Talk:Al Lewis (actor)

Birthdate (cont.)
I hope I have solved the birthdate beyond doubt. I'll let someone else do the main edit, however. Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Octopus of Odstock (talk • contribs) 21:30, 2006 March 31 (UTC)

Same here. There's a 2 year old Abe Meister son of a house painter named Alexander in New York, listed in the 1925 New York state census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.20.173 (talk) 06:22, 2020 September 20 (UTC)

Birthdate
Al Lewis was born in 1923, not 1910. , [http:// removed makeashorterlink.com/?G2E64197C] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denki enwiki (talk • contribs) 13:04, 2006 February 1 (UTC)

Voting records say 1923; he would have registered to vote (probably) long before starting to lie about his age.Daemon8666 13:55, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't assume the date of that voter registration. You have to re-register to vote every time you move to a different address. And I doubt that voter registrations are kept on file for more than ten years (at least they are not in my state). — Walloon 19:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * His A&E Biography from 2001 says his mother, Ida Neidel, came from Russia to the US in 1913 at age 16. She met Alexander Meister, also Russian-born, and they married in 1922. Al(bert) Meister was born on April 30, 1923 and they settled into the Jewish ghetto of Brownsville. His later born brothers were Philip and Henry. Alexander died in 1929 and Ida in 1950. His sons are David, Ted and Paul Lewis. The only document the Biography actually shows with his birthdate is a school registration card from Thomas Jefferson High School in Brooklyn (which he dropped out of in his junior year). The Biography also confirms his enlistment in the Merchant Marines during World War II. Gardn108 07:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good information! Thanks for posting that. The 1920 U.S. census does have an Alex Meister, age 26, single, residing in Detroit, Michigan. Occupation: welder, steel co. Born in Russia, first language Yiddish. Immigrated in 1918, alien. — Walloon 13:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The A&E info seems to synch up. The Alex Meister in Detroit is probably someone else. Crunch 16:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Feb 5, 2006: Al Lewis' son, Ted Lewis, is stating that his father was born in 1923 and not 1910. This should settle the dispute. Here is the the link: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBIT_LEWIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-02-04-23-48-28 (Dead Link: 12/21/2006) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vandelac25 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 2006 February 5 (UTC) -

Copied from article. Denki 13:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The obits say he was 95, so I have adjusted the birthdate back to 1910, since that would make the correct age. Also did he die Feb 3 or 4? We have a conflict in the article. -Thebdj 20:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone corrected this before I got this posted so the dates both read Feb. 4th -Thebdj 20:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some dispute about his birth name. We report it here as Albert, but the Yahoo article of his passing says it is Alexander. Do we know which is right? MrB 20:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, before we start changing over and over again. We have an argument over the birth year. Now, ever obituary printed thus far states his age as 95. The two references to the contrary point to one site that does not provide an actual year just says 1910 isn't right. The other is a newgroup that mentions 1923 from an episode of Biography. Now, we obviously should try to find the correct date because there are plenty more sources in favor of 1910 then 1923. If anyone knows where we can get "undeniable" proof of age we can solve this problem outright, but it does need to be addressed. -Thebdj 20:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * On another note, if we go with 1923 as his year of birth we should ignore any other bio information in the article. Otherwise we are talking about a 6 yr old circus performer getting a PhD at 18.  While I suppose neither are totally absurd, they are both unlikely and are common bios based on the "false" birth date.
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thebdj (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2006 February 4 (UTC)

CNN just reported that he died at age 83... Don't know what to think now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.198.14.99 (talk) 22:01, 2006 February 4 (UTC)


 * CNN originally reported that he was 95. Not sure why they changed it.
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.77.64 (talk) 01:46, 2006 February 5 (UTC)


 * On Monday someone could contact Columbia University to verify the date of the Ph.D. A 6-year-old circus performer or vaudeville performer I could see, but an 18-year-old Ph.D. even in those days?  Unlikely.  Bruxism 22:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Newsday, he was 95 . I think that they are accurate. JackO&#39;Lantern 00:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We probably need to expand the "Career" section more, since it was obviously what he was best known for. JackO&#39;Lantern 00:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Age dispute needs resolution
I have added the disputed tag to this article and am going to put "some sources say 1923" in the article text. It seems to be a legitimate question that is not yet settled well enough to only include one of the dates. Gwimpey 02:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed this note from the main page (not mine originally). Gwimpey 02:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Temporary Note: This actor died on the 3rd, not the 4th, according to the cited reference. Unless you have a better reference, do not change it. Also, the CNN headline incorrectly lists his age at death as 83. Please keep this in the External links because this is the accurate representation of the reference.

