Talk:Alan Hale Sr./Archive 1

Going to Ad Alan Hale Jr. Adopted
Just in case there are some big Alan Hale Sr and Jr fans out there who might get mad, I am going to add the factoid that Alan Hale Jr. was adopted. I first learned of this when Turner Classic Movies was showing a series of his films and noted the fact and the uncanny resemblance between the two. (Someone do a DNA test quick.) The only reference I found on line was a New York Times reference, repeated elsewhere. So speak up quick if there's a problem! Carol Moore 14:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
 * Adopted? You CAN'T be serious!!!  Try again.97.73.64.145 (talk) 20:29, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 15:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

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Minor Error
There is a part that reads: "28 years after his initial performance (possibly the longest period for an actor in the same role in movie history)" However, this is beaten by Michael York in the Role of D'Artanian, in Richard Lester's 1973 film "The Three Musketeers" and again reprising the role in 2003 in "La Femme Musketeer". You can look it up here:Michael York (actor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.218.98 (talk) 09:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Another Error
The part that reads: "reprised the role sixteen years later in The Adventures of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone," That is incorrect. It was his son, Alan Hale Jr. that played Little John with Errol Flynn in that movie. I think editors get mixed up when Alan Hale Jr dropped the Jr from his name in 1950 when his dad died. You can see here that this is Alan "The Skipper" Hale, CED Magic Rose Paul 08/01/2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.199.42 (talk) 20:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

This is another error- by SineBot. Alan (The Skipper from Gilligan's Island) Hale Jr. was born in 1921 which would have made him 17 or 18 years old in 1938 when The Adventures of Robin Hood was made. That was absolutely Alan Hale Sr. as Little John in Robin Hood. Hale Sr. played in at least 6 or more films with Flynn, almost always as Flynn's sidekick.24.146.168.81 (talk) 01:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Three Stooges?
The article says Alan Hale was in several movies with the Three Stooges. Which ones? I don't recall ever seeing him in any of their movies. Are you sure you haven't confused him with Vernon Dent?97.73.64.145 (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't been able to confirm any Three Stooges movies including Alan Hale, Sr. via Web search, but there is no doubt that Vernon Dent acted with them, not that it is relevant, since there is little resemblance between Dent and Hale. In any case, if no one can find a reliable citation either way, this should be removed. David Spector (talk) 20:40, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Won't post on Facebook
Another page that won't post on Facebook timelines because its URL has a period at the end, yikes. 50.54.231.229 (talk) 16:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

problem w/ "invention of folding theatre chair"
The source used to claim Hale's inventions is not an especially credible one for inventions. I've just done a fair amount of looking for just the folding theatre chair and can find no credible evidence that Hale was its inventor. In fact, the patent for inventing the folding theatre chair was issued in March 1884 (before Hale was even born), patent no. 295,261 issued to Steele Mackay. (See Mangrum, Richard A., "Steele Mackaye: Inventor-Innovator."Thesis, Master of Science, North Texas State University (Denton, Texas), 1970. http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc131337/m2/1/high_res_d/n_04232.pdf ). A patent abtract by Howe, Morgan, Oom, and Spencer in 1956 for innovations for folding theatre chairs, patent 2828803, gives intervening patents, none of which include Hale (http://www.google.com/patents/US2828803 ). And a history of the company American Seating has folding theatre chairs prior to Hale's birth. This seems pretty compelling evidence that he did not invent the folding theatre chair. I'm going to remove that element in the article and will do research on the other two items mentioned. Cygnature (talk) 03:55, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

