Talk:Albania/Archive 1

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This archive page covers approximately the dates before 2007.

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Comment
Unscientific myths and fairytales. you can't be serious about this crap. Tsourkpk 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)tsourkpk

Kid, Prove me wrong! Unscientific myths??? I am talking with facts, sources, language connection and u are vandalizing, deleteing and rv everything. WHY? Are u afraid of facts?--Taulant23 16:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The old greek historians call Pelasgians barbarians. The Pelasgians appear at the front of all the historic traditions, not only in Greece and in Albania, but also in the regions from north of the Danube and the Black Sea, in Asia Minor, in Assyria and in Egypt. They represent the original type of the peoples so-called Arian, which introduced in Europe the first benefits of civilization. We find even today the traces of their ethnographic extension, as well as their industrial activity, on the three continents of the ancient world, beginning from the mountains of Norway, to the deserts of Sahara, from the sources of the rivers Araxe and Oxus to the Atlantic Ocean.

But their political history and the history of their civilization are lost in the night of time.

The few still preserved data about the Pelasgians show this great and fine people only in the last period of its history, when its political independence had been lost almost everywhere and when its name had started to disappear. And unfortunately, even these few, fragmentary data which have remained from the Pelasgians, are transmitted by those who had conquered them, destroyed and persecuted them, and later had calumniated them. Sad very sad how some Greeks can manipulate history.

Just rad Strabo in his Geography Strabonis Book 7 Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians

Who are pelasgians? Strabonis Book VII ....And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians--Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the thracians,and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei,the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes--Epeirotic tribes.

King Argo I rule; Perrhaebia's land my boundary is Northward, and Pindus' further slopes(means everything beyound that mountain=Epirus+Illyria), that watch Paeonia, and Dodona's mountain ridge. West, east, the limit of the washing seas (means West, east, the limit of the washing seas = thrakian seas(east)::adriatic sea (west) ) Restrains my rule-the interspace is mine. But this whereon we stand is Apian land....

--Another fact,name Alexander the Great.

In Greek it means shield and etc

In Albanian it means A LE SI ANDER- BORN OF A DREAM( As Olympia from North Epirus called him the son of ZEU)

--Another fact, Pyrro is not the greek genitive of Pyrrhos. You feel very desperate. You feel without hope. It's "King Pirro" in Albanian. King Pyrrhus (nominal): ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΠΥΡΡΟΣ Of King Pyrrhus (genitive): ΠΥΡΡΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ so how do you translate this ΠΥΡΡΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ

King of Pyrrhus??????--or Pyrrhus of king?????? OF KING (genitive) ---for the kingpyrrhus (remains untouched) in nominal

---Another fact,Strabon book VII

τῶν μὲν οὖν Ἠπειρωτῶν ἔθνη φησὶν εἶναι Θεόπομπος

Now as for the Epeirotes, [there are fourteen] tribes of them, according to Theopompus

τῶν-{ton}-toni(alb-gheg) tani(alb-tosk)now(eng) μὲν-{men]-me(alb)---with(eng) Ἠπειρωτῶν-{ipeiroton}tribe name ἔθνη-{ethni}--ethni(alb)ethnic group(english) φησὶν-{fisin}--fisin(alb)the tribe(english) εἶναι-{enai}---na(alb)nga(alb)-from(english) Θεόπομπος-Theopompus--person name

As you can see they are preserved in Albanian almost untouched.

Let see now ἔθνη-{ethni}--ethni(alb) It comes from the word etn(alb-gheg)___etër(alb-tosk)-Fathers(english)

Let see the singular of "etën"

AT(alb)---father(eng)vader(dutch)---pateras(new greek)--padre(it)--отец(russian)--padre(spanish)-Vater(ger)-patera(mycenian)

From the oldest(and primitive) form come the newest form. Albanian is the source.

FRAUD HISTORY, I hope in Wikipedia there are guys or girls who can find the truth and its the biggest irony that Greek nationalist are dissing Slavo-Macedonians for calling themselves Macedonians??? Glory of Greece right?

God bless all. My $ 0.2 --Taulant23 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s.Malakia ·ΚέκρωΨ· I am going to the river this weeknd so have fun ok buddie,delete everything u want, everything that is for Albania, everything that scares u...maybe even my message lol that will be so LOw

Hey Taulant, a few questions for you. Was Jesus Christ also Albanian? What about the prophet Muhammed? Confucius too maybe? Probably you'll say yes, because according to you, EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is albanian, since Albanians existed before the Earth was created. You really crack me up. No seriously, some of the stuff you come uo with is truly gard to come up with. Maybe you should write a book someday.

X person maybe Tourskop or Kekrops,u got me wrong all I am sayings is tha we share a lot in common and always there is another side of the story.Facts are facts,instead of delete the articles,PROVE ME WRONG, you Greeks can delete stuff from ALBANIA's article but wont change the facts.......--Taulant23 07:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

--Taulant23 00:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)==reverting in history section== User Taulant23 keeps reverting my edits in the history section, particularly concerning the Pelasgians and Dodona. This is outrageous, as these subjects have nothing to do with albania.

1) Dodona is a Greek sanctuary located in Greece, and therefore does not belong in this article. Its inclusion here is a brazen attempt to steal a piece of Greece's cultural heritage and implies territorial claims on Greece.  This is outrageous and it has to be removed.

