Talk:Al-Bassa

This Article is Extremely POV
Is it necessary to discuss a patently false implication?

If an article were to state: "The 22nd Amendment to the Twenty-second Amendment to the United States Constitution limits African Americans to two terms as President", how can I "correct" it? Yes, it is true that Palestinian Citizens of Israel lived under martial law during the period mentioned, just as it is true that Black Presidents are limited to two terms of office. Would such statement perhaps require a bit of rewording?

Martial law in Israel during the period mentioned was imposed in certain geographical areas upon ALL Israelis regardless of ethnicity, just as the 22nd Amendment applies to ALL presidents, regardless of ethnicity. Am I the one only concerned that such statements may have the efect of grossly misleading those who read it?

The statement: "One witness to the expulsion said that it was preceded by soldiers shooting and killing five villagers inside the church, while another said seven villagers were brutally shot and killed by soldiers outside the church" is an extremely inaccurate, unnecessarily biased (how was this alleged shooting any more "brutal" than those fired back?) and very possibly untrue.

I checked the source, and the author himself provides no source.

He merely makes a claim.

How is it that what originated as an absolutely unsourced claim mysteriously transformed itself into a statement of fact? AbdulHornochsmannn (talk) 21:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The military government selectively operated in Arab population centers and was selectively enforced on Arabs. Everyone understood that the purpose was to control the Arab population and this is amply confirmed by official documents. It might be technically correct that Jews living in those areas were also subject to it, but in practice they could ignore it. This distinction was so universal that almost all historians describe it as a regime under which Arabs lived. Zerotalk 00:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sources, please? All I'm hearing are sourceless statements either couched in weasel words or even worse, entireley sourceless statements of "fact" with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Not even a weasel word. Couldn't you have at least TRIED to make your the assertion even the slightest air of legitimacy by beginning it with "It is widely believed the military government...(even the term "Military Government" is incorect. There's an ocean of difference between the terms "Military Government" and "Martial Law".


 * As for the weasel words, where to begin! "Amply confirmed"? "Everyone undertood"? "Might be technically correct"? "The distinction was so universal"? "almost all historians"? Would you be so kind as to name me just a mere half dozen of these "almost all historians" you're referring to?


 * One final question: The article makes reference to Israelis/Jews "brutally" shooting Palestinians to death. Just how were these particular shots fired at Palestians any more "Brutal" than those shots fired back at the Jews in those hositilities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AbdulHornochsmannn (talk • contribs)


 * I'm not sure that "martial law" is the correct legal phrase, though it is correct by its popular meaning. "Military government" is the standard phrase used by historians writing in English, though a few prefer "military administration". You can easy verify that yourself, but since you asked so nicely:
 * Segregation or Integration of the Israeli Arabs: Two Concepts in Mapai, Eyal Kafkafi, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 30, No. 3 (Aug., 1998), pp. 347-367: "In his [Lavon's] view, the continuation of military government over the Arabs was, in fact, intended to keep up the transfer policy" ... "Lavon ridiculed these dreams of transfer and warned his party that it would not be good policy to prolong the military government over the Arabs that had been set up during the War of Independence"
 * Crime and legal control: The Israeli Arab population during the military government period (1938-66), Alina Korn, British Journal of Criminology, (2000) 40 574-593. "..restrictions imposed on Arabs..." ... "the Arab population was subjugated to military government" ... "selective application to the Arab population". (etc, etc).
 * Settlement of Title in the Galilee; Dowson’s Colonial Guiding Principles, Jeremy Forman, Israel Studies, vol 7 no 3. : "The 'Proposal for Settlement of Title to Land under Military Rule,' was modified in a number of ways before receiving government approval in August 1956. The Prime Minister’s Arab Affairs Advisor recommended making no public mention of the relationship between accelerated settlement activity and the military government."
 * Israel's Road to the 1956 War, David Tal, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1. (Feb., 1996), pp. 59-81. "In this period [1948-1956] the government ... placed the Israeli Arabs under military government..."
 * The Roots of Peacemaking: The Dynamics of Citizenship in Israel, 1948-93, Yoav Peled and Gershon Shafir, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 3 (Aug., 1996), pp. 391-413. "Of the 150,000 Palestinians who had remained in the territory of the State of Israel at the conclusion of the 1948 war, about 60,000 were granted immediate Israeli citizenship. The rest were allowed to apply for it. Until 1966, however, they were ruled by a military administration, "which imposed severe restrictions on their freedom of movement and economic opportunities, and placed them under surveillance and military law" (Medding 1990, 25). The military administration aroused considerable opposition among some Jewish Israelis because it violated the Palestinians' citizenship rights and among others because it was seen as an electoral instrument in the hands of the ruling Labor Party, which repeatedly garnered the largest share of the Palestinian vote. In response to this pressure and to labor shortages that developed in the (Jewish) labor market, many of the restrictive regulations of the military administration were relaxed in the early 1960s. Its formal abolition, however, came only in December 1966 (Jiryis 1976, 31-55; Lustick 1980; Shalev 1992)."
 * Local Struggle, National Struggle, Shira Robinson, International Journal of Middle East Studies 35 (2003), 393–416. "From August 1948 through December 1966, a formal military administration governed the daily lives of the country’s remaining Palestinian Arab population, restricting their movement, expression, and employment, and largely isolating them from Jewish Israeli society."
 * And so on and on. Can you find any similarly eminent sources that the military government had a significant effect on Jews?  Zerotalk 02:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly. AbdulHornochsmannn (talk) 19:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Me.