OK. More research: turns out it was SLIDING theater chair, not a folding one. I'll add this and a more credible reference into the article. Cygnature (talk) 04:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 26 January 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No move. Several solutions were proposed, but none gained sufficient support. The proposed (Sr.) got no support and Alan Hale is not available as there's no evidence that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC among all subjects of that name, including his son who was also credited as just "Alan Hale". However, it was noted that the "Sr." serves as natural disambiguation, so I'm closing as no move. Cúchullain t/ c 16:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Alan Hale, Sr. → Alan Hale (Sr.) – The article was renamed to the proposed title, but I had it reverted by someone else. This should be discussed. Roman Spinner should explain this kind of disambiguation. Speaking of disambiguation, parenthesizing "Sr." makes the name unusual. Of course, Alan Hale (actor) would be possible with a hatnote distinguishing the guy's son, "Skipper" unless that would be confusing. George Ho (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 08:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 1. When we create headings for actor biographical entries, it would seem that importance should be attached to proper form of the performer's most frequently referenced stage name. A key example: for a number of years Wikipedia entries for Lon Chaney and Douglas Fairbanks were titled "Lon Chaney, Sr." and "Douglas Fairbanks, Sr." and were not accessed directly, but through disambiguation pages. Eventually a form of consensus determined that because these two actors were top-tier stars of legendary stature, who were never billed as "Sr.", their main title headers should highlight them as stand-alone WP:PRIMARYTOPICS with hatnotes pointing to their respective sons. Mention may be made of a couple of related instances (Noah Beery and Jason Robards), where the character actor fathers, at the end of their careers, did acknowledge their sons' rising prominence by (irregularly) submitting their stage names as Noah Beery, Sr. and Jason Robards, Sr. during their final few years as actors.


 * 2. As for Alan Hale, he was likewise never billed as "Alan Hale, Sr." (AFI Catalog, IMDb, TCMDb and AllMovie list him as "Alan Hale"). However, unlike uniquely named superstars Lon Chaney and Douglas Fairbanks and their namesake sons, "Alan Hale" is a more common name borne by a few other men who are also sufficiently notable to appear in Wikipedia. As a result, there is a need for a qualifier and if "(Sr.)" is disliked and "(actor)" seems incomplete because his actor son, Alan Hale, Jr. was also billed as "Alan Hale" (most prominently in the opening credits of Gilligan's Island), another option may be the frequently-used standby, Alan Hale (actor, born 1892). &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment. Interesting problem. IMDB solves it by using Alan Hale for this actor, and Alan Hale, Jr. for "the skipper" son. .  I suggest we follow suit.  Move this article to Alan Hale.  A prominent hatnote to the son should be more than sufficient. --В²C ☎ 22:44, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep as is. Alan Hale Jr dropped the Jr late in his career so moving to Alan Hale would be inaccurate. Nohomersryan (talk) 15:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose/Keep as is. Well-known as "Alan Hale, Sr.", and WP:NATURALDIS and all that... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:36, 13 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 April 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: MOved &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 09:49, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

