Talk:Alan Rufus

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BetacommandBot 11:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Inflation
I have removed the following from the article "In 2007, it was estimated that this was equivalent to £81 billion."

As discussed at WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Kenilworth Castle there are major problems with converting historic sums to modern values, especially those over 900 years old. For instance the MeasuringWorth website only goes as far back as 1245. Nev1 (talk) 14:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The original Times article can be found here. It reports the findings of Philip Beresford and William Rubinstein in compiling The Richest of the Rich: The Wealthiest 250 People in Britain Since 1066. Nev1 (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

There's probably a spelling mistake: "The Margam Annals and a 13th-century chronicle assert he died in 1189" - perhaps it should be 1089. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.50.137.129 (talk) 17:14, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Verification...
I've gone through some of the online references, and have a bit of a concern about the text they're being used to support. I've added some inline tags, but to explain further:


 * "Geoffrey Gaimar's "L'Estoire des Engles" and Wace's Roman de Rou both assert Alan Rufus's presence as Breton commander in the battle" - I can't find this on the cited webpage. The target webpage links off to another 207 pages, and it may potentially be on one of those, but I can't be certain.
 * "A cavalry contingent hastened to Cambridgeshire "in late 1066". One account asserts that Alan had a sister Matilda who married Walter D'Aincourt, Earl of Derby, in 1065 in the Cambridgeshire town of Bourn)" - the webpage doesn't make any reference to Alan, Matilda, etc.
 * "the coat of arms of the University of Cambridge prominently incorporates a Cross Ermine, a symbol of Brittany." - the cited webpage contains a small university logo, but doesn't give any link to Brittany
 * "As constable of his new castle, Alan chose Enisant Musard (Enisandus Musardus of Pleveno)" - no mention of any castles, constables, etc., and the webpage warns that it may refer to multiple individuals rather than just one.
 * "Enisant was a tenant of Alan's at Cheveley in Cambridgeshire" - no mention of Enisant on the website that I can see
 * "Research by David Roffe indicates that the Survey was conducted in this order" - it may be elsewhere on Roffe's website, but not on the page indicated

It's worth noting that many of these links were also to primary, rather than secondary, sources: in many cases, the text of Domesday Book. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Response to Verification Issues

 * There is now a link to a downloadable scan of an English text translation of "L'Estoire des Engles"; the line numbers referring to Alan are stated.
 * Deleted reference to Matilda as a sister of Alan. Gave a link to the PASE site as direct evidence of Walter owning property in Derby in 1065. The Domesday book lists Edeva as 1066 Overlord and Alan as 1086 tenant-in-chief over Almer in Bourn and in all other places where Almer was lord.
 * Changed link from "University of Cambridge" article to "Coat of Arms of University of Cambridge" article. Separated statements about ermine, so as to avoid making a contestable interpolation.
 * Enisant Musard is a rare, perhaps unique name. In all cases, this name occurs only as a tenant of Count Alan's. Article still lacks a citation of evidence for Enisant's role as first Constable of Richmond Castle.
 * Enisant is listed in Entry 2, as is Count Alan. One must click for the second and subsequent entries to display.
 * Will see about linking to the correct paper and page where Roffe states the likely order of the Domesday Survey.

What's wrong with referencing the domesdaymap.co.uk text of the Domesday Book? Is it not authoritative enough? Zoetropo (talk) 04:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi! Thanks for checking them out.
 * It's important the citation supports the statement being made. "As constable of his new castle, Alan chose Enisant Musard", for example, doesn't seem to be supported by the website, which doesn't mention a castle or a constable that I can see (my apologies if I'm missing it!).
 * It's definitely worth looking at WP:PRIMARY. From the quality of your edits, I rather suspect you're familiar with the difference between primary/secondary/tertiary sources etc.! - and essentially the wiki relies mainly on secondary sources. The policy basically goes "a primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge... Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so."
 * What does that mean in this case? The judgement about Enisant's name (although you're absolutely right) is an interpretation of the primary sources listed on the webpage. The webpage doesn't say it is one person, and warns it may be the opposite - the interpretation is yours. It might sound a little tiresome, but you need a secondary source.
 * For the Domesday survey, it would be probably okay to say "The Domesday Book says bla-bla-bla" about village X (although a secondary source would still be better); what you can't do is interpret it into "Village X was bla-bla-bla in the late 11th century" (you're then making a judgement about the reliability of the primary source). 19:20, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Zoetropo (talk) 03:39, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I understand the point about personal interpretation (out of the blue, as it were) of primary sources, as opposed to quoting published secondary sources written by experts.
 * Examples for which secondary sources exist but I've failed to cite them include: Boston's status in 1200 as England's second port (the actual customs valuations are available) and Enisant Musard holding the Constable's fee for Richmond Castle.
 * Thanks for the advice; I'll set about adding references for the above and other statements and interpretations.