In a 1997 interview Al Lewis said he was born 30 April 1910. He started in show business in 1923. See: http://mediafilter.org/shadow/S43/S43grand.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.69.88 (talk) 03:27, 2006 February 5 (UTC)

Note that AP is now using 1923 as the birth year, citing Lewis' son. If it were me, I'd sure want to see some paperwork as proof. See: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBIT_LEWIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-02-04-23-48-28 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.154.180.103 (talk) 05:16, 2006 February 5 (UTC)


 * Fox News reported his birth as 1910. Just for input. gren ??? ? 07:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Bold textSeveral years ago he ran for office and the age listed as 85 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baer cub (talk • contribs) 16:49, 2006 February 5 (UTC)

1923 birth does not fit with rest of bio: World War II, PhD, Sacco & Vanzetti
I inclined to believe that he was born in 1910 and lied at some point to appear younger when it was to his advantage to advance his career, for several reasons:
 * 1) If he were born in 1923, he would have been at prime age to be drafted to serve during World War II and, as far as I can tell, none of the bios or obits mention any military service or even alternative state-side service during the War.  Even if he were declared ineligible for military service, all American men born in 1923 were directly affected by World War II.
 * 2) His bio claims he was a member of the Sacco and Vanzetti Defense Committee as a young man.  Sacco and Vanzetti were executed in 1927.  Lewis would have been all of four years old.
 * 3) As others have mentioned, if he were born in 1923, he would have earned a PhD at age 18.  Even given that people sometimes earned college and advanced degrees at younger ages years ago, that seems quite unlikely given the other activities he was engaged in in his early days. Crunch 08:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Also,I don't think his son's statement "settles it." HIs son may have legal or other reasons for pepetuating the false birth date or simply may not have every realized that his father fabricated the date of his birth. We do not know how close the family relationship was. Crunch 08:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Al Lewis could also have been quite a liar, about Sacco and Vanzetti, about having a Ph.D., about being in the circus, etc. Two months from now he will appear in the Social Security Administration's Death Master File (Social Security Death Index), with his dates of birth and death as given on his application for a Social Security number (obtained probably no later than when he was 16-18 years old), and verified by a birth certificate if he ever attempted to collect age-based Social Security benefits — Walloon 08:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, should be interesting, although if were actually born in 1910 there wouldn't have been any Social_Security_number to apply for when he was 16-18, since these didn't start being issued until 1937, though I do think it's perfectly conceivable that he has been lying for many decades. I think Columbia would have come forward by now if he didn't actually have a PhD, but they wouldn't have challenged, or even known, that he clamed he was 31 when he was really 18. Crunch 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Columbia University already has said that they have no record of it]. And why would Lewis lie about his age when filling out his application for a Social Security number in the 1930s or 1940s? Back then, nobody but clerks in the Social Security Administration would ever see that information. More importantly, if he were born in 1910 but claimed he was born in 1923, he would be losing out on 13 years of retirement benefits by doing so. — Walloon 20:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The same article that you are quoting that says Columbia has no record of his Ph.D. does say he graduated from high school in 1927. The information from Columbia that came out during the gubernational campain was just what I was looking to debunk that Columbia claim.  I never said he was not born in 1910. I think he was.  We don't know if he needed or wanted retirement benefits, by way.  And the assumption that just because he embellished the Columbia stuff he embelisshed everything is big leap. Crunch 11:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * According to Mark Evanier at "Well, the Social Security Death Index -- which one can access online -- now has his listing up. They say he was born April 30, 1923." 24.215.162.25 13:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but that SSDI information has been part of the "Birth" section of the Al Lewis article since March 31. — Walloon 18:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * He graduated from Thomas Jefferson High School in 1927. Unless he graduated from high school at 4, it's safe to say he was born in 1910.--Fallout boy 09:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What is the source for this? Crunch 09:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops. --Fallout boy 09:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to update the actual article to make those sources more obvious. Crunch 09:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Note also that Fallout boy's first cited source states that Lewis served as a merchant marine in WWII 5 Beth 10:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw that . It's interesting that that is the only reference we find in all the Al Lewis bios to his WW II service. The merchant marine is civilian organization that serves the navy. Durin WW II, it was often staffed by men who were rejected by the military sometimes due to minor health problems, like color blindness.  Crunch 11:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Update. I just read this interview that's been in the External links section of the article all along.  Lewis says he was a Union organizer in the 1930s and served in the Merchant Marine in the late 1930s just before WW II.  The pieces are starting to come together.  If he was actually born in 1923, he is one humongous liar and we know nothing about his life because so many of the events of his life are tied to specific historical events and simply could not have happened had he been born in 1923.

What's shocking in all of this is that so many media outlets, named CNN, would not put the facts together and realize that, despite what his son says, he could not have been born in 1923 and done the things they are reporting he did. Not to get off track, but CNN is being Freyed. Crunch 12:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times currently has two articles concerning the death of Al Lewis. This one is in the obituaries: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/nyregion/05lewis.html and this one is in the Arts section: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/arts/AP-Obit-Lewis.html Both articles are by the Associated Press, yet the first article gives his age as 95, the second as 82. The first one gives his birth name as Alexander Meister, the second, Albert Meister. I say, who does the AP's fact checking anyway?

