Talk:Al-Ahbash/Archive 1

New version
New version created following the inconclusive Votes for deletion/Habashies. While no consensus emerged over specific action, there was agreement that a total rewrite was needed. So here goes... Tearlach 12:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Revert 3rd Sep 2005
I reverted the edits by on grounds of non-neutrality (they removed links to an academic account of the topic and to a site critical of Al-Ahbash) and copyvio (text copied straight from the Shaykh ^Abdullah al-Harariyy page at aicp.org). Tearlach 13:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Wiki links

 * when you edit, please leave the Wikipedia links intact. Otherwise, it just makes work for other editors who have to wikify the whole article again. Tearlach 12:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

McKhan's is a wahhabi biased view
The group named al-ahbash are a sunni group from lebanon. The books written by sheikh abdullah al-habashi from (al-habashah) are authorised and approved by the azhar of egypt, which is the biggest islamic authority in the world. The books of sheikh al-habashi are taught in kulliyat al-shari`ah (shariah college). The wahhabis of saudi arabia who carried out 9/11 employ people to sit on the internet and lauch hate campaigns against people who expose their fallacies and their non-sunni views. Enough said, the whole Muslim world is talking against their deviancy not just the ahbash sunni group of lebanon. I have reverted to muslimunity's post which is a much more succint and neutral view.


 * If you are determined to edit, please edit constructively. Your last edits destroyed all the internal and external links to other articles, making work for other editors who have to put them all back in. This is generally viewed as vandalism. Nor are they neutral - for a start, they removed external links, one to a site critical of Al-Ahbash, another to a properly-cited research paper from an academic journal. The whole text also lacks sources. I've therefore reverted it, put up a neutrality dispute tag, and moved the material here for discussion of how to make it neutral. Tearlach 15:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Disputed version
''Disputed version follows - can we attempt to make this NPOV? The whole section also needs wikifying, as I've said above.''

Al-Ahbash is a Sunni Islamic movement and non-political group initiated in Lebanon in the early 80s; alternative names are: the Ahbash, Habashis, al Habashiyyin, and Jam'iyyat al- Mashari' al-Khayriyya al-Islamiyya (in English, Association of Islamic Charitable Projects - AICP).


 * ''Is non-political accurate? - Al-Ahbash has put up candidates for the Lebanese parliament.


 * It very hard to say any organization is non-political Hackwrench 02:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The group follows the Sunni (Shafi`i) teachings through the guidance of Sheikh `Abdullah ibn Muhammad ibn Yusuf al-Harari al-Shaybi al-`Abdari, also known as al-Habashi ("the Ethiopian"). It follows Sunni theology with Sufism. It advocates co-existence with non-Muslims, and an opposition to political activism and violence (its slogan is "the resounding voice of moderation").


 * OK.

At its core the revivalist movement initiated by the Ethiopian (Habashi) Sheikh who migrated from Ethiopia (al-Habashah) to Damascus then Beirut, carries a traditional outlook and practice of Sunni Islam.

It is highly controversial within some extremists circles for its religious stance against Wahhabism, and its conciliatory and diplomatic position with governments (notably Syria and Western governments).


 * POV description of critics as extremists, and potentially derogatory use of term Wahhabism?


 * I would say it should be "some circles" and then a list can be made of circles that Al-Ahbash view as extremist. Another list can be made of circles that view Al-Ahbash as extemists. Hackwrench 02:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The movement's objectives carry a strong opposition to the politically oriented movements that it sees as heretics, such as the group named al-jama`a al-islamiyya, or the wahhabi movement or hizbut-tahrir, whose calls have been rendered extremist and non-Islamic through the Sheikh's interpretation and academic methodology.


 * POV - "whose calls have been rendered extremist and non-Islamic" is an opinion.


 * One would gather that it might carry a stron opposition to at least one non-politically motivated movement as well. Ideally Al-Ahbash's case for what is political and what is heretical as well as a general outline of the Sheikh's interpretantion and academic methodology should be presented. In fact, the aforementioned outline should be at the top of the page. Hackwrench 02:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Initially in the 80s, it was an older generation that supported the movement's path. This generation of people used their established contacts (some Syrian) which were heavily relied upon during the complex Lebanese civil war period for the protection of the association that housed the movement's spiritual guide (jam`iyat al-mashari` est. 1930).

In the current climate (post 9/11), we are witnessing the weakening of the 'older generation' effects on the general movement's path and especially its political path. A new generation of younger men in their 30s (some of whom are highly educated at western universities) are taking the lead at the movement. This generation professes a strong Islamic outlook enshrined in non-rebellious Sufi practices and a heavy emphasis on education and awareness as a contemporary alternative for regional stability.

The leadership of the movement by this new generation who has been personally raised by the spiritual guide himself (Sheikh Abdullah al-Habashi), is seen by some as a pure expression of the Sheikh's intent and a reforming period for the Levant.


 * Cite sources for all this.

Sheikh al-Harari (al-Habashi)

Sheikh al-Harari who is an orator of transmitted Prophetic traditions (Hadiths) has played a vital role in helping the Sunni community of Lebanon mold its Islamic Sunni identity post the Second World War in the Levant (East Mediterranean).


 * Cite sources for this claim

Although Sheikh al-Harari is a Shafi`i scholar, he promotes all four Sunni schools of thought in practice namely that of Imam Shafi`i, Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad and Imam abu-Hanifah. Theologically in matters of creed, the Sheikh promotes the Sunni schools of Imam al-Ash`ari and Imam al-Maturidi.

Al-Ahbash specialise in the dissemination of Islamic knowledge based on a traditional methodology of classical Muslim scholars.

Cite sources.

They promote their teachings internationally through a major Web presence and regional offices, notably in the United States, Australia and Germany.


 * OK. Tearlach 15:16, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Clarification on 'non-political'
'''Is non-political accurate? - Al-Ahbash has put up candidates for the Lebanese parliament.'''

True they have done that, but my understanding is that there is a difference between a political party constituted to run for parliaments and between a religious movement which might have individuals who are politically active and who might receive the support of the movement. The group as it states about itself focuses on the dissimenation of Islamic Sunni knowledge through education and other peaceful and non-violent means of interaction in communities.

The reason why wahhabism was stated to be extremist, is that at its heart is a call for the use of arms and violence in the pursuit of domination and control. 9/11 was carried out by young men affected by the wahhabi ideology. This is not an opinion but rather a fact.

The other reason why Wahhabism is extremist is that Muslim scholars in the last two decades have written extensively against their deviation away from true Islamic thought. I believe a research was conducted by Dr Hersi Mohammed from Malaysia to find out the extent to which the wahhabi ideology was rejected throughout the Muslim world, and the result of his findings were over 100 books written by major Islamic scholars in the last 2 centuries from Rabat to Istanbul, Cairo, Mecca, Dhaka and Jakarta. This fact makes the wahhabis' claim to be a mainstream ideology in the Muslim world ludicrous and biased.


 * I agree non-political is obviously not accurate. I think it comes from the fact that al-ahbash are more related to sufi traditions and sufi are generally viewed in the west as moderate, therefore non-political religous groups which is not always correct.--equitor 10:29, September 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree: there's a tendency in the West to reserve "political" as meaning "militantly political". Perhaps the description could be clarified in relation to its different roles inside Lebanon (where it is involved in politics) and more generally worldwide (where the published stance is education about Islam). Tearlach 10:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Protection
Protection was requested for this page, because of the edit dispute. It is, of course, protected on The Wrong Version, and if I messed up and protected it on the right version, please tell me! By the way, links are good. -- Phroziac (talk) 04:03, September 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * I requested the protection to stop the edits from anonymous and newly-created accounts: partly because of the bias, partly because the style of the edits has been vandalistic in destroying internal and external links. Note that it doesn't mean the article can't be changed or expanded. It just means everyone must agree on a change before it's made. Tearlach 10:58, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

McKhan is a wahhabi that spreads racist slurs and lies
Ahbash are a sunni group from lebanon spreading the goodness of the Islamic faith throughout the western world with peaceful means, while warning against the deviance of the anti-sunni wahhabi sect which committed 9/11 and which massacred sunni Muslims in the city of Prophet Muhammad (Medina) at the turn of the last century [reported by Mufti of Mecca Ahmad Zaini Dahlan].

McKhan you are a racist bigot. Stop your hate filled campaign. I'm told you work for a riyad based center to sit on the internet and spread your stupid and illogical propaganda. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Muslimunity (talk &bull; contribs) 03:12, September 7, 2005.


 * Please read WP:NPA. -- Phroziac (talk) 17:54, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Links are not neutral, they are from a known racist wahhabi website.
I recommend that the page 'al-ahbash' be permanently removed from wikipedia, because it contains biased information mostly fabricated by wahhabis. The wahhabis have been spreading racist rumors for years now against any powerful Sunni group that has a strong world following and that goes against their corrupt biased views.


 * Read NPOV. I chose those links because they represent a spread of views: one well-referenced and (as far as I can tell neutral) academic article; one from the official AICP site, which is completely uncritical of Al-Ahbash; and one fairly representative of what its critics say about it. Tearlach 02:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Mediation cabal
I have referred you guys to the mediation cabal. Please go through with mediation, and perhaps your conflicts can be solved, and we could get some editing done here. :) -- Phroziac (talk) 00:56, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

20% of the Sunni vote in Beirut is BIG!
Given the sympathy vote that Hariri's son Saad received, for AICP to have received 20% of the Sunni vote in Beirut (an-Nahar newspaper 31/05/2005) entails that AICP is in deed BIG. The Wahhabis who believe that voting is kufur (blasphemy) do not even contribute to voting. In Beirut they are clandestine and they carry out commando style operations from Ain el-Helwe Palestian refugee camp where the Lebanese police force does not have access.

The 5 Wahhabis who killed Sheikh Nizar al-Halabi the leader of AICP in 1995 believed that AICP was a BIG sunni group that undermined the very existence of the violent Wahhabi methodology in Lebanese society. For that reason they cowardly killed him outside his house with his 10 year old son by his side.

The very fact that the Wahhabi McKhan is pushing his warped Riyad based theories on Al-Ahbash page indicates to any person with an average brain capacity that he fears them, and he thinks they are a BIG and powerful group.

The operations of AICP are open and transparent, and not everything that any individual does constitutes official AICP operation. Let's leave this page for the official stuff, and drop all hearsay and Saudi fantasies. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Muslimunity (talk &bull; contribs).

Calls to remove the biased pages
It is recommended that this page should be removed, because it has become the latest place for the Wahhabis' racist attacks on AICP/Ahbash. The Wahhabis who killed the leader of AICP in 1995, were executed by the Lebanese authorites. They were coward murderers. The civilised and moderate AICP never retaliated with indiscrimate fire, but rather took their case to the Lebanese courts who charged the 5 Wahhabis with murder and sedition. Muslimunity 04:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity


 * No, that's not a valid reason to delete the page. -- Phroziac (talk) 03:07, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are NOT a Lebanese issue ONLY
Muslimunity has vandalized this page by removing my comments as well as Tearlach's comments. Older version of this page can be read here which was posted prior to Muslimunity's vandalism.

Indeed, Muslimunity doesn't want people to learn about the true colors of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP and following links will be curcial if added:

  "Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs" "The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah(Jurisprudence)" "Internet in a SectarianIslamic Context"



Having said that who cares how many votes Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP got in Lebanese Elections?

It is NOT about the votes or Lebanese elections or about one country...

It is about the tactics of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP which they use ALL OVER THE WORLD to hide their true colors by hiding behind mainstream Sunni muslims like myself.

Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

 http://www.alsunna.org/ http://mouhammad.org/ http://asha3ira.com/ http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid.

I am NOT a Wahabi nor I am a Salafi. I am just a Sunni Muslim who knows the background of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP very well.

However, it is quite obvious that Muslimunity is attacking Wahabis to win some sympathies.

I just want Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP to be treated the way they truly are: a stray sect / cult who hide behind mainstream Sunni Muslims

I think that is fair and not far from the truth.

This page should remain intact along-with the links and Tearlach's version serves the purpose.

McKhan
 * What are you suggesting? By the way, could you try to make these posts with one or two edits? -- Phroziac (talk) 03:27, September 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Tearlach's version serves the purpose and thefore should remain intact. McKhan

Editing
1- Not a religious sect

AICP is rather a religious association (group) within the Sunni sect. The Sheikh does not have an interpretation that mixes Sunni and Shia, the Sheikh rather states in his books that he follows the Sunni way (Shafi` in practice and Ash`ari in creed). On Sufism the Sheikh and his students follow the Qadiri and the Rifa`i Sufi orders. His book as-Sirat al-Mustaqim (The Straight Path) states the above positions.


 * I knew it that you will eventually resort to ebonics / semantics. Indeed, AICP IS the MAIN FUNDING SOURCE and "non-profit" front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies in the West and around the globe. Therefore, AICP, by default, IS a RELIGIOUS SECT / CULT who hides behind mainstream Muslims ALL OVER THE WORLD. As far as your Sheikh's "teachings" are concerned, they are nothing but an unintelligent and dubious innovations to become prominent by picking-and-chosing-as-per-neccessity from different Muslim school of thoughts. McKhan

2- Not a political party

Refer to my earlier statement above about the group not being a political party that runs for parliamentary posts. The group is apolitical and Sufi in nature. On the contrary, its quietness on political issues has at times resulted in strife for the association. Yes, the group did support Adnan Traboulsi and Taha Naji in the Lebanese elections in 2005, but it was not a Sheikh from the group that was running for the elections, rather the two were civil men that are students of Sheikh Abdullah al-Harari, and they were in the political scene even before they met the Sheikh.


 * To borrow your own words from your previous post, " for AICP to have received 20% of the Sunni vote in Beirut (an-Nahar newspaper 31/05/2005) entails that AICP is in deed BIG." AND yet you want people to believe that AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies are NOT a Political Party? McKhan

--Muslimunity 04:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity

A religious association (group).
Hence, the association cannot be called a political party, or a religious sect, rather it's a religious Sunni association (group).


 * And yet mainstream Sunni Muslims have let the cat of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP, a religious sect AND political party, out with bell attached... :) McKhan

--Muslimunity 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC) Muslimunity

al-Azhar approved AICP books
AICP is a Sunni organisation and its books are approved by al-Azhar which is a Sunni university in Cairo (Egypt).

Proof:

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/ties_book_5_main_index.htm


 * Quoting something from AICP web-site, a mouthpiece / a front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies, constitutes to dishonest prositution of the facts on the ground. Please, bring some INDEPENDENT sources or a link from Al-Azhar University by itself in due course. As I have already mentioned, it is all about exposing Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP as a stray sect / cult which seeks legitimacy by hiding behind mainstream Sunni Muslims like me. Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are NOT part of any Islamic Shura (Consultative) or Fiqh (Jurisprudence) council in North America or elswhere in the world. They did try to create one on their own in Australia but they misreably failed and got exposed at the hands of mainstream Sunni Muslims. It is NOT about Al-Azhar approved books nor it is about having a Muslim names and / or anything else. It is all about Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP being treated for what they truly are: a stray sect / cult who hides behind the mainstream Sunni Muslims. You still haven't answered any of my sixty million dollars questions. :) McKhan

Enough said.

McKhan's speaking on behalf of mainstream Sunni Muslims is laughable and ludicrous. In fact it's like Hitler speaking on behalf of those he burnt alive! McKhan your wahhabi views which is proven by your rehashed vitriol from known wahhabi websites is becoming irritating for the editors.

Stop using these pages to push across your racist religious ideology.


