consider thinking you are in denial.--TheUltimate3 11:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

dont be a egg, he says "I have the True power of the sharingan, among this the power of Uchiha Madara"--Mhart54com 11:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No personal attacks. I have provided logic that has yet to be challanged by anyone. All you have done so far was say I was wrong.--TheUltimate3 11:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * its not a personal attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Don%27t_be_a_Dick did you not read "I have the True power of the sharingan, among this the power of Uchiha Madara". and you didn't spell challanged right


 * What do you know, they got a WP for everything now. And no I can't spell. Not one of my strengths. Regardless I have read many translations and the one that holds the most water so far was the qoute from the Great Kawa.--TheUltimate3 11:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I would like to point out that the poster above TheUltimate spelt "challenged" wrong also, and has poor punctuation and grammar. Onto the issue at hand, Tobi did refer to himself as Madara. It's been proven time and again by people who speak Japanese natively, which makes all of you English-speaking people SOL with excuses. So sorry if that chaps your ass but it's the truth. Get over it and accept your defeat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.209.200 (talk) 11:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

sign your posts with four ~ yea they have a WP for just about everything--Mhart54com 11:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really the point but all right. 214.13.209.200 11:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Mhart54com, but the particular phrase Tobi uses cannot be translated into English and hold its original meaning. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Akatsuki members back up
right here--Mhart54com 12:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Now if we could only slip a few pictures in there, everything would be copesthetic. Speak Qwerty 12:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I working on it--Mhart54com 12:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * $%#@%#$%#%#@$%#@$%^#$&%^&#$$!$#% dam they took it down--Mhart54com 12:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

wtf?! Why won't they allow members pics? --Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.149.49.207 (talk) 23:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan & Naruto = cousins?
Is it true as the artical says or is it vandalism?Jacce 16:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * vandalism. Jazz Band Member 18:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:V
This article needs independent reliable sources to back up its claims. We cannot just lay out the claims given to us by the company that makes it and call that an encyclopedic article. This article in its present state is basically unreferenced. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('Go ')) 16:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * ....Yeah, as soon as you find a source of information other than the actual series, I'll listen. Seriously, where else shall you find this information? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

From WP:V, "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it". So unless this can be done, this article needs to go. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('Go ')) 18:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So in other words we got to find some college professor talk about the real world parallels of the Akatsuki and the Nazis to save the article. Yeah they are gunning for this show.--TheUltimate3 18:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah. "Should not"... not "cannot possibly in any way". That would lead me to believe that there can be exceptions. Jazz Band Member 18:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This is so fucking stupid that its not even funny. Look. Yes, there are a couple data books, but for the most part, all the information is directly from the actual chapters. So unless you want us to delete almost everything on the naruto pages (like we haven't gotten close with these stupid merg orgies--dont get me started on that) then shut up and grow up!--Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.149.49.207 (talk) 23:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Series canon is a third party source for plot information. The article is perfectly verified. What you mean to say is that it lacks out-of-universe info. --tjstrf talk 23:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi is Madara, deal with it
To quote from the members page, he is Madara, and deal with it.

A) He already said he is Madara. Any translation that makes you think differently, such as him having Madara's power, is a mistranslation. The particular phrase Tobi/Madara used is cannot be translated and hold its original meaning. To prove it, Zabuza used the phrase with his own name when he was introduced, and the official VIZ translation goes "I am Zabuza Momochi, The Demon, of the Ninjas Who Hide in the Mist!".

B) Anything about how he only has Madara's power is unconfired at this point, and is mere fan theory and counts under the crystal ball rule (don't know direct link yet).

C) Please see here.

That's all. He's Madara and deal with it. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but Tobi never say's he is Madara, so he might not be. What he says is "The sharingan's true power... my power... Uchiha Madara's power..." So he could be saying that he has Uchiha Madara's power, but he's not nessessarily saying that he is Madara. It's still in definite.--An unnamed fan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.192.86 (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Until someone comes with logic good enough to challange the Great Kawas statement, it stays. Thank you.--TheUltimate3 20:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

For me, I'll just wait for Kishimoto-sensei :) --Calvin Limuel (林德耀) 14:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Pein or Pain
I just want to know, was it decided that we call him Pain or Pein? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

His name is Pein, with an E. Also, who changed Konan's profile to saying (very poorly, I might add) that she can use Hyoton? Please remove that nonsense. Speak Qwerty 17:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That was just some random vandalism I guess. Anyway, his name isn't confirmed either way, but Pein is the most widely-used name so that's what we use until we get something official. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * it can be pein, pain, and payne so many ways —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.210.203 (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In Japanese words, "ei" is pronounced like "ai", or "ay". Jazz Band Member 18:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

We haven't hear any English Translation declaration from Kishimoto-sensei yet, so just use the original roomaji, "Pein".