I was looking at another biography and it says he was a published author by 1941. --Fallout boy 04:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this has been suggested elsewhere, but could the reason he lied about his age be that he was not born in the U.S. and he wanted to hide that for whatever reason? Arniep 02:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How would lying about his age make a difference? In any case, if he ever obtained a U.S. passport, or ever tried to claim age-based Social Security benefits, he would have to submit a ceritifed copy of a birth certificate to the U.S. State Depatment or the Social Security Administration. — Walloon 04:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well it might throw people off the scent a bit. Arniep 10:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know the answer, but I'll give some sources of information


 * DeadOrAliveInfo mentions controversy, but favors 1923
 * IMDb gives 1910 Bubba73 (talk), 05:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

IMDB has been wrong before, and they're wrong now. Ironically this is a case of an actor lying to make himself appear older, not younger... the most likely reason is when he was auditioning for The Munsters he didn't think he'd be taken seriously for the role of Grandpa if it was found out he was actually younger than the actress playing his daughter. His parents weren't even in the US until 1913 (his mother was born in 1897, would mean she was only 13 when he was born if he was actually born in 1910!) and weren't married until 1922. His birth certficiate lists him as born in 1923, so that's pretty much the end of it. 1923 is also the year of his birth he gave to Social Security, which requires it to be verified with a birth certificate. 75.70.123.215 (talk) 18:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * He was once a guest on The Jenny Jones Show. During that appearance, he claimed to be 86.


 * If anyone cares to search for that clip, the title is: "TV Stars From The Past - The Jenny Jones Show".

63.92.241.153 (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC) Darwin


 * NOTE: The issue has been resolved. Every reliable source, including census records and his family, show he was born in 1923. Why he made himself older is anyone's guess but irrelevant now. Quis separabit?  22:25, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Just a random comment
I always have a good time on Wikipedia whenever someone famous dies - especially someone who was born way back when. There's always a huge debate on their birth dates, which for whatever reason are always bungled by the press, media or the person themselves. Even Chris Penn has a similar situation and the recently deceased Shelley Winters did as well. It just makes you wonder - exactly how many (live) people are out there on Wikipedia right now with incorrect birth dates that no one will notice until they die? ::Honestly, though - we just need to find someone who has a subscription to rootsweb.com or one of those birth-certificate sites. Al Lewis - i.e. Albert Meister - should be listed under one of the census' or whatnot. It's not that common a name. JackO&#39;Lantern 05:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

More common than you think. I could find no Albert Meisters born in exactly 1910 or 1923 in the 1930 US Census at Ancestry.com. Several near misses on both years, however, and over 100 Albert Meisters alive at the time. It is possible even his real name is obscured somehow - it wouldn't make him an "enormous liar", as entertainers of his generation often fabricated bios, a kind of industry custom. Xoloz 17:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe his birth name was Alexander Meister not Albert Meisters.  Is there anything for that? Crunch 18:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * In the U.S. census taken on January 1, 1920, I do find an "Alex Meister", age 8 (hence, born 1911). He was living with his parents, Yiddish-speaking immigrants, at 39 Watkins St., which is in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. There were only five people named Alex— Meister in the 1920 U.S. census, and the others were living in Kansas (born 1903); Michigan (1893); Lancaster, New York (1918); and Wisconsin (1891).


 * From the Social Security Death Index:
 * 1. Alex C. Meister, born 22 June 1924, died 28 Feb. 1999, residing in in Black Earth, Dane County, Wisconsin.
 * 2. Alexander Meister, 1 June 1911—May 1986, residing in Englishtown, New Jersey. (Social Security no. issued in New York, 1936-1950.)
 * 3. Alexander Meister, 9 August 1918—18 Jan. 1992, residing in Medina, Orleans County, New York.
 * 4. Alexander Meister, 7 Nov. 1903—August 1972, residing in Ringwood, Major County, Oklahoma.


 * The death of #2 seems to remove him from being Al Lewis. — Walloon 20:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There is also an Albert Meister, born 1911 in Hamburg, NY, who was tantalizing for a bit, but he died in 2002. Frustrating indeed. Xoloz 20:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Now that many of us are well into our 50s, it's disconcerting to think that  Lewis was only 53 when he became Grampa munster; to put him at merely 41 seems beyond the abilities of makeup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.42.86 (talk) 16:12, 2006 February 7 (UTC)

Check this link
http://www.wa-wd.com/h_intro.asp#allewis -- I guess this is correct? 68.160.235.135 06:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

CNN just reduced his age from eighty three to eighty two. Give them another day and Mr. Lewis would've been sixty five at the time of his demise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heptapod (talk • contribs) 07:34, 2006 February 5 (UTC) -

When the news of this guy dying hit the AP, I checked out his page here at Wikipedia. It correctly mentioned that the guy had given his birthdate as 1910 but he was really born in 1923. I thought it really funny the the whole press got this bit wrong (at first, nobody else even disputed it), but once again Wikipedia got it right - and even explained why everyone else was mistaken. Then Wikipedia changed it... because everyone else had it wrong, so they had to get it wrong too? I'm disappointed. People should have showed more restraint when editing. And the people who run wikipedia should have locked down this article soon after the guy died, since the original information was most likely accurate and written without an agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elrondsgal (talk • contribs) 08:06, 2006 February 5 (UTC)