2) There is currently not a single piece of evidence linking modern-day albanians to the ancient Pelasgians. The very nature of the Pelasgians is the subject of considerable debate and their identity is by no means a certainty.  While there is every reason to believe that albanians are an ancient balkan people, to claim a pelasgian-albanian link is purely speculative at this point.  Furthermore, the section on the walls of Attica have nothing to do with Albania and should be removed.  The mere mention of the above implies territorial claims on Greece and reeks of nationalist "we are the oldest people in the world" type crap.  While informed users will laugh at this, it is potentially dangerous as uninformed readers may fall for it.

3)It is certainly true that the areas comprising southern albania was inhabited by the Chaones and Molossians, which are Greek tribes.

Taulant23, if you have something to say about the above, I certainly would like to hear it. Of course, it is probably difficult for you to argue against these points, so that is probably why you keep reverting my edits and refuse to engage in a discussion. If you revert my edits one more time I will report you to the administrators for vandalism. consider yourself warned.Tsourkpk 00:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To Tsourkpk:

1) Dodona is located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea.

2) Herodotus, Hahns etc etc.The article shows the two sides of the story.Don't use it as nationalism nor am I.

The Illyrians were also Pelasgians{Pelazget in Albanian}, but in a wider sense. Moreover it is believed that of these cognate races, which are described by the ancient Greek writers as "barbarous" and "non-Hellenic," the Illyrians were the progenitors of the Ghegs, or Northern Albanians, and the Epirots the progenitors of the Tosks, or Southern Albanians. This general opinion is borne out the statement of Strabo that the Via Egnatia, which he describes as forming the boundary between the Illyrians and the Epirots, practically corresponds with the course of river Shkumbini, which now seperates the Ghegs from the Tosks. The same geographer states that Epirots were also called Pelasgians. The Pelasgian Zeus, whose memory survives even today in the appellation of God as "Zot" by the modern Albanians, was worshiped at Dodona, where the most famous oracle of ancient times was situated. According to Herodotus the neighborhood of the sanctuary was called Pelasgia.

3) Molossians, which are Greek tribes? hmmm with all respect that is not true. I don't want to go and argue for that right now.Everyone has their resources.

I would really preciate if Greeks won't delete anything in Albania article nor do I go and delete stuff in Greek articles.

p.s. consider yourself warned by Tsourkpk. Maybe you will be banned for vandalism ;).You have deleted & use vandalism in Albania article so what side are u on?--Taulant23 16:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To Taulant23:

1) Dodona is located a good 50 km from the albanian border and has nothing to do with albania.  I am glad to see you removed it from the article

2) The whole section on the Pelasgians is badly written and tries to imply that they are somehow connected to Albanians. There is simply NO reliable scientific evidence this is the case.  The evidence on the Pelasgians is very limited and we must be *very* careful about mentioning them.  Wikipedia has a separate entry for Pelasgians and there is no need to include them here.  The only reason to include them here is for nationalistic reasons.  Furthermore, the fact that some authors refer to them as "barbarians" does not necessarily imply they are non-greek.  The Pelasgians have been misused by nationalists to make territorial claims against Greece in the past so I hope you can understand why Greek people are sensitive to their mention here.     There is also no evidence to support that the Pelasgians are related to the Illyrians.  And finally, it is even doubtful that the Albanians are descended from the Illyrians, for numerous reason that are very well explained in the wikipedia article Origin of the Albanians. While Ghegs do happen to live in the area inhabited by the Illyrians, as the article points out it is likely that the Albanian language is descended from Dacian and not Illyrian. The entire article could be fine without the section on the Pelasgians. I feel their inclusion here implies that they are connected to Albanians, which is nationalist POV. And who is this linguist Hahn you mention? I haven't found any mention of him in the entire Wikipedia. Finally, even if it is true that the Pelasgians built the walls of Athens, this belongs in the article on the Pelasgians, not the article on Albania. I hope you can understand that is why I want this sentence removed.

3) The Molossians and Chaonians are Epirot tribes.  Epirots were ancient Greek people according to numerous sources Apollodorus, Strabo , Dionysius of Halicarnassus ,    Frontinus , Pausanias , Ptolemy , Cassius Dio and Eutropius .  The Chaonians were the northernmost Epirot tribes and their territory stretched as far north as the bay of Vlore.  Since that is in Albania, I think it is worth mentioning here.  I can't understand why you keep removing that sentence.  We are talking about ancient people here, not modern people such as the Tosks, so this does not imply territorial claims on Albania.  And while it is true that Tosks live in the areas occupied by the Chaonians, this does not mean that Tosks are descended from Epirots, although there has been a lot of intermarriage between Tosks and Eprirot Greeks over the centuries. Since my sentence on the Chaonians contains sourced material, I ask that you not remove it.

Lastly, it is not my intention to become involved in edit wars and much less to vandalize the Albania page. I want our peoples to be friends, and I hope Albania can join the EU someday. However, I am very protective of Greece's ancient heritage and i am very sensitive to seeing it appropriated by Albanian and Slav nationalists, which has regrettably occured in the past. No hard feelings :)

I admire your answer, finally a REAL Greek to talk too. I don't know who you are, but I thank you for your approach for this issue.

Dodona is located 5 miles from the Albanian border, there are ruins of Dodona in Albania. I am not claiming anything but I have seen is that Greeks wore very sensitive about it and I am sad why something that has to do with Epirotes, or Greeks or Pelasgians need to be interpreted as a claim of nationalist ideas.As Taulant, I think we share a lot in common, I have no problem with Greece. There are many sources in our history,in which we can educate, share and why not correct each other.

Ok this discussion board has the look of a crap hole to be blunt. So I'll make it simple. The vast majority or archaeologists with a background in Illyrians, believe Albanians are their closest descendents. To suggest anything otherwise because it wounds you greek pride, is ridiculous and disingenuous.