 * Muslimunity, I just don't want to leash boredom on the people with the graphic details of basics of Islam to highlight the difference between Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP's innovations and mainstream Sunni Muslims beliefs. For example, the followers of Al-Ahabash / Habashies / AICP pray towards the Southeast/East-Southeast contrary to mainstream Sunni Muslims who pray towards the Northeast/Northeast-North from North America. As far as your "politically correct" language is concerned, the bad news IS that it is not going to work on WikiPedia as its founder and editors are more concerned about NPOV guidlines making your accusation of me "pushing my religious ideology" quite "laughable and ludicrous." I am content with Tearlach's version. It is you who is having nightmares. Let me borrow Equitor's words, once again, "Wikipedia is not a place to push your religious agenda." P.S to the Editors: I would like to take the liberty to reiterate, the last time, that Tearlach's version fits my bill.McKhan

Muslimunity 06:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected
No discussion. --Tony Sidaway Talk 08:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Azhar/AICP Memorandum of Collaboration
In 1999 the president of the Azhar (Egypt) Dr Ahmad Omar Hashem visited AICP HQ in Beirut and met with Sheikh Adbullah al-Harari the spiritual guide of AICP. AICP and the Azhar signed a memorandum of collaboration. Also the Sheikh's books (e.g. as-sirat al-mustaqim and al-maqalat as-sunniya) have been signed and approved by Azhar scholars implying the Sheikh's high esteem amongst the Sunni community.

(reference and pictures) http://www.alsunna.org/azhar2.htm

Muslimunity 02:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP is a religious sect / cult...
Al-Azhar has lost its credibility long time ago. Having endorsement / agreements from / with Al-Azhar doesn't change the fact that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP is a religious sect / cult which hides behind the mainstream Sunnis like myself. The truth of the matter is that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP don't like ANYBODY else but themselves and the "teachings" of their own "scholar." They don't even believe in the authenticity of the content of the Quran by differentiating and classifying the content of the Quran into different categories. In a nutshell, no matter whatever you do... Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP IS a religious sect / cult. PERIOD P.S: Q: Who owns www.alsunna.org? A: Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP :))McKhan


 * You miss the point McKhan, there's no 'real Sunnis' as far as Wikipedia is concerned. There's only different POV. Now it is your right to present the POV of your obedience, but you must specifically state who's point of view you're referring to. According to ---, the Ahabashies are ... . You can and you should present different opinions (including negative one) but you must attribute this point of view to a known source, and not present it like the Absolute Truth--equitor 14:25, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Equitor:  Tearlach and I have given and quoted ample references (Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context, Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs, The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence), A Sufi response to political islamism: Al-ahbash of Lebanon, Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs .etc)  in the above lines. You are more than welcome to read this page from the beginning and go through the sources one by one. As I have already mentioned that I am posting my comments on the Wikipedia DISCUSSION / TALK page. I am NOT fabricating the facts here. I am merely stating them. Consequently, I am NOT violating Wikipedia NPOV guidelines. McKhan
 * I never said you did, if you refer to the source explicitly when adding debated claims, there shouldn't be any problem. I am only saying that all POVs must be represented as POVs and not as absolute truth.--equitor 17:03, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it comes down to one's understanding, perception, common sense and knowledge about the subject. There is no point paraphrasing the same thing over and over again. Peace. McKhan

Link
McKhan, the following link http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/habasi_history.htm shouldn't be there. It's not about the page content, it's about the quality of the langage. It's fulled of syntax/spelling mistakes, I mean is this english ''Did you believe these garbage?. Do not worry according to Imam Shafi "if someone become Sofi in the morning, at the noon he will become stupid, also, no one will stay with Sofis forty days and he will lose his mind". look Tlbes Ables P. 371)'' ?? It's OK to have links with negative POV but can you find one that is properly written?--equitor 02:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

That is an EXTERNAL but VERY CRUCIAL LINK
Equitor, That is an EXTERNAL LINK. So, it should be understood that WikiPedia is NOT responsible for the content, spelling mistakes, syntax .etc of the EXTERNAL LINKS. There are plenty of EXTERNAL LINKS. WikiPedia is simply trying to be neutral by offering both sides of the story and by simply complying with its stated NPOV guidelines. There are plenty of errors on the AICP.org as well as on many EXTERNAL LINKS listed on WikiPedia pages on different subjects. So, lets not make that EXTERNAL LINK an issue. The truth of the matter IS that each and every follwoing EXTERNAL LINK should be listed on that page:

<ul><li>Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context</li> <li>Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs</li> <li>The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)</li> <li>A Sufi response to political islamism: Al-ahbash of Lebanon</li> <li>Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs</li></ul> to bring that page into full compliance of WikiPedia NPOV guidelines and to justify the Neutrality.

Peace.

McKhan

AICP and it's Battle Against wahhabi Heresy
Al-Azhar doesn't approve heretic movements such wahhabism. AICP collaborates with al-Azhar, the oldest Sunni institution in the world. Al-Azhar is a high Sunni authority despite what McKhan the Wahhabi thinks. Wahhabism breads odious terror factions such as al-Qaeda and its global franchises.

AICP (Association of Islamic Charitable Projects) Lebanon was not built overnight, and if it did not have deep roots in Sunni ‘aqidah (doctrine) supported by the Azhar it would have vanished long time ago, and it would not have received the widespread popularity and appeal in Beirut, the base of the organisation and the place where it all began almost 30 years ago. AICP played a big role in the Lebanese civil war by promoting a sense of co-existence with the nasara others who were torn up into a bloody feud with some sections of the Muslim community. The civil Sunni attitude of tasawwuf that AICP promotes also helped ease the tension internally within the Lebanese Sunni population, by repelling the attitudes of the heretic militants who for political reasons hijacked the name of Islam and hid in refugee camps that were out of bounds for the Lebanese army.

It was from these outlawed hot-places and refugee camps that the clandestine commando style operations indiscriminately took place against the civilian population of Beirut. Accompanying these cowardist unholy operations were fake cries of Allahu Akbar in order to appeal to the Muslim population. But these cries driven by a lust for domination were all fake cries and calls for indiscriminate killing. These propagandists killed Sheikh Nizar al-Halabi the former leader and founder of AICP, because of the real threat he posed to them. Sheikh ‘Abdullah al-Harariy is not the founder of AICP but rather the religious guide. He is a Sunni scholar from Harar in al-Habashah (East Africa) whose local Beiruti students from traditional Sunni Lebanese families initiated civil and institutionalised da‘wah work in the form of an NGO (Non Governmental Organisation) called AICP and which was originally founded in 1930.

Sheikh ‘Abdullah al-Harari before residing in Beirut traveled through al-Quds and Damascus where he was received as a Shafi‘i scholar. Azhar scholars have approved the Sheikh’s books and have received them with high esteem. The sheikh’s attitude towards secular governments is unique in contemporary times, in that he scrupulously relies on the traditional Sunni fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) in order to find ways of achieving da‘wah related goals without getting into cross fire with government forces. At a time of Syrian domination upon the political scene in Lebanon during the civil war, AICP with the direction of the Sheikh found ways for dialogue and interaction even with the Syrian forces. This does not make AICP a direct supporter of the Syrian Baath party in any way shape or form. This is called diplomacy at times of strife, order to promote the bigger goal which is to protect the true Islamic teachings from those deluded deviants who resided in ‘ain el-helwe.

Australia.

However, with time this small Beirut based picture grew, and what was a Lebanese snapshot, has now become an Australian picture with ‘ain el-helwe having migrated legs and arms here and AICP having local organizations and institutions. It’s the same battle, but has now grown to a world stage. Incidentally, abu-Muhjin the leader of the commandos of ‘ain el-helwe and the assassinator of Sheikh Nizar al-Halabi has been recently found in Iraq as abu-Mus‘ab al-Zarqawi’s sidekick and second man. The ‘ain elhelwe propaganda, which was praised many times in the Sydney based magazine called nida’ul islam and which was referred to as the heartland of the Islamic revolution inside Lebanon, brought with it a dark propagandist machine of hate against AICP's local branch. It was that magazine which initiated the ugly and racist word habashi in reference to the Sheikh. The Sheikh is their top opponent, because his academic Sunni refutations exposed them in Lebanon like no other. He refuted their fake cries of Allahu Akbar by quoting Imam abu-Hanifah, Imam ash-Shafi‘i and other true Sunni scholars.

Muslimunity 06:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity

AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash are NOT batteling against the Wahabis but they seek LEGITIMACY
Muslimunity, AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies are NOT batteling the fight for MAINSTREAM Sunnis against the Wahabis. They are batteling for LEGITIMACY which they are not getting from the very Sunnis. MAINSTREAM Sunnis have DISOWNED the Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP long time ago. Here IS a Fatwa (Religious Decree) issued by Sunni Scholars against AICP / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs

Here is the research by non-Muslims / non-Wahabis about AICP:

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

Here is the RELIGIOUS analysis about Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

...and yet you have got the audacity to claim that you are NOT a Habashie BUT a mainstream Sunni.???

To borrow words from my previous post:

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash call all those mainstream Sunni Muslims - Kaafir (non-Muslim) and blasphemous .etc - who dare to challenge their scholar's INNOVATIONS. Indeed, AICP is the front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies: a STRAY SECT / CULT which hides behind the MAINSTREAM SUNNI Muslims to get legitimacy and to hide their TRUE COLORS.

Muslimunity, Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies love to intimidate. They love to pressure people to cave in and fulfil their demands. Fortunately, these tactics are NOT going to work on WikiPedia as it has stated NPOV guidelines.

AND last but not the least, what kind of "Muslim" are you? On the one hand, you use an id like Muslimunity and on the other - quite ironically - you castigate Wahabis, you launch personal attacks on me by accusing me of being a Wahabi though I have repeatedly trounced your claims by telling the truth that I am NOT a Wahabi but a mainstream Sunni.

McKhan

Fraudulent links provided by McKhan
McKhan who is obviously a hardcore Wahhabi and a member of the same movement as usama bin laden [Wahhabism] has provided his usual rehashed rants and clandestine links. The content for all his illicit rants and links has been produced in Riyadh-Saudi (HQ of the Wahhabi movement) against the strongest global organisation (AICP) that has produced Azhar based refutations against Wahhabism; usama bin laden's movement.

McKhan has confessed already that AICP is linked to what he termed as a 'corrupt' Azhar. To McKhan, al-Azhar in Egypt is not 'corrupt' as he hatefully claims without proof. In fact, to the contrary and to McKhan's demise Al-Azhar is the most recognised Sunni authority and the oldest academic center in the Muslim world. It's recognised by Muslim Sunni scholars in South East Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, the Middle East north Africa, East Arica West Africa and the rest of the Muslim world. The only people that have historically had a problem with al-Azhar are the Wahhabis, for obvious reasons.

On that premise, I wonder who is short of legitimacy?

Muslimunity 00:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity

AICP is Azhar approved. Some more facts:
(fact 1) AICP has been approved by the Azhar

(fact 2) AICP has legitimate Sunni refutations against Wahhabism

(fact 3) usama bin laden's movement is not approved by the Azhar

Muslimunity 00:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity

McKhan IS A MAINSTREAM SUNNI --- Period
Muslimunity, FAKE LINKS?

You must be kidding....

This link is NOT fake - This is an AUTHENTIC Fatwa (Religious Decree) against Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs

This is also NOT fake (A research paper done by NON-WAHABIS / NON-MUSLIMS about Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND this link analyze and disclose Habashies / Al-Ahbash / Habashies:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

AND let me reiterate my questions AGAIN (...just in case... you didn't read the last time...):

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

Indee, AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash call all those mainstream Sunni Muslims - Kaafir (non-Muslim) and blasphemous .etc - who dare to challenge their scholar's INNOVATIONS. Indeed, AICP is the front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies: a STRAY SECT / CULT which hides behind the MAINSTREAM SUNNI Muslims to get legitimacy and to hide their TRUE COLORS.

Muslimunity, You cannot intimidate me. Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies love to intimidate. They love to pressure people to cave in and fulfil their demands. Fortunately, these tactics are NOT going to work on WikiPedia as it has stated NPOV guidelines.

Once again, last but not the least, what kind of "Muslim" are you? On the one hand, you use an id like Muslimunity and on the other - quite ironically - you castigate Wahabis, you launch personal attacks on me by accusing me of being a Wahabi though I have repeatedly trounced your claims by telling the truth that I am NOT a Wahabi but a mainstream Sunni.

McKhan

McKhan is an offstream Wahhabi propagandist
McKhan's claims are lies and his links are Wahhabi links. They are easily refuted by quoting the Azhar who regard Sheikh Abdullah Al-Harari's books with high esteem. The Sheikh's books carry the stamp of the Azhar on the inside. No Wahhabi book will ever carry that stamp. The Sheikh is a Shafi`i Sunni scholar from Harar in Ethipoia originally, he then travelled to the Hijaz and then to Jerusalem, Damascus and then settled in Beirut. The Sheikh was granted permission by the Muftis and the sholars of those cities to teach inside the cities' mosques, where he was attended by the highest scholars. Enough said.

The Sheikh's war on usama bin laden's movement is on. He will continue to refute this deviant and illicit movement and expose its baseless clandestine operations by quoting the early traditional scholars of Islam.

Wahhabism is on the decline.

Muslimunity 01:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC) Muslimunity

Muslimunity is NOT answering ANY of my "Sixty Million" Dollar Questions
Muslimunity, You cannot answer any of my LEGITIMATE SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR questions... Can you?

You are mad because you and your co-follower Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP have been disclosed by a MAINSTREAM SUNNI over the internet that you belong to a STRAY SECT / CULT called Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP.

You are trying to prove yourself "right" by resorting to personal attacks as well as using "politically correct" language which you have been doing all along and YET you have got the audacity to call yourself a "Muslim."

You must be living in a FOOL'S PARADISE if you think that calling me a Wahabi again and again will make me a Wahabi somehow. I AM a MAINSTREAM SUNNI and will always be.

From the FATWA (Religious Decree), Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs , issued by the SUNNIS, I quote:

''They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers. They also once spread that their leader died then they declared that it was a rumor. In such a way, they made people detest them as they were always linked with sedition. Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America.''

''In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."'' Based on the aforementioned facts, we'd like to conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

''3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path.'' (Source: Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs)

AND once again, this research paper done by NON-WAHABIS / NON-MUSLIMS shows that what kind of hedious tactics Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are using to hide their TURE COLORS:

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND the content of this link speaks by itself:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

Here are my SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONS:

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

The more you get MAD, the more it becomes CLEARER that AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash call all those mainstream Sunni Muslims - Kaafir (non-Muslim) and blasphemous .etc - who dare to challenge their scholar's INNOVATIONS. Indeed, AICP is the front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies: a STRAY SECT / CULT which hides behind the MAINSTREAM SUNNI Muslims to get legitimacy and to hide their TRUE COLORS.

Muslimunity, You cannot intimidate me. Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies love to intimidate. They love to pressure people to cave in and fulfil their demands. Fortunately, these tactics are NOT going to work on WikiPedia as it has stated NPOV guidelines.

Once again, last but not the least, what kind of "Muslim" are you? On the one hand, you use an id like Muslimunity and on the other - quite ironically - you castigate Wahabis, you launch personal attacks on me by accusing me of being a Wahabi though I have repeatedly trounced your claims by telling the truth that I am NOT a Wahabi but a mainstream Sunni.

P.S: Muslimunity, If you will continue attacking me personally and calling me a "Wahabi" and the follower of lunatic Osama & Co., I will request the WikiPedia Editors to ban you permanently the way you were banned from the other forum in which you tried to portray as a "Muslim" and then got disclosed eventually.

McKhan

Hariri assassination
It's still not clear, but Ahbash leaders have been linked to Hariri's assassination. I don't know if there's a responsability of the AICP or if it is individuals only.--equitor 23:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

AICP is free from Hariri claims
AICP is not implicated in the killing of the Hariri nor are any of its members. No evidence has been provided by the staunch ignorant campaign that has been launched by some Gulf based Arabic satellite channels including al-Jazeera. It seems there are some Wahhabi journalists inside al-Jazeera that are driving this smeer campaign against AICP.

AICP had to go through al-Arabiyya TV channel to be able to refute the Wahhabi driven hate campaign and false accusations.

Below is an interview by AICP spokesman Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir al-Fakihani.

Lebanese Islamic group denies involvement in Al-Hariri killing

21 October 2005

BBC Monitoring Middle East

Text of telephone interview with spokesman for the Lebanese Sunni Islamic group Al-Ahbash, Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir al-Fakihani in Beirut by Muhammad Abu-Ubayd, broadcast live by Dubai-based news channel Al-Arabiya TV on 21 October

[Abu-Ubayd] On the line with us is Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir al-Fakihani, official in charge of the media of the Al-Ahbash movement in Lebanon. Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir: Your movement's name was mentioned in [head of the international investigation commission, Detlev] Mehlis's report for involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq al-Hariri. What is your comment on what is in the report?