 * I lived there at that time.


 * Martial law sucks. Curfews suck. Random checkpoints suck. Constant warrantless search and seizure sucks.


 * Still, sucky as it was, I'm alive.


 * Eminent enough for you? AbdulHornochsmannn (talk) 07:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Your personal experience is not WP:V and does not constitute an WP:RS. Please provide scholarly sources that support the changes you are trying to introduce. Zero cited some that support his position. Do you have any for yours besides personal anecdotes?  T i a m u t talk 10:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way, earlier you indicated that are a "Black man", who could only imagine how a Jew would feel by misrepresentations you have encountered in this article. Above, you say you lived through martial law in Israel. This is part of the reason personal experiences are not a valid source at Wiipedia. Since seemingly, one can say anything about themselves, when editing anonymously.  T i a m u t talk 10:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

mistakes
I have been to the village, and heard its history from an elder who witnessed the events of 1948. In May 14th 1948 the village was circled from 3 directions by Israeli forces. The villagers escaped to the north, acrosss the border to Lebanon (and were not deported two weeks later as the article states). There were at least 3 churches and a mosque, and they remain the only buildings still standing in Bassa today. Pelegisrael 13:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The whole truth
What the article fails to mention is that many of these Arab villages close to the border with Lebanon were occupied by ALA fedayeen and other Arab irregular forces from Lebanon, not to mention Lebanese army troops. To portray these villages as all being detached from the conflict until the Hagannah or IDF decided to occupy them and expel peaceful Arab villagers is simply false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 15:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't find any such source on that subject. Do you have one?  T i a m u t talk 22:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How about trying Wikipedia? The article in the Palestinian Fedayeen pretty much backs up everything Mr./Ms. 205 is asserting. {Please sign your edits. Unsigned text is liable to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AbdulHornochsmannn (talk • contribs)


