Talk:Alan García

Economic facts?
Someone with the facts should correct the addition in the following sentence:

"According to studies of the INEI and PNUD [3], around the start of his presidency, 41.6% of Peruvians lived in poverty. During his presidency, more than five million Peruvians were added to the ranks of the poor; the percentage increased 23% (to 55%) in 1991."

I could be misunderstanding some statistical subtlety, but 41.6% + 23% = 64.6%, not 55%.


 * Either way it is very vauge and misleading, honestly. I am just now looking at a statistic that quotes 64% under "the poverty line."  I think it honestly depends on who's drawing the line.  Considering that there was extreme hyper-inflation between 1985-1990 in Peru, the poverty estimate would have to be quite arbitrary when comaring the two, in any case.  --Ccosta 02:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think your most receent edit improved this article, but I moved the location of some of your material.

One phrase: both workers and companies suffered by his mismanagement of the economy and the labor laws. is too POV for my taste. I think we need to explain what happened, saying something like "Alan passed law X, which had the result Y" and let the reader draw his own conlusion that it was mismanagement (or quote someone to this effect).
 * Agreed. I reinstated the paragraph and in the following days will work on improving it.  Please don't revert yet.--AAAAA 06:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, it is my understanding that the Labor Stability Law was passed by Velasco in 1973 and that just Garcia modified it, but I don't know exactly how or what the effect was. (See: ) If you have any more information about this, it would be very helpful. Also, it would be useful to state the per capita annual income in 1960. Do you have the figure at hand? -- Viajero 15:15, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * You are right in the sense that Velazco, with his communist-type laws, started the real destruction of the Economy of Peru. But Alan Garcia "finished" it.  The labor stability law, in essence, means that once you hire somebody, you cannot fire him/her unless you get permission from the ministry of labor.  Your company can be going broke, very low sales, no money to pay for expenses, but STILL, if the ministry doesn't allow you to fire, you cannot fire.  In my opinion, it is an INCREDIBLY STUPID LAW.  Furthermore, the "stability" was "stable" for the workers already with a job, but make it extremely difficult for people without work to actually get hired, because companies were scared of getting "stuck".--AAAAA 06:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I will try to get the 1960 per capita income soon.--AAAAA 06:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

AAAAA, I am sorry, but yours was an unfair request. I took the useful information from that paragaph and integrated it into the text, including the statement in the intro that his adminstration caused "economic downturn". Just to reinsert that paragraph is a bad idea, since information is now repeated. You are not paying attention to the structure of the article, which is just as important as the content. Also, as I stated above, assertions such as "largely destroying the economy" and "both workers and companies suffered by his mismanagement of the economy and the labor laws" are contentious and need to be better supported, and I thought we agreed on that. Leaving POV statements like these in the text with the comment "I will work on it later" is not acceptable. While it is true that Wikipedia articles are works in progress, we have to ensure they are in the best possible state at any given time, incomplete or otherwise. If and when you have more supporting material, we can analyze Alan's legacy further. -- Viajero 11:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * One more thing. This isn't really the right forum for discussing labor law, but European countries have similar laws to protect employees. You cannot simply fire someone without due cause; there are very clear guidelines about how that is done. You may think these laws are stupid, but they ensure social stability and cohesion and haven't prevented Europe from becoming an economic powerhouse. In any case, it would be very helpful to be able to state what the requirements of the 1973 labor law were and how García applied and/or modified them. -- Viajero 12:15, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong to protect employes. That is true. The problem was that this laws were over used by the Garcia Administration to secure jobs for the APRA party. Unfortunately (as I already stated), people that didn't fit on the job were often put on high position due to his affiliation with the party. I would get more information regarding the wrongfully use of this laws. However, I will not get involve on the modification of this article. Messhermit 05:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

AAAA, please, look at the structure of the text before you make changes. Your last edit doesn't work, because the third paragraph now begins The economic turbulence of the time acerbated social tensions in Peru, which depended partly for its effect on what had preceeded it, ie, economic problems --> social unrest. By moving the two paragraphs on the economy to the end you removed that explicit conection, thereby weakening the narrative.

