Talk:Alabama (band)/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 15:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I've seen this sitting in the queue for ages, and it's a shame nobody else has looked at it, so I'm up for reviewing it

Lead

 * I'm not sure File:Alabama band.jpg has an appropriate fair use rationale on it. We do allow nonfree images on deceased people, but I don't believe that carries across to bands. The group's name makes it very difficult to find free pictures on Commons, but I can't believe a group of such standing does not have at least one live shot. As soon as a free image is found, this will have to go, I'm afraid
 * 3 paragraphs looks about right for the lead length
 * "and received numerous awards" - this is a little vague, it might be worth just mentioning specific awards such as the five ACM Entertainer of the Year wins
 * "The group disbanded in 2006" - since we've just had "the group" in the previous sentence, might it be better to simply say "They" at this point?
 * "lead to their unprecedented success" - I think "unprecedented" is POV, while they might be commercially and critically praised, I don't think they could match Dolly Parton for mass crossover success. I think we'd be better off taking that word out
 * "making them one of the world's best-selling bands of all time" - although they are indeed mentioned in the article linked, the source cited doesn't say that directly, merely that they were "one of the most successful groups of the 1980s and '90s - with a total of 43 No. 1 singles and more than 75 million records". Not sure if this is a problem.
 * The last citation in the lead doesn't seem to work. I think you want something like Erlewine

Comments on the body coming later. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  15:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Formation and early years: 1969–79

 * Do we know when exactly the group was formed, and how long it was before Cook joined?
 * For the benefit of non-locals, it might be worth just mentioning where Lookout Mountain is in relation to Fort Payne. I assumed the two places were close by but it seems they're actually in adjacent corners of the state.
 * "and the newly christened Young Country" - I'd simplify this to something like "forming the group Young Country"
 * "Christmas" should not be wikilinked and the following "1969" is redundant
 * disk jockey should be linked in full, rather than DJ
 * "rounding out the group's first lineup" - suggest "completed the group's first lineup" might be better
 * According to this USA Today source, Gentry was originally the drummer and Owen the bassist. Gentry switched to bass when Owen joined the military, which conflicts the prose that says he went to college.
 * "The group first became a band in earnest in 1972" - might be simpler to say "the group turned professional in 1972"
 * I don't think "theme park" should be linked, unless there's a specific article about the Canyonland one
 * "Gentry was a carpet-layer" - we've already been told this in the first paragraph, is it necessary to repeat it here?
 * "The trio shared at $56-a-month apartment in Anniston" - the second (online) source doesn't say that, I'd probably just drop the reference leaving the first one (which, being offline, I have to AGF is correct)
 * "The quintet decided" - the previous sentence started "The trio". I think I understand from context what is meant here, but it might be simpler to say "The group" to avoid ambiguity
 * "throughout the Southeast" - does this mean Southeast Alabama, or Southeast US generally (ie: including Georgia and Florida)
 * "In March 1973" - I think the "1973" is redundant, the previous sentence explains what year it is
 * The Tennessean source says the group moved to the Bowery, Myrtle Beach, as they heard it was a good place to get paid work. That might be worth dropping into the article.
 * "Unable to secure a record contract, Wildcountry began entering the studio on their own and recording" - suggest "The group could not secure a record contract, and began to self-finance recordings"
 * "Demo tapes sent to record companies received few responses" - suggest "The group sent out demo tapes to record companies but received few responses"
 * "The song did not receive chart success" - suggest "The song did not chart"
 * "The self-recorded and released Alabama Band No. 3 became the band's third album" - what were the first two? I don't think they were mentioned in the prose
 * "charting within the top 40 of the country charts" - suggest "reaching the top 40 in the Billboard country chart" (assuming it's that chart that's being referred to here)

More later Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Mainstream success and superstardom: 1980–85

 * "other up-and-comers" - I realise this is verbatim what the source says, but I think "other new acts" would be better
 * "their first to hit number one" - would be worth clarifying this is the country chart, otherwise "number one" could infer the Billboard Hot 100.
 * "which they initially believed to be fluke" - should be "believe to be a fluke"
 * "became their second number one on the Hot Country Singles chart" - per above comment, I'd qualify the first mention of "number one" as being on the country chart (with link) and the rest as just "number one"
 * " "Old Flame" was their next number one in February 1981, followed by "Feels So Right" in May, and "Love in the First Degree" that October." - can you clarify all three of these were number ones
 * "Owen's personal life was "falling apart" " - although this is a direct quotation from the source, I don't feel that quote marks are necessary around just two words
 * This section has the first mention of the Academy of Country Music. I'd write this as "The Academy of Country Music (ACM)" and then use ACM for all other instances
 * "Mountain Music, released in February 1982, is considered Alabama's last studio album before they encountered superstardom" - considered by whom? And I'd tone down "superstardom" and use some other word such as "mainstream commercial success" (if that's appropriate)
 * "Christmas in Dixie", a holiday song released in 1982" - I wonder if "seasonal" is better than "holiday". I know "over the holiday season" has become popular recently, but I personally think it's political correctness that hasn't caught on with the layman reader
 * "The group received two consecutive Grammy Awards for Best Country Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal, for Mountain Music and their next album, The Closer You Get ...." - as we're talking about that album in the next paragraph, it might be simpler to say that Mountain Music won a grammy, close the paragraph with that, then talk about The Closer You Get, mentioning that it also won a grammy
 * When citing the RIAA database, it seems to be the convention to give instructions how to locate the information you want to verify. Something like "Type 'Alabama', click on search". In that respect it's not too different from citing a page number in a book source
 * There's not much towards the end of this section other than just a rundown of their record releases. We did learn that Owen struggled with his father's death, what about the rest of the band?