 * Nobody "runs" Wikipedia. Crunch 09:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * because everyone else had it wrong, so they had to get it wrong too?
 * Well, all the media sources are reporting that he was born in 1923. Wikipedia is reporting that he was born in 1910.  If, as you say, everyone else had it wrong, that would indicate that Wikipedia does not have it wrong.  So, it appears Wikipedia is working just fine, thank you. --138.243.200.13 01:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We don't have a monopoly on what's correct. The only true information will be a birth certificate. Even his marriage certificates can have the wrong age. We still aren't even sure what his birth name or birth location was, so a birth certificate will be difficult to come by. He seemed to have loved to tell tall tales and purposefully obfuscated his past. --
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 21:32, 2006 February 6 (UTC)

I found 60 articles in the NYT form 1921 to 1927 mentioning the Sacco and Venzetti Defense Committee. Not one mentioned an Al Lewis or anyone named Meister. Meister is probably his original last name. This obit of his brother Philip Meister mentions Al Lewis. His brother would have been born around 1927. So if anyone has access to the 1930 census records, they could find Philip Meister (likely in New York City) then look for a nearby record for an Al (or Albert or Alex). Nightkey http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE5DE1239F936A35757C0A964948260
 * The Philip Meister who died in April 1982 was born on 9 July 1926, and his Social Security number was issued in the state of New York in 1936-1950. I have looked for him in the 1930 U.S. census, as indexed at Ancestry.com, even using Soundex variations on the surname Meister, and Phil— as the first name. The only result was a Philip Meister, age 3 years 8 months (hence born between 2 July 1926 and 1 August 1926), a resident of the Home for Hebrew Infants in the Bronx, New York City. He was born in New York and his parents were born in Russia. But there is no other Meister in that institution. The only Albert Meister in the 1930 U.S. census who was born within two years of 1923 is an Albert W. Meister, age 6, of Minneapolis, Minnesota, who has no brothers named Henry or Philip, and whose parents were born in Minnesota. And the only Alex— Meister in the 1930 U.S. census born within two years of 1923 lived near Madison, Wisconsin, with no siblings Henry or Philip. — Walloon 02:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

No sign of Al Lewis on Wikipedia Columbia University Alumni page
Seems like he should be here if he graudated, although the famous alumin list is short on entertainers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Columbia_University_people Gibbative 15:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone with a Columbia user ID and password could search the Alumni database here:

http://www.alumniconnections.com/olc/pub/COU/oldintro/oldintro.cgi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arbitrarystring (talk • contribs) 15:47, 2006 February 5 (UTC)


 * Good idea. Try under his birth name and his showbiz name. I do think that had his claims of a Columbia degree been bogus, someone would have called foul during his gubernatorial run. Political races tend to put claims like that under the microsocope even for minor-party candidates. Crunch 16:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone did call foul. — Walloon 20:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Who has removed this article's disputed status and changed his birth year to 1923? How has this been verified? The article still states he graduated from high school in 1927. I call foul.

It has been changed back...


 * I phoned Columbia University today, both the Alumni Relations Office and the Registrar's Office. Both offices informed me that all degree and enrollment verifications are done through the National Student Clearinghouse, a private organization housed online at degreeverify.com. They charge for this service. I'm curious to determine if Al Lewis, Albert Meister, or Alexander Meister earned a degree from Columbia but I don't want to pay for this information. I told the Registrar's Office that I was a journalist inquiring about the validity of the late-actor's death (well at least the second part of the sentence is true), but was still referred to degreeverify.com  Crunch 18:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If he has a doctorate in education from Columbia University, he had to write a doctoral dissertation. ProQuest digital dissertations is an online database of almost all American dissertations accepted at an accredited institution since 1861. This database is accessible at any academic library, and many public libraries. Look for a dissertation at Columbia University by Albert Meister. — Walloon 19:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I just did the search for author=Meister school=Columbia. No match. Although my librarian told me the results aren't 100% accurate because not all dissertations and theses make it in (though just for kicks I checked my own and it was there).  Anyway, the results for author=Lewis school=Columbia are, of course, a bit longer because you can't, or I don't know how, to limit the placement of Lewis to just the last name. I'll see what I can find.  My guess is that if he did not earn the degree, he may have taken some courses and maybe went on to make some donations to Columbia which is why the univeristy has turned a blind eye to his public declarations of a Ph.D.  Universities do that all the time. Crunch 20:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Update -- I can't find any "Meister" with the first name Al, Albert, or Alexander or any Lewis with those first names who earned a Ph.D. from Columbia in the early 1940s and has the dissertation listed at ProQuest. It might still be worth checking with degreeverify.com as Columbia recommended to see what that reveals, but I don't want to pay for it. Crunch 20:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Fallout Boy's citation (http://newtimes.rway.com/1998/102898/cover.shtml) earlier also includes this information: "An Oct. 12 New York Times article notes there is "some haziness" about this fact, and Columbia claims to have no record of his degree. Lewis has also been criticized for misstating his age on a voter registration form-claiming to be 75 rather than 88-which he chalked up to an attempt to 'counter the rampant age discrimination in the entertainment business,' according to The Times." Seems even Al admits to manipulating his age. Although it's kind of weird that he'd think 75 would be seen as significantly younger than 88 in this age-obsessed society. Gibbative 02:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * From the vantage point of 88, it probably seems a lot younger. It's a matter of perspective. Crunch 04:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

RIP
Thanks Al. You will be missed NTK 21:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