[Al-Fakihani] Good morning and thank you for this telephone call. First, I would like to say that we have not yet had the time to fully read the report, but we - just like many others - heard about it from the satellite television stations' translation of the report after midnight. As we have heard, the report gives details of the investigations and what the suspects and eyewitnesses said. The report gives details of many issues. In fact, we were surprised by what happened last night in terms of the large and serious rush to report things perhaps in an effort to record a media scoop or out of competition with others. We had hoped that some news media would be careful in their translation of the report into Arabic. We hoped there would be no rush or distortion of the words of the report, especially since we are faced with a serious, sensitive and important issue that requires accuracy in translation and in conveying the real information. For example, a satellite television station, and I will not name it now, said Ahmad Abd-al-Al, an official in Al-Ahbash, is one of the key people involved in the assassination. I want to ask where this satellite channel got this information from. Is this television station an international investigation commission? Where do these words come in Mehlis's international report? There is no such thing. There is no accusation against Ahmad Abd-al-Al or the Al-Ahbash movement. All the report says is that contacts took place between Ahmad Abd-al-Al and Lebanese security officials after the assassination. Ahmad Abd-al-Al cooperated with them in his capacity as a Lebanese citizen and an official in Al-Ahbash movement. He cooperated out of his desire to reveal the truth about the one who killed or assassinated Rafiq al-Hariri.

[Abu-Ubayd] Why should Mehlis say a contact took place minutes before the assassination?

[Al-Fakihani] This is an important question and I thank you for it. A short while ago, the Presidential Palace in Lebanon issued a statement denying this. I was told a short while ago that the Presidential Palace denied that a contact took place between President Emile Lahhud and Ahmad Abd-al-Al minutes before the blast. I would like to add - and this is important because we have the right to fully respond - that a massacre occurred yesterday in some of the news media. You participated in that massacre.

[Abu-Ubayd] We conveyed facts and nothing more.

[Al-Fakihani] No, no, a satellite channel said Ahmad Abd-al-Al is a key suspect. This is a media massacre that has nothing to do with facts. I tell you right now: Where is the text, word or sentence in the report which says Ahmad Abd-al-Al is a key suspect? The report did not say at all he is a principal or non-principal suspect. After the assassination, Ahmad Abd-al-Al tried to help the Lebanese state, the Lebanese people and the lovers of Al-Hariri to uncover the perpetrators. Is this a charge against him?

We want to say that Al-Ahbash as an Islamic movement and as a current and association of projects has absolutely nothing to do with it. Some of yesterday's media massacre echoed mere dreams and wishes by some. We do not belong to such groups and these are not our principles.

Muslimunity 08:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)Muslimunity


 * Giving interviews to ethnic or international channels doesn't prove anything. Let the justice prevail in the the courts to find out the truth. McKhan

Muslimunity is STILL NOT answering ANY of my "Sixty Million" Dollar Questions
Muslimunity, You cannot answer any of my LEGITIMATE SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR questions... Can you?

You are mad because you and your co-follower Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP have been disclosed by a MAINSTREAM SUNNI over the internet that you belong to a STRAY SECT / CULT called Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP.

You are trying to prove yourself "right" by resorting to personal attacks as well as using "politically correct" language which you have been doing all along and YET you have got the audacity to call yourself a "Muslim."

You must be living in a FOOL'S PARADISE if you think that calling me a Wahabi again and again will make me a Wahabi somehow. I AM a MAINSTREAM SUNNI and will always be.

From the FATWA (Religious Decree), Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs , issued by the SUNNIS, I quote:

''They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers. They also once spread that their leader died then they declared that it was a rumor. In such a way, they made people detest them as they were always linked with sedition. Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America.''

''In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."'' Based on the aforementioned facts, we'd like to conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

''3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path.'' (Source: Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs)

AND once again, this research paper done by NON-WAHABIS / NON-MUSLIMS shows that what kind of hedious tactics Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are using to hide their TURE COLORS:

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND the content of this link speaks by itself:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

Here are my SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONS:

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

The more you get MAD, the more it becomes CLEARER that AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash call all those mainstream Sunni Muslims - Kaafir (non-Muslim) and blasphemous .etc - who dare to challenge their scholar's INNOVATIONS. Indeed, AICP is the front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies: a STRAY SECT / CULT which hides behind the MAINSTREAM SUNNI Muslims to get legitimacy and to hide their TRUE COLORS.

Muslimunity, You cannot intimidate me. Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies love to intimidate. They love to pressure people to cave in and fulfil their demands. Fortunately, these tactics are NOT going to work on WikiPedia as it has stated NPOV guidelines.

Once again, last but not the least, what kind of "Muslim" are you? On the one hand, you use an id like Muslimunity and on the other - quite ironically - you castigate Wahabis, you launch personal attacks on me by accusing me of being a Wahabi though I have repeatedly trounced your claims by telling the truth that I am NOT a Wahabi but a mainstream Sunni.

P.S: Muslimunity, If you will continue attacking me personally and calling me a "Wahabi" and the follower of lunatic Osama & Co., I will request the WikiPedia Editors to ban you permanently the way you were banned from the other forum in which you tried to portray as a "Muslim" and then got disclosed eventually.

McKhan

Stop re-posting the same Wahhabi propaganda
I would advice that the repeated posts be stopped. These posts as stated earlier are taken from wahhabi based websites sympathetic with usama ben laden's global terrorist operation. They are fraudulent fabrications coming out from the same illegitimate centers in riyadh that publish literature for bin laden's wahhabi movement.

So stop re-posting the same post over and over. These posts only show how extremist in thought the wahhabi underground movement is.

The Sunni orthodox group Al-Ahbash are an international and non-violent association with the logistical capacity and the theological defense capable of refuting with traditional Sunni teachings the wahhabi idelogies of usama bin laden's movement of evil - this is an AICP stated objective.

It is for these reasons that 5 from the ayn al-helwe wahhabi group usbat al-ansar were charged and executed for killing the former leader of AICP in 1995. Abu mohjen the leader of usbat al-ansar (convicted in absentia) is still on the loose and reported to be al-zarqawi's second man in Iraq.

AICP resorted to the Lebanese security system in the wake of the killing of their leader in 1995, and not one bullet was shot. This is testimonial to AICP's non-violent and philanthropic conviction.

Muslimunity 00:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

If you will stop your AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash propaganda then I will also stop posting....
Muslimunity, None of these web-sites are based out of Saudi Arabia.

Mainstream Sunni Scholars have issued this FATWA:

Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs

This web-site is NOT even run by the Muslims or Wahabis.

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND the content of this link speaks by itself:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

You still haven't been able to answer any of my SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONS:

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>

Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?

Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?

Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics?

After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?

Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

The more you get MAD, the more it becomes CLEARER that AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash call all those mainstream Sunni Muslims - Kaafir (non-Muslim) and blasphemous .etc - who dare to challenge their scholar's INNOVATIONS. Indeed, AICP is the front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies: a STRAY SECT / CULT which hides behind the MAINSTREAM SUNNI Muslims to get legitimacy and to hide their TRUE COLORS.

Muslimunity, If you will stop recycling the same propaganda about AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash being part of mainstream Sunni Muslims - AND - stop attempting to modify the "Al-Ahbash" WikiPedia reasonably neutral page over and over again to fit to your own agenda - then - I will also stop pasting. After all, I am not the one who is attempting to modify that page to fit to my bill but Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP and its followers by themselves. I am quite content with Tearlach's version of that page which is somewhat neutral.

And last but not the least, I wonder what is so sacriligious and contemptuous about being Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP which doesn't make its followers comfortable enough to be proud of their sect / cult that they like to "fit-in" among mainstream Sunni Muslims.

McKhan

I would like to have a rational and non-biased discussion regarding this definition of Al-Ahbash
I would like to discuss the actual content of the Al-Ahbash article if i may. It mentions the following "an interpretation of Islam combining elements of Sunni and Shi'a theology with Sufism" - I would like to know the source of this statement and the evidence for it.

american_iraqi


 * It was an attempt to summarise and merge the descriptions at the three cited sources: their own promotional website; a critical description; and what appears to be a fairly balanced and properly-sourced paper in an academic journal. It incorporated other academic sources such as Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context. Tearlach 15:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind, I answered my own question
The source of this statement is located here: http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/al-ahbash.html#back-notes-40 in the section entitled "THE SHI'A DIMENSION". Being of Iraqi origin i think i would be able to recognize Shi'a and what is mentioned in that article has nothing to do with Shi'a, in fact I know that Abu Hanifah himself said the same thing regarding Imam Ali. Besides if this Shaykh Al-Habashi quoted Imam Ash-Shafi'i then how does that make it a Shi'a belief? That doesn't make any sense. Although we don't go as far as to curse Mu'awiya and declare him a blasphemer, clearly his actions resulted in thousands of muslims being killed and such an act has nothing to do with ijtihad. Ijtihad is reserved for those who reached that level in Islamic knowledge and Mu'awiya was not a Mujtahid. I also remember hearing that the Great Scholar of Hadith An-Nasa'i was killed by some ignorant people because he wrote a book about the merits of Imam Ali and when they asked him why doesn't he write about Mu'awiya he said there is no confirmed hadith that praises Mu'awiya (may Allah have mercy on him) the only confirmed hadith mentions that he eats alot. So those people got upset and killed him. Again, if this Shaykh is following An-Nasa'i in this issue how does that make him a partial Shi'a???

I think we are having a good discussion...
I think we are having a good discussion apart from some people who are attemtpting to modify the page to fit to their own agenda. Indeed, Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP is / are mixing Shia and Sunnis' teachings with Sufism. A cursory view of their scholar's "teachings" will reveal that all Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP insist upon is the "teachings" of their own "scholar." If something fits to the "teachings" of their "scholar" regardless whether it is coming from Shia or Sunni or Sufi school of thought - that is automatically "suitable" or "legal" for them.

McKhan

That's a Bold Statement
I am not familiar with the inter-workings of the Ahbash but i have met a few here and there. In any case, do have an example in which they mix Sunni Ideas with Shi'a? Personally i refuse to declare any person(s) claiming to be muslim a deviant without concrete proof. And it seems to me that people as usual are just making claims and expecting people to bindly follow them. So if you have proof i'd like to see it for my own sake because i wouldn't want to follow a group that's deviant.

american_iraqi

In regards to Tearlach's comment
Some of what you said i agree with. However, i am actually familiar with the website called Talkaboutislam.com and i've spoken with the person who established it. Based on that i can not accept the source you cited as an Academic Resource because it makes the claim that talkaboutislam.com is an Ahbash endorsed website when in fact it is not. The person who established it has an Ahbash background but he is his own person. The doesn't answer to their leaders; he is a rouge so to speak. i know that for a fact. So one can not take the actions of one person and label it the methodology of an entire group. I'm actually going to find the phone number to their headquaters and call them to see what they have to say about this. I'd rather hear it from the "horse's mouth".

american_iraqi


 * I know this is a sincere attempt on your part to check out the background, but it won't help. The big problem here is with the Wikipedia guidelines on original research. The only thing we're allowed to go by is reputable published material on the subject. Tearlach 22:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

This whole page has plenty of links for you to read
American_Iraqi, This page as well as the Google, Yahoo .etc have plenty of sources for you to consider as "concrete proof" to establish the fact that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP is a stray sect / cult which likes to hide its true colors behind mainstream Muslims.

McKhan

I don't know
The links which have been posted against them so far have been information compiled by people labeled as wahhabis or salafis. And honestly i don't trust them. I don't want to get into that issue right now but i would i will try to do more research. I did speak with a friend of mine who lives close to New York and i asked him about the Ahbash. He told me that they were good and that the shaykhs from Senegal praise them. I have another friend in Malaysia who i will contact as well and i will atempt to read their books and i will weigh what they say according to the rules of the Religion and what the scholars from 1000 years ago said. If i find that they say things which Abu Hanifah (my Imam) or Malik or Shafi'i didn't say then i will stay away from them, if not then i will consider them guided. May Allah guide us All! Please forgive my for my ignorance.

American_Iraqi

"labeled as wahhabis or salafis" by who? by the Habashies / AICP / Al-Ahbash"? Of course, they will label everybody who try to dislcose them the way they want....
American_Iraqi, You know the guy who runs TalkAboutIslam.com and you even tried to defend him in your above lines. In your recent post, your friend in New York have told you that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are "good" people. Further, you are undermining the links posted in this page by following the tag-line of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP who try to "label" everybody who is out there to disclose them as wahhabi or salafi. Doesn't it show that you are "biased" and "irrational" already? AND yet you have got the audacity to claim that you would like to have "rational and non-biased discussion" regarding this definition of Al-Ahbash? - AND - you would like to hear the truth from "horse's mouth"? WOW! I am really impressed. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck with your "research" and "phone calls" to the AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash. Lets see what sort of cat you bring out of the sack.

McKhan

no need for calling names!
may Allah guide you!

Likewise :)
Likewise :)

McKhan

McKahn seems awfully defensive....
...for someone who believes they are correct. He rants on like a child in this entire article repeating the same questions which are falacious to start with. Such as "Why do they have such websites?" This is a silly question. They have websites to spread their belief obviously. And believe me, for every habishi website you claim to have found, the Wahabis has 10 more. Stop acting like a child and calling Muslims devient sects and using arguments such as claiming to have concrete proof just because you claim that anyone can do a google search and this is concrete proof. ^utho Billah! Claiming that a Muslim is a non muslim without hearing such a person commit blasphemy is itself a blasphemy. Please Mckahn, check your own heart and judge youeself harshly before you judge others. As-salamu ^alaykum to any Muslims reading this.

You seem to be the follower or sympathizer of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP
You seem to be the follower or sympathizer of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP based in Southern California. Thats why you are calling my logical quesitons "rants" and "blasphemous" and "childish" which is quite typical of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP followers. Indeed, Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP is a stray sect which hides behind the mainstream Sunni Muslims. As far as "proof" is concerned, there is ample evidence / proof available on this page as well as through out the internet about the true colors of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Mainstream Sunni Scholars' FATWA about Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs

This web-site is NOT even run by the Muslims or Wahabis.

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND the content of this link speaks by itself:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

McKhan

"heretical" is a POV
"beleifs seen as heretical" is a point of view, ALSO you didn't specify WHO they are heretical to?..According to whom are they heretical? etc?...you cannot just say they advocate heretic beleifs without stateing according to WHOM are the beleifs heretical. The same way i cannot go to a christian article and say "these are all kafirs"..i CAN however say "according to muslims, these are kafirs" beacsue i am stateing who this point of view belongs to, simply stateing they are kafirs is a point of view with no soruce, if you DO have a soruce which supports your claime, then you say "According to *source* this group teaches heretical beleifs"

Please follow the NPOV policy. Crono 01:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)cronodevir

And yet you are posting Habashies' / AICP / Al-Ahbash 'POVs' and hedious links on WikiPedia-Islamic pages?
So, you are a Habashie from Montreal, Canada who is here to rescue Abdullah al-Harariyy / Habashies / Al-Ahbash by insisting that the word "heretical" is 'POV' and simultaneously you have the audacity to propogate 'Abdullah al-Harariyy' and post AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash's POVs + HIDDEN links to Habashies' / Al-Ahbash's web-site, www.aicp.org, on WikiPedia pages which are pertinent to Islam and Muslims - to promote your religious cult by hiding your true colors.

By posting those BIASED and TWISTED POVs - You think you are following the WikiePedia guidelines?

This version of Al-Ahbash page was written by Tearlach, a non-Muslim and non-Habashie, which is somewhat NPOV-compliant.

I am not going to waste my breathe by giving you "sources" about the usage of "Hertical." There are plenty of sources available over the internet AND on this page. Go and figure.