As the article stood, it was in more or less chronological order and had an effective structure. Let's leave it that way. I completely agree with you that this article needs work, but what is first and foremost of import is specific data and examples, such as on labor policy. It also is also missing standard basic biographical information over his first 35 years. I would be more than happy to help, but I can't get to it over the next few days. Once we have started fleshing out the article, then we can think about sectioning and restructuring it, as need be. -- Viajero 16:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I´m adding a timeline of the Presidents of Peru. Alan Garcia is included, so I'm putting it on the Article. Messhermit 03:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Spanish book titles
Dynamax, have all the book titles you list been translated into English? If not, is it a good idea to give them ad hoc English names? -- Viajero | Talk 02:18, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Viajero, I believe none of his books have been translated into English. I was really unsure whether to give them english names so as the reader could grasp the title of them. But if they look better in Spanish you can go ahead and edit the names :). Whatever makes the article look better, go ahead... --Dynamax 05:12, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

If they've not been xlated, then what I like to see is the Spanish title, in italics, followed by a gloss into English in parens (which can be replaced by the actual title used if and when the book gets published in English. Oh, and watch out for contradicting title capitalization rules in the 2 languages. Thus:
 * Alan García is the author of several books on the Peruvian reality and Latin America. His works include: El futuro diferente ("The Different Future"), xxx xx ("To the Immense Majority"), xx xxxx ("The Financial Disarmament"), xx xxxxx ("The False Modernity"), El Mundo de Maquiavelo ("The World of Machiavelli"), xx xxxx ("The Regional Revolution"), xx xxxx ("Alan García's defense"), xx xxxxx ("My Government Made the Regionalization"), El nuevo totalitarismo ("The New Totalitarianism") and xx xxxx ("The Infamous Decade: Foreign Debt 1990-1999").

Actually, with ten titles in there, it's beginning to look well clumsy. Perhaps a bulleted/indented list would be better, where you could indicate years of publication, ISBNs, and the rest?


 * El futuro diferente ("The Different Future"); Grijalbo, 1989; ISBN 9684198167
 * xx xxxxx ("The False Modernity"); Xxxxx, 19xx, ISBN 000000000

IN any case, you kind of have to give the original Sp. title, so anyone interested can look it up; at the same time, as they're so fond of saying, this is the _English_ Wikipedia -- if you don't gloss the titles, then it's pretty much useless information for 90% or more of your public. –Hajor 14:56, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Here are the titles in Spanish,

El futuro diferente, A la inmensa mayoría, El desarme financiero, La falsa modernidad, El mundo de Machiavello, La revolución regional, La defensa de Alan García, Mi Gobierno hizo la regionalización, El nuevo totalitarismo y La década infame: deuda externa 1990-1999.

I found some on barnes and noble and at amazon, perhaps the rest could be at the Peruvian National Library in Lima.

El mundo de Machiavello: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=QC7risEBiR&isbn=9586015122&itm=10

El nuevo totalitarismo: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9580606080/qid=1116701642/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-3069599-1999951?v=glance&s=books

El futuro diferente: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9684198167/qid=1116701642/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-3069599-1999951?v=glance&s=books

You're right about the look of those ten titles. Bullets could help.. --Dynamax 18:48, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Latest edits
As per all the news outlets, Garcia was not hiding in his room but rather “This next day, prosecutors and police came to his Lima home. Garcia went into his bedroom on the second floor, saying he was going to call his lawyer, said Interior Minister Carlos Moran. A few minutes later a shot was heard.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.56.192.95 (talk) 12:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe him being a member of Social;ist International wwarrants inclusion in the opening though it is worthy to go in the text. I have avoided using the word terrorrism as it is, like dictator, a word frowned upon in wikipedia,. and there is no need for its inclusion in this case. Wetre the blackouts solely in Lima? Because he ruled the whole of Peru and if not why has Lima been singled out? SqueakBox 15:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The Shining Path terrorists (this is the Talk page, and although the word maybe frowned upon in WP, for me Shining Path are simply terrorirsts) mostly targeted electric towers that cut off power to Lima, because that is were it really "hurt". When Shining Path attacks were directed to the provinces, they were not considered such an important threat to the country.  It was only when they began bombing Lima when they "rose to another level".  Similar to Bin Laden...when he bombed embassies or other places outside the U.S., almost nobody knew him.  Once he hit the Twin Towers in New York, the whole world now knows who he is.--AAAAA 15:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying about Lima. For ther record I think Shining Path are terrorists, Lori Berenson is geting what she deserves, etc, but it is the wikipedia dislike of the word terrorist that I am defending not my personal viewpoint, SqueakBox 15:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm moving some of those things down to Legacy instead, cause right now that opening sentence is getting pretty long. QVanillaQ 17:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I added it to the section on his Presidency instead. I'll also go thru the article in general soon and see if I can clean it up a little. It's pretty disjointed right now.

