Talk:Al-Ahsa Governorate

Help in improving this article
The article needs a lot of improvement and more information .Al-Ahsa is a big area with a big history and many cities that should have a longer article.

A special care should be focused on its history and historical sites

Principality, Province or Municipality ?
To be Accurate Al-Ahsa is a Province and not a Municipality .The word Municipality is translated بلدية in Arabic which is not accurate. The word Principality is translated as إمارة which can be used for إمارة الشرقية Which includes Al-Ahsa Province. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brokenlove (talk • contribs).


 * It sems that the Saudi Arabian Government has a Ministry of Municipalities and Rural Affairs (وزارة الشئون البلدية والقروية?) but I don't know what municipality refers to there. It lists what it calls municipalities here.


 * Muhafazah (محافظة‎) is usually "governorate" in English but that is typically for countries where it is a first level subdivision (e.g. Egypt, Jordan, Yemen) but in Saudi Arabia, it is a second level division below the provinces (mintaqah منطقة‎).


 * Since the mintaqah are usually called provinces in English (see: Provinces of Saudi Arabia), the muhafazah should not be called provinces.


 * What to do? —  AjaxSmack    06:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's usually called muhafazah in Arabic which means governorate as you said. And it's rarely called baladiyah (like the site you provided, although it used muhafazah inside the Al-Ahsa article). And yes, it's not a mintaqah so it's better not to call it a province because it's not considered one of the provinces of Saudi Arabia. — MK (talk)  12:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Governorate is the most suitable .Municipality means an adminstrative entity that is smaler than Governorate,and that's why we found many municipalities in Al-Ahsa .Brokenlove 22:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added a list of governorates as officially stated in the article Eastern Province, Saudi ArabiaBrokenlove 22:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

SPLIT MONOLITHE of AL HUFUF - who knows more about it? I have been most impressed by the big rock near by Al Hufuf (similar Ayers Rock in Australia) It looks like the peak of a shooting star in a wide crater filled up by water and clay. It is located near by a big well watering fields under palm trees. The rock has several vertical cracks, wide enough to slip in. The people there used to make use of theese slots to burne there potteries. Doing this the heat cracked shells of stones of the walls of the slot causing some caves. People used to live in this caves as they are rather cool. Whan I have been there, still people have been living there thogh the government is trying to get them out. To me that rock was most impressing. This split rock is like part of the old arabic fairy tales of 1001 nights. It is a real touistic highlight. (user well.balanced@online.de  12.08.07)

Cut and paste move undone
There was a cut and paste move made here. I have returned the Al-Hasa page to it's original location but have kept the changes made at the Al-Ahsa location. A move request can be made at Requested moves. —  AjaxSmack    06:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The different meanings of Al-Hasa
It seems there are three meanings of Al-Hasa/Al-Ahsa. The first is the city of Hofuf (الهفوف). The second is the traditional region of Al-Hasa (الأحساء). The third is the current district or municipality of Al-Ahsa (محافظة الأحساء). These three senses of Al-Hasa should be kept in separate articles as their meanings and even locations are different. —  AjaxSmack    06:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's true. But Al-Hufoof is a part of the Al-Ahsa city. So basically (if I'm right), Al-Hufoof is a part of Al-Ahsa, and Al-Ahsa is a part of the main governorate which is also called Al-Ahsa. — MK (talk)  12:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Al-Ahsa or Al-Hasa ?
Al-Ahsaa with Hamza at the end is the original correct Arabic name for the area and also used in all formal texts and also all forma correspondences for business, and so this is the name that should appear in the encyclopedia and not Al-Hasa wich is a colloquial variation of it.Brokenlove 03:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It is also good to mention here that Al-Ahsa means an area and not a city. The use of Al-Ahsa to mean Al-Huffof city is not widely accepted now by me or others who live in the area .Brokenlove 03:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you're from the area because I want to be clear about Al-Hasa/Al-Ahsa. The map of the municipality (Image:Hasa2.jpg) shows Al-Hasa stretching south of the Qatar peninsula and including the eastern Empty Quarter, hardly an oasis.  But it seems the traditional region of Al-Hasa is more to the north and usually includes all of the Saudi Arabian eastern coast (see: this map).  If these two areas are somewhat different, there should be two articles.
 * This brings me to another point. "Al-Ahsa" may be correct for the current municipality but the traditional region is almost always spelled "Al-Hasa" or "Hasa" in English (see: here, here, here, and here, here (see 1913)).
 * —  AjaxSmack   03:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Al-Ahsa was traditionally called Al-Bahrain which includes all the eastern reagion and the island of Bahrain and reaching part of Kuwait. The new Al-Ahsa boundaries were established after Al Saud ocuupation of the area. The name Al-Ahsa is a plural word of Hisi which means a peace of rocky land covered by sand and has groundwater .Al-Hasa is a colloquial pronunciation and not a different word. No Arabic native speaker uses the word Hasa to mean Al-Ahsa, al- is an important part of the word .Brokenlove 04:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand about the Arabic but English mostly uses Al-Hasa and Hasa and article titles should reflect English usage (WP:UE). What do you think about creating two articles 1. Al-Hasa for the traditional region and 2. Al-Ahsa for the current Saudi municipality? —   AjaxSmack    04:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