McKhan

--- fine, i don't care if you have soruces, but you MUST post them ON the page in that line where you make the claim, you have to state "According to *source" they push forward beleifs that are considered heretical"..other wise you will find me reverting the edit every single day, i have plenty of time. You either make it NPOV, or deal with me editing it every day. Your choice.

Also, external links don't have to be NPOV Crono 12:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)cronodevir


 * I am NOT going to baby-sit you for "sources." If you have so much time I have so much time as well. Ask Tearlach, a non-Muslim and non-Habashie, as he finalized that version. You are trying to promote Habashies' POVs by inserting aicp.com HIDDEN links and yet you think it is NOT the violation of NPOV guidelines. What you are doing is called VANDALISM not "reverting." And rest assued, I have ample time as well. :) McKhan

What a reatrd, firslty, I DIDN'T EVEN ADD ANY LINKS TO THE PAGE, the ONLY edit i did was rtemove the opposeing point of view that was posted, it is a REQUIREMENT to cite your soruces, preferable in the SAME line you makethe claime, here is an example.

Y is a retard according to X

You MUST state whos point of view we are talking about.

Secondly, non-muslims makes no diffrence, we are tlaking about the guidelines set by the wikipedia official, and you MUST cite soruces for every non-NPOV comment added, saying "Group x teachers heretical beleifs" is incorrect, what SHOULD be said is "According to Y groupe X teaches heretical beleifs"

What does it matter if tearlach finalized it?..that doesn't chnage the fact that it is not NPOV when it coems to this comment.

Now, as i said, unless you cite the soruces, i will edit the page every time it violates the NPOV rule. Crono 00:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)cronodevir

Shia beleifs according to who?
Another non-NPOV opinion. The group themselves will admit to teachign Sunni Islam and Sufi teachings, they don't however admit to teachign Shia Islam, so there should be a footnote or a soruce stateing WHO exactly says that this group teaches Shia beliefs, You cannot jsut edit the artcle and post your opinion, you must cite soruce. Crono 00:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Your ULTIMATE goal IS to HabashaNIZE this page AND to promote Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP belifs...
You just want to make sure that aicp.com / Habashies / Al-Ahbash blends-in among the mainstream Sunni Muslims. Tearlach's version is NEUTRAL 'coz there are lots of stuff which can be written on Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP but, obviously, you wouldn't like it as it won't fit your agenda.

I am quite content with that version 'coz I have NO agenda like you. I just want the page to be neutral. And what you are trying to do here is to HABASHANIZE that page using WikiPedia's NPOV guidelines.

Tearlach is a third / independent party. It is all about differentiating between Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP, a religious CULT, AND Sunni, mainstream Muslims - BUT - keeping this page NEUTRAL. And your whole purpose to be on WikiePedia IS to HABASHANIZE the WikePedia pages to promote AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash's agenda.

If you will read the whole discussion then you wouldn't be asking me about the sources 'coz they are there. But you are simply ignoring them. Why? Because they don't fit to your agenda. AND that is the bottom line.

I have gone through the list of your "contributions" to WikePedia pages and I have seen that you are delibrately placing aicp.com links and you are linking back to their web-site.

So, I will keep reverting back to Tearlach's version.

McKhan

How is following wiki guidelines 'habashinizeing' it?...you have no logic man.

So, your linking to website that ADMIT to whahabism, and ADMIT that they are indeed a deviant sect, and?

Also, it doesn't matter if the soruce are in the discussion page, THEY HAVE TO BE ON THE ARTICLE PAGE, preferable in the SAME line as the statement is being made.

again, an example would be: Group Y believes A according to X

note i made X a link, becasue THAT is how you cite your soruces, people clikc the link and it goes to the soruce, if it is an external link you would say:

Group Y beleives A according to X1

Again, place your sources on the page for EVERYONE to see them and judge wether your soruces are valid or not, you cannot hide the soruce on the discussion page as not everyone looks at the discussion page. Thus this would be considered an act of hideing information, or 'convinently placeing it somewhere in which it is unlikely to be read" the same way big company use tiny ass text on thier products to let you know the turth about things which would be opposeing to thier product.

Again, again. I don't CARE if you want to post your anti-habashi stuff, BUT if you do it you WILL cite the soruces, or ti will be removed, though i think the only reason you won't cite them is becasue you know people won't and don't believe your soruces, but that is another discussion.

Also, you seem to think that a non-muslim writeing an artcle about a muslim group is smart idea, i for one think it is the worst idea, thus i frankly don't care that there is a supposedly npov version 'wirrtten by a non habashi/nonmuslim" You don't ask a Rocket Sceintist to write an article about Psycology.

I'm even giveing you the benefit of the doubt and letting you post your obviously wrong opinion, so long as you provide soruces.

So, i say you either provide soruces for those two claimes, or we continue this edit war.

Crono 02:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To borrow words from Tearlach, "Read NPOV. I chose those links because they represent a spread of views: one well-referenced and (as far as I can tell neutral) academic article; one from the official AICP site, which is completely uncritical of Al-Ahbash; and one fairly representative of what its critics say about it. Tearlach 02:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC), I refuse to baby-sit you on those sources. Merely reiterating the same mantra or monologue of NPOV-guidelines is not going to cut it as Tearlach has pointed out in his own words (Read his lines again). When two parties don't see each other eye to eye then only a third / independent party, in this case that party is Tearlach, can help. I don't categorically agree with Tearlach's version but it is way more NEUTRAL than what you are trying to do - OR - I would like to see on this page. Sources are on this page and they are NOT only independent but also ACADEMIC. I know that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP will continue to HABASHANIZE this page... So, I will keep reverting back to Tearlach's NPOV-compliant version. McKhan

But his version isn't NPOV complient, ebacsue there are opinions states with no soruces linking to them. So good luck, every time you edit the page, it will revert back.

You must cite the soruces for each opinion stated in the article. Crono 04:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It is quite obvious that you don't know how to find sources ON THIS VERY PAGE. So, I will revert that page back to Tearlach's NPOV-compliant version. McKhan

It doesn't matter if I can find them, YOU HAVE TO POST THEM WHERE OTHERS CAN SEE THEM, its a very simple concept, post the soruces on the same exact page with a footnote leading to the statement or with the soruce as a link directly in the statement.

You can't put the soruces for one opinion on an artcle, on another page other than that article. Very few people actually read the discussion page, much less know that it exists. And the fact that it is convenint for you to burry your so called soruces on the discussion page and not on the article page where everyone can see them has no sway on wether or not your following the guidlines, the guidlines say you MUST state a soruce, OBVIOUISLY, on the same page.

I am not supposed to read something on G.W Bush article that states and opinion, and then have to go to the Government article to find the soruce for the info posted on the GW Bush article.

The soruces have to be on the same page for everyone to see them, i would do it myself, but i don't consider anyhtign you have posted to be a soruce. So i won't do it, i will how ever remove statements that are uncited and completely random.

According to you, wiki says that Group A teaches heretical beleifs. Thanks for giveing Wiki an opinioon on the subject.

That is the whole beauty of it that I didn't even write that version...
That is the whole beauty of it that I DID NOT WRITE that version but Tearlach did. And YOU SUPPOSED TO READ THE SOURCES if you are a fair-minded person. Remember, there is a FATWA (religious decress) against the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP from the mainstream SUNNI scholars. I would like to post that. I also would like to post all this:-

Mainstream Sunni Scholars' FATWA about Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP:

Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs

This web-site is NOT even run by the Muslims or Wahabis.

Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context

AND the content of this link speaks by itself:

The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)

and this:

"Sixty Million Dollar questions are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:

<ul> <li>http://www.alsunna.org/</li> <li>http://mouhammad.org/</li> <li>http://asha3ira.com/</li> <li>http://maturidi.com/</li> <li>http://jawaaher.com/</li> <li>http://forumislam.com/</li> <li>http://talkaboutislam.com/</li> </ul>


 * Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites?


 * Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?


 * Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics? After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?


 * Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees to warn people against them?

and so on and so forth......

These are all legitimate questions which Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP try to avoid."

But that won't make THAT page NEUTRAL. Will it?

Thats why Tearlach's version is a compromise - but - obviously it is not 'NPOV-Compliant' according to Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP because it doesn't glorify them. Instead, it spells out the core and neutral information by clearly differentiating between Sunnis and Habashies / Al-Ahbash. If you want to be considered among mainstream Sunnis then JOIN THE MAINSTREAM SUNNIS - otherwise - remain in the RELIGIOUS CULT of Habashies / Al-Ahabash / AICP. It is your choice.

In the meantime, I will keep reverting back to Tearlach's version which is way more NPOV-compliant and academic and contain the NEUTRAL sources with-in.

McKhan

Your kafir scholars like bin baaz and albani arew NOT sunni scholars, they are stanchly whahabie, nor are there any official sunni shcolars in Saudi Arabia.

Secondly, it doesn't matter whos point of view the artcile is coemign form, what DOES matter is the fact that there are staements on the page that arn't backed with evidence.

You see, for everyone else jsut tuneing in, the habashis biggest enemies are the whahabies, and vice versa, it has been made clear this guy McKhan is a whahabie. and it si also clear he is pushign forward hsi agenda, if you will notice, untill this post, i ahve not even ocne critizised his whahabie group, yet every other sentence coeming from him is a slander to AICP, calling us a cult and a sect, we follow Ahl-Sunnah wal-Jummah, the exact same stuff that you hear us saying, can be found in books by most classical shcolars such as Imam SHaffiyyah, Imam Hanbal, Imam Malik, Imam Hannafi, Imam Ahsari, Ibn Asakir, Imam anawawi, imam at-hawawiyy.

I have been trying to avoid a religious debate by simply stateing the obviosu...That Mchan is posting commenst ON the artcile WITHOUT the soruces lsited ON the article, he is posting the comment on the artcle that we :

1. Teach shia beleifs, which is false.

2. We teach heretical beleifs. Which of course is false.

THese are the main statements i am concerned with, BOTH of which are cited by NO soruces what so ever, and they are VERY major offenses agaisnt thew subject.

Its like if i posted a comment on Mother Tersas artcle that says "She advocated the slautghering of animals" without psoting any sources.The reason i disapprove of a non muslim article the artcle, becasue a non muslim doesn't know exactly HOW biased these comments are.I do nto wish to turn this into a religious debate as to wether those two statemnets are true, i know they arn't McKhan knows they arn't, this arguement has been going on sence the 20's.

IMHO i woudl simply remove both commenst if i coudl, but that would be biased.

I don't care if they are there, but you MUST cite the soruces, you most QUOTe the perosn that said this, if you don't your makeing it look like two things.

1. that these statemenst are known facts, which they arn't. and 2. without citeing sources, you make it seem as if the Wiki is takeing a side of the arguement, which is completely agaisnt policy. As it woudl be stupid and wrogn for me to post information agaisnt the people i follow, i ahve simply chose to delete the commenst untill soemone else posts them correctly.

McKhan, i'm going to report you for breaking the policy of Wiki if yopu keep reverting it back to the invalid version of the artcile. Your goign against the wiki policy by posting un supported statements, if you insist on keep the commenst, you msut post soruces on the same page. You know as well as i do and everyone else here, the average user doesn't and won't read through an entier discussion page jsut to find the validity of one statement.

BTW, the core of this problem, for you non-muslims is, the Habashies say Allah is not in the sky, and he does nto have parts...the whahabies, the anthropomorphists, say that Allah does have a body, and Is in the sky phsyicaly.

Also the term habashi was coined by whahabies becasue the foudner of AICP was from a place in ethiopia called habash.

McKhan is NOT a Wahabi but belong to a mainstream Sunni Muslim family which is Sunni for CENTURIES
Once again, you are NOT able to answer any of my question with any logic, reason or rationality. Consequently, you have resorted to your tactics by accusing me as a Wahabi.

I am NOT a Wahabi. To the contrary, I belong to a mainstream Muslim family who is Sunni for centuries. And I have seen with my own eyes what sort of hedious tactics, slogans and singboards Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are using to hide their true colors and to blend-in among mainstream Sunni Muslims.

Here is something which is written academically about the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP's Shi'a Dimension.

THE SHI'A DIMENSION

''One of the most revealing aspects of Shaykh Habashi's thought is his acceptance of the Shi'a doctrine of legitimacy. He begins by quoting Shafi'i, that everyone who fought 'Ali was a baghi (transgressor). 37 Habashi further cites Ibn Hanbal to jus tify 'Ali's caliphate against Mu'awiya and his "faction of transgressors" (al-firqa al-baghiya). 38 As a further step, Habashi underlines the legitimacy of all four members of the Prophet's family -Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn -by citing the canonical writings of Muslim and al-Nisa'i. 39 Equally significant is Shaykh Habashi's rejection of the use of ijtihad by some Sunni jurists to legitimize Mu'awiya's opposition to 'Ali. As a case in point, Habashi takes issue with Ibn Taymiyya's view that fighting with 'Ali against Mu'awiya was neither a duty nor a Sunna. This product of Ibn Taymiyya's ijtihad is found invalid by Habashi because of the presence of a clear Qur'anic text and hadith. In support of his position, Habashi cites the verse "fight the group that is a transgressor," along with the Prophet's hadith warning 'Ammar bin Yasir, a companion of Muhammad and 'Ali, about the faction of transgressors who would kill him. Habashi concludes that "the faction of transgressors" was that of Mu'awiya, and fighting on 'Ali's side was a duty and Sunna. 40 Furthermore, Habashi explicitly disagrees with most contemporary Sunni jurists by citing several ahadith in order to uphold the legitimacy of the imama of 'Ali and of his sons Hasan and Husayn.41 Also, Habashi upholds the teachings of Imam Husayn's son, Zayn al-'Abidin, who is held in high esteem by the Ahbash. 42 Yet, beyond his acceptance of the foregoing doctrinal positions, Habashi's closeness to Shi'ism comes from another source-his deep immersion in Sufism.'' (Source:

Further, If Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are such a good Muslim then why do they hide behind the mainstream Sunni Muslims in the West and around the globe. They failed misrebly in Australia, Middle East and in North America. Indeed, it is rigt there in that academic article what Habashies' true beliefs are but they refuse to let it go.

And last but NOT the least, that FATWA has been issued by the mainstream SUNNI scholars, which includes but NOT limited to MAINSTREAM Sunni scholars like Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr (founding member and president of the Muslim Students Association of the U.S.A and Canada - AND - the Islamic Society of North America (or ISNA) and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi (former President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). What sort of other MAINSTREAM Sunni SCHOLARS do we need to prove the fact that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are NOT, I repeat NOT, among the mainstream SUNNI Muslims but a religious CULT.

And NOT only that non-Muslims academics have also proven the fact that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP promotes its agenda and hide its true colors by twisting the facts. To borrow words from Tearlach, "If put more neutrally - "that the web presence downplays the Sufi elements"? - I'd have to agree. This journal article Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context from ISIM (which looks a respectable University of Amsterdam source) supports the view that Al-Ahbash presents itself on the web as simply "Islamic", with a covert agenda at times. For example, TalkAboutIslam.com claims on the front page to be an unaffiliated group of Sunni scholars - until you click the link the true teachings of Islam and the true islamic doctrine and find it's an AICP site." Tearlach 20:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Go and figure why would MAINSTREAM Sunni Scholars will issue a FATWA against their so-called "Sunni" compatriots - AND - How can Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP continue using their hedious tactics to promote their religious cult and MISGUIDE people in the presense of non-Muslim academics and authors? It doesn't make any sense. Does it?

I knew it all along and know for the future that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP will continue to HABASHANIZE this page and other pages of the WikiPedia by using their hedious tactics and to promote their agenda.

So, I will keep reverting back to the Tearlach's version of this page which is somewhat neutral and quite WikePedia NPOV-compliant.

McKhan

Ok, do you believe ibn tmaiyyah was a great scholar?...if you do, then your a whahabie. Beacsue every sunni scholar of his time declared him incorrect on everyhting. He was also arrested 4 times on counts of blasphemy. The only ones today who see any light in his works are the whahabies and modernists. And the modernists don't hate the Habash.

Secondly. The Shia do not have INCORRECT aqqedah, all of their problems are issues with FIQH, not aqqedah. They believe god exists without a place, does nto have a body or location. Some shia however believe Allah does not decree the destiny of everyone.