 * That article does not contain what you claim. Zerotalk 02:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Trisdam Quotes
Hey Tiamut! I added the Tristram quotes to the article ....*before* I knew (or they were)  available on the net. Now they just seem far to big; I tried to "hide" them, but I´m not really happy with the result. Shall we just remove them? Make a short summary of what they say? Then just make ref. to the google-page with the inf., like "Trisdam (1865), p.68, p. p.69" What do you think? Huldra (talk) 22:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey you. I'll try to cut them down or paraphrase as we move along here. Question: Is Trisdam another spelling of Tristram? I assumed it was and changed all Trisdam's to Tristram's but if I'm wrong let me know and I'll undo it. Nice to see you again my dear. Sorry for not emailing. I'm quite tied up with this film stuff I'm working on for the next couple of months so the book project I told you about is on hold until then. If you do want to talk and send me a email, let me know by dropping a note on my page because I don't check it unless someone asks me to. Kisses.  T i a m u t talk 22:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ooopsh, yeah; "Trisdam" is just a misspelling for Henry Baker Tristram. And don´t worry about putting the book-project on hold. Great to see  you editing; cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thought so, but thanks for confirming. I'll try to do as much as I can in the next couple of months, but I'll be pretty busy. Great to see you too though as always. take care of your hands and happy editing.  T i a m u t talk 23:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh PS. if you have any info on Salbit that you have time to add, that would be good. I created it today and if we can fill in some of the blanks using Khalidi, I'll nominate it for a DYK. If you add things even in just point form, I'll make them into prose and do the formatting of the ref and biblio and everything. No pressure though. If we miss DYK, we can always make it quality later on anyway. Much love,  T i a m u t talk 23:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear; Khalidi has hardly *anything* on Salbit, I have already added what is in his meagre  "history"-part. I will try to check out Morris, and archaeology refs. in the next day or two. And if you tale a look at User:Huldra/Sources, you will see some notes for articles about 1948-villages that should be written. Kafr Saba is really top of the list; a millennium of history there. All the ones I have listed there either have pictures on commons and/or are discussed by Benvenisti and/or Pappe (in addition to Khalidi and Morris). We are not running out of work! Take care, my dear, Huldra (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry hon, I missed your edits there until just a few minutes ago. Thanks for adding what he has. I will try to make Kafr Saba my next new article project, drawing heavily upon your page info of course. We can make that into a DYK quite easily I think given what you already have and how fast I can find and add new stuff. ;) Thanks for continually reminding me of the valuable resource you have there. I'm sorry I'm such a forgetful dunce and keep missing the opportunity to mine the gold mine. Happy editing me dear.  T i a m u t talk 23:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, come on, *you* are the one who can "iron" out my language and make it readable! Hmm, Al-Bassa is starting to look  ok; we need to get rid off those "hidden" quotes, though. Oh well, I´ll start adding info for our next project, Kafr Saba, take care! Huldra (talk) 23:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll do more work on Al-Bassa tomorrow and the next day. I'll also add whatever I can on Kfar Saba to your subpage. From there, when we're happy with it, we can farm it out to a new article and nom for DYK right away. It will be ready and we won't feel any pressure that way. Your the best Huldra. It takes pebbles from all of us to build these articles and without yours I would be lost.  T i a m u t talk 00:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, that plan sounds good. There are notes for about 8 new articles on User:Huldra/Sources, I had actually not planned starting any before I had got  the other 1948-village-articles in a better shape, but say, once a week or so, we could indulge  ourselves and start a  new one ;-) Anyway, I think I have done for tonight; the next two days I might be occupied with other things, but then I should be back. Take care, see ya, my dear, Huldra (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect. I'll add what I can over the next two days. We'll decide when to move out after it's been plumped up a little. I'll be busy next week, but if all I have to do is nominate it and keep track of the DYK nom process (after having added everything I can to your sub-page first of course) we might be able to make Kfar Saba a reality by next week. I think I;m going to go to be too. It's 3:30am here (ooof insomnia again) ;) At least it makes me productive. Sweet dreams my dear.  T i a m u t talk 00:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And to you, too! We are one hour before you, but anyway; good-night and sweet dreams! Huldra (talk) 00:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

More sources
For mining as time permits (anyone feel free): Zerotalk 11:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Shai, Aron. The Fate of Abandoned Arab Villages in Israel, 1965-1969. History & Memory - Volume 18, Number 2, Fall/Winter 2006, pp. 86-106 (final destruction ca. 1967)
 * Grootkerk Gazetteer, p2-3. (Timeline)
 * Secular buildings in the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: an archaeological ... By Denys Pringle (p116) (crusader period)
 * Un partage de seigneurie entre Francs et Mamelouks : les « Casaus de Sur » (Mamluke period)
 * Frankish Rural Settlement in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem By Ronnie Ellenblum (crusader period)
 * Abassi, Mustafa and Near, Henry(2007)'The General and the Village: The 1948 War and its Aftermath seen from the Sidelines', Israel Affairs,13:1,24-54. (1948 details)
 * 1931 census. 479 occupied houses. 868 Muslims, 1076 Christians, 4 Bahais. (Vol 1, p99)
 * Katz, Itamar and Kark, Ruth, 'The church and landed property: The greek orthodox patriarchate of Jerusalem', Middle Eastern Studies, 43:3, 383-408. (Christian churches)
 * Nafez Abdullah Nazzal, The Zionist Occupation of Western Galilee, 1948, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 3, No. 3. (Spring, 1974), pp. 58-76. (1948 testimony)
 * Morris (2004), pages not yet referenced.
 * Atallah Mansour, Narrow Gate Churches: The Christian Presence in the Holy Land under Muslim and Jewish Rule (1948 and later)
 * War in Palestine, 1948: Strategy and Diplomacy (Israeli History, Politics, and Society) by David Tal (1948 destruction)
 * Petersen, Gazeteer (Vol 1, part1, p111) Ayn el-Bassa (I can't read this)
 * A book I don't have: Y. Hadda, Society and Folklore in Palestine: A Case Study of Al Bassa Village, Acre, 1987 (Arabic).