More later Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  18:20, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Continued success: 1986–2002

 * "which sold wildly" - I don't think "wildly" is a particularly encyclopedic term here, how about simply listing chart positions and sales figures
 * "Alabama's popularity was mostly eclipsed" - to avoid repetition, perhaps "The group's popularity was mostly eclipsed" would be better
 * "the band decided to part ways with longtime producer Harold Shedd" - per WP:LASTNAME, just "Shedd" will suffice here
 * "opting for half produced by" - I think this needs rewording, as "half produced" could be a negative term, like "half assed". Suggest "instead splitting production duties between ..."
 * "the Academy of Country Music" - per above, can simply be ACM
 * " they still received gold and platinum albums with regularity" - suggest "their albums still reached gold and platinum status"
 * "In addition, their singles continued to find outstanding chart success" - I think "outstanding chart success" is too POV - I'd probably just remove this sentence
 * "The 1990 album Pass It on Down created three number one singles" - suggest "The 1990 album Pass It on Down featured three number one singles"
 * "opined that the group's harmonies" - how about "suggested that the group's harmonies"
 * " "I'm in a Hurry (And Don't Know Why)" became the record's biggest hit" - suggest "album" instead of "record"
 * ""Take a Little Trip", "Once Upon a Lifetime", and "Hometown Honeymoon" peaking within the top three" - the source given is a "best of country" list but it doesn't have any chart positions. Same problem with the next sentence; the source doesn't seem to verify the information listed
 * The end of the third paragraph in this section is a bit rigid, sentences seem to start "In 1995 ..." then "In 1996" "In 1997", "In 1998". Could you just reword things a little to make it sound less like a bulleted list year on year. If Alabama's career had become less significant than it had been in the early to mid 80s, WP:DUE might suggest you can chop the 1995-98 activity down to a single sentence, which would also fix this issue.
 * "that contained two new singles — "How Do You Fall in Love" and "Keepin' Up" — were hits". I'd split the sentence, before "were hits", then continue with "Both new tracks were hits...."
 * "number 29 on the Billboard Hot 100, representing their highest peak in 17 years" - I can't find this information in the sources given, can you help?
 * "When It All Goes South (2001) was Alabama's next release." - suggest "When It All Goes South followed in 2001"

More in a mo Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  18:40, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Farewell tour and reunion: 2003–present

 * "at the CMAs" - can you clarify what "CMAs" means in this context?
 * The Country Weekly source citing the last show in 2004 before the split says "Drummer Mark Herndon lightening the mood by declaring, "I need a job."" I think that would be worth putting in the article just to show the band are humans not just something that churns out hit after hit and album after album
 * "Herndon and the other members of Alabama had had their relationship strained over the years" - that makes it sound painful! Suggest something like "Herndon and the other group members had had a difficult relationship during the band's career"
 * "This money was allegedly factored" - "allegedly" is a word to watch. As this is a contentious event, stick to specifying exactly who claimed what and when
 * The Tennessean source says Herndon was in the band in order that the band could resemble the Beatles' lineup, which might be worth adding. More importantly, it says the other three have no hard feelings against him and wish him well, which definitely is worth including
 * "By filing the lawsuit, Alabama band attorneys mistakenly included copies of band contracts as exhibits along with their lawsuit papers, thus allowing fans a chance to look at the inner workings of the band and revealing that Herndon actually had a contractual full band share of the farewell tour" - this claim is not in the source given, and as it is a contentious event about living people, per WP:BLP this has to be properly sourced or removed
 * "(he was later given a clean bill of health)" - rather than brackets, suggest "but he was later given a clean bill of health"
 * "sans Herndon" - suggest "without Herndon"
 * "a devastating series of tornados" - "devastating" is POV (I thought this was bad enough, and I was right in the middle of it). I'd put the link to April 25–28, 2011 tornado outbreak as "the April 2011 tornado outbreak"
 * "alongside artists" - I don't think "artists" is necessary

More soon <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  19:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Musical style and influences

 * This section is a bit short. I'm not sure what can be done to expand it but from reading it it gives the impression they found one sound and stuck to it. I'm sure they varied their sound and style a little bit over the years!
 * "the group were one of the first country bands to achieve significant airplay" - do you mean bands specifically - I think The Byrds' Sweetheart of the Rodeo was at least a critical success before Alabama were formed, but that's the exception rather than the rule, I admit (and one could suggest they only became country rock by circumstance rather than design)
 * "Despite their influences from other genres," - might be worth listing these genres (rock? folk?)