Walls of Athens? wtf?
What do the Pelasgians and the walls of Athens have ANYTHING to do with albania? Why is this mentioned in the article? Overall this is a very badly written article filled with nationalist POV crap. As there is absolutely not a shred of evidence linking the Pelasgians (and the Illyrians for that matter) to modern-day Albania, I propose removing the sentence on the walls of Athens from this article.

Dodona
Why is the sanctuary of Dodona mentioned in this article? This is one of of the oldest and most significant ancient Greek sanctuaries and is located in Greece, not Albania. It has no place in this article and I have therefore removed the sentence. ^^^^tsourkpk

Vandalism in History section
1st 2 paragraphs in history section are largely about oral sex as of 2007-04-20. I'm thinking this is incorrect. Or at least is incorrectly restricted to Albania. I'd remove the content myself, but it seems as if content had been overwritten with this content... is it possible to revert to previous content if so?

In the section discuss the Roman and Byzantine Era - there is a mention of Philip and Alexander the Great of Macedon. This is during the Hellenistic Era and not the Roman or Byzantine Era. I tried correcting this, but someone removed it. I correct it again. by ApplesnPeaches

Demographics
''Many ethnic Albanians also live in the bordering countries of Serbia and Montenegro (around 1,850,000; of that, around 1,800,000 in Serbia, around 1,700,000 in its province called Kosovo and around 50,000 in Montenegro) and the Republic of Macedonia (around 500,000) although a lot of Albanians believe that the number might be higher. Also a small number of ethnic Albanians live in Greece which are called Çam or Cham. Claims over Çam numbers have ranged from 20,000 to over 200,000 but are believed to be understated because Athens has not considered the local Albanians to be a separate ethnic group.''

Without prejudice to the validity of the information above, it seems to be irrelevant, because the article is about Albania (the country) rather than the Albanian people in general. I therefore propose moving the extract to some more appropriate entry. Doing so would produce a more focussed text, similar to the ones about the demographics of the United Kingdom, Germany or Russia. Conversely, if the information remains as is, it might be argued that the article promotes irredentist ideology by blurring the distinction between country and nation. For all the reasons above I plan to remove those sentences on May 21st, unless there are any convincing counter-arguments. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where this information might be more usefully presented. TheArchon 11:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So what ever happened to that? The article on Albanians seems like a well-developed article, and a good place for the information you think should be deleted/moved (if it's not already there). I was only going to make a note on this talk page about the Çam, since a people who used to live in Greece would seem to have nothing to do with the current demographics of Albania, but you rightly point out that neither does anyone else not living in Albania.--Rschmertz 06:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I would go along with that- this section belongs elsewhere as it's not strictly about the people within Albania. I think this is covered already in the Albanians article. Has anybody got a good argument for retaining it, or is there anywhere else it might better fit? Otherwise I agree with the previous two users that this should be removed.Zagubov 10:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I got rid of the Çam bit. I didn't get rid of the Serbia/Greece/etc. part (not bold enough?) but it's not too long to be distracting.  I think the part I left in about where Albanians are currently emigrating to is somehow relevant, however. --Rschmertz 06:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Section length and contents
I am curious to read from what sources the history part is written.Especially the one stating that the Albanian fascists helped the Italians against the Greek and after helped the Germans (against who?) and no mention of the Albanians having faught against the Turks for the independence of Greece or for liberating Yugoslavia. I hided a part of it but it is still there. Nervi modest 19:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the history section in this article should be a bit longer to get the information a bit more specific and accurate. For instance, as to the World War II, Italian occupation is mentioned but the German occupation isn't, and this tends to imply that there was no other occupation. Or from the first paragraph you get the impression that there never was any Albanian rule betweem Ancient times and 1912, but what about Scanderbeg?.


 * Go for it if you want. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I'll Make a try. Though I don't feel myself competent enough even after reading the history articles about Albania Wikipedia currently contains. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am just wondering whether this would make the article too long. But them maybe the list of districts and the list of holidays could be moved to another place.

And I also think that the most important (or all) cities should be mentioned right in the article because they are of primary interest, not the districts. Andres 19:24, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I put the holiday table in there because it seemed to be part of a template (lots of countries have it), so I would let that stay on the main page. I have also seen Districts/Counties/Whatever on the front page. There is a link to the cities so I don't think that is much of an issue. I just want it to be consistent with the other country pages. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I see your point. I checked some other country articles. Many of them contain the holidays section, some don't. The article about the United States has it in the article Culture of the United States. It is certainly useful but it need not be in the main article. Anyway, this is not that important, and the template is not that uniform. Besides, the article about United Kingdom does not list the administrative divisions lower than countries and has instead separate articles for the lists. So there are options here too. (In the case of the United States the list of States is natural. But this does not mean that an equivalent of it is as natural for every other country.    My point is only that if we find it better, we can modify the "template".


 * It's true that we cannot deviate much from the overall conventions of country articles but we can question the conventions and suggest changes. There are things that strike me as really strange. The amount of information about history and geography is reduced to nearly nil, and long detailed tables are longer than those fundamental topics. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Go for it if you want as I say. I just would like the holidays in the main article. The US has a few more holidays so that's maybe why they put it there. Dori 20:36, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I am not going to touch the tables, just extending the History and Geography sections. Andres 05:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I just noticed that there are some cities mentioned in the Geography section, you might add there any other cities you think should be mentioned. Dori


 * OK, I''ll have a look.

Dori, Andres, you might want to take a look at WikiProject Countries. The template, which we try to apply to all countries is specified there. The length of the individual sections is not exactly determined, but it shouldn't be more than, say, two or three paragraphs. Looking at the Albania article, especially politics and geography could use some more information. If there are inaccuracies in the other texts: go ahead and edit them of course. But when you have to go into too much detail, just edit the subarticles.