I've stricken the Pringle ref, since I added what was mentioned there. Question though: is Khirbet Kafr Bassa related to al-Bassa as well? I didn't add anything about it since I was not sure. Thanks the refs Zero.  T i a m u t talk 11:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Khirbet Kafr Bassa is far to the south. The numbers in Pringle like "1637/2757" (al-Bassa) and "1521/2054" (Kh. K. Bassa) are map coordinates, horizontal first. You can find the second one on the Zichron Zaakov map (sent in email, folder Topographic1939). The first one would be on the Haifa sheet if I had it. Another way to locate sites in Pringle is: add 500/5000 and multiply by 100. Example (Kh. K. Bassa): 1521/2054 plus 500/5000 is 2021/7054, times 100 is 202,100/705,400. Now go to http://amudanan.co.il/ and find that location (the brown numbers in the upper right that change when you move the mouse). A question: is it possible to feed coordinates into that site? I can only see how to search for names. Zerotalk 14:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey Zero. Thans for the very detailed and useful explanation. I was wondering what those numbers were.
 * About the site ... I checked it out, and I can find no way to enter coords there. Perhaps though, you might ask Ynhockey, since he seems to have more experience with mapping sites dealing with Israel than I do. Good luck.  T i a m u t talk 14:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The Muslim "invade", and the Christian Crusades "reclaims"??
Ok, folks; can we please avoid terms like "Muslim invade", and the "Christian Crusades reclaims"? ..just think the opposite; what if I wrote about the "Christian Crusader invasion" and the "Muslim reclaiming"?

Can we find some neutral terms here, please? Huldra (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't all too comfortable with the term "Muslim invasions" either, unfortunately that's the name of the article I was citing. How about we just stick to the one identical word such as "conquer", and use it equally for all parties involved? I can't see how we'd be acting at all POV.


 * A word I particularly don't like is "massacre". The word "massacre" implies the wrongful killing of innocents. In WWII, did the Allies "massacre" the Nazis? Not quite.


 * "[W]hat if I wrote about the "Christian Crusader invasion" and the "Muslim reclaiming"? I'd be fine. I don't see any NPOV issue. All three groups were and/or are actively involved in reclaiming land they believe they have right to. The Christian Crusaders, The Zionist Jews, and today the Palestinians. Remember, I'm just using the word "claim" here. All three have equally laid claim at one point or another.


 * Still, I must say that I truly appreciate the good faith manner you're dealing with this issue, Hudra. AbdulHornochsmannn (talk) 20:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The name of the article is actually Muslim conquests, and not Muslim invasions.  T i a m u t talk 10:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It is now. Unfortunately you removed reference to it under that title as well. What is so terribly wrong about explaining how Muslims GOT there in the first place by referring to the Muslim conquests?


 * You seem to be putting in an incredible amount of effort to make it seem that the Muslim Arabs are native to that village when in fact they are not. The village was a Jewish village PRIOR to it becoming an Arab village. The Arabs depopulated the village of Jews in the 7th century. 174.89.242.93 (talk) 08:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no information in the sources on whether there was continuity of occupation between the Talmudic period and the Arab period. In fact, even the identification of the location as the Talmudic Betzet is speculation.  Was this location specifically identified called Betzet in any Jewish sources before 1948?  If not, the name Betzet in the lead should be removed.  Zerotalk 09:03, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Why is the identification of the location as the Talmudic Betzet speculation? A verifiable source was cited referring to it as such. 174.89.240.10 (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding unsourced, unverifiable material
A new editor has added a bunch of unsourced material to the article and has protested its removal in these edits which I reverted. I would address him directly, but since he finds me to be an "irrelevant person", I'm not actually interested. Perhaps someone else would like to explain?  T i a m u t talk 17:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That was no simple edit. That was a formal RfC you just deleted. RfC's are meant to be made on the article's template, not the talkpage. I will assume good faith and assume you simply didn't notice the enormous "A user has requested comment from other editors for this discussion banner." You happen to be a party to this issue. Removing an RfC concerning an issue you are a direct party to is a direct conflict of interest. Please reinsert the RfC. AbdulHornochsmannn (talk) 20:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The material you added and which Tiamut correctly reverted belongs on the article talk page, not the article itself. There is nothing wrong with requesting an RfC (provided you follow the correct process), but I recommend that you discuss differences here first, before resorting to the more formal stages of dispute resolution, such as RfC. In answer to your earlier question (which you recently deleted), no, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but it is fine to copy references to reliable sources from other Wikipedia articles, as long as they are relevant and support the material you are inserting.


