Talk:Alan Pizzarelli

Which Camden?
There are some 18 Camdens in the US (and several more elsewhere) listed in WP. Could we be specific as to which Camden The Nick Virgilio Haiku Association is in? --Yumegusa (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Xanthoxyl --Yumegusa (talk) 00:23, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Third party references
According to Wikipedia guidelines Third-party sources all citations must be reliable, verifiable and third-party, whereby third-party means: A third-party source is independent and unaffiliated with the subject, thus excluding sources such as self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, and promotional materials. In accordance with these guidelines, the use of interviews with the subject such as http://www.poetrylives.com/SimplyHaiku/SHv2n6/features/Alan_Pizzarelli_Interview.html and of material from Haiku Chronicles (where the subject is "co-producer and co-host") is not permissible. To conform, I am replacing such references in the article with citation requests. Should acceptable references not be added, the unsupported assertions will be subject to deletion, in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. --Yumegusa (talk) 23:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Henderson's tutelage of Pizzarelli
An editor (Haikuwiki) has supplied the following reference in response to a citation request:

"In the early 1970s, Pizzarelli studied haiku and related forms under the tutelage of Harold G. Henderson. "

However there appears to be nothing in the url to support the assertion in question. Perusal of the actual book's index finds just one page (p69) where P and H are both mentioned. I quote:

"In 1968 Kanterman also helped Harold G. Henderson to form The Haiku Society of America in New York City. In its early years such poets as Nicholas A. Virgilio, Elizabeth Searle Lamb, L. A. Davidson, Virginia Brady Young, Alan Pizzarelli, Anita Virgil and myself shared our poems and our thoughts on haiku at the Society's monthly meetings."

Nothing here supports the assertion, so there appears to be no choice but to revert to a citation request. Haikuwiki, can you please explain what your assertion is based on? Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. If it's nothing more than the passage quoted above, then it seems clear that it should be removed. --Yumegusa (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This one's is a tough one to verify, but attending and seeing panel discussions at the Haiku North American Conferences and Haiku Society of America Meetings it is common knowledge that Anita Virgil, Bill Higginson, and Alan Pizzarelli were students and colleagues of Harold G. Henderson in the 1970's. It's just not documented very well in publications or books. But even using personal letter from Henderson Archives are still in boxes at the NY Public Library and those are not really publications < http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/spe/rbk/faids/hendersonh.pdf >, so still looking for a publication to be considered an official document for verification.   Haikuwiki (talk) 22:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you explain what you're saying about Henderson's personal letters? Can one be got (and made available) that supports your assertion? Interesting that the WP articles on Higginson and Virgilio make no mention of Henderson. Ultimately, if it's not documented it can't be used, doesn't matter if you and I know it to be true.--Yumegusa (talk) 23:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Pizzarelli's personal instruction under Henderson is well documented in the book, A Haiku Path: The Haiku Society of America 1968-1988 (Haiku Society of America, Inc. copyright 1994) which includes the June 12, 1972 workshop in which Henderson evaluates one of Pizzarelli's senryu (pg. 68). The early Haiku Society of America (HSA) meetings were "haiku workshops" with Henderson. Bear in mind, in the early 70's HSA consisted only of 15 people and only a handful of them including Pizzarelli attended these workshops with Henderson.   Its current membership is over 800. I will be updating to this citation in hopes that this will be acceptable.  The word, "tutelage" in Pizzarelli's bio, is used in the Webster's context, "3 a : instruction especially of an individual b : a guiding influence."


 * If necessary, I am also able to obtain letters from Henderson to Pizzarelli where Henderson critiques Pizzarelli's haiku/senryu.  My question for citation purposes, where would such letters be posted to be considered official documents?   Haikuwiki (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds excellent. If you could quote here the relevant passage from A Haiku Path it's likely clinched. For some reason, Google Books doesn't find p68 when searched for 'Pizzarelli': . As to the letter, post it anywhere, then let's cite it. Once you put it on the net it's published. Thanks for all your help getting this article in shape. --Yumegusa (talk) 22:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In the absence of supporting references, I'm provisionally removing the 'tutelage' statement. However, I note that this assertion (and others) appear to be lifted directly from the subject's (presumably self-penned) bio in Simply Haiku as well as his personal website. This raises concerns of both copyright and independence (and possibly wp:coi). These issues need to be addressed, and I'm removing the most glaring now. Also, can you please quote the text from Beat Scene, No 41, which you are using as evidence for the Ginsberg correspondence. --Yumegusa (talk) 12:10, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * In the absence of provision of the text requested above, I'll provisionally remove the assertion in question. --Yumegusa (talk) 19:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Removed material placed here for review...
I removed the following:

Pizzarelli is widely regarded as a pioneer of English-language senryū and a leading literary spokesman for the American haiku and senryū movement.Interview ~ Anita Virgil by Robert D. Wilson.

Could others review this and comment as well? TIA --Tom (talk) 15:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree. Citation doesn't support assertion. --Yumegusa (talk) 20:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)