All that is just for your consideration of course, you can just "be bold". Jeronimo 06:51, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is wrong!
In the Ottoman Rule part it says that Albanians managed to keep their culture and religion. Actually the Ottoman Empire never forced anybody to become a Muslim. The government policy was this. Mehmet II gave an order which would let all minorities to live according to their beliefs. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Response to the above comment. Hmm, let me think. So the Albanians fought tooth and nail    against the Ottoman Turks in the middle ages only to "peacefully" convert later into the muslim faith??? Actually Albanians converted gradually, and every conversion was forced either physically or economically. It always happened after a war. After Skanderbeg died, after the Turkish-Russo war, etc. JohnStovec--Johnstovec 00:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Albanians were forced to become muslims by turks. Stop with this muslim propaganda!

Etymology of the name
The word Albania in albanian "Shqiperia" means the land of the eagle which is also realated to the flag which is a two headed eagle.
 * It could be I suppose. I guess it's an eagle or the egg problem :) Did the word shqipe first signify the language or the bird? The most used version is the one about the eagle (as enhanced by the flag), so that is what I used. Also, before being called Shqipëria, Albania was called Arbëria (tosk) or Arbënia (gheg) and Albanians were called Arbër (note the Albanians that migrated to southern Italy call themselved Arbëresh). I would guess the word for the eagle existed before the name change, which is why the first explanation is more likely in my opinion. --Dori 14:59, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Scientific etymologies, as a rule, are hypotheses, though of different degrees of probability. And as to the folk etymologies, there is no question of truth. It's a fact that for modern Albanians, Shqipëria means 'The Land of Eagles'. But that does not mean that the word sghiptar (which I think is older than the name of the land) is etymologically related to the name of the bird. I think that probably both originally existed apart, and then became to be associated.


 * Now, the problem is that when we say what Shqipëria means then this is ambiguous between the etymological meaning and the cultural meaning for modern Albanians. For instance, I would take it for the etymological meaning if I were ignorant of the problem.


 * I think there should be an article apart about the names of Albania or even for each name apart. Andres 16:56, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the name of the bird and the name of the language just happened to be the same and they were not derived from the same word? I would think that the most likely answer is that the name for the bird came from some language (Albanian or otherwise), Albanians came to be associated with the bird (maybe the name of some tribe), and then the language was subsequently associated with the bird. I don't know the technical words as this no where near my field of expertise, but logically it makes sense to me. --Dori 17:23, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, I mean that originally the words shqiptar and others just happened to have the same sound as the word for the eagle, and later on Albanians "found a hidden meaning" in this similarity. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Everything is possible, it just seems unlikely to me that the two are not originally related. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * The authors of the Albanian history volume that I have seem to believe that the name probably derived from the adverb shqip which means to speak clearly, openly, bluntly and predating all other forms, and that the change in the name happened around the end of the 18th century. No mention is made of the word for eagle. --Dori 18:37, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * What change happened in the 18th century?


 * Arbëria/Arbër started dropping from usage and being replaced with Shqipëria/Shqipëtar. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * It is really surprising that the change occurred that late. Are there any further details? I suppose that in oral use it could be much earlier. Andres 05:53, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * This etymology (that is, whence the name comes) is plausible also this is typical way how ethnonyms (names of peoples) arise. The ethnos or nation is described as people who speak clearly, that is in the language we can ubderstand. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think a small section on the different names would be worthwhile, in particular to explain the difference between the "national" and "international" names. There's some info on Albania on Illyria, but I'm unsure how to incorporate this here.

I always assumed the name evolved from Epirus. Shqiperus>>Epirus ..sp and ep are synomous in many languanges. --Ciriii 22:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Coat of arms
Has the coat of arms of Albania been changed? Andres 05:35, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think it has. The state emblem I believe is a bit similar, but I have not seen the image posted anywhere. I made the coat of arms, and I am not an artist so it is a bit stretched, but I think it is more accurate. I could be wrong though. Dori | Talk 06:22, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * The Skanderbeg helmet has been on the emblem earlier. See . I have no confirmation either for a new emblem, but it is still possible it has been changed recently. Andres 07:10, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I got the image from the Albanian Ministry of Information (http://mininf.gov.al/). Also, this is the coat of arms mentioned in the Constitution of Albania.  Also, nation's flags and coat of arms aren't copyrighted they are public domain.  I did put the link on the image and where it came from.  Scythian99


 * The site is not coming up for me right now, but I know that it is the ministry of information. Does it specifically say that it is the coat of arms and not some other emblem? The reason I asked for the site and copyright is that the Albanian law is even more strict than the American or European ones (that's the impression I have gotten). Also, most gov't sites of Albania reserve all the rights to all their material (using I see that it says "Copyright (c) 2002 - Keshilli i Ministrave i Republikes se Shqiperise - Departamenti i Informacionit"). I think if the material is used in a court case or something similar it becomes public domain, but I am not sure. Do you know for sure that they are in public domain? thanks, Dori | Talk 21:33, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * The state emblem is a bit similar if you look here:, but I don't know if that's the same as the coat of arms of a country. Dori | Talk 21:35, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks to bunnerabb, we have this, but I have not found an official government source yet. Dori | Talk 21:47, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * That is interesting how the skanderbeg crown is in the shield and not on top of it from the other government site. It seems we have a mystery on our hands!  I do know that I have seen some variation on the theme.  I thought I read somewhere on wikipedia that government emblems were public domain, as with the information for countries from that CIA online source. Also, I have seen the crowned shield on recent Albanian paper money, 1,000 Leke from about 10 years ago, with swords too. Scythian99