1930 census
There is a person in the U.S. census taken on April 1, 1930, who fits a 1910 birth. Albert Meister, age 19 (hence, born between April 2, 1910 and April 1, 1911) was living with his widowed mother Elma Meister and two sisters in Ozone Park, Queens, New York. His occupation was "checker, stock exchange". He was born in the state of New York. (Queens Co., New York, enumeration district 483, p. 9-A, family 120.) I also find him in the U.S. census taken on January 1, 1920. Albert Meister, age 9 (hence, born in 1910) was living with his parents John and Elma Meister and his sisters in Brooklyn, New York. John's occupation was "carpenter". (Kings Co., New York, enumeration district 1420, p. 13-A, family 263.) — Walloon 21:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This seems like it would be the right record. I don't think things are heavily leaning in favor of him being born in 1910; in the interview/news story that's in the external links, it mentions how he once lied on a voter registration card, putting his age as 75 (it was really 88) because of age discrimination in the showbiz industry. I'm not sure how true that is or not, but it could certainly account for the (1923-1910=13) confusion over his birth date. 71.10.26.170 05:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think this is the fellow (based on his birthdate) is recorded in the death index as having passed in 2002, hence not Al Lewis. Xoloz 16:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be so sure about that. The individual who died in 2002 was born in 1911, not 1910 (I do realize that early 1911 is within the time frame set by Walloon above, but there doesn't seem to be any argument over the fact that he was born on April 30th, whether it was actually 1910 or 1923, so the 2002 guy doesn't fit). Also, the guy that died in 2002 was born in Hamburg, NY, which is clear across the state over by Lake Erie. Plus, Walloon's info above fits with the little we know about his childhood - namely that heis mother was windowed when he was a child. 71.10.26.170 19:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * One thing working against that person being Al Lewis is that in both 1920 and 1930, Albert Meister's mother Elma is listed as having been born in the state of New York, as were her parents. Al Lewis said his mother was born in Polish Russia and immigrated at age 16. — Walloon 00:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless he truly was a vampire, then it could still be him. And being Al, reports of his deaths would be greatly exaggerated.  :)  --Coyoty 17:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

→→→I totally agree with the first paragraph and wholely believe Al was actually born in 1910 and lied as so many actors do in order to get work in hollywood. Plain and simple. Why this cannot be finalized, I do not know.Photolarry (talk) 19:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)photolarry

Marriage
No mention was given of his wives and children. I will attempt an entry, but please edit to correct if there are flaws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.226.175.229 (talk) 02:56, 2006 February 6 (UTC)

Age of wife
What year was Karen Ingenthron born? I am trying to find out the age difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard_Arthur_Norton_(1958-_) (talk • contribs) 03:44, 2006 February 6 (UTC)


 * ussearch.com lists only one Karen Ingenthron living in New York City. Her age as of 2/6/06 is 60 years. Crunch 11:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent work! I should have thought of that myself and used myfamily.com. I guess WBAI is still using a publicity photo of when she was 40 years old. I guess vanity is contagious. Unless I have the wrong photograph. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Social Security and Death Certificate
In time social security will release his correct birth date, and sites like smokinggun will post his death certificate with his social security number. There were many bad Ency. Britannica records that I found in error and wrote to them. They changed one online already: Buster Crabbe. You cant hide from Social Security, you have to send them a copy of your birth certificate or an equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 04:48, 2006 February 6 (UTC)
 * Who are you? Please sign your posts. Crunch 12:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

//I have seen incorrect, (or at least in conflict with date on their headstone), Social Security listings for personal friends. Perhaps it was poor secretarial work, in any case, not the final piece of evidence.// — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.42.86 (talk) 16:23, 2006 February 7 (UTC)


 * Perhaps your friends have been deceptive with you about their real age, or the person that gave the tombstone cutter the date was wrong. For Social Security you have to present them with a copy of a birth certificate. It is possible to have a clerical error in their database, but short of seeing a birth certificate, they are the authority. Some people don't have birth certificates, they were born at home in a rural area or born abroad, or the paper was lost in the San Francisco earthquake. For older people you first sign up for social security you fill out a form and supply your name and birthdate and your parent's name. Now when you fill in a form for a SS number you have to mail in a copy of the birth certificate, or bring it in to the SS office. You can send away for a copy of the application for anyone that is dead for around $30, it used to be $7. When it comes time to collect, or get a new card, you have to send them in your birth certificate. Tombstones rely on the next of kin to supply the date, just like in a death certificate, and the reliability depends on how knowledgeable the person they ask is. My guess is that Grandpa Al's death certificate will not contain his parent's names or a reliable birthday. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you say that? If he just started stating his age as younger occassionally later in life and his son perpetuated that to the media on Saturday, there's a big leap to having a false birth certificate and false social security record. Crunch 00:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Richard Arthur Norton is making no such claim. He is in fact saying the opposite: that the birth certificate and the Social Security records are much more likely to be accurate about a person's date of birth than a death certificate or tombstone. — Walloon 04:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)



Official - Social Security Death Index dcosten 06:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Name: Al Lewis
 * SSN #: 050-18-4924
 * Last Residence: 10044 New York, New York, New York
 * Born: 30 Apr 1923
 * Died: 3 Feb 2006
 * State and Year SSN issued: New York, Before 1951