 * If you look at the (long) contribution records of Zero, Huldra and Tiamut, you will find that they are careful, accurate editors who take the trouble to supply high-quality sources supporting the material they add. There are many, many thousands of incomplete articles on Wikipedia, and you should not blame them if you think important information is misssing from this article. Instead you are free to add such material yourself, but it must be supported by references to reliable sources, otherwise it is likely to be deleted. --NSH001 (talk) 21:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

AbdulHornochsmannn, if you want to actually contribute to the article here is an example. Supposedly a place called "Betzet" is mentioned somewhere in the Talmud. Which Talmud is it, and what does it say there? An explicit page reference would be best. If we can also find a source that argues the Betzet of the Talmud is the same place as the al-Bassa of this article, we can include the information in the article. But we can't do our own speculating. Zerotalk 22:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Deletions of sourced, relevant material - insertion of POV and remotely related material

 * Reverted these edits. Removing well-sourced, relevant information from this article, or altering it to reflect your own personal tae on how it should read, and adding very POV, one-sided summaries of the reasons for the outbreak of the 1948 war, from sources that do not even mention al-Bassa ... well, I'm sorry, but this kind of editing simply will not fly here.
 * If Mr. AbulHornochsmann would like to add some background material on the 1948 war here, it should be material that is directly related to al-Bassa and is WP:NPOV. I suggest however, that simply linking to our own articles that discuss these issues in depth would be better practice, since there are hundreds of villages that were depopulated in 1948 and repeating the same bit about 1948 in each of them, in general terms, would be quite tedious.  T i a m u t talk 10:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Copying from a source
In the history of this article, and perhaps remaining still is text copied from this source. Fred Talk 13:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not "copied" text. It is text that is paraphrased from that source, and cited to it at the end of every sentence in question (of which there are three currently in the article). If you feel that the paraphrase is too close for comfort, by all means modify it. I tend to stick as closely as possible to the wording in the sources since slight deviations tend to be challenged as POV or OR by people who don't like the info being introduced.  T i a m u t talk 16:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Military Assault and Jewish Expulsion: One cause or two?
Very well, no harm in discussing it.

Can someone please explain to me how a "Miltary Assault" is an entirely separate cause for the depopulation than an outright "Expulsion"? The population was there, and then they left. Why did they leave? According to one source it was because they were expelled by Jews. Fine. How did these Jews manage to gain sufficient control of the village to carry through this expulsion? Military Assault. You can't expell people from a place if you don't control that place. All we're talking about here are two separate stages of one alleged cause.

Q: What was the cause of the Holocaust? A: There was no single cause. Indeed there were seventeen:

Cause 1) The rise of National Socialism in Germany; Cause 2) Adolph Hitler's election to Chancellor in 1933; Cause 3) Adolph Hitler's possession of racial theories classifying Jews as subhuman; Cause 4) The implementation of Adolph Hitler's racial theories classifying Jews as subhuman; Cause 5) The construction of Death Camps. Cause 6) The construction of Gas Chambers. Cause 7) The herding of Jews into those Gas Chambers; Cause 8) The introction of the deadly gas "Zyklon B" into those Gas Cambers; Cause 9) The deadly reaction of the Jews to the introduction of Zyklon B into Gas Chambers they happened to have been located in. Cause 10) The cremation of those Jews killed by Zyklon B. Cause 12) Hyper-inflation. Cause 13) The harshness of the Treaty of Versailles. Cause 14) German bitterness over the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles. Cause 15) Mohammad Amin al-Husayni's alliance with Hitler. Cause 16) Al-Husayani's extreme inhospitality in that he refused to so much as allow Jews the most temporary of assylums in Palestine, even if only to save another human's life and kick him out once the war is over. Cause 17) The German need for soap.

But there aren't 17 causes. There is but one: Jew-Hatred.

What would actually be of some USE would be to offer ALTERNATIVE explanations, such as those of Eminent Historian Cecil Roth:

"At the outset the Arab authorities had made it known that any person remaining in the areas controlled by the Jews would be regarded as acquiescing in their political pretentions and would have to answer for it. Thus, with the outbreak of hostilities there took place a wholesale evacuation in preparation for a triumphant return." 70.25.46.99 (talk) 00:15, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Zero0000" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.46.99 (talk) 00:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically, Morris is fudging the issue by insisting there were multiple causes of the ethnic cleansing - and particularly when he says that some of it was voluntary. There was only one cause for all of the ethnic cleansing, and it was the greed of armed robbers. Cecil Roth's explanation is both nasty and false, modern historians accept what obviously went on. 86.159.70.117 (talk) 22:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