 * Since you are not sure, I think I will revert. The earlier version is more likely to be the coat of arms, and it is GFDL'ed (since it's based on the CIA public domain image). Dori | Talk 04:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Here is what the Albanian constitution constitution says about the coat of arms: "The seal of the Republic of Albania presents a red shield with a black, two-headed eagle in the center. At the top of the shield, in gold color, is the helmet of Skanderbeg (1)." So maybe the Skanderbeg crown is on the arms and not on top?  I will try to draw a new one, maybe you should try?  :) Scythian99 | Talk


 * Is the state emblem the same thing as the coat of arms? Dori | Talk 17:13, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Coat of arms is taken from heraldry since it started as individuals or families having coat of arms. Many state emblems have their roots in heraldry and use the rules of heraldry in their creation.  Coat of arms and state emblem are often used interchangeably although some country's coats of arms aren't really coat of arms.  What do you think of my addition of the crown on your shield.  Maybe you can do a better job?  :)  Scythian99 | Talk


 * I made a different one. I think it looks better. Dori | Talk 21:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * Urra! Urra! Great job Dori! You have many talents!  It looks great. Scythian99 | Talk

Counties
The reversion of my listing of Counties is inconsistent.

The list of 36 Districts is presented on the Albania page within the Districts section as well as being under a prominent link Main article: Districts of Albania

The list of Counties however is merely referred to in the body of the text as counties

Yet when I attempt to address the inconsistency by adding the 12 Counties which are not listed I am swiftly reverted because the list already exists under the counties link.

For Consistency, either an additional section should be added to the Albania page entitled 'Counties' with a listing of the counties, or the list of Districts under the Districts section should be removed and the following links be shown:-

Main article:
 * Districts of Albania
 * Counties of Albania

--JohnArmagh 19:58, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * The districts are somewhat more important than the counties, which is why I have left them there, but I will try to emphasize the counties a bit more. Dori | Talk 02:15, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

-- I think therefore that we have arrived at a reasonable and suitable compromise on the issue.

regards --JohnArmagh 06:01, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know what happened since you all were editing this page about two years ago, but before i edited this section today, it only had one sentence about prefectures. Slightly odd, in my opinion since all the other articles are labeled as counties. I added an image to help with clarity but that will only do so much. this is definitely a section needing revamped. b_cubed 16:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

anonymous modification

 * Albania lays in what in ancient times was called Illyricum. Albanians are the oldest people in Europe. Considered a mistery by many westeners Albania is a historian's dream.

Albanians are the oldest people in Balkans. Albanians are descent to Illyrians theirfore to the Pellasgians. Illyrian tribes are mentioned in Homeros poems. Many scholars have agreed with this, such scholars are Edwin E. Jacques and Konstantin Kristoforidhi, to name a few. --Albanau 17:35, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence to link modern albanians to the ancient illyrians. Nationalist nonsense of the type "we are the oldest race on earth bla bla bla". we've heard it all before. get some evidence before you say things like that (might be a little difficult, considering it DOESN'T EXIST). 64.121.193.126 09:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)ptsourkas

What about the Cretans (Minoans) about 2000-3000 b.C.?

what about them? are they "albanian" as well? LOL

bla bla bla you know nothing about the history, there are many evidences about pelasgic origine of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin, if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in  Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars  explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other Europian Languages English included, and this my friend it is not nationalism but the truth which of course doesn't suite to some like you. Dodona

your knowledge of history is as bad as your english. The "scholars" you name are nationalistic hacks and their theories consist pseudo-science. 24.23.131.247 01:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggest 12 possible wiki links for Albania.
An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Albania article:

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right. Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to &mdash; LinkBot 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Can link national flag: ...as Land of the Eagles, hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem. The derivation of the name Albania is of... (link to section)
 * Can link Indo-European language: ...of Albania]]'' Illyrians arise as a people speaking an Indo-European language around 1000 BC. The Illyrian culture was influenced by ... (link to section)
 * Can link Greek culture: ...und 1000 BC. The Illyrian culture was influenced by the Greek culture (mainly the south Illyrian tribes). Albania being also the ... (link to section)
 * Can link Byzantine Empire: ...es. After being conquered by a number of nations mainly the Byzantine Empire, it became a part of the Ottoman Empire in 1478 aft... (link to section)
 * Can link Gjergj Kastrioti: ... 1478 after years of resistance under the leadership of Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, the Albanian National Hero.... (link to section)
 * Can link World War II: ...t was occupied by Italy. The communists took over after World War II, in November 1944, under the leader of the resistence, link to section)
 * Can link communist state: ...r the death of Hoxha, Albania was an extremely isolationist communist state, with little contact even with the other communist states. ... (link to section)
 * Can link organized crime: ...despread corruption, a dilapidated infrastructure, powerful organized crime networks with links to high government officials, and disru... (link to section)
 * Can link council of ministers: ...n using proportional system. The president is assisted by a council of ministers, which is appointed by the president.... (link to section)
 * Can link unemployment rate: ...d to be working abroad. The country has to deal with a high unemployment rate, corruption up to high government levels and organised crim... (link to section)
 * Can link financial aid: ...from Greece and Italy. The money for imports comes from the financial aid and from the money that refugees working abroad bring t... (link to section)
 * Can link fanaticism: ...ther main religions in Albania, though in Albania religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem with people from different... (link to section)

Origin of the name
"The name of Albania prior to the Turkish invasion was "Arbëria," the Albanian dialect Gheg became involved and later became Arbania, for example the Tosk word for voice is Zëri and the Gheg word for voice is Zani, anyway it became later changed to Albania. The Arbëresh community who live in Italy still speak the old style of Albanian and still call their homeland Arbëria."