IP Blogs
A certain IP keeps on adding his blogs onto the talk page of Peru related articles, it is really starting to get on my nerves. See this.--Jersey Devil 20:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Individuals don't belong to the Socialist International, only parties; APRA is a member of SI, not García, so I removed that line. Ak13 23:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

About "Terrorism"
Maybe the word "terrorism" is frowned upon by wikipedia, but this is generally what the violence caused by the guerillas (especially urban car-bombs, of which there were hundreds upon hundreds) is referred to as in Peru. Maybe you will find a handfull of people on here who would rather call it a "people's struggle" but it was(and is) simply terrorism.

Also, referring to the Sendero Luminoso or shining path as the terrorists IS misleading, as the MRTA had a good share of the blame as well.--Ccosta 08:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Whilst I certainly agree that the acts conducted by the Shining Path where savage, I have a strong respect for NPOV policy and I really dislike the use of the word "terrorist". With regards to the MRTA being labeled as "terrorists" as well, I'd have to disagree as well on different ground however as the Truth Commision itself recongnized that whilst the MRTA was responsible for deaths during their campaign they wore uniforms identifying themselves and attacked mainly military targets unlike the Shining Path which openly attacked civilians as a "legitimate weapon of war".--Jersey Devil 06:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Jersey Devil, I don't think "disliking" the word terrorism is a good argument against using it. There are no polls available, because the subject might seem pointless, but I'm pretty sure that most people regard Shining Path as a terrorist organization. It even complies to the commonly used definition of "deliberate violence against civil population with political goals". I'll check the Truth Commission's position on the subject, if there's any. Chimba 19:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes
There are not any official results yet only exit polls please stop adding language such as "virtually the next President" not only is it unencyclopedic but WP:NOT a crystal ball. Only the exit polls should be mentioned not that Garcia is "the next President of Peru" as that implies that it has been officially confirmed.--Jersey Devil 02:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, for IP users, please try and provide sources for any relevant info you wish to add. Just click the external link button when you edit and this comes up link title and put the link there if you don't know how to do the references that is fine just leave the link when you are citing something and I can do the references for you. Thank you.--Jersey Devil 02:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV concerns
This article seems extremely critical in a non neutral way. I will soon add the template unless it starts becoming less so, so I thought I'd give fair warning. Judgesurreal777 15:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed a few sentences to tone it down a bit, but I might have missed some. I agree that there is not much positive stuff, especially with respect to his first presidency, but individual statements are largely accurate. I'm more bothered by the lack of sources when citing anonymous claims ("Some Peruvians have called him...", "Some supect...", "his critics claim...").--Gabbec 16:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

His first presidency is cited in similar ways in most media outlets (with regards to the hyperinflation, the growth of Sendero, etc...). I do agree with Gabbec on some of the stuff though, since the election began we've had POV pushing IPs coming into Peruvian-related articles to make those kinds of changes. I ask that you not put up a POV tag at least for now to give myself and Gabbec the opportunity to clean this out some more. This is a current event and alot of people are going to be viewing this page.--Jersey Devil 21:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Jersey Devil makes a good point: sadly the most notable aspects of his first presidency, even for most foreign media, were pretty much all negative. So, while there are some instances of deliberate POV, it is rather natural that the negative dominates. Anyway, the article does need some cleaning up, so let's work on it. Judgesurreal777, please point at any specific examples of objectionable material if possible. Thanks, --Gabbec 00:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Not as bad as I thought, but here are some statements that are biased or need sources:

"The García administration unsuccessfully sought a military solution to the growing terrorism, allegedly committing human rights violations which are still under investigation."

'''In this section, it needs to be clearer his role is not established, to list it like this makes it look very much like he killed these people, and if he did, it still needs citations. ''' "These include the Accomarca massacre, where 47 campesinos were gunned to death by the Peruvian armed forces in August 1985, the Cayara massacre (May 1988) in which some thirty were killed and dozens disappeared, and the summary execution of more than 200 inmates during prison riots in Lurigancho, San Juan Bautista (El Frontón) and Santa Bárbara in 1986. According to an official inquiry, an estimated 1,600 forced disappearances took place during García's presidency. His own personal involvement in these events is not clear."

This paragraph is repetitive and speculative without sources.