What's with the gaps?
I don't understand. Why is [[Ancient Israel never mentioned? Why are the Muslim Conquests never mentioned? Why are these two crucial periods mysteriously absent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.212.53.164 (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Would it be permissable for me to add links to these two articles? LewisMontreal (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The sources on Al-Bassa do not mention "Ancient Israel" or the "Muslim Conquests". If they do not, we do not, since these events are not considered by scholars to be significant to the subject at hand. If you do have sources that discuss al-Bassa in relation to these two topics, please do add them to article. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 20:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Before getting into anything too contentious, could we perhaps begin with improving the introductory paragraph to give a fuller account of the history of Betzet/Al-Bassa? Unfortunately the article is under "protection". As introductory information, can the following article on Betzet, with its specific reference to its own introductory paragraph please be inserted? "The moshav [Betzet] was founded in 1951 by on land belonging to the Palestinian village Al-Bassa, which was destroyed in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The founders were immigrants to Israel from the Balkan states, especially the former Yugoslavia and Romania. The community is named after the ancient village of Betzet which is estimated to have existed nearby. In 2005, it had a population of about 300." [Footnote included]. Thank you. LewisMontreal (talk) 09:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi again. The article Betzet lists only one source, which is in Hebrew and doesn't seem to be accessible on-line. I therefore cannot verify that it supports all the information in our rticle on Betzet. Other Wikipedia articles are not WP:RS for information we wish to add here. However, if you do have reliable sources that discuss the history of Betzet, we can consider whether or not they are appropriate to mention briefly here. Please remember though that this is an article on al-Bassa, and not the modern or ancient Betzet, so the inclusion should be brief with extended info added to the other article. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 17:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you basically saying that the village only existed when it was inhabited by Arabs? If so, why does it include information such as:


 * In the Jerusalem Talmud, the village בצת is listed as one of those lying on the border of Israel but considered to be in Israel for specific stringencies regarding Shmita. It was called Bezeth during the Roman period...The site shows signs of habitation in prehistory and the Middle Bronze Age. It was a Jewish settlement between 70 and 425 AD. Blown glass pitchers uncovered in a tomb in al-Bassa were dated to circa 396 AD. An ancient Christian burial place and 18 other archaeological sites were located in the village;"


 * then continue well on after it was de-populated:


 * "Some of the villagers of Al-Bassa (approx. 5%) were internally displaced ending up in places like Nazareth where they became Israeli citizens, but lived under martial law until 1966 and required permits to leave their place of residence. The only day on which Palestinians did not require a permit to travel during that period was Israel's Independence Day. On this day, which Palestinians call Nakba Day, internally displaced Palestinians would visit their former villages. Wakim Wakim, an attorney from Al-Bassa and a leading member of the Association for the Defense of the Rights of the Internally Displaced explains: "The day when Israel celebrates is the day we mourn...Most of the former villagers of al-Bassa (approx. 95%) were pushed north towards Lebanon, concentrating in the Dbayeh refugee camp near Jounieh east of Beirut. Prior to and during the Lebanese civil war, this camp suffered severe damage in the fighting and was largely destroyed, though it still has a population of some 4,233 people who are mostly Palestinian Christian refugees. Other former residents of Al-Bassa and the refugee camp in Lebanon ended up in Lansing, Michigan where they established an international village club and hold annual gatherings attended by over 300 people."


 * "Please remember though that this is an article on al-Bassa". Yes. A village that was apparently destroyed by Jews in 1948. Why all the extraneous information on the former villagers? Is this an article about a village, or an article about its former residents?


 * Seems the only reliable and somehow relevant information we've got of what remains of the ruins of Al-Bassah is that a certain "Peterson" is aware of a certain Mosque that is now being used as a sheep pen.


 * "Please remember though that this is an article on al-Bassa, and not the modern or ancient Betzet, so the inclusion should be brief with extended info added to the other article."


 * Crop rotation in a village listed in Jewish Religious scripture, having a name only Hebrew readers would understand to be pronounced "Betzet"?


 * "Some of Bassa's former public structures have been preserved and are found today within the Israeli localities of Shlomi and" an Israeli town that by mere coincidence happens to be refered to as בצת.


 * "Found today?" Were they stolen and transported to a nearby town called בצת?"


 * Sounds no different than saying "Some of Leningrad's former public structures have been preserved and are found today within the Russian locality of Санкт-Петербург, which used to lie on the border of Russia but considered considered to be in Russia for specific stringencies regarding crop rotation." Thanks. 70.49.69.185 (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Please remember though that this is an article on al-Bassa."


 * Hearing no objection, I will now proceed to delete extraneous detail that does not directly concern the village of Al-Bassa.