As I mentiond above ,there is no word Al-Hasa that means Al-Ahsa in formal Arabic, so why should we create a seperate article named Al-Hasa to mean the traditional reagion ?Brokenlove 04:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Al-Ahsa is sometimes spelled Al-Hasa in English books because the writers heared it like this from people but it will never be written Al-Hasa in any formal text or even when speaking formally .Brokenlove 04:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It is also spelled Al-Ahsa in English in Saudi Arabia when translating names such as Al-Ahsa Hospital but not Al-Hasa Hospital. Brokenlove 04:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The region is almost always called Al-Hasa in English and the general rule is that the article title should "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works" (from WP:UE). If the current municipality uses Al-Ahsa, then it should be at a new article under Al-Ahsa.  It is not unusual for places to have two different spellings in English even if the original form is the same (e.g., Limburg, Limbourg).  —   AjaxSmack    07:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Al-Ahsa" gets more hits than "Al-Hasa". Geographically, there's no difference between Al-Ahsa and Al-Hasa. Locally, it's called El-Hasa. But in formal Arabic, it's called Al-Ahsa. — MK (talk)  10:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this accurate?
—  AjaxSmack   04:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)



It is good to have an article named Al-Bahrain (Historical Region ) instead of Al-Ahsa (Historical Region) .The word Al-Bahrain was used to mean about the region marked in the map posted here .In early Islamic Caliphates, it was always mentioned as Al-Bahrain which was a large region including today Bahrain ,Qatar and part of Kuwait .Brokenlove 04:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The name "Bahrain" does not cover the modern era (1500s-1913), though. Here is a quote from the Bahrain article's history section: "Bahrain up until 1521 comprised the bigger region of Ahsa, Qatif (both are now the eastern province of Saudi Arabia) as well as Awal (now Bahrain Islands). The region stretched from Basrah to the Strait of Hormuz in Oman. This was Iqlīm al-Bahrayn "Bahrayn Province" and the Arab inhabitants of the province, descendants of the Arab tribe Banī ˤAbdu l-Qays, were called Bahārna after it.  In 1521, the Portuguese conquered Awal; since then, "Bahrayn" has specifically referred to the area that is modern Bahrain.  This implies Al-Hasa is not exactly the same as the old Al-Bahrayn.


 * After the 1500s, Al-Hasa was an important region both as a nominal Ottoman province of Al-Hasa and especially in the unification of Arabia by the Saudis. Neither of these can be called "Al-Bahrayn" -- they are always some form of Al-Hasa in English -- and the region of Al-Hasa referred to is different from the current Saudi municipality.


 * How would you define the area of Al-Hasa from 1500s-1913? If you go here, you can see a list of rulers, governors, etc. of Al-Hasa. —   AjaxSmack    07:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The historical region you mean is more refered to as Iqlim Al-Bahrain in Arabic (إقليم البحرين, Region of Bahrain), which covered Awal (now Bahrain), Al-Khutt (Qatif), Kazma (a city now in Kuwait), and Al-Ahsa (previously called Hajr). Again, there's no difference (geographically) between Al-Hasa and Al-Ahsa. I agree with creating a new article about the historical region of Bahrain. — MK (talk)  10:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with MK in that the region was named Iqlim Al-Bahrain .It was clearly mentioned as Iqlim Al-Bahrain in the period of Umayyad and Abbasid .Brokenlove 17:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move to Al-Ahsa

Requested move
Al-Hasa → Al-Ahsa – move originally proposed by Brokenlove per: "This is the official and most common name". Most of the content refers to the current administrative unit and the page history should follow it to Al-Ahsa. New page for historical region of Al-Hasa can then be created. See above for previous discussion. —  AjaxSmack    01:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support per above. —  AjaxSmack    01:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, As I discussed in this page the official and formal name is Al-Ahsa . Yes, it is pronounced as El-Hasa in colloquial Gulf Arabic but it never spelled or spoken like Al-Hasa or El-Hasa in any formal text or speach .Western scholars might have taken the spelling Al-Hasa from what they heard from local people in informal speech .Brokenlove 02:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support, because it's the formal name. — MK (talk)  13:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose because, if what nominator says about historic name is true, some overzealous editor has gone overboard in editing this article. Gene Nygaard 00:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Demographics
Shia/Sunni relation?