Talk:Alâeddin Mosque

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Untitled
I have changed the English but not the substance. Good work, Cretanforever. Can we add a picture of the royal mausoleum? Aramgar 11:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

English names for the Sultans of Rum
Cretanforever, why are you changing the names of the Seljuq Sultans of Rum? We are writing the English articles on these rulers, and the names I have given them are those current in English language academic literature. I am highly sympathetic to your point of view and thought the example you chose, “Charlie Magnus,” both apt and amusing. The fact still remains that these are Turkish names and not those most familiar to readers of English.

Moreover, the honorific laqabs for all these rulers ought to be dropped. Alaeddin Keykubad I and Alaeddin Keykubad II ought to read simply Kayqubad I and Kayqubad II.

I look forward to a cooperative relationship. Aramgar 23:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:UE and stop moving it. --Karent82 19:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Splendid! The best idea would be go in Alaeddin Mosque (Konya, Turkey) since most names are represented in the list there, and then see what you are able to do. I left a spelling check template for the purpose. Cretanforever 04:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I have long wondered where Kaykhusraw II was laid to rest. I thought that I remembered he was there among his kin at the Alaeddin Camii but was not sure. His presence would seem to indicate that he did not die in Antalya, as the present article on the sultan suggests.


 * I appreciate the spelling template provided at Alaeddin Camii, but I confess that I know these spellings, in standard modern Turkish, of the names of the Seljuq Sultans of Rum. We are writing here biographies, where none existed before, on the Seljuqs of Rum. We are charged to write them in English, with spellings appropriate to contemporary English language scholarship. Please see the Wikipedia policy (see WP:UE).


 * I am more interested in providing biographical details. I am not that interested in wasting hours on orthography. If you should like to provide biographical details, with substantive citations, I would appreciate that.


 * The following transliterations appear in contemporary English language scholarship: Kaykhusraw, Kayka’us/Kaykaus, and Kayqubad. Aramgar 08:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Easy Jet! Are you around? I have a set of questions on the names of Seljuk sultans. Cretanforever 10:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No sho w! I am shifting the names bacq to how they were. Cretanforever 05:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Cretanforever, we have discussed the names used in contemporary English language scholarship. Please leave the names as they are and review WP:UE. I would prefer to work with you. Aramgar 05:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Major Revision (although the mummified corpses are within reach)
Cretanforever: Your major revision of Alaeddin Mosque (Konya, Turkey) on 5 September labeled “developped” has eliminated much factual information. The problem seems to stem from a perceived conflict between a single line from a paper by Machiel Kiel and assertions in Scott Redford’s ”The Alaeddin Mosque Reconsidered.” In fact, there is no contradiction between Kiel and Redford. I would respectfully suggest that you find a way to access and read the entire article by Redford: it is the most comprehensive work to date on the history of this complex building. The article by Machiel Kiel is of little relevance.

Your revision also includes much information not strictly relevant to Alaeddin Mosque (Konya, Turkey): the mention of the St Amphilochius and the etymology of its Turkish name is an example. And finally the names of the sultans of Rum were changed once again without so much as a word of explanation on the Talk page.

If I must repeat myself I will: You Cretanforever and I Aramgar have a great deal in common. I would prefer to work with you as a colleague. I get the feeling that you may believe that I am some sort of enemy. I assure you that I am not. Aramgar 18:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Cretanforever: Regarding the names of the sultans, an English-language article ought to use the spelling standards commonly accepted in English scholarly literature. Please review WP:UE.  In addition, some of the text you provided  -- especially that concerning the Eflatun Mescidi -- was almost identical to that contained in the cited works; it needs a little more rewriting to avoid the appearance of plagiarism. Kafka Liz 10:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As requested, an explanation of my revisions yesterday: most of the edits related to spelling, grammar and style. I removed information about the discovery of carpets in the mosque because upon checking the citation, it seemed more relevant to an article on Anatolian weaving or on Konya proper than to an article specifically about the mosque.  The phrasing also seemed far closer to that of the cited article than it ought have been.  The remark about touching mummified corpses simply seemed peculiar.  It has been pointed out that something different was meant; I will revise it back unless beaten to it. Kafka Liz 10:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the page to the version before Cretanforever’s major revision. The reasons for this follow: 1) concerns about plagiarism in at least two places, 2) much sourced material was deleted without explanation, 3) the spelling of the sultans’ names were changed without explanation, 4) irrelevant material was added, 5) the English is not up to encyclopaedia standards.