 * Sorry, but I do object. I've gone to considerable trouble to make sure the sources cited do discuss al-Bassa. If there is one or two that do not, please let me know here first which text and source is at issue, so we can discuss whether or not its inclusion is appropriate. Most of things you cited above are about al-Bassa specifically, whether before or after its depopulation. Removing that information serves no valid purpose.  T i a m u t talk 13:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Is this article about a village, or is it about the Jewish expulsion of its Arab inhabitants?


 * Is this article about a village, or is it about an event? If the article is about an event, it must be retitled: "The Jewish de-population of the Palestinian village of Al-Bassa." 70.49.69.185 (talk) 08:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "If there is one or two that do not, please let me know here first which text and source is at issue, so we can discuss whether or not its inclusion is appropriate."


 * For starters:


 * "In the Jerusalem Talmud, the village בצת is listed as one of those lying on the border of Israel but considered to be in Israel for specific stringencies regarding Shmita. It was called Bezeth during the Roman period...The site shows signs of habitation in prehistory and the Middle Bronze Age. It was a Jewish settlement between 70 and 425 AD."


 * What does any of this have to do with Al-Bassa? LewisMontreal (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "I've gone to considerable trouble to make sure the sources cited do discuss al-Bassa. If there is one or two that do not, please let me know here first which text and source is at issue, so we can discuss whether or not its inclusion is appropriate."


 * Before the 7th century, absent any source to the countrary, Al-Bassa did not exist. Do you dispute that? Why are you citing sources that discuss other pre-Al-Bassa municipalities such as the Roman Betzeth and a vague reference to some village with an untranslated Hebrew name, and its listing in the Jerusalem Talmud (date?) with regards to crop rotation?


 * "If there is one or two that do not, please let me know here first which text and source is at issue, so we can discuss whether or not its inclusion is appropriate."


 * And so I've done. Can we please discuss it? LewisMontreal (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Israel or Lebanon?
"In the Jerusalem Talmud, the village בצת is listed as one of those lying on the border of Israel but considered to be in Israel for specific stringencies regarding Shmita."

I can't make any sense of this sentence. A border is a one dimensional line. It has no width. It is physically impossible for a vilage to exists entirely on a border. Was the town split by the border, the northern part in Lebanon, and the southern part in Israel? 70.49.69.185 (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Shmita is a Jewish agricultural practice somewhat akin to crop rotation. Moreover, the footnote makes no mention of Shmita whatsover. How can crop rotation affect the geographical location of a village? 70.49.69.185 (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Sharp borders in the form of one dimensional lines are a modern phenomenon. In the past they were shifting and fuzzy, and the borders of conceptual regions like "Eretz Yisrael" did not have exact definitions and did not necessarily correspond to the borders of political control at any particular moment. Here is my amateur understanding of it: Jewish law mandates many practices, including shmita, for places in Eretz Yisrael. When a city was near the fuzzy boundary of Eretz Yisrael, the rabbis had to decide whether or not the city needed to do obey these practices or not. It is possible that they could decide that the city had to obey some practices and not others. The Talmud passage states that this city had to do shmita, because in the rabbis' opinion it lay within Eretz Yisrael for the purposes of the shmita law. Zerotalk 15:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Power is the most ancient of phenomena. Certainly, Jews had the power to regulate matters existing within Israel. But how could Jews regulate matters beyond their sovereign control?


 * Are you suggesting that the ambit of power of Jews extends BEYOND the Jewish State? If so, how far? Do Rabbis have the power to decide whether crop rotation in Damascus is or is not required to abide by Jewish Law?


 * How is that possible? Are you suggesting that Jews have some clandestine power over matters extending beyond Israel? 70.49.69.185 (talk) 09:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's not at all clandestine. Rabbis have the authority to decide matters of law pertaining to Jews anywhere in the world. -- -- -- 19:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Progress!
Finally I see some NPOV introduced to this series.

Still http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Kabri_massacre&action=edit&section=1 is unnacceptable.

This article as well must be unprotected as it remains one of the few to gloss over the Muslim Conquests in an attempt to distort history. Please unprotect this article promptly. Thank you. AH 65.94.244.9 (talk) 14:10, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Progress!
Finally I see some NPOV introduced to this series.

Still http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Kabri_massacre&action=edit&section=1 is unnacceptable.

