Talk:Al-Kamil

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.--KGV (Talk) 06:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Right to left!
I wanted to add that Al-Kamil was born in 1180 (as per French Wikipedia), but the right to left Arabic stuff keeps leading to weird shit going on. john k (talk) 22:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is replete with falsehoods
Yet another deceit from Wikipedia. It is a clear deliberate (transparent) attempt by Wikipedia to manipulate history to the benefit of some and detriment of others, all in the name of "freedom of expression" and "political correctness". Moslems were not barred from Jerusalem under the treaty between Frederick II and al Kamil. This is totally false, as seen below: "The treaty of 1229 is unique in the history of the Crusades. By diplomacy alone and without major military confrontation, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and a corridor running to the sea were ceded to the kingdom of Jerusalem. Exception was made for the Temple area, the Dome of the Rock, and the Aqsa Mosque, which the Muslims retained. Moreover, all current Muslim residents of the city would retain their homes and property. They would also have their own city officials to administer a separate justice system and safeguard their religious interests. The walls of Jerusalem, which had already been destroyed, were not rebuilt, and the peace was to last for 10 years." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-235539/Crusades

Moreover, Jerusalem was not ultimately lost due to "expiration of the treaty", because the subsequent renewal of the terms of the expired 10-year truce came to no avail to the Crusaders, as seen below: "The Crusades of 1239 to 1241, under Thibaut IV of Champagne and Richard of Cornwall, brought about the return of the city as well as other lost territories through negotiation. However, in 1244 an alliance of Jerusalem and Damascus failed to prevent the capture and sack of Jerusalem by Khwarezmians with Egyptian aid. All the diplomatic gains of the preceding years were lost. Once again the Christians were confined to a thin strip of ports along the Mediterranean coast." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-235539/Crusades

I am certainly no fan of the Crusaders, but the ongoing attempts by Wikipedia to misrepresent and manipulate facts under the guise of scholarship and evenhandedness to achieve dubious goals is a more pressing concern to our times. Therefore, I am going to change your deceptive article accordingly, not in the name of "freedom of expression", but in the name of the facts.

--Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oliverus Scholasticus Quote
The Oliverus Scholasticus quote in the section on al-Kamil's personality seems to be of extremely dubious provenance. I am trying to track it down now, but the version that appears seems to have come from at least four removes from the original source, viz., 1) Christopher G. Weeramantry's Justice Without Frontiers, from 2) Friedrich Heer's The Medieval World: Europe 1100-1350, the English edition of 3) Kindlers Kulturgeschichte: Mittelalter. Von 1100 bis 1350 (Volume 13), from 4) the Latin of Oliverus Scholasticus, presumably from the Historia Damiatina, but possibly from one of his other voluminous works. Noting the rather tendentious tone of the translation (which is at variance with Oliver's other characterizations of Muslims), combined with the strong political convictions of some of the hands the quote has passed through, leads me to suspect a bit of (probably unconscious) jiggery-pokery has taken place. Danhuser (talk) 11:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * It is indeed from the Historia Damiatina, and you can find the Latin text published in Die Schriften des Kölner Domscholasters by Hermann Hoogeweg (1894). The quote is at the end of Oliver's history, on page 282: "Quis dubitare potuit, quin a Deo processerit tanta benignitas, mansuetudo et misericordia? Hii, quorum parentes, filios et filias, fratres et sorores diversis cruciatibus occidimus, hii, quorum substantiam distraximus et nudos de habitationibus suis eiecimus, nos fame morientes suo cibo reficiebant et multis beneficiis suis nos benigne pertractabant, cum in dominio et potestate eorum essemus constituti." Seems to be a reasonable translation, faithfully quoted from the English version of Heer (presumably). Adam Bishop (talk) 08:05, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

POV-check and Globalize tags
One (e. g. a Christian) could also say that he was praised for ceding Jerusalem to the Christians and vilified for defeating 2 crusades.
 * 84.47.92.60 (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)