"García's presidency left the country with hyperinflation, isolated from the international financial community, with reserves of minus US$900 million, continuous subversive activities by the Shining Path, great increase in poverty levels and an electric train multi-million investment in Lima that was never finished. His critics claim the many poor decisions he took while in office created an environment conducive the rise of an authoritarian leader like Alberto Fujimori. Some suspect García and APRA cut a deal with Fujimori during the 1990 election, backing him in return for immunity, so as to prevent Mario Vargas Llosa and his FREDEMO party, then leading in the polls, from coming to power. During the campaign, FREDEMO had promised to investigate corruption in the García administration."

This sentence stood out as an emphasis on the negative, the place he lost as opposed to the places he won being emphasized.

He will be the new president of Peru after winning approximately 53% of the nationwide vote despite losing key economic & tourist areas such as Cusco, Arequipa and mining areas such as Huancavelica, Junín and jungle areas including Loreto, Amazonas and Madre de Dios.

And that's what I see. Judgesurreal777 16:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi all: I was reviewing some article history and came across some thoughts regarding a sentence I originated. The reason I originated the above sentence had absolutely no "negative" motive (nor effect, in my own OPINION). I wrote it in the way I found most succinct to accurately reflect the true divergence that occured at the vote in a balanced/NPOV way, eg. neither to allow a cheerleading misconstruction of his clear majority win to be painted as a nationally homogeneous endorsement of Garcia/APRA, nor to leave the opportunity for opponents to promote an impression that he "barely squeaked in," which would be equally untrue.

Further, as JOJO points out, those people who have had the opportunity to know Peru in relative depth can appreciate the importance of Peru´s distinct regions in themes including, but not limited to, "ease of governability." I believe this point is borne out even further as evidenced by the results of the Nov. 19, 2006 elections when APRA saw significant reduction in its number of Departmental Presidencies, and notably by being defeated less by "national"parties, but more frequently by distinct "regional" movements.

Tagging NPOV
Gotta tag it, it is not neutral, feel free to remove once concerns have been addressed :) Judgesurreal777 22:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What concerns? Please state your concerns which you obviously have as to have put the neutrality notice on the articcle. Ras Billy I 01:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Umm, the section right above this one are all unsourced or biased statements that need to be fixed. Judgesurreal777 15:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * do you mean in the talk page, or the article? My statement for example in the talk page was biased, I will admit that, but it's not part of the article.  --Ccosta 02:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Second Term dates given
I'm wondering why it is listed July 28 2006 - July 28 2011. I understand that under the current constitution and laws these are the planned dates for the second term, but should they be listed as factual term dates before this has happened? Something could easily happen, just look back to 1992 for an example.

The breakdown of districts where AG lost is very interesting to anyone who is familiar with the demographics and culture of Peru. Aside from being a tourist center, for example, Cusco is a center of indigenous power and pretty poor as well. I'd like to know even more, i.e. which way did Ayacucho, the former locus of Sendero power, vote? It would also be interesting to analyze the reasons people gave for voting one way or another. There has been a certain amount of testimony of people crossing their fingers as they voted for Garcia, wanting to believe his claims that he has learned the lessons from his first terms failure.

I'm curious to know how much the people wanting to tag this article actually know about Peru: is their reaction simply editorial reflex or based on their own POV?

A personal perspective: Everyone I know in Peru who was even close to adulthood at the time of AG's first term agrees that it left the country a terrifying basketcase and that the fear of a return to the bloody chaos they attributed to AG's fecklessness led to Fujimori's dictatorship. The scariness of the situation in the highlands, and the Sendero's indiscriminate fear-inducing slaughter of indigenous peoples (is this an acceptable circumlocution in lieu of "terrorism"?) on every level of society - yes there are non-white middleclass in Peru - are thoroughly documented.

Sadly, the upper and middle classes in Lima (actually the formerly suburban newtowns of Miraflores, Barranco and San Isidro (no one middleclass lived or worked in the historic center anymore as it had become a slum overwhelmed by "Serranos," indigenous people fleeing the terror in the highlands) turned their faces from the disaster afflicting the mostly indio highlands until bombs started going off in Miraflores. The bloodiness and chaos of this period cannot be overemphasized, regardless of WP's NPOV policy. Maybe one doesn't want to draw a cause and effect link?

This is my first communication to the discussion page, so if it's out of line please let me know.