I think this part of the section on the 'Origin and history of the name' Albania needs to be deleted or at least revised, because there's no historical evidence that coroborates this theory, at least not in the 'External Links' section of the article.

Also, if Arbëria really was the name of Albania before the Turkish invasion, then why did it change to Shqiperia? And what were they called before being called Shqiptar? I think these are important questions that need to be addressed by this article.

Well, I can answer to all of your question but have become bored after discussing this with many. If you know swedish or know someone who knows swedish, let them translate this for you Origin and history of the name Albania (Articel at Swe Wiki) their I give information based on facts and what Arb/Alb realy means and when it became used among albanians and if Illyria still was used among some klans, and also when they start to use the word Shkipënia/Shqiperia. The articel answer to all this questions. User:Albanau

It's nice of you to have given information is swedish, how about in english so the english speaking people can understand.

Anti-Hoxha Propaganda
I know Enver Hoxha had many alleged problems with Human Rights, but I might also note that the economy of Albania was socialist. Unemployment, poverty, and starvation were illiminated. Hoxha didn't severe relations with the USSR for "his own interest", he did because the USSR went back to capitalism in his opinioin. It seems some of this is just stating what has been said about Hoxha, but a lot of it seems to be corporate/capitalist propaganda. I offically dispute the nuetrality of this article....

This in not propaganda. Hoxha tried to assert maximum control over its citizens by having them on a short leash. If thousands of unjustifiably dead are not human rights violations, I don't know what is.

Motto
What does the motto mean? We need to provide an English translation. – Kaihsu 14:23, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)

Spam removal
Sorry, I flubbed the edit summary. Please see User talk:66.66.69.79 for the history behind this particular bit of spam and my removal of it. &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 19:07, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Albanians - Hellenes and autohthony.

 * No need to mention this. The very fact that he does not seem to have a signature or an account tells millions Tpilkati 06:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

2:Also, this whole conversation is void, since there is no scientifically viable way to prove autochtony, or any value in proving it (except nationalist bragging rights)--Jsone 4 July 2005 14:59 (UTC)

Dear Jsone,

U wrote: "Well genetic research shows common blood within Greeks and Albanians." Did u notice that the populations of the samples where too small? What if the most of the "Albanian sample" was from southern Albania (our northern Epirus)?


 * The sample comes from Albanians, whether from southern or northern Albania. And most likely the samples were taken from the state capitol, Tirana. Where there is the heaviest concentration of Albs. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

-There is the big Greek minority of Albania!- Moreover there are olso Greek Orthodox Albs so mixed with Greeks that u cant say if they are Albs or not! Like Gegides.Albs live there about 9 centuries, we have come together anyway.


 * There it stated Albanians, not Greeks. If the people were Greeks, then they would not be tested.

Your second statement is a wrongful assumption, the "inter-mixing" process has not occured until some small times during communism, which failed. And Northern Epirus is only a small part of Albania on top of that it is not too concentrated and difficult to access. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

For excample for Albanians where only 51 people and for the Hellenes only 76!! I believe that the numbers are not big enought to proove any serius theory..

Anyone can choose up to 1,000 people from Greece or Albania and proove anything!


 * To do 1000 DNA tests takes time and money...

If u are staying in Greece u would know what i mean.If not,(a) read history,(b) then count how many invadors came over Greece and finally (c) see their chromosoms on our blood! :)


 * Im surprised at this, lol. Anyway, generally, it is agreed that Greeks of today seem to match largely with the look of ancient Greeks. Much more of this can be followed http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/ here].

I am patriot, not a nationalist as u said. I am happy that the survey u link, shows that the Greeks have almost all the kinds of polymorfismos in a prety good percent each every one of them!


 * The polymorphisms are not new. These are from the Neolithic age. Long before Greek identity or Hellenism was even coming together. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

That means that we have come together with many other nations.Notice that after the mixing, the new generation takes (most of the times) the very good characteristics of both sides. Be happy because we are blessed!


 * Read the above.

Agaphte,Iasona den eimai anonymos onomazomai Yorgios Mantikos kai mhn provaineis se potapous xaraktirismous, ean kai efoson mporeis na syzhtas, tote kanto. Eycharisto. Yorgos Mantikos

"Disambiguation notice"
Why is there a paragraph-long disambiguation notice for this article? Everything beyond "Albania was also the name of an ancient country in the Eastern Caucasus, now mostly covered by Azerbaijan. – see Caucasian Albania" seems unnecessary. Evil Monkey∴Hello July 5, 2005 08:07 (UTC)

odd revert
If User:Getoar really thinks it necessary to revert to a three-week-old version of the article, without an edit summary, some explanation here is necessary. It would also be polite to replace the minor and entirely uncontroversial changes (for example the interwiki links and the &#123;{Albania}} template). In the meantime I have rolled back the edit. &mdash;Charles P. (Mirv) 05:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania
"Albania was also the name of an unrelated ancient state in the Caucasus – see Caucasian Albania"- This sentance has no relevance to this article and i removed. It is a Serbian propaganda intended to make readers believe that somohow Albanians are related to Caucasian Albania. I suggest that no one reverts this without an explantions.--Ferick 06:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've reverted it, and the explanation is that it's a disambiguation between two similar terms - a standard procedure on Wikipedia. It certainly isn't Serbian propaganda. -- ChrisO 08:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed a Serbian propaganda. The first thing you see when you open Albania’s page is that phrase, and then latter on there is talk about how some historians believe that Albanians came from that region. What impression do you think this will have on someone who doesn't know anything about Albania? I don't want to revert it back, but you will have to decide whether you want to remove the reference in the body or this sentence. If you just want to remove the reference in the body, I will accept the sentence remaining where it is now. --Ferick 03:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed etymology and copy-vio for now
See Origin and history of the name Albania. What to do in this Albania article will be figured out, but that mass of text had to go as it was. Alexander 007 15:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone deletesd the Gorani from the article. Return them, please. HolyRomanEmperor 19:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Demographics/"optimal solution"
From the article, "Religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem, with people from different religions living in peace and even getting married although this was not considered to be an optimal solution." Who considered it to not to be an optimal solution? 04:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jews
How many Jews are living in Albania?