Pein's Picture
First of all, I would like to say thank you, that was a desperately needed image and, seeing as how it was cut right out of the manga, it shouldn't break the heart of any admin. Now, can we get a similar one for Konan? In fact, why not the one that came from the same panel as Pein's image? Speak Qwerty 17:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Beautiful. Thank you to whomever added that image of Konan. The article finally looks reasonable. Speak Qwerty 17:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * She doesn't need a pic. She can be described perfectly, unlike Pein. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, she does need a pic. The rest of Akatsuki gets one and all Konan gets is a shady image of the back of her head. Why undermine and trivialize such an important character? Speak Qwerty 17:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sasori doesn't have one either, for your information. We have to keep as little images as possible, and both Sasori and Konan can be described in words, Pein has too many details for that. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope this "fair use" nonsense dies a horrible death very soon. Speak Qwerty 17:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It will if people would stop hopping on it. Enough with the re-adding of images for a while, I've got them all saved on my laptop anyway. In a few months when this dies down, there is a slight chance of the policy being reworked and they could be put back. But for now we keep digging ourselves in a deeper hole.--TheUltimate3 18:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

That current picture of him isn't nearly as good as the previous one. You can barely see his face due to how small and messy the picture is. The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Too much references
30% of the article is made of references! Do we really need to mention every single page something was taken? - Access Timeco 17:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you don't want some nitwit to come and say "not enough references = no article", yes. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Those are practically all primary sources and add nothing to the article references. As Until(1==2) said above, this article is basically unreferenced. That's why the banner sits on the main page.  The idea is that someone looks for reliable secondary references for the information in the article.  Without these, the article does not pass WP:V.  To quote, "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.".  At the moment, if someone was to nominate this article for deletion (and no, I'm not going to), it should in theory be deleted. So I suggest that instead of squabbling about trivial in-universe facts, the large number of editors of this article concentrate their efforts on turning it into one that is Wikipedia-worthy.  E LIMINATOR  JR  18:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I have an added this: http://leafninja.com/akatsuki.php as it (as far as I can get) the only site with up to date Akatsuki info. Would this be a reliable source?--TheUltimate3 18:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes - good start. I am sure that with the popularity of Naruto, there must be dozens of sources out there.  If you can link the text to sources like that, you've got the makings of a decent article.   E LIMINATOR  JR  18:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So now's the task to link text to the website I added. Shouldn't be to difficult.--TheUltimate3 18:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That is just a fansite, so referencing it is no different than referencing the actual source (and I doubt that the site is even reliable). You need to get real world information to make this matter. TTN 19:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes - unfortunately it is, looking again. But you get the idea.  E LIMINATOR  JR  19:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So we're right back where we started. Damnit...--TheUltimate3 19:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You could use rp to drastically reduce the references section. Kariteh 20:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as too much refrences. Without them its is just like the other user just said earlier. Also, why not simply just directly reference the chapters? You can't get more accurate than that. Beyond a few data books, their aren't any other fully reliable sorces.--Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.149.49.207 (talk) 23:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there a way to put the references in a box like the Contents box, which you can open up should you want to read or close should you want to ignore? That would work. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Semi Protect?
I think the Akatsuki page should be Semi Protected, due to all the vandalism on the page, what do you think?--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 23:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Already requested it earlier today here. The Splendiferous Gegiford 23:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good work :)--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 23:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Zetsu's jutsu?
Where was it stated that Zetsu has a jutsu called "Leech All Creation: Attack Prevention Technique (蛭万象・防火の術, Hiru Banshō: Bōka no Jutsu)"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odin89 (talk • contribs) 08:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't, but the jutsu Zetsu uses to merge with the ground and trees is virtually the same technique Orochimaru uses at the beginning of the series, and that was confirmed as Leech All Creation: Attack Prevention Technique. I guess they just assumed it was the same because of how similiar they look. Speak Qwerty 10:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Considering the fact we know extremely little about Zetsu's abilities so far and that at this point it's purely speculation; should that part not be taken out of the article for the time being? GomuumoG 11:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, it probably should be, although you might want to go through the upper tier of editors or else it'll just keep coming back. Speak Qwerty 13:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)