 * DONE then, he was born in 1923! SS rarely gets this kind of thing wrong.  67.176.101.205 (talk) 23:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

He claimed both 1923 and 1910 as his birth
No person has had his age and basic bio data disputed as much as Mr. Lewis. It would be intresting to look as his life prior to the 1950's. Perhaps he lied about his age or back ground to get roles. After all few directors would cast a man in his early 40's to play a elderly man. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.112.242.121 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 6 February 2006.
 * Directors don't cast. Producers, studios, and networks do. And considering all the makeup that Al Lewis wore in the role of Grandpa, whether he was 41 or 54 would hardly matter. — Walloon 15:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a role in movies and TV called "casting director"
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 18:48, 2006 February 6 (UTC)

He was once a guest on The Jenny Jones Show. During that appearance, he claimed to be 86.

If anyone cares to search for that clip, the title is: "TV Stars From The Past - The Jenny Jones Show". 63.92.241.153 (talk) 20:16, 5 October 2016 (UTC) Darwin

NBA exec
Al Lewis is listed under Category:NBA executives, yet there's no mention of this in the article. Surely this is worth mentioning?--KrossTalk 09:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As with his age and his Columbia affiliation, I think the truth will filter out in the end. I think according to one of the referenced articles the included an interview with Lewis. he said he was an informal scout at high school games in the New York area. Crunch 11:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Be cautious and skeptical in what you write
The information in here is already being quoted by others. Make sure every fact has a link to a newssource and that every fact that he uttered is quoted as "he said" or "he claimed", rather than "he was". Findagrave is already using our info as fact and passing on his apocryphal stories. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Likewise, be careful about your use of the word apocraphal [sic].  Some of these stories told by Lewis and reported in interviews or past news stories are unverified. Some are completely verified.  Crunch 17:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC).


 * Well, which ones are "completely verified" and what are the sources? (see below). I think we are perpetuating many of the myths. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 21:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Verified unverified
please list below what is verified and what is not. Remember even if it appears in the New York Times, its still unverified until a primary source is quoted such as: Columbia University, The NBA, or a Birth Certificate, or we nail him down in the US Census.

Verified

 * Television roles and dates
 * WBIA job and dates
 * Date of death
 * Marriages
 * Number of votes received in New York election

Unverified

 * birth name
 * date of birth
 * place of birth

Unknown

 * parent's names
 * siblings
 * children's names other than Ted Lewis

This seems useful but only if we list the verified sources for the information. Otherwise we're just repeating the mistakes of the past. Crunch 20:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

evidence or lack of evidence points to apocraphyl stories

 * sacco and venzetti
 * scottsboro boys
 * columbia university
 * basketball for NBA

So much confusion
How their

One step ahead, two backward
Why did we go back to saying he worked on Sacco and Scottsboro? I am going to change the wording again if I don't hear any objections. He would have been 7 years old in 1930, if the 1923 birth date is correct. And why do we need sentences explaining who Sacco and the Scottsboro boys were, when they are already linked to full explanations. In a small biography such as this discussion of these two topics seems out of place. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 23:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you looking for objections? Well, I object. I don't think the 1923 birth date is at all confirmed. Crunch 04:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * My objection has nothing to do with 1923 or 1910. He was a teller of tall tales and all stories told by him need to be referenced as "he said", rather than writing it as a biographical fact. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Ay Yi Yi!
I was under the impression that he was in his 90s and that he was considerably older than Fred Gwynne (Herman Munster). I did get the sense in hearing him interviewed on various entertainment shows that he told lots of tales. That's my opinion. My eyes hurt just reading this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ladydayelle (talk • contribs) 00:20, 2006 February 7 (UTC)

Replaced Disputed tag
The questionable accuracy of his age should be highlighted. This brings more contributors to the talk page, and prevents misunderstandings by less careful readers, who might take 1910 as authorative. Disputed tag should stay until definite Social Security record becomes available, and dispute is resolved. Xoloz 16:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The tag says "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed." The article isn't disputed, just his age and that controversy is covered extensively and referenced properly in the article. If you want to be consistent you better add a tag to every living celebrity covered in age disputes until they die, I count 60 or more there. Better get to work! --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, though, we're just making ourselves look bad with this tag. As some people have noted, reliable media sources are using info from Wikipedia, and this tag will discourage them from doing so. I think, under the circumstances, we have done a sterling job with this article and presenting the facts - and there is is stress on this through the article - as they may or may not be. Right now, a birth certificate or public record is not available to us, but we have certainly done a competent job regardless. RA Norton is right, and I think this article is as accurate as can possibly be. I'll remove the tag, but I suspect you're going restore it.... Oh, and you said "less careful readers, who might take 1910 as authorative". Well, there's absolutely nothing in the article that mentions 1910 without mentioning 1923 in the same sentence. A reader would have to be a real dumbo not see that there is no definitive date, and I don't think Wikipedia should be written for the lowest-common denominator. Every questionable piece of info starts with "he said" or "he claimed". JackO&#39;Lantern 08:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe reliable media sources shouldn't use this information until the facts are straightened out, or at least stabilized. --Coyoty 21:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Why shouldn't they? As I said, the info we have right now is as accurate as can possibly be. Wikipedia may be one of the only websites that directly comments on the vagueness and conflicting information existing about him. This is something that I hope any media sources will be informed about in relation to Lewis, rather than them using one of the sites that just says "1910" or "1923". JackO&#39;Lantern 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