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article
Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Eskimos
How many Eskimos are living in Albania?


 * I guess it is a new way of propaganda. Little one-sided datas were put into the different parts of the article. It is a part of the game of politics. On the other hand, with such a powerless economy and an average HDI, Albania will enter to the EU. Politics is very important my friend... With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Clans among the Tosks
I've been reading Noel Malcolm's book Kosovo: A Short History, and he talks at length about the Geg highland clans of the north, but never says anything about any clans among the Tosks. Now that itself is fairly understandable, but I've never heard of any clan system amongst the Tosks, period. Are there any clans left, or were they swept aside by the Ottoman feudal system that was implemented in the more accessible areas of the south? If there are any, do they follow the Canon of Lek?(SomeAlbanianDude)

Many incorrect historical data, I explain tomorow...

I really don't care about the suppossed inaccuracy about Noel Malcolm's book right now. I just wanna know whether Tosks have a clan structure similar to the Gegs or not. (SomeAlbanianDude)

Religion
From Wiki "Islam is a monotheistic religion based upon the Qur'an, which adherents believe was sent by God through Muhammad." No 70% of Albanians belive this. Is it possible that no percentage of Albanians is atheist, at a time when almost two generations were raised without religion ? Same would be probably true for other religions. If you see France, a poll it's included, where if I remember correct 60% or more did not even belive in a God? Can someone convincibly express this? --69.119.50.159 18:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)LIO
 * I would also add that the percentages were wrong for the major religious groups. I checked BBC World Profiles and the CIA Worldfactbook.  Both had Islam as the majority, CIA was "70%".  I don't know where someone got 5% were Muslims?  I changed it. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/al.html#People
 * MPA 9/26/06
 * Yes, your figures are in accordance with the CIA factbook, and presumably also with the BBC source, but these numbers are in stark contrast to the leading statement in the paragraph that most Albanians are non-religious, and your response seems like you didn't even really read what you were responding to. I would indeed like to know where the 5% number came from -- seems like a lowball for a country I was always taught was predominantly Muslim -- but I don't put a lot of faith in the CIA numbers which imply that absolutely everybody has a religion. --Rschmertz 20:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Before you put so much stock in the CIA, I suggest that you recall that these are the same people who needed 6 days to varify N. Korean missle test (when they buy state of the art equipement so they should need more than 24 hrs.). Point is this - I suggest you go Albania and see how many of them live according to the Quran, Bible, or Torah.  Then come back.  Until try not to place so much stock in research that argues Albania was muslim for the past 50 years, because it under communist rule and religion was banned so how could have religious people then at the time, yet the CIA factbook still argued the point, Rschmertz. Period. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * I've added emphasis to my previous post, apparently needed. Thanks for responding.  We would love new, objective and accurate data for the religions of Albania, but we can't accept numbers based on someone going to the country and "seeing how many of them live according to the Quran, Bible, or Torah."  If the numbers are your personal estimates, we simply can't accept them.  If they are from a reputable source, then we will welcome them, but we need a citation for the source.  Meanwhile, if the CIA numbers are all we have, then we (meaning probably I) will have to edit the section to make it clear that these are old estimates and that current, reliable data is not available. --Rschmertz 00:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * One credible book is Albanian Identities: Myth and History by Peter Siani-Davies (editor)(2002). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * Do you have a copy of this book? Can you post a relevant quote here that we can take a look at, that cites the breakdown by religion and, ideally, how he came up with these numbers?  This is the difficulty with using books as a source: you sort of have to trust what someone else says is in the book, unless you want to go to the library yourself and see if they have the book so you can verify that that's what the book says (and that the book seems credible).  --Rschmertz 05:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A little time would be nice. thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Motto
The motto currently listed is "Albanians place their faith in Albania". It used to read "Free and strong". Which one is correct? The current listing was added six weeks ago be anonymous user. I know nothing on the subject, but it seemed dubious. PruneauT 23:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a Hoxha quote: "The religion of Albania is Albanianism," or something like that - not something a democratic government would want around, even if it ever was the national motto. "Free and strong" is more likely to be the right one. Alr 04:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The world Albania does not actually mean Land of the Eagles, even though it is popular to think so. It actually means "land of clear speech"


 * that is not true. Th word Albanian means "Land of the Eagles". learn little Albanain first and than come back and discuss with us.