Jojo40 19:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro
I reverted this edit by User:K4zem. Alot of that info is still relevant to the article and it is not of such a large size that it is necessary to remove.--Jersey Devil 11:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I did the same thing. So far, User:K4zem has not provided a reasonable explanation behind why is that information being constantly removed. Messhermit 12:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

If he doesn't respond here and make a case then we really have nothing to go by to explain his edits and I think justified in our reverts. I already left him a message in his talk page but he doesn't respond. Perhaps, since he is Venezuelan, he is more comfortable with Spanish.--Jersey Devil 18:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Mi intención era agregar la nacionalidad y profesión del personaje y eliminar redundancias, de todas formas he decidido no volver a intervenir en este artículo. Bye.--K4zem 11:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Alan García Mentally ill
I haven't seen any information about Garcia's mental & psico' illness. There should somthing about such impt thing.--Walter Humala 20:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh?! lol --Dynamax 21:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he is right. I heard my cousin (who was born and raised in Peru and is pro-Garcia and pro-Aprista) say something about his illness as being the reason he kicked that indigenous man during the pro-Aprista parade.--Jersey Devil 00:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Mmmm... true, but you have to remember that sometimes those types of rumors sometimes are merely political bias against the person. If that is the case, then we should also state that in Peru he is also known as "Caballo Loco/Wild Horse". Messhermit 12:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe I should wait a year of government on Perú to put other new rumors 'bout Garcia's attitude on this discussion desk. PD: The indigenous man García kicked during a nerve attack was a mechanical engineer. --Walter Humala 01:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that covering the mental illness rumours about Alan García does need more than opinions. It's widely believed that he consumes lithium, and that he had a sleep-cure during his first term, but nothing is proved. Although, it can be included something about the rumours, quoting them as such, and maybe his "Caballo-Loco" nick. I don't know if it meets the wikipedia biography criteria. I found this: http://www.caretas.com.pe/2001/1669/articulos/depresion.phtml Chimba 00:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Caretas is pretty well established as a reliable Peruvian media source. So I would say any information in that article you can put into the bio so long as it is properly cited in the article--Jersey Devil 04:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you want to see something funny?? see here?? http://delucio.com/blog/wp-content/images/Alan_Garcia_2.jpg .I dont care if he is mentally ill or not, But thousands were killed by pooverty in his goverment. Dont forget hundreds of dead by harsh reprisalls to inosents commoners.

If you are interested in political scandals try to learn spanish, you will find a lot of info about him and all the corruption during 85-90. Bye, best wishes,  A peruvian

P.S : See a video of Alan Garcia dancing the teets dance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ssjPols0t0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.33.9 (talk) 14:45, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Images
We need some images of Garcia in his first term, early political career, and early life (or of events associated with these). If you are going to upload them please make sure that they are in fact fair use.--Jersey Devil 16:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, get a better picture of him so you can actually see what he looks like and not just his profile!

Name
? Ludwig Gabriel ????85.8.124.13 16:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC) It's his full name. I saw it on his registration which was once made public. Surge79uwf 14:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Garcia-Humala Screenshot.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What are his political positions?
Here we have a long article about a politician, yet it fails to mention the most important aspect of any politician: the positions he stands for. The only thing we learn is that he likes the death penalty. Anything else? AxelBoldt (talk) 18:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Assassination attempt?
When? Can you document or cite anything? Not mentioned in the article either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GenQuest (talk • contribs) 23:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

A quick look around the internet shows no sign that this gentleman was EVER a target for assassination. GenQuest (talk) 19:31, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Removed text
Below is the text that was removed from the article since it did not have any citations. Some portions have been omitted since it is mainly editorialized wording or already included in a different section.


 * "His long-time ally Jorge del Castillo represented him as his lawyer and performed very heavy lobbying to allow García to legally return to Peru. After Del Castillo was elected to Congress, he had much more leverage for García's defence. The main accuser of the former president, Congressman Fernando Olivera, left Peru after Fujimori's fall. Fernando Olivera still follows his accusations against García and remains an avid critic."


 * "His campaign election theme was that he was the most experienced candidate and thus the most prepared, as he had made mistakes before as President, and had learned from them. He attributed the problems of the Peruvian economy in his first presidency to the economic problems of Argentina and Brazil at the time. He distanced himself from accusations that he had been protected by Fujimori during his exile, and he would switch the topic when he was asked about his endorsement of Fujimori in the 1990 election."

If you believe more of the removed text should be included, add it below.ZiaLater ( talk ) 14:04, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2019
Hello, I would like to request a petition of being editor on this page. I have been a contributor of the article for many years, I am from Peru, and have a strong knowledge of the person's life and contribution of Peruvian history. I have reverted vandalistic edits against him many times, as he remains a polarized figure. I promise full neutrality in the article, if that is brought into question. 50.201.95.250 (talk) 21:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. NiciVampireHeart 21:59, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

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 * AlanGarcíaPérezPerú2005.jpg