The whahabies believe Allah phsyically sits on the arsh and has a phsyical body. They think allah is bound by space and time. Which is kufr.

Thirdly, i didn't answer your questions because they are not relevant, I am not argueing the ligitamacy of the habashies, I am argueing the fact that there are un backed comments on the page. You seem to fail to see that this discussion has NOTHING to do with religioun, but with wiki poloitics and guidlines. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN if you want your hearsay posted on the article, what i DO care about si wether you back it up with soruces or not and wether they are on the same page in open view for everyone to read and deduce thier own judgements.


 * Tearlach's version is backed up with INDEPENDENT / THIRD-PARTY and ACADEMIC sources. If this is NOT the religious issue then what are you doing on WikiPedia defedning your religious CULT.

Fourthly. Besides this fact, the article is NOT complete. In the future, i am planning on adding ALOT to it, such as the history of the gorup, and what they beleive in reguards to Aqqedah. I have no shame for anyhtign they say, as it is complete authentic sunni islam according to the classical scholars. Crono 12:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We will see. In the meantime, learn how to write without resorting to profanity and abusive language. By doing so, you are in the violation of WikiPedia civility guidelines. McKhan

Mainstream Sunni's FATWA against the Habashies / AICP / Al-Ahbash
"Al-Ahbash is a stray sect that follows `Abdullah ibn Al-Habashi. It has recently appeared in Lebanon taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty that resulted from the Lebanese civil war. It calls for the revival of the approaches of the advocates of the science of Kalam (theology), Sufis, and the Batiniyyah, with the aim of corrupting the Islamic creed, fragmenting Muslims and distracting them from their main issues.

Establishment:

`Abdullah Al-Harari Al-Habashi is `Abdullah ibn Muhammad Ash-Shybi Al-`Abdary by lineage, and is called Al-Harary because he comes from the city of Harar in Abyssinya (Al-Habashah). He came to Lebanon in 1950 after he incited sedition against Muslims there. He joined hands with the ruler of Indragy, the son in law of Hilasilasy , against the Islamic schools for teaching Qur’an in the city of Harar in 1376 AH/1940 CE causing what is known as the sedition of the Kolob country which resulted in sentencing the manager of the schools to twenty three years of imprisonment then he was exiled to Joury county and died there.

Moreover, the rest of the Sheikhs and callers to Islam fell in the hands of Hilasilasy who humiliated them and drove them to flee to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. That’s why `Abdullah Al-Harary was called ‘ the leader of the sedition”. Since he came to Lebanon he kept inciting sedition exactly as he used to do in his country and kept spreading his corrupt beliefs, insulting the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) accusing `A'ishah, the mother of the believers (may Allah be pleased with her) of not following Allah’s orders in addition to issuing wrongful fatwas.

Al-Habashi has recently succeeded in attracting a large group of insolent fanatics who do not consider anyone as a Muslim unless he declared his submission to their leader and his corrupt creed that includes the Batinyyah and the Rafidah. Moreover, they force themselves on people by going to their houses and insisting that they learn the Habashi creed.

Beliefs and dogmas:

Reading thoroughly all that has been issued by such sect, one would clearly see that they violate the principles of Islam and its main creed. Following are some of their beliefs:

1- Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam. 2- Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18)

3- They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel.

4- They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i.

5- They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik.

6- They abuse the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) particularly Mu`awiyah, `A'ishah, Khalid ibn al-Walid. They declared that Mu`awayh (may Allah be pleased with him) was not a true believer. In such case, they are similar to the Rafidah who also insult the Prophet’s Companions. [Muslims must abstain from discussing the relationship between the Prophet’s Companions and their disagreements. They must also recognize their role in promoting Islam and their being privileged with the Companionship of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). It is confirmed that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Do not abuse my Companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Mountain Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a mudd or even a half mudd spent by one of them."‏ Allah Almighty says: “And those who came (into the faith) after them say: Our Lord Forgive us and our brethren who were before us in the faith, and place not in our hearts any rancor toward those who believe. Our Lord! Thou art Full of Pity, Mercifl.” (Al-Hashr: 10)]

7- One of the most flagrant violations of this sect is their issuing of wrong fatwas that contradict the Qur'an and the Sunnah. For instance, they consider gambling with non-believers permissible in order to take away their money as long as this does not lead to sedition. Moreover, they consider robbing the harvest and the cattle of non-believers and permissible. They also consider it permissible to deal in Riba (interest) with non-Muslims, and to join lottery games. Moreover, one of their most obvious violations to the principles of religion is their declaration that it is permissible to look lustfully at women, on television or elsewhere, and also that intermingling between men and women without any restrictions is permissible. These are some examples of their weird fatwas that clearly contradict Shari`ah and consider all grave sins as permissible practices.

8- One of their mean ways of making Mulsims abstain from following the scholars of Islam is their belittling of their status, insulting them and labeling many of them as kuffar (non-Muslims). Among the scholars which they labeled as kuffar Ibn Taymiyyah, Adh-Dhahabi, Muhammad ibn Abdel-Wahhab, Sayyed Sabiq, Sayyed Qutb, etc."

Translated excerpts, with modifications, from Al-Mawsu`ah Al-Fiqhiyyah Al-Muyassarah fi Al-Adyan wal Madhahib Al-Mu`asirah.

In this context, we'd like to cite for you the following fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar, Dr. `Ali Jum`ah, Professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at Al-Azhar University:

“This sect follows `Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi, and it has surface and deep levels. At the surface, this sect seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School as regards creed. However, at the deep level, their main intention is to corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam.

After inciting sedition in Harar, `Abdullah Al-Habashi moved to Beirut where he started deceiving young men into joining his suspected group. He worked as an editor for publishers in Lebanon and started to cooperate with the Jews and their agents in South Lebanon. He started in the seventies to spread his corrupt thoughts and to declare many scholars as non-Muslims, especially Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Muhammad `Abdul Wahhab , the Hanbalis and all those who held different views from his under the pretext that they violate the principles of Imam Al-Ash`ari or what he has understood from the texts of the Shafi`is.

Moreover, he urged his followers to incite sedition wherever they go. For instance, they cause such a controversy concerning the direction of the Qiblah in America violating all the principles of modern science claiming that they are just innovations and rejecting substantial evidence. They caused the same problem in Japan.

In addition to causing a problem over their following other Muslims in prayers, the problem over food, the controversy over getting married to women belonging to other revealed religions and other issues that are controversial amongst Muslim scholars.

They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers. They also once spread that their leader died then they declared that it was a rumor. In such a way, they made people detest them as they were always linked with sedition. Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America.

In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."

Based on the aforementioned facts, we'd like to conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

'''3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path.'''

McKhan

It sitll doesn't change the fact that your version is NON-NPOV
Your version it not NPOV, which is the point of this discussion?..i have no care in wasteing my time trying to refute you, as you don't believe ion authentic Sunnah wal-Jummah. I will not discuss this further with you, i will simply continune to revert the page to a npov complaint version.

You are twisting and abusing WikiPedia NPOV-Gudilines = Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are a stray sect / CULT
I find it quite amusing that you belong to a STRAY sect / CULT and yet you think that you are 'authentic' "Sunni." Your attempts of sanitizing the Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP have proven to the readers that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP have identity crisis as they mix Sufism, Shia-ism and Sunnism - delibrately - and use their teachings - selectively - to fit to their agenda. The question is how many places will you go to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP from the stigma of its own identity crisis.

Here are your own words: "The Shia do not have INCORRECT aqqedah, all of their problems are issues with FIQH, not aqqedah. They believe god exists without a place, does nto have a body or location. Some shia however believe Allah does not decree the destiny of everyone." ... and YET you have got the audacity to complain about the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP's Shia Dimension.?

Tearlach is NOT a follower Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP like you and not a Sunni Muslim like me.Tearlach has used independent sources.

Rest assured, I will keep an eye on this page and keep reverting back to Tearlach's WikiPedia NPOV-compliant version.

McKhan

Tearlach has used no soruces for those two statements.


 * Tearlach wrote those "statements" after analyzing Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context and A Sufi response to political islamism: Al-ahbash of Lebanon and others. And both of the links are RIGHT there on that page. McKhan

Secondly, We don't teach shia beleifs, we mearly tell people that not all shia are kafir, becasue thier problem is a Fiqh problem, it has nothing to do with thier aqqedah.


 * I know what Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP teach in their centers. They put the signboard of "Jama' Ahl Wa Sunnah" on the front of their center and once you are IN, you find out that these people are NOT Sunnis but a RELIGIOUS CULT which teaches to its followers a mixture of Shiaism, Sufism and Sunnism. McKhan

Secondly, your a whahabie, as whahabies are the only people who have problems with us...Why? becasue we are the only group who stands up agaisnt the kafir muhammad ibn abdulwhahab, and ibn tammiyyah, we also stand up agaisnt your leader the Saud Fmaily.


 * I dare you to prove WITH CONCRETE and TANGIBLE EVIDENCE that I belong to Wahabis. I belong to a Sunni family which is Sunni for CENTURIES. McKhan

Thirdly, Imam Anawawi IS a sufi, in his book the 30 hadith he proves At-Tasswuf, yes you condem him and call him a blasphemer. Even the propeht sallallahu alyai wa salaam said that the dead can hear us better than the liveing. http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/InDefenseofAtTawassul.htm

All you have done is quote men who have no ijaza what so ever.


 * "Ijaza" (meaning Permission in Enlgish)? from who? From AICP, Al-Ahbash / Habashies or their agents or "scholars"? Nobody is going to seek ANY such permission. WikiPedia is NOT a religious web-site. It is an ENCYCLOPEDIA. STOP sanitizing your religious CULT. McKhan

As i said, go ask the whahabies what they believe, they will tell you Allah has a foot and a smile and a face and a shin bone and he sits on the arsh, this is all kufr and blapshemy and anyone who believes it is a kafir.

McKhans problem with AICP is that we say no, Allah does not have a body and he exists without a place.


 * My problem with AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash is that they are pathlogical liars and misguide people by putting up signboard of "Jama' Ahl Wa Sunnah" on the front of their center and once you are in you find out that you are into a cult which not only openly blasphemes and calls others Kaafirs but also market and preach its mixture of Sunnism, Shiaism and Sufism in the name of Islam / Sunnis. I have SUTUDIED Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP for quite sometime. Nobody has to tell me what Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP belive in because I have met, seen heard what sort of teaching they preach in their centers. McKhan

The whahbies worship a mental image of Allah, and those that do this are blasphemers.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

They also Reject ImamAshari and Ibn Asakir. In the Aqqedah of ibn Asakir is states:

Shaykh Fakhrud-Din Ibn ^Asakir, may Allah have mercy upon him, said:


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

Know, may Allah guide us and you, that it is obligatory upon every accountable person to know that Allah is the only God in His Dominion.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He created the entire world, the upper and lower, the ^Arsh and Kursiyy, the heavens and earth, and what is in them and in between them.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

All the creation is subjugated by His Power. No speck moves except by His will.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He has no manager for the creation with Him, and has no partner in Dominion.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He is attributed with Life and is Qayyum. He is not seized by somnolence or sleep.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He is the One Who knows about the unforeseen and what is evidenced by His creation. Nothing on earth or in heaven is hidden from Him. He knows what is on land and in sea. Not a leaf does fall but He knows about it. There is no grain in the darkness of earth, nor anything which is moist or dry but is inscribed in a clear Book. His Knowledge encompasses everything. He knows the count of all things.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He does whatever He wills. He has the power to do whatever He wills.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

To Him is the Dominion and He needs none; To Him belong the Glory and Everlastingness. To Him are the Ruling and al-Qada' (the Creating). He has the Names of Perfection. No one hinders what He decreed. No one prevents what He gives. He does in His dominion whatever He wills. He rules His creation with whatever He wills. He does not hope for reward and does not fear punishment.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

There is no right on Him that is binding, and no one exercises rule over Him.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

Every endowment from Him is due to His Generosity and every punishment from Him is just. He is not questioned about what He does, but they are questioned.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

He existed before the creation. He does not have a before or an after. He does not have an above or a below, a right or a left, an in front of or a behind, a whole or a part.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

It must not be said: When was He? Or where was He? Or how is He? He existed without a place. He created the universe and willed for the existence of time. He is not bound to time and is not designated with place.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

His management of one matter does not distract Him from another. Delusions do not apply to Him, and He is not encompassed by the mind. He is not conceivable in the mind. He is not imagined in the self nor pictured in delusions. He is not grasped with delusions or thoughts.


 * Irrelevant to WikiPedia guidelines 'coz you are preaching your personal beliefs and trying to sanitize Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP McKhan

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/images/aqida.gif


 * Sources to Refute Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP's claims and propaganda
 * <ul><li>Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context</li>
 * <li>Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs</li>
 * <li>The Habashies Weighted On The Scales of the Sharee'ah (Jurisprudence)</li>
 * <li>A Sufi response to political islamism: Al-ahbash of Lebanon</li>
 * <li>Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs</li></ul> McKhan

This Ayah means: [Nothing is like Him and He is attributed with Hearing and Sight.]


 * I just couldn't care less about Wahabis. This page is about Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies. Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP have divided the word of Allah into two categories: First, word which is not sound or letter. Second, which is the pronounced and written word, which says the word of Allah, but it is in reality composed by Gabrael. And that Allah - the Exalted speaks in everlasting words which have no beginning or end, and are not composed of continuing letters or annunciations which are separated or combined. They believe it to be a self discussion in which God talked within Himself, because in their opinion the words of God are not a language, a letter, or a sound. This is blasphemy because they are twisting and reinterpreting the words of the wholy Quran and YET Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP has got the audacity to call all the mainstream Sunni Muslims "Kafirs" who don't agree with their teachings. McKhan

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Its very simple, we follow the Aqqedah of The Asharis [Ashari is one of the two major scholars of Aqqedah from the time right after the propeht Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa salaam, the other scholar being Maturidi] There is NOTHING like Allah, its a very simple concept. ALlah is not like anyhting, thus, Allah is not like humans, who have a face a smile a hand and a shin bone.

Also, there is a Surah in the Quran, i forget the name, i iwll get it later, where the whahabies state two things, There is an ayyat where yadd is mentioned, and it is refering to one of the prophets alayhi salaam, According to whahabie methodlogy, we must take every describtive ayyat literally. But they interpert Yadd as power in this instance. Later in the surah, there is an Ayyat where Allah is mentioned and the word Yadd is used, but here, they interpert yadd not as pwoer, but as a human hand. [well they say: "a human hand, but not like ours"] this alone is clear blasphemy.


 * The truth of the matter is that You ONLY follow Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi and his "teachings" a mixture of Sunnism, Shiaism and Sufism. Why don't you put on the FRONT signboards of your centers that you follow Abdullah Al-Hararay Al-Habashi? Why don't you? I will see how many mainstream Sunni Muslims will attend your centers. At the surface, Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School in terms of creed. However, at the deep level, their main agenda is to corrupt and misquide the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslims by marketing, preaching and disseminating their own twisted beliefs. McKhan

Secondly, in ibn tmaiyyahs book Aqqedah al-wasityyah [sp?] Ibn tmaiyyah states that this dunya is beginingless, obviously, sence Allah is the only one without a begining, this is also blasphemy.

Thirdly, it is known in history that muhammad ibn abdulwahahab was infected with british ideas, and it is known that muhamma dibn abdulwahahab attacked medinah and mecca killing everyone, and declared them all kafir, he states that he was the only muslim left, and that he was here to 'revive' the religioun. Baseicly, he denied the scholarship as a whole, which is even priased in the Quran, and yet he denied its valitity, sorta like todays modernists. http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/WahhabiyyahFitnatul.htm


 * If Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are READY to put it in bold and clear words on the signboards of their centers that THEY FOLLOW Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi then I have no problem with them. My problem starts when they hide that and their other agenda and let the mainstream Sunni Muslims find out by themselves when its too late. I am also opposed to Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP because, to borrow words from the mainstream Sunni scholars' FATWA - Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs, a). Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam, b). Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18), c). They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel, d). They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i, - and last but not the least - e). They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik. McKhan

The fact that he is opposed to AICP is proof that he is a whahabie, even the shia do not oppose us in this manner, the whahabies are the only active group agaisnt us. And many more good things have been said by me and others in this thread, than mckhan can refute.