His father?
We have a big paragraph about his mother, but what about his father? Did he ever talk about him or say who he was? (And "Meister" is his father's surname, right?) JackO&#39;Lantern 23:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * perhaps his father left when he was young, or he was illegitimate and never even knew who he was? That might explain the vagueness. Arniep 15:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm thinking, and I'd really like to find out for sure. JackO&#39;Lantern 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

See reference
When did we switch to the format of (see reference #). I don't see that as the standard in the Manual of Style. Is it something new, or some experimenting in this article? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Restaurant
Has anyone found the address or a website for his restaurant? The closest in name has been: Grandpa's Brick Oven Pizza; 4973 Broadway - New York, NY 10034. But I dont think this is it. Its in midtown and has no references to Al Lewis on the website. What can you find? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 17:34, 2006 February 9 (UTC)
 * The former Grampa's Bella Gente was at 252 Bleecker Street in Greenwich Village. The building was torn down and replaced by a new one in 1999. — Walloon 19:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Breakthrough!!!
Does anyone subscibe to the New York Times premium. Today they finally discuss the Al Lewis issue.

Hey, Whose Grandpa Didn't Tell Some Tales? By DAN BARRY Published: February 11, 2006 Actors who lie about their age usually subtract, not add, years, and few would have the nerve to fudge those years by more than a decade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 19:45, 2006 February 11 (UTC)


 * I don't subscribe, but I did find this article about the column by searching Google News. The column does say that Al was in fact born in 1923, but this little summary of it which I found doesn't repeat what the evidence that the columnist used (if any) to reach this conclusion was. I'd still say we should wait until the SS death certificate is available before we make any final conclusions. Just because a columnist in the NY Times says it's true doesn't make it fact. But it certainly does lead more credence to the 1923 DOB. 71.10.26.170 05:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't subscribe either, but apparently someone who does transcribed it onto an imdb.com message board: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0506891/board/nest/36012499
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.247.73.130 (talk) 12:55, 2006 February 14 (UTC)


 * Here is the whole article for thos who'd like to read it: link removed - on spam blacklist. see history if it is needed

Hey, Whose Grandpa Didn't Tell Some Tales?

Dan Barry, NY Times

NEWSPAPERS across the country, including this one, published a small correction a few days ago. Al Lewis, the actor who played Grandpa in The Munsters, died on Roosevelt Island last week at the age of 82. He was not, repeat, not 95.

A 13-year discrepancy in the age of a minor celebrity poses no threat to the well-being of our nation. Nor does it silence the laughter that Mr. Lewis continues to coax from us through sitcom perpetuity, or diminish the passion he demonstrated as an advocate for reform and the Green Party candidate for governor in 1998, when he was 88 -- that is, 75.

Mr. Lewis was both Grandpa and another ''drum major for justice,'' said his friend, the Rev. Lawrence Lucas, a Roman Catholic priest. Al challenged the system.

But he also challenged the concept of chronology. Judging by interviews he gave over the years, much of Mr. Lewis's life was a kind of performance from which he could never retire. Even when not in makeup or costume, he still wore a mask.

Actors who lie about their age usually subtract, not add, years, and few would have the nerve to fudge those years by more than a decade. But at some point Mr. Lewis began to claim that he was born in 1910, when he was actually born in 1923. In other words, he was 13 years old by the time he was born.

Why? The prevailing theory holds that in 1964, when he was vying for the role as ancient Grandpa, Mr. Lewis worried that he might lose the job because he was actually younger than Yvonne De Carlo, the actress who would be playing his daughter, Lily. So he aged himself, a lot, in a ruse no doubt abetted by his rubbery face.

This little lie may not have mattered much at the time. But as the years passed, and as Lewis emerged in New York as a cranky radio talk-show host and freewheeling candidate, he apparently chose to flesh out those 13 phantom years of his.

He was said to have been born Alexander or Albert Meister in 1910, in the upstate town of Wolcott; officials there say they have no record of any Meister. After moving to Brooklyn, he was said to have worked on the defense committee for Sacco and Vanzetti, two Italian anarchists who were executed in 1927; challenging work for a child of 4.

When Lewis talked about the 1930's, he described himself not as a boy growing into long pants, but as an adventurous man, always in the mix of history. He said that he worked as a radio actor, circus clown, trapeze artist, medicine show professor, and union organizer in the South, where, he once said, you faced death at any moment.

He said that he appeared in Olsen and Johnson's Hellzapoppin', the Broadway hit of 1938. He said that he championed the cause of the Scottsboro Boys, nine black teenagers who were accused of raping two white women in a profoundly flawed case.

All this while he was working on a doctorate in child psychology, which he was said to have earned at Columbia University in 1941 -- or 1949. The university, though, has no record of this.