Several of Cretanforever’s contributions ought to be retained: he made mention of the medieval carpet fragments found within the mosque. I believe this is appropriate, though Kafka Liz disagrees. The mummies ought to be left also. The bulleting and “See also” links are fine. Aramgar 16:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Major Revision (although the mummified corpses are within reach) Revisited
Once again Cretanforever has replaced this page with an admixture of plagiarism, solecism, and irrelevant material. Rather than adding new material, he simply restored his edit of 5 September 2007 entitled “developped”. He offered no explanation for his changes in September. This time he has offered only the disingenuous “image” in the Edit Summary box. I have kept the image as a useful addition but reverted the rest. Aramgar 19:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Kaykhusraw or Keyhüsrev
Arkadaṣım: For several months now, there has been some debate as to which spelling of the sultan’s name is the most appropriate title for the articles Kaykhusraw I, Kaykhusraw II, and Kaykhusraw III in English Wikipedia. The spelling current in English language academic literature is “Kaykhusraw.” You may prefer the Turkish spelling “Keyhüsrev,” which is understandable given the sultan’s role in Anatolian history and Turkish civilization. Still, “Kaykhusraw” is the form most familiar to readers of English, and Wikipedia Naming Conventions suggest that we use this form. Below is a list of credible English language sources. All use the spelling “Kaykhusraw.” The first two books in the list are the essential English language references for the history of the Seljuks of Rum.
 * ”Kaykhusraw” Speros Vryonis, The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh through the Fifteenth Century (University of California Press, 1971), p. 134.
 * ”Kaykhusraw” Claude Cahen, Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A General Survey of the Material and Spiritual Culture and History, c. 1071-1330 (Taplinger Publishing, 1968), p. 111.
 * ”Kaykhusraw” Stephen Album, Checklist of Islamic Coins, 2nd edition (1998), p. 62.
 * ”Kaykhusraw” The Glory of Byzantium: Art and Culture of the Middle Byzantine Era, A.D. 843-1261, edited by Helen C. Evans and William D Wixom (New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1997), p. 416.
 * ”Kaykhusraw” Jonathan Phillips, The Fourth Crusade (Viking, 2004), p. 191.
 * “Kay-khusraw” The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium (Oxford University Press, 1991), vol. 2, p. 1117.

The titles of these articles must remain Kaykhusraw I, Kaykhusraw II, and Kaykhusraw III. I look forward to working with you in the future. I believe we have a great deal in common. Yours, Aramgar 03:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Move Request

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move the page to Alaeddin Mosque, per the discussion below. The disambiguation page is now at Alaeddin Mosque (diambiguation), and I have brought it in line with WP:MOS-DAB per the page move here. Dekimasu よ! 15:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC) Of the several mosques named Alaeddin Mosque, this one is by far the most important in terms of architecture, history and general interest. I suggest transforming the current Alaeddin Mosque header I created into a disambiguation page to include this one, the others by the same name in Turkey and the two homonymous edifices outside Turkey (one in Malaysia, and the other a small mosque adjacent to a mansion of the same name -Alatini-) which could all be covered by way of this article. Cretanforever 16:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure I understand: The page Alaeddin Mosque is already a disambiguation page. Are you proposing to remove the “(Konya, Turkey)” from the title of this page? Would you then place something like “For other uses, see Alaeddin Mosque (disambiguation)” at the top? Can you clarify further what you propose to do? Aramgar 17:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Please clarify. Aramgar 12:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It would make sense, where there are multiple uses but one primary use, to put the primary use at Alaeddin Mosque and the others at Alaeddin Mosque (disambiguation). In this case, however, there are only two articles linked from the disambiguation page, so we don't really need the dab page at all; disambiguation could be covered by a hatnote with this article at Alaeddin Mosque. On the other hand, if the two redlinks at the disambiguation page are likely to turn into articles, then it would make sense to move that page to Alaeddin Mosque (disambiguation) after all.  Either way, we'd want to move this article to Alaeddin Mosque, assuming it really is the clear primary topic for that name. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Done GT! Regards.Cretanforever 14:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The picture showing the model
The actual building seems to be modelled mostly correctly, but there is no cliff-face behind the structure like that in the picture. The mosque actually sits on the top of Konya's citadel hill. Maybe someone should edit the image to erase these cliffs. Meowy 14:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the türbe on the right, the so called Adsız Türbe, was never finished, in contrast to what the model shows. Check out the recent photograph by Dick Osseman in which the modern roof is clearly visible: here. I would support, however, keeping the picture of the model: it provides an overview of this complex building superior to that of any photograph I have yet found. Aramgar (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * both points reflected now. Johnbod (talk) 21:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

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