Number one singles

 * I'd put this section as a list with the albums in the "Discography" section.

Awards

 * Per the earlier comment, I'd just list CMA as an acronym here
 * I don't think the list of individual awards is necessary here. We have a breakout "awards and nominations page", and it would make sense to put them there, leave the opening paragraph for this section here, and invite the reader to click on the main breakout article to learn more

Legacy

 * "Alabama has been credited with" - credited by whom, exactly?

Band members

 * "Don Perkey - drums, percussion (back up drummer 1975 - 1978)" - this is the only mention of him in the entire article, as far as I can tell, and therefore his tenure in the band has to be cited to a reliable source


 * The timeline picture cuts off the legend, even when opened in a separate link. I can't find a full photo online, but if anyone knows where to get one, it should be replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.199.113.245 (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Images

 * It's a shame there aren't any free images. Perhaps you could search for venues the band have played. Commons have lots of pictures of public buildings, and if they've got one of what was the Bowery in Myrtle Beach, that would be an ideal addition.

Summary

 * I've gone through the whole article now. This is a good and comprehensive overview of an important country band and the prose and factual accuracy is generally good. Although there are a lot of issues, all of them seem to be relatively easy things to fix except perhaps the infobox image, and for an article that's over 50K, that's to be expected. I'll put the review on hold now pending improvements. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  19:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Response
Hey there! Thanks for the review…it’d been so long I’d forgotten I’d nominated this. Any who, let’s get to a few notes. I’ve implemented almost all suggestions, but:


 * Considering there’s an entire page dedicated to the myriad of awards the group collected, I preferred the general use of of ‘awards’. It would also make the paragraph longer and I feel citing specific success at award shows is unnecessary.
 * Not sure if that’s a problem either. They’re on the wiki page for best-selling, and they use the same source I’ve employed.
 * It isn’t clear when exactly they all began to play with one another. That hasn’t been covered in the available sources, but it seems to solidify by 1969.
 * It’s unclear which came first, the army or college (although my natural inclination is to assume the former). I’ve changed it to army, though.
 * Well, the thing is that Canyonland is extremely hard to find any info about, so I included theme park as an explanation.
 * It says they relocated to Myrtle Beach, I felt that was enough.
 * Those number ones - Old Flame, Feels so Right, and Love in the First Degree, are covered by the book source.
 * Right? There is hardly any info out there about their personal lives during this period. I’m sure we’ll get a big ol’ biography on the group one day discussing such matters but in my research for this article it was very difficult to find any info on stuff like that.
 * Great suggestion about the Herndon quote!
 * I like that they wish him well, but like all things Hollywood, it seems a bit disingenuous. But of course,, no one knows the truth, so I suppose it’s best to include his statement.
 * Like you said, it’s difficult to expand upon the band’s sound and style. There’s not many sources for this kind of thing. Plus, Alabama’s sound pretty much stayed the same from 1977 to 2003 so there isn’t much I can do.
 * I meant bands specifically.
 * I mention the specific genres in the sentence preceding “Despite their…” I felt that was enough, but that is up to you.
 * Don Perkey must have been added by someone else, so that’s gone, considering not many articles list back-up drummers.
 * I just realized! I took photos of Alabama when they placed Bayfest this year! It’s no image of the band at their peak, and it isn’t very good, but it’s enough to use.

Alright, that's it. Let me know if you need much else! Thanks again. Saginaw-hitchhiker (talk) 06:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that all looks reasonable to me. I generally don't expect a nominator to agree with all of my comments, and as long as they can give reasonable argument against them (as you have), then that's fine. The only outstanding point I think is the "Awards" section. I'm not particularly against specific awards being mentioned here, but the GA criteria state articles must comply to the list-incorporation guidelines, so rather than a straight list, put the most notable awards into prose (with sources). That should resolve this. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I think there were only a few things outstanding to do on this. I've gone in and fixed them myself (mainly just tidying up citations and ensuring that everything is verifiable). The other thing is I'm not sure you can keep the previous non-free image of the band. I appreciate that it contains a lineup that has split, but I don't believe that's a valid fair-use rationale unless one of them dies, as all four could reform (however unlikely they think that will be) and somebody could take a free photo then.
 * Anyway, in the meantime, all issues have been reasonably resolved, so I can now pass the review. Well done. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  22:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)