– This needs discussion. I am neither for nor against omission of commas. However, I don't like undiscussed moves; certain moves gain controversy. Also, MOS:JR does not require omission of commas, even when it prefers the omission. Therefore, it all comes down to consensus. Speaking of consensus, I don't think I really need to cite RfC that very few may know. George Ho (talk) 19:47, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Alan Hale, Sr. → Alan Hale Sr.
 * Alan Hale, Jr. → Alan Hale Jr.
 * Per the discussion above of a few months ago, Sr. should just be Alan Hale. As for Jr., he dropped the Jr. after his dad died, and didn't use it in his best known roles, so he's a one-off. Shouldn't a note about this RM alert Wikipedia film and television projects? Randy Kryn 23:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Randy, let it go. there is consensus to retain Sr and Jr and to keep them as they are. Can you change your vote right away and discuss the commas instead? --George Ho (talk) 23:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I confused you with Roman Spinner. George Ho (talk) 23:33, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I, too, confused you for something Roman. In any case, neither of these guys seemed to care much about the Sr. and Jr., and Jr. shed his Jr. as soon as the father died. So, in Support, might as well go with the slightly recently-culturally favored commaless form in this case. Randy Kryn, Jr. 1:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:JR. Nothing controversial here.  Dicklyon (talk) 03:18, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:JR and above. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:18, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name
Standard naming conventions has a comma before Sr. and Jr., so this and his sons page should be moved because the standard writing used by most outlets would be "Alan Hale, Sr.". Nobody uses it the other way and it just looks wrong. 67.253.250.154 (talk) 04:07, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Name change
Roman Spinner, can you change the title back to "Sr."? This needs discussion first. --George Ho (talk) 10:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * George Ho, thank you for requesting a discussion. I was uncertain whether there would be consensus for a change of this nature following two earlier discussions. However, after examining those two discussions, I decided to WP:BE BOLD at year's end/start and move it nonetheless. Since both discussions concerned minor modifications (1: removal of parentheses; 2: removal of comma), such a move did not seem to be an obvious violation of consensus. However, a discussion request is welcome and, if you wish, could also proceed as "Alan Hale (actor, born 1892) → Alan Hale Sr.", unless you feel that such an arrangement would create an unfair advantage for one form over the other. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 15:53, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've asked for a revert of the undiscussed move, which seems to add a lot of unnecessary disambiguation. Dicklyon (talk) 18:23, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As this has been the subject of RM discussions already, it should not be moved without a new consensus. A new RM is of course welcome, but the article should go back to its previous title first.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:28, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 1 January 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved per consensus that it would be inappropriate to retitle this. --  Dane  talk  00:26, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Alan Hale Sr. → Alan Hale (actor, born 1892) – the header "Alan Hale Sr." is historically inaccurate per MOS:JR, "Using Jr., Sr., or other such distinctions as a disambiguation technique is advised only for cases in which the name with the suffix is well-attested in reliable sources." All film encyclopedias and references (as well as online resources such as (AFI Catalog, IMDb, TCMDb and AllMovie) unanimously indicate "Alan Hale". His star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame depicts "Alan Hale", as does his gravesite nameplate. "Alan Hale Sr." had never been his WP:COMMONNAME and, since he appeared in hundreds of films, Wikipedia cast listings in all of those films which indicate an actor named "Alan Hale Sr." are also historically inaccurate by not reflecting his on-screen billing. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Neutral – There are a fair number of 20th century book refs (that is, before they could have been influenced by WP's article title) with the "Sr." designation. I'm not opposed to finding an alternative, but I think the combination of actor  and birth date is too much and awkward.  By the way, there are tons of other "Sr." articles with much less basis in sources, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of those fixed, too. Dicklyon (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose proposed move, but would support Alan Hale a la Lon Chaney and Douglas Fairbanks. Or, if necessary for disambiguation, Alan Hale (actor). &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  00:46, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Forgettin Skipper, Mandruss? George Ho (talk) 01:04, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That wasn't acting; that was real! A three-hour tour... Dicklyon (talk) 01:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * @Ho: No, no more than I'm forgettin Lon Chaney Jr. and Douglas Fairbanks Jr.. We may need to say "actor" for Alan Hale to disambiguate him from other people with that name (announcer, astronomer, poltician), but that doesn't imply that he is the only actor named Alan Hale. Strictly speaking, the other actor is named Alan Hale Jr., not Alan Hale. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  01:11, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * So Alan Hale (actor)? Maybe, but it sounds like partial disambiguation.  I'm not sure what's the best thing to do here, but maybe the alternatives are worse. Dicklyon (talk) 02:34, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose - I did propose "(Sr.)" last January after I reverted Roman's moving on the title. Apparently, the nominator has issues with the title. I actually don't. WP:AT is misinterpreted. The current title is neither obscure nor made-up: look at those sources from Google Books. Also, other secondary sources use the present title to verify natural distinction. Hopefully, the title situation has not escalated yet into another Sarah Jane Brown (god, I hope not). George Ho (talk) 01:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I think the current title is the best case of action. I strongly oppose using bare "Alan Hale" for this article, as Alan Hale Jr. was pretty much never using the Jr. by the end of his career, and there is no evidence that the father is primary topic over the son. Nohomersryan (talk) 04:06, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.