Lewis also said that he was a merchant seaman who had to abandon a torpedoed ship not once, but twice. ''You don't know what it's like to be in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean,'' he told The Shadow, an alternative newspaper, in 1997. ''There is no more lonely feeling. You see nothing, nothing, nothing.''

MAYBE this was true. Maybe Mr. Lewis did meet Charlie Chaplin at John Garfield's house, as he claimed. Maybe he did ride shotgun while escorting W. E. B. DuBois to the burial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Maybe he did retain Charles Manson as a baby sitter.

Or maybe he was just acting. Captive to his minor deceit, perhaps he chose to pose as a witness to American history: to remind people of the deprivations of the Depression, which he experienced, but also to keep certain events from slipping from the nation's memory. Sacco and Vanzetti. The Scottsboro Boys. The labor wars. The Rosenbergs. Even two zany comedians, long forgotten: Ole Olsen and Chic Johnson.

Butch Patrick, who played Mr. Lewis's television grandson, Eddie Munster, and in recent years appeared with him at conventions and car shows, described his former co-star as an entertainer above all, eager to tell people what they wanted to hear.

''He was well read, and the information he was throwing out there was accurate,'' he said. ''He just placed himself there so the credibility level would be there. That's my spin on it.''

There is no question that in his later years, which were not as late as they seemed, Mr. Lewis backed up his strong convictions with his presence and his money. He advocated prison reform, vigorously opposed the Rockefeller drug laws as unnecessarily punitive, and argued both against police brutality and for police salary increases.

His energy and passion seemed especially remarkable given his, uuh, age, which few doubted. Father Lucas vividly recalled attending Mr. Lewis's 90th birthday party, when Mr. Lewis was 77.

Even Karen Lewis, his wife of more than two decades, believed that her husband was in his 90's. That is, until his health began to fail a couple of years ago, and she came across what she called evidence while collecting documents for his hospitalization.

He always told me he was born in 1910, she said. But I don't think it matters at all.

Maybe she's right. Maybe it was just Grandpa being Grandpa. " JackO&#39;Lantern 07:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, I had feelings of deja vu while reading Barry's article. Much of it seemed to be composed from the Wiki article, mostly the leading part of it, in the fact order and phrasing. Anyone else get that sense? --Coyoty 14:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitely. I kept excepting to come to the part where it said, "according to the Wikipedia website" or "contributors to Wikipedia argued about..." Crunch 02:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

1997 Interview with Al Lewis on Democracy Now!
http://ia300130.us.archive.org/3/items/dn1997-0410/dn1997-0410-1_64kb.mp3 (Interview begins a third of the way into it.)

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I spoke to Al Lewis' publicist who lied through her teeth saying she saw a birth certificate. There is no way on this earth he was born in 1923. He was born in 1910, and I bet that if someone got real records from the state of new york that are not altered, you would see he died at age 95, not 82, and was born in 1910 not 1923 or 1922. This just goes to prove my point that hollywood celebrities can manufacture any fiction they desire with the right publicist! I believe truth should be known here. Think about the logic here. Yvonne DeCarlo was born in 1922. If they were the same age, then Mr Lewis sure aged poorly. No way, when he played Grandpa on the Munsters, he was in his late 40s and she was in her late 30s. Fact, you decide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Photolarry (talk • contribs) 18:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Iceman Cometh
Lortel Archives (The Internet Off-Broadway Database) has an Albert Lewis credited in the cast of The Iceman Cometh in 1956. Other cast members included Jason Robards, Peter Falk, Conrad Bain, and Malachi Throne, directed by José Quintero. Perhaps someone could check cast photos to see if he is Al Lewis. — Walloon (talk) 04:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

SSI Death Index
Direct link to SSI Death Index listing for future reference. (Now to get imdb.com to fix their entry.... Evan1975 (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

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Time share promotions?
Apparently Lewis was involved in a time share promotion at some point. He even got on a Detroit radio station and pitched one back in 2002 or 2003. Fox 2 Detroit did a story on it. Might be worth researching and adding to the article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENg16s5EllE 199.66.69.13 (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Birth Year Debate
After reading most of the talk page, I don't understand why there are several places where it says the date of birth is "resolved." Clearly, it isn't. It seems to me that looking up the high school records would be one of the best places to look. Surely, there is some record of when he attended and how old he was at the time, or at least knowing that he was typical age for the grades he was in. Then, it should be obvious what year, 1910 or 1923, that he was born in. It seems like some of the comments here saying, "well CNN said," or "the Social Security Admin said" is not proof of anything. Everyone knows the media get things wrong all the time. And the SSA isn't necessarily correct either. Look up the high school's records! 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:544F:E012:2320:EFE4 (talk) 00:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Referring to the Social Security Administration and SSA records, anyone born before 1936 can easily have faulty records because the SSA was not created (on paper) until 1935, and the first office was not opened until October 1936. People who had already been born before then had a lot of leeway when it came to providing proof of anything when they were registered for their social security number (which they would not get until after SSA began). Add into the mix that there were often mistakes made by recorders (establishment of hundreds of millions of new records was messy in the age before computers). For anyone born before 1936, birth or census records are often more reliable than SSA records.— al-Shimoni  (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)