Mckhan is baseing our culthood on the fact that we print and sell books?..wtf? Saudi Arabia prints EDITS and chnages interpertations of the translations of the Quran and the hadith books.


 * "wtf"? You just violated the WikiPedia civility guidelines. And this is NOT the first time. And yet you have got the audacity to call yourself a Muslim. McKhan

May Allah destroy the kafirs that hold mecca and medniah and who desicrate the Prophet's sallallahu alayhi wa salaam grave. Ameen.


 * And last but not the least, I dare all of your Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP to PUT in bold and clear words on the signboards of their centers and material that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP follow Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi (for example: Jama' Al-Ahbash - 'coz you are NOT mainstream Sunnis) and STOP using the wording of 'Jama' Ahl Wah Sunnah' and THEN I will see how many mainstream Sunni Muslims walk in to your centers and / or read your material. McKhan

McKhan, i'm going to keep reverting this artcle, again, not becasue i disagree with what is in it, but becasue it is not NPOV compliant, stop hideing behind tearlach, he is not your saviour, and he won't get you into Jannah.

As soon as i find the right admin, i will report this vandalism you have shown. Your pushing your own beleifs onto the artcle by posting your OWN unsoruced comments. tearlach was so earge to write a good NPOV complaint version of the article, he would have said soemhtign abotu this by now.


 * Just to let you know, I started that page to educate people, new muslims and mainstream Sunni youth about the CULT of Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP. And I will continue reverting that page to Tearlach's somewhat NPOV-Compliant version. I don't know who Tearlach is nor I know why he is not responding. All I know that we had our disagreements - but - so far this is the only version which is somewhat NPOV-compliant. Anything less than that IS vandalism. McKhan

The Reality of Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies
Habashies / Al-Ahbash / Ahbash / AICP / TIES / ACL

The Ahbash / Al-Ahbash / Habashies, officially known as the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP), or Jam'iyyat al-Mashari' al-Khayriyya al-Islamiyya which also operates under Jammat Ahl Sunnah in the US and other parts of the world, is one of the most controversial Muslim sect among all the Muslim sects / groups.

On their official web-site, www.aicp.org, they claim to be "The Resounding Voice of Moderation," a claim which is propogated by anti-Islam writers like Daniel Pipes and Jeff Jacoby (See Zionist Connection) on their behalf. However, their critics, a group of Islamic Researchers which includes researchers and scholars like Dr. Muzzamil Siddiqui and Dr. Ahmad Sakr .etc, point out that "They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers."

They further point out that "several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America" despite claims made by some of the followers of Ahbash / Al-Ahbash / Habashies group that they are supported by Al-Azhar.

'''All over the world, they use the signboards / slogans of Ahl As Sunnah wal Jamaat on their centers and materials of propaganda. They call themselves "authentic" Sunnis and they call authentic mainstream Sunnis "Kaafirs."'''

Further, to misguide the mainstream Sunni Muslims, new Muslims and Muslim youth, they are creating web-sites all over the world wide web, running their web-sites as "authentic" mainstream Sunni Muslims and linking on all the Free Forums / Encyclopedias like WikiPedia by using Islamic sounding domain names like:


 * http://www.qiblah.us/
 * http://www.sunna.info
 * http://www.alsunna.org
 * http://mouhammad.org/
 * http://forumislam.com/
 * http://talkaboutislam.com/

(Please, read this article,Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context - http://www.isim.nl/files/Review_15/Review_15-50.pdf - to find out how Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are using the web to hide their agenda and promote their beliefs by posing as "authentic" mainstream Sunnis.)

Since they are not part of Islamic Jurisprudence council, they have formed their own "high" council to issue Fatwas in Australia:


 * http://www.darulfatwa.org.au

"At the surface, Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School in terms of creed. However, at the deep level, their main agenda is to corrupt and misquide the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslims by marketing, preaching and disseminating their own twisted beliefs."

'Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP have divided the word of Allah into two categories: First, word which is not sound or letter. Second, which is the pronounced and written word, which says the word of Allah, but it is in reality composed by Gabrael. And that Allah - the Exalted speaks in everlasting words which have no beginning or end, and are not composed of continuing letters or annunciations which are separated or combined. They believe it to be a self discussion in which God talked within Himself, because in their opinion the words of God are not a language, a letter, or a sound. Moreover:'

a). Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam,

'''b). Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18), c). They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel,'''

d). They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i,

e). They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik.

According to one Fatwa (Religious Decree) issued by Islamonline.net, "they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."

Consequently, they conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

'''3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path."' (Source: "Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs" - IslamOnLine.net - June 07, 2003)''

ZIONISTS CONNECTION

- Faces of American Islam[:Muslim Immigration]

by Daniel Pipes and Khalid Dur?n

Policy Review

August/September 2002


 * http://www.danielpipes.org/article/441

- American Muslims vs. American Jews

by Daniel Pipes

Commentary

May 1999


 * http://www.danielpipes.org/article/312

- Needed: Muslims against Terror[ - and Not Salam Al-Marayati]

by Daniel Pipes

Forward

July 16, 1999


 * http://www.danielpipes.org/article/308

- Hear The Voices of Muslim Moderation

Boston Globe | January 6, 2000

by Jeff Jacoby


 * http://216.247.220.66/jacoby/2000/jj01-07-00.htm

- Anti-Defamation League (ADL)

features Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP)


 * http://www.adl.org/philadelphia/coalition.asp

- Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC)

Islam perverted: The Islamists have got it wrong

by Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi


 * http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2001/2610/essay2610.html

AL-AHBASH / HABASHIES' HISTORY AND BELIEFS

"The Habashies Weighted On The Scales the Sharee'ah"
 * http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/habashi_beliefe.htm

"Al-Ahbash - Their History and Beliefs"
 * http://islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Sects/Habashies/Histor y.htm
 * allaahuakbar.net/habashis/their_history_and_their _beliefs.htm

"Die al-Habash - gewaltfreie Islamisten?" (German)
 * http://www.burks.de/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4561&sid=cb448331af2d244eafd724472b3cf48e

Al-AHBASH / HABASHIES' DEVIATIONS

"Habashis and the Issue of the Qiblah"
 * http://islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Sects/Habashies/Qiblah .htm


 * http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/Deviations.htm#Habashis


 * http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354418 0

- Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs

by Z. Alzamil


 * http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/habasi_history.htm

- Al-Ahbash's Friends and their enemies

by Z. Alzamil


 * allaahuakbar.net/habashis/alhabashis_friends_and_ enemies.htm

- Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context


 * http://www.isim.nl/files/Review_15/Review_15-50.pdf

- A SUFI RESPONSE TO POLITICAL ISLAMISM: AL-AHBASH OF LEBANON

by A. Nizar Hamzeh and R. Hrair Dekmejian

International Journal of Middle East Studies 28 (1996), 217-229


 * http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/al-ahbash.html

PERTINENT FATWAS (RELIGIOUS DECREES) ABOUT Al-AHBASH / HABASHIES / AICP

"Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs"


 * http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354418 0

"Casting Aspersions on Erudite Scholars"


 * http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?h FatwaID=81754

"Differences among the Companions: Islamic Approach"


 * http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?h FatwaID=81831

AL-AHBASH / HABASHIES' SOURCE OF FUNDING

- The Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) in North America and Europe

- Islamic Charity Projects Association (ICPA) in Australia

- Italian Muslim Assembly (AMI) in Italy


 * http://www.aicp.org
 * http://www.aicpmultimedia.org
 * http://www.aicp.de/
 * http://www.aicp.ca/
 * http://www.icpa.org.au/
 * http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au
 * http://www.spearssports.org.au
 * http://www.amislam.com/

AL-AHBASH / AICP / HABASHIES' SCHOOLS + CENTERS

Schools (International)


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/Schools.htm

The Islamic Education School (T.I.E.S.)- Anaheim, California, USA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/TIES_Anaheim_CA_USA.htm

The Islamic Education School (T.I.E.S.)- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/TIES_Philadelphia_PA_USA.htm

The Islamic Education School (T.I.E.S.)- Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/TIES_Ft_Lauderdale_FL_USA.htm

Al-Furqan Islamic Foundation - Bellevue, Washington, USA


 * http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/Deviations.htm#Habashis

An-Nur Islamic School - Revere, Massachusetts, USA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/TIES_Revere_MA_USA.htm

Al Amanah College, Bankstown & Liverpool Campuses, AUSTRALIA


 * http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au

Al-Hidayah School, New Westminster, British Columbia, CANADA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/CentersWorldwide.htm

Cultural Academy of Laval - Academie Culturelle de Laval (ACL), Montreal, Quebec, CANADA


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/TIES_Montreal_Quebec_Canada.htm

AL-AHBASH / AICP / HABASHIES' FREE "ISLAMIC" CLASSES

- Anaheim, California, USA

- Houston, Texas, USA

- Memphis, Tennessee, USA

- Miami, Florida, USA

- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

- Philadelphia, PA, USA

- Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

http://www.aicp.org/About/Table%20of%20Events.htm#AnaheimCaliforniaUSA

AL-AHBASH / AICP / HABASHIES' CHATROOMS

'THE CALL OF KNOWLEDGE' (Paltalk - Arabic Chatroom)


 * http://www.aicpmultimedia.org/html/chat.html

'THE LIGHT OF ISLAM' (Paltalk - English Chatroom)


 * http://www.aicp.org/About/PaltalkInstructions.htm

Al-AHBASH / HABASHIES' OWNED WEB-SITES


 * http://www.sunna.info
 * http://www.qiblah.us/
 * http://talkaboutislam.com/
 * http://forumislam.com/
 * http://mouhammad.org/
 * http://www.aicp.de/
 * http://www.aicp.ca/
 * http://www.icpa.org.au/
 * http://www.spearssports.org.au/
 * http://www.amislam.com/
 * http://www.alsunna.org
 * http://www.aicp.org
 * http://www.aicpmultimedia.org
 * http://habashies.blogspot.com
 * http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au
 * http://al-ahbash.org
 * http://truesalafi.com
 * http://Mouhammad.org
 * http://asha3ira.com
 * http://maturidi.com
 * http://jawaaher.com
 * http://forumislam.com
 * http://safeena.org

You failed to state that these are known Whahabie websites. And that there is no official authority of sunni islam in saudi arabia. Also, could you state the ijaza ofthe men who have made 'fatwas' agaisnt us? Before one is allowed to give religious fatwas, he must be given ijaza by the shiekh who taught him, and even in some cases, he msut have a solid chain of sheikhs leading up to the propeht sallalahu alayahi wa salaam, please, you must state the qualifications of those that give fatwas, so as not to confuse people or tricking them into thing such and such person is a valid mujatahid or mufti. -cronodevir

Are these web-sites owned by "Wahabis" or Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP?


 * http://www.sunna.info
 * http://www.qiblah.us/
 * http://talkaboutislam.com/
 * http://forumislam.com/
 * http://mouhammad.org/
 * http://www.aicp.de/
 * http://www.aicp.ca/
 * http://www.icpa.org.au/
 * http://www.spearssports.org.au/
 * http://www.amislam.com/
 * http://www.alsunna.org
 * http://www.aicp.org
 * http://www.aicpmultimedia.org
 * http://habashies.blogspot.com
 * http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au
 * http://al-ahbash.org
 * http://truesalafi.com
 * http://Mouhammad.org
 * http://asha3ira.com
 * http://maturidi.com
 * http://jawaaher.com
 * http://forumislam.com
 * http://safeena.org

All the above domain names, owned and / or run by Habashies / AICP / Al-Ahbash, tell us about the Hedious agenda of Habashies / AICP / Al-Ahbash to blend-in among the mainstream Sunnis. ANF If someone dares to disagree with them either that individual is a "Wahabi" or "Kaafir."

The good news IS that this is NOT AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash platform. It is about what Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies or mainstream Sunnis are saying about THEMSELVES. It is about NEUTRAL / ACADEMIC POINT OF VIEW.

Tearlach is NOT a spokesperson for Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies nor for the mainstream Sunnis. He / She IS a NEUTRAL party.

McKhan

McKhan is vandalizeing
Firstly, i would like to say that i am a part of AICP, yet all the changes i make are reverted by peopole who are NOT from aicp.

Here is what i don't get. HOw the FUCK is Mckhan or a non-muslim even, a better auhtroity on AICP than someone who is actually IN aicp?

Why the hell would i ask an asian to write an article on europe? Common sense tells you that if you want an article about europe, then you would go to a ueropean FFS!

Haveing someone write an article they know nothing about is stupid. I'm in aicp, i know what is taught, and i can tell you what we teach, and i can tell you we DON'T mix beleifs with other sects, and we don't teach shiism, in fact alot fo what we say is jsut as much anti shia than it is anti whahabie.

My point is, if there is ANYONE suited for the job of writeing an article, it would be someone who has soemhtign to do with the article in the first place.

Me telling you what we teach isn't a biased view, it is the correct view, becasue i'm telling you what we teach, why the hell would i lie about the very thing i am trying to uphold?

Why the hell would steven king write a book, then go out and tell people it isn't his work?

WTF is that? "We can't use information on AICP website for the article about AICP becasue its biased" what the hell is that? Are you going to tell me you can't use information from google.com to wirte an article about google.com? Also note, that none of the information on aicp is copyrighted, its under no lisences what so ever. And it wouldn't matter anyhow, sence the website isn't even in ameirca or europe.

I am getting tired of people telling a scientist that he doesn't know anythign about the science he is in. [an anaology]

IMHO the best way to have the article is to firstly cite information on the article, from the soruces obviously. if i want to write an article about yahoo.com, obviously, i'm going to use information i got...believe it or not....from yahoo.com.

The article should contain what AICP says, becasue what AICP says is, obviously, what AICP is, if anyone has objections to this view, we can start a subsection in the article with other point of views.

But this McKhan guy who is NOT in aicp, is trying to tell ME who is in aicp, what aicp teaches, it's very illogical. Especially when he used NONE of the aicp texts to try and refute me, if you will ntoice,ALL of his soruces say "aicp says this aicp says that" yet he doesn't have ! book or text that is actually FROM aicp, that says what he claimes. He has all this 'proof' against us, yet he can't provide a single quote from OUR aicp books that says what he claimes. Obviosuly, McKhan doesn't know how to debate, snece he cannot adqutly provide proof that we say or claime what he says we do.

Mckhans argument is absicly this "AICP teaches shia beleifs becase this scholar who is not in aicp and who admits to being a salafi and not a sunni, says so."

That is like asking a jew to write a biography on Jesus.

I don't care if McKhan wants hiw opinion psoted on the article, but he WILL make it CLEAR that it is HIS opinion, and NOT a fact.

As for tearlach, his version is incorrect ebacsue there are many major claimes that are uncited, and have absolutly no link or footnote stateing that the 'proof' is in the external links. -cronodevir

McKhan is simply following the WikiPedia NPOV Guidlines
I never started this reversion war. I told you from the day first, when you started vandalising this page after failed attempts to creat a page on Abdullah_al-Harariyy, that this version has been agreed upon and written by a NEUTRAL party, Tearlach. Though, I, as a mainstream Sunni who have studied the Habashies / AICP / Al-Ahbash for quite sometime and know about them in-depth, have had my disagreements with Tearlach but I am content with this somewhat NPOV-compliant version.

This page is NOT about what Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies - or - mainstream Sunnis are saying about each other. It is about NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW which Tearlach's version has achieved somewhat. It will be unfair to say that he didn't quote the sources as he did. He / She only used INDEPENDENT / ACADEMIC sources and did his / her own research.

McKhan

POV). It is NOT about what AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies - or - mainstream Sunnis like to have on that page. It IS about INDEPENDENT / ACADEMIC / NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. And Tearlach's version is somewhat WikePedia NPOV Guidelines compliant and that IS the MOST RELEVANT thing in this whole matter. McKhan

"is somewhat WikePedia NPOV Guidelines compliant" you even admit it isn't NPOV, thus proveing that there are statements which do not follow NPOV guidelines, there are actually 20 or so incorrect statements abotu the group. I am only dealing with 2 right now. The two statements i am tlkaing about, indirectly imply that all AICP people are kafirs. Which is the exact POV McKhan wants the article to show. Way to go wikipedia for calling a major religious group kafirs.