This article as well must be unprotected as it remains one of the few to gloss over the Muslim Conquests in an attempt to distort history. Please unprotect this article promptly. Thank you. AH 65.94.244.9 (talk) 14:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * May I suggest that you create an account instead? Invitrovanitas (talk) 14:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I created two accounts, both permablocked by ZERO after I attempted to remove blatantly false and antisemitic propaganda. She even went so far as to change the case of a letter to make a blue link I was referencing red, making it appear that the article didn't exist. 65.94.247.31 (talk) 16:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Why is this article blocked?
It has glaring errors in it, yet Ican't edit it. Please unblock it. 65.94.244.63 (talk) 15:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Merger

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article covers a single period (British Mandate) of an ancient village, still existent - Betzet in the Galilee. The Mandatory period is not so significantly covered to have an article just on that period, so I propose this article be merged into Betzet, the modern village in Israel covering the same place of Al-Bassa in the Mandatory period and basically carrying the same name (al-Bassah is Arabic version of previous Hellenic name from Roman times for Betzet - a Hebrew name still in use). This merger is in accordance with similar cases of Amka, Ashdod and Caesarea. Please vote keep or merge.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Strong keep - From the Betzet article, Al-Bassa was a Palestinian village destroyed in the 1948. Betzet is a Moshav founded in 1951 by Balkan immigrants on land belonging to the former Palestinian village. They are not the same thing. I don't see any reason for this merge. Also Greyshark's claim that this article only covers the British mandate period is totally false. The article clearly covers the history of the village back to the 1200's.   Dlv999 (talk) 20:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant that the alternative was renaming "Al-Bassa" to "Betzet during the Mandatory period". Betzet and Al-Bassa is the same origin phonetically - it was called Bezeth during the Roman period, and its Arabic name is al-Basah. In the period of Crusader rule in Palestine, it was known as Le Bace or LeBassa. Greyshark09 (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep. This article covers very much more than the mandate period and I simply can't understand how someone can claim otherwise. Also, Betzet is not in the same place, but about 1km away, so it isn't a continuation. Zerotalk 00:00, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep per Div999 and Zero. (PS to Greyshark: the village was named "Bassa" in the Ottoman daftar of 1596, I simply don´t understand your claim that this is only about the Mandatory Period) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Then it should not say "Palestinian village" in the lead, because as you have said it was also an Ottoman and now an Israeli village, right?Greyshark09 (talk) 22:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Were the Muslims of al-Bassa Sunni or Shia?
I'm trying to sort out the history of Metawalis (Shi'ite Muslims) in Palestine, and there are contradictions regarding this place. So my question is: what other evidence is there? Zerotalk 02:50, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Napoleon described al-Bassa as a village of Metawalis in 1799 (which is probably too long ago to draw conclusions about recent times).
 * 2) The 1922 census classified all the Muslims in al-Bassa as Metawali.  The 1931 census does not appear to provide a classification.
 * 3) Asher Kaufman, Between Palestine and Lebanon: Seven Shi'i Villages as a Case Study of Boundaries, Identities, and Conflict, Middle East Journal, Vol. 60, No. 4 (Autumn, 2006), pp. 685-706 describes al-Bassa in 1920–1923 as "split between Sunnis and Greek Catholics", in contradiction to the 1922 census.
 * 4) Khalid Sindawi, Are there any Shi’ite Muslims in Israel?, Journal of Holy Land Studies, 7.2 (2008) 183–199, mentions the 1922 census enumeration in a footnote but does not otherwise mention al-Bassa at all.
 * 5) A 2006 newspaper article of Danny Rubinstein says that Hassan Nasrallah sometimes includes al-Bassa when he calls for return of the Shi'ite villages to Lebanon.
 * Now I have received mail from an acknowledged expert: the 1922 census had a mistake and this has been confirmed by people from the village. Zerotalk 06:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

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Error to be corrected on the date imported from the 1922 census
Hello, there is a serious error in the section about the 1922 census. The text here, on Wp en, mentions only 150 Mehawedi (shii muslims), and then states that another source (Kaufman) speaks also about sunnites in the village. But it is because whoever wrote from the 1922 Census source forgot one column : the first column of the report (online ) indeed also indicates 366 "Mohammedans" (sunnites, thus, I suppose), who are not mentionned on the wp page ! I cannot correct myself because of the protection (I am mostly a contributor on Wp fr). I have "corrected" on the French version. But I see that 6 six years ago (above), there was an issue about the 1922 census and the contradictions, but it is not clear to me if the issue is about the "real" census, or what is reported from it in Wikipedia (which as I said is not correct). Also, of course, we cannot use hearsay as a source. If the census is really false, what is the correct source (those I looked at used the census) ? In any case, the total number here is not correct, etc. Thank you ! --Cgolds (talk) 09:40, 9 June 2019 (UTC)