Original Research and speculation
There is no question but that this article contains original research and it is overly dependent on the published work of a single scholar. It also contained some speculative sections, including a rather far-fetched proposition that a man identified only as Alan (a not uncommon Breton name) who held land in Suffolk in Jan. 1066 could have been Alan Rufus, who later held a manor with a similar placename in Norfolk. In 1066 Alan Rufus is known to have held of Duke William in Normandy, so the likelihood that he also held a single, relatively small manor in the east of England under Edward the Confessor is quite far-fetched. While there may be a place for speculation in a Wikipedia article, such ill-founded speculation is not appropriate.DeAragon 21:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dearagon (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks for the advice: I will consider it and take it into account in a rewrite. However, the evidence that the "Alan" is Alan Rufus is rather stronger than you say. Let's consider the points one by one, with consideration of the pros and cons of the "ill-founded speculation". (1) Yes, there were several "Alan" landowners post-1066 (e.g. Alan Rufus's man "Alan of Burwell"), as well as a bunch of prominent Bretons named "Alfred" in England both before and after that date, so this has to be weighed against the hypothesis.  (2) In 1086 Alan held two properties with similar names to Wyken: [Ash]Wicken in Norfolk and Wicken in Cambridgeshire. Other similar names occur in other counties, but mostly with Breton tenants, so you are right that whatever Wyken/WikenWicken means (scholars disagree), Count Alan wasn't the only Breton with such interests.  (3) Wyken Farm is within the parish of St Edmunds, and it was at this abbey church that Abbot Baldwin buried Count Alan, at the request of his family.  (4) Richemont in Upper Normandy is a small farming and forestry district: that his great castle in the North has the same name shows that Alan Rufus was quite attached to such places.  (5) Peter of Valognes, who held Wyken Farm in 1086, was a lower-ranked associate of Alan's; Peter's East Anglian properties formed a band adjacent to Alan's. (Another landholder whose properties were so arranged was the king's sister Adelaide, whose County of Aumale contained Richemont.)  (6) As Professor Richard Sharpe of Oxford has observed, Alan was particularly closely aligned with Walter d'Aincourt, whose name appears TRE as the owner of a single property in Derby.  (7) King Edward was a first cousin of Alan's father Eudon, so it wouldn't be surprising if Alan held something in England.  (8) Why not more? English men and women had first pick, especially if the Godwin family had any say (and of course at this time they did). Though there were several Breton and Norman landholders in Edward's England, most of them were either clerics or of mixed ancestry: Ralph de Gael Senior (aka Ralph the Staller) is one example; William Malet is another.  (9) I could also adduce evidence that Alan held much less property he might have done: for example, in 1088 he led the loyalists who voluntarily returned the lands they'd seized from rebel barons.  (10) According to Open Domesday, William Malet was recorded as holding only one property TRE under his full name, but he held another five simply as "William", so a given name alone was used when it was already clear to the compilers of Domesday who a landholder was.  (11) What happened to the "Alan" who owned Wyken Farm TRE? Indeed, what happened to Ralph the Staller, William Malet, Walter d'Aincourt and the Norman clerics, after Harold ascended to the throne? They were dispossessed and expelled: a strategically wise decision on the surface, if Harold's crystal ball could not foresee whom they would then support by force of arms.  (12) Alan's choice of tenants was very pro-English compared to other magnates. Moreover, this good will was reciprocated by Harold's orphaned daughter Gunhild. This is consistent with Alan's having a prior acquaintance with the natives. Zoetropo (talk) 00:55, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, it is, to say the least, unsound practice to delete scholarly citations. Replacing specific names with vague expressions is in the same basket. Deletion of pertinent material such as the Latin epitaph is frankly uncalled for. Zoetropo (talk) 01:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)