Yeah what is this person saying? "Shqiperija" comes from "shqiponje" (eagle).UberCryxic 19:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To come back to the motto: is Free and strong even correct? I could find no reference apart from wikipedia and mirror sites. I don't speak a word of Albanian, but my guess is that the Albanian Wikipedia says that it doesn't have a motto ("Moto Kombëtare: s´ka"). It seems that it was added by a vandal and that only half the edit got reverted. Does anyone know more about this? Pruneautalk 09:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking at the Albanian WP, I have to agree. I made sure I checked the Albanian article on Romania (which definately doesn't have a motto) to make sure. Must have been one sneaky vandal...Alr 16:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Albanian municipalities/prefectures
Could somebody with good knowledge of the Albanian administrative subdivisions please verify the content of the following articles: Counties of Albania and List of municipalities of Albania? Are municipalities the same as counties/prefectures? Is there any redundancy of information between the two articles? I need to know which one is adequate to be placed in Lists of municipalities. Thank you.--Húsönd 15:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Other languages
Current note on language under "Demographics" reads something like "many Albanians are also fluent in English, Greek, Italian". Was changed to "many also speak Italian" which raised the question in my mind: How many Albanians are there who speak a mother language other than Albanian? Surely this is more relevant to Demographics than how many people have studied English in university. Is there a Greek community in Albania, for example? Shouldn't we at a minimum note that some of these languages (certainly English) are second languages learned at school? --Rschmertz 22:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no statistics, but I grew up in Albania and my personal impression is that more people speak Italian as a second language than anything else, certainly far more than both English and Greek combined. Even I could understand Italian-language television because my family watched it so much. There is some Greek influence in the south of the country, but I'm not sure to what extent the Greek language is spoken there. As for what's learned at school, I would suppose English would be the most popular, but Turkish is up there as well.UberCryxic 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The Greek speaking population currently living in Albania is under dispute by both Greeks and Albanians. If such figures are to be added to this article I would suggest that citations from both sides of the argument are included. --Toni78 05:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Aboriginal Discoveries, Pelgasians, and unitedalbanian.com
I've always felt there was something amiss with the sections covering the earlier parts of "Albanian" history. And after seeing the repeated creation of links by various IP addresses to http://unitedalbanian.com/, and visiting said website, and noticing identical text, I started to dig into when all that text got added. Well, I found where it got added -- everything covering "Albanian" history prior to Roman rule: here. You might take a look at the other contributions of this IP address user; rather a mixed bag with regard to usefulness, but obviously strongly nationalistic.

Anyway, the identical text presents a problem. I don't know which way the copying went, but given the fact that it was all added to WP in one chunk, and that unitedalbanian.com has texts on other periods and subjects that do not seem to appear in Wikipedia, I think the copying probably went from UA.com to WP, in which case it could be a copyright violation. (If the copying went from WP to UA, then there should be no links to the UA site in this article, of course). Add to that the question of whether it's really appropriate to talk about Stone Age and Bronze Age man in an article about a modern-day country, and... we have a lot to think about, I guess :-) Any thoughts on these sections? --Rschmertz 06:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Right now they are a big problem because they are too generic. They belong in a human history article, not an Albanian history article. If they can somehow be more closely tied to Albania or surrounding regions, then they can stay. Otherwise they either need to be deleted or need heavy modification.UberCryxic 06:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello, I am the webmaster of UnitedAlbanian.com. The text you speak of (Aboriginals to Middle Ages) is original and copyrighted by UnitedAlbanian.com. I do not know who copied such information from my site to Wikipedia. I have also not been asked for premission. What troubled me more was that there were no reference links to my site, even though the content was copied word for word. I had to add reference links myself. Even though I do not condone such actions without an author's premission, I don't mind it if such content remains on Wikipedia. In the future, contact the website if you want to borrow content, and please reference! If you want to validate this post, contact me through the website. Thanks. --68.236.27.153 22:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for contacting the Talk page. We serious Wikipedians don't condone this sort of copying from other pages either, but as editing is open to anybody, this sort of thing may be done by novices who disregard copyright or who don't understand their laws or Wikipedia policy.  Thank you for your (after-the-fact!) permission for the material to remain.  If we keep it, we will[1] ensure that unitedalbanian.com is referenced for those sections.  We prefer not to have copy-and-pasted materials, though, so we may end up deleting it and using UA as a general source.
 * [1] It's hard to promise anything like this, though, as who knows if I'll still be doing this six months from now :-/ --Rschmertz 22:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is nothing damaging really as I too support the free flow of information; I only was a little surprised :). Thanks for acknowledging on this talk page the unreferenced additions in the first place though! I appreciate it.--68.236.27.153 23:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Albania borders: Serbia? Kosovo?
There is a question of how/whether we should describe the fact that Albania borders Kosovo, and thus Serbia. The three possibilities I'm aware of are: it borders Serbia; it borders Kosovo; and it borders the Serbian province of Kosovo.

Some use the argument that, since we simply say that the U.S. borders Canada, rather than enumerating the provinces it borders (true enough, in a comparable context), that we should do the same with Serbia. However, the reason we don't get so specific/detailed in cases such as the U.S. and Canada or most others is because it is simply not interesting or particularly significant. However, the bordering with Kosovo is very interesting for several reasons. For starters, it is the only province of Serbia that borders Albania. As Kosovo has become very well-known on the world stage, it is very useful to know that this Albanian-majority region is contiguous with Albania. Finally, Serbia at this time does not have administrative control over Kosovo, so effectively there is no contiguity with the geographical region controlled by Belgrade.

To simply say that Albania borders Serbia, then, is to effectively sweep some very encyclopedically important information under the rug, ostensibly in the name of consistency. Consistency does not trump informativeness and usefulness, and neither, I hope, does political sensitivity. --Rschmertz 07:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It borders the Serbian province of Kosovo <-- the information is presented in an unbiased and factual manner.--estavisti 01:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is eliminating Serbia's significance here. Kosovo is still a Serbian province. That's why we're not saying, "bordered by Kosovo to the northeast," but by "Serbian province..."UberCryxic 21:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)