 * Well, It has NOTHING TO DO with McKhan's personal opinions. Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies call all those individuals "Kaafirs" and "non-Muslims" and "Wahabis" who disagree with their beliefs. It is all about WikiPedia NPOV guidelines. It is NOT an AICP platfrom. It is an ENCYCLOPEDIA. McKhan

If it was all about guidelines, you wouldn't be here debateing wether "and other ehretical beleifs" and "they mix shism with sunnis" are cited or not, when the clear and obivous fact is that they ARN"T sourced, there is no source pointing to these claimes, they are jsut utterly random statements put in the article by you, which i might add were both acts fo vandalism, if you had posted soruces for these statements, the article would meet NPOV guidelines, but sence these statements are not cited. They are POV, and according to you, this is wikis POV. Crono 23:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto! - You keep recycling the same "objections" over and over again. All of your "objections" have been DISCUSSED on this very page. The sources, INDEPENDENT, NEUTRAL and ACADEMIC, are right THERE on that page. Fairly and impartially speaking, Tearlach has given AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies quite favorable POV by providing a). an external link to Al-Ahbash / Habashies' arch web-site and to another contrary link b). quoted your BOGUS and OXYMORONIC claim that AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies advocates pluralism, and opposition to political activism and violence (There is ample material available over the internet to refute both claims. Here is a write-up + Associated Press photograph (Member of Al-Ahbash brandishing clubs and knives) as an example) - and - c). quoted AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' FRADULENT slogan from their own web-site, "the resounding voice of moderation" (Says who? AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies by themselves?). AND yet you have got the audacity to claim that Tearlach's version is NOT good / favorable enough for the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP ? Your ultimate goal IS to sanitize Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies to hide your agenda to blend-in among mainstream Sunni Muslims on each and every platfrom. Thats why people like you pop-up, on the behalf of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies, after every few weeks to rant and rave and complain about this page - and - simply IGNORE all the TANGIBLE / NEUTRAL / INDEPENDENT / ACADEMIC sources because they don't "represent" the - DESIRED - AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' "POV." Perhaps, you don't appreicate the fact that if I will write that page according to my wishes, that page will NOT be somewhat NEUTRAL like the way it is NOW and same goes for you. AND I told you in the very beginning that - when two parties don't see each other eye to eye then only an INDEPENDENT / NEUTRAL party can do the job. Tearlach's version doesn't only serve the purpose but also meets the WikiPedia guidelines. Once again, let me remind you that it is an ENCYCLOPEDIA which aspires to maintain NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. It is NOT mainstream Sunnis' or Habashies' platform. McKhan

It still does not change the fact that the page is not NPOV. Secondly. "TANGIBLE / NEUTRAL / INDEPENDENT / ACADEMIC sources" according to whom? You?. Also. "when two parties don't see each other eye to eye then only an INDEPENDENT / NEUTRAL party can do the job." What two parties? AICP is 1 group with oen set of goals. There is no division amoung themselves about what they teach. Thus there is no arguement or debate going on. Sence we know what they teach and what thier goals are. I a member of AICP, have been trying to make the article TRUTHFUL about what we say, who are YOU to tell ME what WE say? Your not even in the group. There is no debate. There is only me trying to make the article truthful and NPOV [truth..is not a point of view] If there was an article on why 1+1=2, it is clear there should be no debate about it. Me being a memebr of AICP, am telling you wqhat we teach, but you, not being a memebr, are trying to tell us what we teach?..and you want to tlak about logic? When you speak on behalf of a group to whom you have NO link to? You, shouldn't even be posting anyhting, sence you are obviosuly not AICP, you are not fit to tell the readers what AICP is. Sence tearlach is not AICP, he is not fit to tell people what AICP is. The ONLY people fit to tell you what aicp is are the people who are IN aicp. DER DER DER! Use common sense. Again, all of your 'proofs' are from random uncreditable men whom do not have any ijaza from any sheikh to give fatwas on any subject. You seen aicp member with knives and guns? LOL!, i have seen whahabies blow the shit out of ameircan and british buildings..and you want to get mad beacsue an aicp member had a knife? get a fucking life man. What AICP teaches is not soemthign that is up for 'debate' AICP is here today, they can tell you what they teach. We do not need some forigner to tell everyone else what we teach. Again. i ask, who are you, and what is your status and credability, to edit an article you have no business editing? And please, stop trying to use big words that have no relevence to this subject, you have not posted a single academicly crediable soruce yet. NOR have you posted a single neutral soruce. Tangible?..How is it tangible that someone who is not from ACIP, possibly teach otehrs what AICP says? Why do people have to read YOUR POV on what aicp teaches? Why not jsut ask us? My point being, this article is about AICP, thus only people who are linked with aicp should be able to speak for AICP. Just like if there was an article on molucular biology, a phsyics professor has no business trying to speak for the molecular biology community. Learn your place McKhan, it is not a representative of AICP. Crono 05:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Congratulations! Once again, you have proven the fact that you cannot have a rational dialogue without resorting to language like "get a fucking life man" and ebonics like "from random uncreditable men whom do not have any ijaza from any sheikh to give fatwas" .etc. Nobody is going to seek "Ijaza" (permission) from any AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' "Shekikh." By using such tactics you are simply violating the WikiPedia civility guidelines. I just couldn't care less what Wahabis do and don't. All I know that I belong to a family which is mainstream Sunni for centuries and Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are just a "new-born" CULT which is trying its best to hide its agenda and beliefs to blend-in among mainstream Sunnis. Under this pretext and context, Tearlach's version serves the WikiPedia-NPOV guidelines. McKhan

Seeking ijaza is not ebonics. McKhan, belittleing the religioun is blasphemy, watch yourself. One is REQUIRED to seek ijaza from a creditable SUNNI scholar. Every website you have posted is admitily whahabie or 'salafi'. Why could you care elss what your family does? Why are you hideing the fact that your a whahabies, EVERY claime you have emntioned today is mentioned ONLY by whahabies and thier misguidence. Stop lieing McKhan, its a major sin. No one has to seek ijaza from aicp. they HAVE to seek ijaza from a creditable sunni scholar, that of which you know nothing about, proof by your psoting incoherint crap from these whahabie websites. Also, you yourself said tearlach's version isn't NPOV compliant...jsut they way you WANTED it to be. That is why your fighting in this debate, beacsue you want the artticle to stay exactly the same, becasue it makes AICP look bad, and becasue you KNOW it isn't NPOV, as you have pointed out. Watchign you debate on is like watching a animal run from the butcher. Crono 12:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Once again, here what I wrote, "FATWA has been issued by the mainstream SUNNI scholars, which includes but NOT limited to, MAINSTREAM Sunni scholars like Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr (founding member and president of the Muslim Students Association of the U.S.A and Canada - AND - the Islamic Society of North America (or ISNA) and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi (former President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). What sort of other MAINSTREAM Sunni SCHOLARS do we need to prove the fact that Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP are NOT, I repeat NOT, among the mainstream SUNNI Muslims but a religious CULT." Quit telling me what is "blasphemous" and what is NOT. At least, I don't follow that CULT which claims to be "Sunni" and then divides the word of Allah into two categories: First, word which is not sound or letter. Second, which is the pronounced and written word, which says the word of Allah, but it is in reality composed by Gabrael. And that Allah - the Exalted speaks in everlasting words which have no beginning or end, and are not composed of continuing letters or annunciations which are separated or combined. They believe it to be a self discussion in which God talked within Himself, because in their opinion the words of God are not a language, a letter, or a sound. This IS the biggest blasphemy because they are twisting and reinterpreting the words of the wholy Quran and YET Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP has got the audacity to call all the mainstream Sunni Muslims "Kafirs" who don't agree with their teachings. And last but not the least, If Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are READY to put it in bold and clear words on the signboards of their centers that THEY FOLLOW Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi then I have no problem with them. My problem starts when they hide that and their other agenda and let the mainstream Sunni Muslims find out by themselves when its too late. I am also opposed to Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP because, to borrow words from the mainstream Sunni scholars' FATWA - Al-Ahbash: Their History and Their Beliefs, a). Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam, b). Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18), c). They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel, d). They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i, - and last but not the least - e). They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik. Tearlach's version serves the purpose to meet the WikiPedia NPOV guidelines. McKhan

Again, you quote MEN, what are there qualifications?..jsut becasue the man is head of an 'islamic' group doesn't make him a scholar. Abdullah Harriy has a solid and trusted chain of teachers all the way to the propeht sallahu alayhi wa salaam, who do your men have?..a peice of paper from medinah saying "They are scholars"?. Secondly, to say attributed created things [sound, vocalizations, letters] to Allah is tashbih. And you are comiting it. Allah is nto related to any CREATED things, vocalizations are created things, letters and words are created things. Allah is not attributed with the creation. your attributeing created attributes to Allah. THAT is blasphemy. Your saying Allah speaks like we do, which implies that Allah is similar to us. THIS IS BLASPHEMY. by sayign Allah speaks like we do, you are likeining him to the creation, and makeing tashbih. The clause "not like ours" or "not like we do" does not clear the statement from, blasphemy. to say "Allah has a hand, but not like ours" Your makeing tashbih becasue your attributeing a created thing 'hand' AND your giveing a similarity. These things are tashbih. Of course, alot of this is dealing with translated things. for instance, with Yadd. We don't deny that Allah has yadd. we do deny that Allah has a hand. yadd, does not only mean "hand". but when a leyman translates it to say 'hand' you get all kinds of problems. In the end, saying Allah speaks like we do is tashbih. also, we do NOt claime that ethe messenegrs were sent with no purpose, i garantee you you will nto find anyhting even liek this in OUR [acip] books. Me, being in aicp, was taught that EVERYTHING in existances has a purpose and a reason. I can ask ym sheikh now and he would tell me that. So that claime is incorrect anyways. Also, the are sahih ahdith PROVEING that tawwasul is halal, even mainstream sunni scholars say this. The very men you quote admit tawwasul. Next claim? Faith must be reflected in action? Ok. according to you, if one has no legs, they cnanot stand in prayer, and thus they are akfirs becasue they didn't pray. See how illogical this is? Not everyone is ABLE to do the actions. YOU are condeming every single person who doesn't do every single act of worship. You have just labeled the entire ummah kafirs. According to your methodlogy. {which is btw, the same claim made by Muhammad ibn abdulwahahab, the leader of the whahabie movement.}Crono 00:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So, you are admitting that there are substantial and fundamental differences between AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' beliefs AND mainstream Sunnis' beliefs. I am sure you didn't bother to find out that Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr (founding member and president of the Muslim Students Association of the U.S.A and Canada - AND - the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi (former President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) are both Ph.D holder well-known mainstream Sunni scholars and therefore represent the mainstream Sunnis - NOR - you noticed that all the lines which I have been quoting about Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are from the FATWA issued by the GROUP of mainstream Sunni scholars. In response to your line "i garantee you you will nto find anyhting even liek this in OUR [acip] books," - ONCE AGAIN, I will borrow the words from that FATWA which reads: "In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect." Just to let you know that Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi are NOT based in Saudi Arabia but in North America and ISNA is the biggest mainstream Sunnis' organization in North America. Of course, Your above lines proves the FACT, once again, that Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are NOT mainstream Sunnis but a CULT which hides it agenda and beliefs to blend-in among mainstream Sunnis. Consequently, Tearlach's version remains to be meeting the WikiPedia NPOV guidelines in due course. McKhan

Lol, this is funny, FIRST off, what you claime is not in ANY AICP books, NOR is it taught by ANY aicp sheikhs, NOR can you quote any of these claism from any of the AICP sheikhs....yet this is whatw e say? Your the one who is being rediculious "They don't say this in any of thier books, nor do they teach this, but this is what they REALLY mean" WTF? you are basicly saying that we teach what we don't teach. Also, Ph.D is not a valid qualification of giveing a fatwa. There is only ONE way of getting qualification for give a fatwa, and that is the way of the Sunnah, which is to seek ijaza from thier shiekh. You expect me to believe what soem guy from an amiercan university says about islam? I beg to differ. you are very strange, first you amke claimes about us, yet you cannot even prove we say them. And then you quote from western apologist 'shcolars' who have no qualifications over anything. Why not just quite the bullshit? We don't say what you claim, nor do we teach it, why don't you get a clue and realize WE DON"T BELIEVE THOSE CLAIMES? How can you jsut rnadomly attribute stuff to us which we have never even said? Nor have we ever taught. Nor can you prove that any of those claims came from us. Yet your saying this is what we say. I do hope the admins see this fallacy McKhan is proveing to have...."They don't teach it, nor is it in any of thier books, nor do thier shikhs say this, but this is what they REALLY mean." oh my God, you are a funny character. Yep, we teach sunni views, like McKhan said, so that we can get more followers. "Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers." We teach sunni islam to attract followers, then when your a follower, we apparently still teach sunni islam, then after you have been with us, apparently, we still teahc sunni islam. But we really teach other things, and not sunni islam" Um? this is what you call an oxymoron. How can you in one line admit we teach sunni beleifs, then in the next say we don't? How is it possiable that ever single book and sheikh from aicp, teache saunthtic sunni islam, as you have said. yet teahc msiguidence at the same time? "None of this books say it" Uh, no shit? Maby that is becasue we don't say it period? Get a clue. I should submit this ti bash.org Yep, lol, everyone, we teach sunni islam, we believe sunni islam, but we really have diffrent teqachings than sunni islam, but we don't want you to know. Yes, we lie about our own belief. LOLOL! the bottom line is, we don't teach what McKhan claims, even McKhan said so himself. Yet somehow, after not ever sayign or etachign what he claims, he believe this is what we say. That is like if i was a white guy, and i had a friend who was black, McKhan would be that guy that coems up and says "But you really hate him despite what you say, i know you hate him" Crono 12:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Now you are psycho-babbling. From the very start, I have been simply quoting what the EXPERTS / Mainstream Sunni Scholars say. Even Tearlach used INDEPENDENT / NEUTRAL / ACADEMIC sources. I am NOT quoting ANY heresay. Whether you like it or don't like it, the bottom line IS that Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are NOT mainstream Sunnis and a single search on the Google can corroborate that. So, no matter how many "WTF" you use or how much psycho-babbling or sanitizing you do... The fact remains the same: Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP is a CULT which hides its beliefs and agenda to blend-in among mainstream Sunnis. You have admitted that there are substantial and fundamental differences between mainstream Sunnis and Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP's beliefs. In the meantime, Tearlach's version continues to meet the WikiPedia NPOV guidelines. McKhan

What shcoalrs have you quoited? i ahve seen none. Secondly, i find ti funny every time your defeated in battle, you always come up or invent a new word to some how counter it, such as the word "psycho-babbling". Secondly, how do you "hide the beliefs you teach"? If i am teaching them, i'm not hideing them am i? Your arguement fails in simple logic. First, you give your claims, and then i ask you to provide proof that we said those claims, and you say 'we are hideing it"...i'm sorry, but this isn't the situation, the situation is You are makeing claimes, based off nothing, you said it yourself that we don't say the things you claime we do, but we 'secretly say the things you say we do', secretly? what in the hell are you talking about? I can contact sheikh abdullah if i wanted to and i garantee he would not agree with the things you claime he agrres with. The simply point is, and you yourself have proven this, is your makeing claimes based off hearsay. PLEASE PROVIDE A SOURCE FROM AICP THAT STATES ANY OF THE CLAIMES YOU MADE. Quote one of our books or shcolars. The fact that you said we don't say those things, proves that your claimes that we DO say them is based off nothing, as you have no evidence to rpove it. "AICP says this, becasue 'mainstream sunni' shcolars said so, and sence AICP hides its beleifs, we have no rpoof they say this" That is your arguement, point blank. In the end, there is no proof from AICP soruces that implies we teahc shia or ehretical beleifs, and McKhan has proven this. McKhan, your contradicting yourself in the same sentence. "They teach this, but they don't teach it"


 * Any mainstream Sunni knows that Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr (founding member and president of the Muslim Students Association of the U.S.A and Canada - AND - the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi (former President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) are bona-fide mainstream SUNNI scholars. I knew it that eventually you will hit to this stage of asking me for "proof." Nobody is ever going to quote ANYTHING from Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP's write-ups as "proof." Since I have been quoting FATWA issued by the GROUP of mainstream Sunni scholars, any "demand" for proof should be redirected to the same group of mainstream Sunni scholars. May be, you are taking as a "battle" and therefore "deafeat" or "winning" is on your mind. To me, It is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis - and - the cult of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP. And the more you write to "sanitize" Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP, the more you corroborate that DIFFERENCE. McKhan

a). Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam.

Ok? And? Can you prove otherwise?


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

b). Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18)

firslty, the dead do not 'get out of their graves' can you please point out from whcih book belinging to AICP said 'the dead get out of their graves'? Where did we say this? Or is that another hearsay? Secondly. The propeht sallaahu alayhi wa salaam said the dead can hear better than the livieng, and there are ahdith which are sahih which mention people askign the prophet sallahau alayahi wa salaam for help before and AFTER his death. http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/InDefenseofAtTawassul.htm Also, can you point out from which book or scholar mentioned "seeking help from the dead instead of Allah"? Where did we say this?


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

c). They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel.

Attributeing vocals and language to Allah is tashbih.


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

d). They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i, 

Proof?


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

- and last but not the least - e). They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik.

Where did we say this? Quote your soruce please.

You must back all your claimes of with proof.


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

Crono 23:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Since you are on the streak of "refuting" a FATWA issued by the Ph.D holder mainstream Sunni scholars, I would like to repeat my Sixty Million Dollar questions which are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are in fact mainstream Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:


 * *http://www.sunna.info
 * *http://www.qiblah.us/
 * *http://talkaboutislam.com/
 * *http://forumislam.com/
 * *http://mouhammad.org/
 * *http://truesalafi.com
 * *http://Mouhammad.org
 * *http://asha3ira.com
 * *http://maturidi.com
 * *http://jawaaher.com
 * *http://forumislam.com
 * *http://safeena.org


 * *Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites like IslamOnline.net .etc?


 * *Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?


 * *Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics? After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?


 * *Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees (FATWAs) to warn people against them?


 * *Why is there a connection between the Zionists and the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP ?


 * *Why don't Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP pray in the same direction as the mainstream Sunnis in North America? Is it about truly scientific reasons or to promote SEDITION?


 * and so on and so forth......


 * And don't forget it is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis and the CULT of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP. If your AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies are so proud of themselves then I dare them to STOP using the signboards of Jamat Ahl Wa Sunna all over the world on their centers and materials and then I will see how many mainstream Sunnis walk into their centers. In North America, Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies don't even pray in the same direction as of mainstream Sunnis. And last but NOT the least, learn how to Google about Habashies. It may open up your eyes. In the fervor of "rescuing" and "sanitizing" your Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP group, don't forget that WikiPedia is NOT a religious platform. It is a platform which aspires to maintain NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. And Tearlach's version so far remains to be meeting the WikiPedia NPOV Guidelines. McKhan

You still didn't answer my questions, prove we said what you say we do. Untill you do, i will treat everyhting you say as illrelevent incoherint garbage. I am threw with this game. either prove AICP said what you say we did. Or shush. You quoteing nothing but hearsay again. With not a single shred of rpoof. yes, 'scholars' need proof too. Crono 06:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

It is a major sin to speak without knowlage McKhan, as you have proven you cannot provide daleel that we said most of those claimes. You have also proven you are only blindly following what your 'scholars' tell you. You do not do any research yourself. Scholars must also provide proof for what they say. No one is clear of that requirement. Crono 12:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto! You think that it IS a religious "discussion" and I am here to "prove" something. As I already mentioned, to me, it is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis and the CULT of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies. And so far, you are helping me to corroborate that DIFFERENCE by establishing the fact that you know nothing about mainstream Sunnis' beliefs. In my humble and logical point of view, Denying the totality of the Quran and calling it mere the conversation of Gabriel and / or twisting its meaning is THE BIGGEST SIN in Islam. Go and Figure. You are more than welcome to Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar for any sort of "evidence" or "prrof." From the very start, you have been intentionally IGNORING, like rest of the agents / followers and sympthaizers of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies, all the sources which are provided through out this very page - and - on the various search engines like Google and Yahoo about Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP. You INSIST, like rest of the agents / followers and sympthaizers of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies, that ONLY the AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' endorsed sources are "authentic," "truthful" and rest of the sources are either "Wahabi" sources or "they follow their scholars blindly." You even criticized the NEUTRAL / ACADEMIC sources quoted by Tearlach. These are old AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' tactics which they have used and continue to use over and over again in their defense. If you think that group of mainstream Sunni scholars issued their FATWA - or - in Australia, 36 Muslims organizations issued their statement (Representatives of 36 Muslim organisations have signed a decree which rejects al-Ahbash, also known as the Islamic Charitable Projects Association. The decree describes al-Ahbash of holding "deviant and perverse views" and taking part in "extremist and fanatical" behaviour. The statement is signed by key Islamic leaders, including Australian Federation of Islamic Councils president Ameer Ali and the imam (leader) of Sydney's Lakemba Mosque, Sheik Taj el-Din Al Hilaly. "The behaviour and practices of the Ahbash are based on creating division and hatred amongst people," the statement said. "This does not serve the interest of the Muslim community and is directly at odds with the general policies of Australia's multicultural society.") without any shred of evidence or knowledge then I am sorry but you are way off the sanity and rationality line. You insist someone to baby-sit you. Nobody is going to do that. Let me remind you that to me, It is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis - and - the cult of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP - and - that WikiPedia is a platform which aspires to maintain NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. And, therefore, Tearlach's version so far remains to be meeting the WikiPedia NPOV Guidelines. McKhan


 * And once again, Since you are on the roller-coaster of "refuting" a FATWA issued by the Ph.D holder mainstream Sunni scholars and outcasting all the mainstream Sunnis by saying that "they follow their scholars blindly," I would like to reiterate my simple questions which are: that IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are in fact mainstream Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:


 * *http://www.sunna.info
 * *http://www.qiblah.us/
 * *http://talkaboutislam.com/
 * *http://forumislam.com/
 * *http://mouhammad.org/
 * *http://truesalafi.com
 * *http://Mouhammad.org
 * *http://asha3ira.com
 * *http://maturidi.com
 * *http://jawaaher.com
 * *http://forumislam.com
 * *http://safeena.org


 * *Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites like IslamOnline.net .etc?


 * *Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?


 * *Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics? After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?


 * *Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees (FATWAs) to warn people against them?


 * *Why is there a connection between the Zionists and the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP ?


 * *Why don't Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP pray in the same direction as the mainstream Sunnis in North America? Is it about truly scientific reasons or to promote SEDITION?


 * and so on and so forth......


 * McKhan

Proof we said everyhting you say we did. please. The letters and words in the Quran is the expression of thew eternal kalaam of Allah, the phsyical created paper, and language is NOT eternal. You are saying that when i pick up a Quran, it is phsyicly the Kalaam of Allah. And it isn't, it is the expressions of the kalaam of allah which was revealed to the propeht salallahu alayhi wa salaam through angel jibril amin. The book itself isn't eternal, there is a last page, and there is a first page.


 * So, you are admitting, ONCE AGAIN, that Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies are NOT mainstream Sunnis but a CULT. If you would like to demonstrate your "religious" knowledge then please feel welcome to Ask a mainstream Sunni scholar. Make sure that you MUST quote that you belong to the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) / Habashies / Al-Ahbash group. McKhan

IslamOnline.net is a Whahabie website, not a muslim website.


 * Oh, YES! IslamOnLine.net is a "Wahabi" website, though it is out Qatar, and ALL those web-sites, based in various parts of the world, which are refuting and disclosing the AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies as a CULT / SECT are ALSO - either - "Wahabi" web-sites - or - "they follow their scholars blindly." I am sorry but your arguement doesn't fit the logic.

Why do we need to build masjids? I don't know dumbass, maby to PRAY?


 * Once again, you are in the violation of WikiPedia civility guidelines by resorting to profanity like "dumbass." If AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies claim to be mainstream Sunnis - then - Why can't they pray / preach with / to mainstream Sunnis in THEIR mosques? After all, Don't they claim to be mainstream Sunnis? May I state one of the FEW reasons. Becasue they will be - and - have been KICKED OUT as soon as it is discovered that they belong to a CULT called AICP / Al-Ahbash / AICP.

Why does isna manufactor and sell thier own books aswell? Also, Becasue ISNA, the whahabist/modernist movement, is not mainstrem sunnism. [ISNA has mixed elements from both extremes. But that is another discussion.]

Why are there fatwas warning against ISNA?


 * After "trashing" IslamOnLine.net and all the other "Wahabi" websites in your mind - now you are going to "bombard" ISNA? Good luck. I have NOTHING to do with ISNA. I just pointed out, for the sake of clarity, that the GROUP of mainstream Sunni scholars who issued FATWA against the AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies also include mainstream Sunni scholars like Dr. Ahmad H. Sakr (founding member and president of the Muslim Students Association of the U.S.A and Canada - AND - the Islamic Society of North America (or ISNA) and Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi (former President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). Nothing more and nothing less. May be, one day, when you will snap out of "AICP/Al-Ahbash/Habashies" trance, it will be DAWNED on you that IslamOnLine.net and ISNA belong to mainstream Sunnis and they don't DECEIVE people like the AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies by hiding behind the slogan of Jamat Ahl Wa Sunnah nor they "create" their own "high" councils to seek legitimacy.

AICP openly opposes Zionism, you dolt.


 * How ironic that yet there IS a connection between the Zionists and the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP.

Becasue the Kabah is EES from here, not NE.


 * I know very well where the Kaaba is and I am also well-aware of the arguments from the both sides. BUT AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies don't pray to the Kaaba for scientific reasons. They pray to promote SEDITION and that's a fact which I learned first-hand by interacting with Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies along-with other things.

The propeht SAWS didn't have a PHD. The sahabah didn't have a PHD, infact, NONE of the classical scholars ahd PHD. Obviously, a PHD means utter shit when it coems to your qualifications. And where did he get a PHD, in a western university? Or from teh whahabies in saudi arabia?


 * Thanks for clearing up the doubt that AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies are, in fact, stuck in the DARK AGES therefore they believe, nowadays (in this 21st century), "PHD means utter shit." Please, advise your folks to REMOVE the BOGUS slogan of "The Resounding Voice of Moderation" as soon as possible. You are going way too far off the insanity and rationality line NOW by comparing your pathetic "Shekih" to Prophets. Go and get a life.

Why does ISNA, invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching?


 * This is a very good question for ISNA. Why don't you get in-touch with them? I am sure they will get back to you when they will have time. (NOTE: Please, ASK them - Why don't they put Jamat Ahl Wa Sunna on their Centers / Material like Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies do?)

Also, can you bring proof that we say that the prophets came without a purpose? and that we teach shia beleifs? You have not quoted a single line form any AICP book claimeing the things you say we do.


 * Since I have been quoting FATWA issued by the GROUP of mainstream Sunni scholars, any "demand" for proof should be redirected to the same group of mainstream Sunni scholars.


 * And last but not the least, thank you very much for HIGHLIGHTING / EXPOSING / DISCLOSING the SUBSTANTIAL and FUNDAMENTAL differences between the beliefs of mainstream Sunnis and the CULT of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies on this page for everybody. Just don't forget that, to me, it is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis - and - the cult of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP - and - that WikiPedia is a NON-RELIGIOUS platform which aspires to maintain NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. And, therefore, Tearlach's version so far remains to be meeting the WikiPedia NPOV Guidelines. McKhan


 * Since I am NOT satisfied with your "answers" to SOME of my questions, I will take the liberty to reiterate my simple questions for you:


 * IF Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are in fact mainstream Sunnis and they don't have any MAJOR conflict with mainsteam Sunnis then why on the earth they need to invest, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's teaching in the name of Islam by using "Islamic" sounded web-sites like:


 * *http://www.sunna.info
 * *http://www.qiblah.us/
 * *http://talkaboutislam.com/
 * *http://forumislam.com/
 * *http://mouhammad.org/
 * *http://truesalafi.com
 * *http://Mouhammad.org
 * *http://asha3ira.com
 * *http://maturidi.com
 * *http://jawaaher.com
 * *http://forumislam.com
 * *http://safeena.org


 * *Why can't they simply corroborate with already established mainstream Sunni web-sites like IslamOnline.net .etc?


 * *Why do they need to build their own centers in the West and around the globe?


 * *Why do they need to innovate, market and disseminate their favorite scholar's "teachings" in the name of Islam using such hedious methods and tactics? After all, don't Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP claim to be Sunni Muslims? IF THEY TRULY ARE THEN WHY DON'T MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS ACCEPT THEM AS THEIR OWN?


 * *Why would mainstream Sunni Muslim Scholars issue several Islamic Decrees (FATWAs) to warn people against them?


 * *Why is there a connection between the Zionists and the Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP ?


 * *Why don't Habashies / Al-Ahbash / AICP pray in the same direction as the mainstream Sunnis in North America? Is it about truly scientific reasons or to promote SEDITION?


 * and so on and so forth......


 * Good luck this time.


 * (Hint: You may always use major search engines like Google and Yahoo for research. You might be amazed to find out that there are SO MANY web-sites and material out there which have REFUTED all the Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies CLAIMS and BELIEFS .etc by quoting and using AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies' own material. This page, for which you are waging your "Jihad" at - to sanitize and rescue Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies, is just, as they say, a drop in the ocean.


 * McKhan

Again, i ask you to bring proof of your claimes, a fatwa is not proof. Crono 02:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agian, I am telling you that I am NOT going to baby-sit you. There is plenty of evidence out there. Go and figure. McKhan

If you expect to win a debate, you bring the proof WITH YOU, not tell people to 'go find it'. you lose this debate. you fail. [lack of evidence to support claimes]Crono 12:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "Debate"? "Winning"? "Fail"? To me, it is NOT a "debate" therefore "winning" or "losing" or "failing" is out of question. To me, It is all about DIFFERENTIATING between mainstream Sunnis and the CULT of AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies. Thats all. And you have helped me to prove that DIFFERENCE. Further, it is ALSO about the WikiPedia NPOV Guidelines. And Tearlach's version remains to be meeting WikiPedia NPOV guidelines. McKhan

"And Tearlach's version is somewhat WikePedia NPOV Guidelines compliant" or "And Tearlach's version remains to be meeting WikiPedia NPOV guidelines" is it or isn't it? Please make up your mind. Secondly, you boguth no proof in your claimes, the fatwa, you provide didn't have proof, nor do any of the links, none of them quote ANY aicp material. And yes, you are a whahabie, and your a kafir for this statement: "stuck in the DARK AGES" when refering to the knowlage of the sahabah and the prophet sallahu alayhi wa salam for belittleing them. This is an act of Riddah. Everyone, McKhan thinks we shoudl leave the ways of the propeht saws as those ways are the 'dark ages'. Nice going numnuts. Belittleing the religioun is blasphemy. Denying the propehts words abotu tawassul is also blasphemy. You have done both. Crono 23:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I just couldn't careless about your pscyo-babbling / "FATWAs". Your accusation of calling me a "blasphemous" means NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY nothing to me. By calling me a "Kaafir" or "Wahabi", you are SIMPLY fullfilling the "prediction" which I made on this very page LONG TIME ago and quite REPEATEDLY. Further, you are in the DIRECT violation of Surah Al-Ahzab. Alas! It is NOT going to change the FACT that: Al-Ahbash / AICP / Habashies IS a CULT which hides behind the Jamat Ahl Wa Sunnah to SEEK legitimacy and RECRUITMENT. If you will compare YOUR PATHETIC, LUDICRROUS "Sheikh" with the Prophets then thats all you are going to get. And YES, Tearlach's version remains to meet the WikiPedia NPOV guidelines because you INSIST to have YOUR POV. McKhan

You never proved anything. Kafir. :P Crono 04:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)