Talk:Albanian Regiment (France)

Constructive work needed
The present version of the article says that the "Alb. Reg." was manned by muslim Albanians. However, many sources (including Minot) make clear that the conscripts were certainly christians and at least part of them were Greeks. The present references of the article are at least hopeless.

Also it doesn't fit with the ref. in Souliotes that the latter served in the "Albanian R.".

I invite serious WPists to forget nationalistic propaganda and contribute to a version that makes sense. --Euzen (talk) 10:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What the sources say is that the early Russian unit was manned by Muslim Albanians, that later became the backbone of the new unit. Of course until it became the formation it was in 1809, the composition changed over time.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:54, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Not "sources" but "a source" which can be added as "according to". Unfortunatelly for this source, it will be proved wrong by other undisputable sources and archival material.

Obviously you are working scenarios to avoid the fact that "Albanian" meaned "mercenary from the Levant".

And guess what: Some of those "Albanians" were Serbs, decorated during the wars in Italy in 1798. Names of decorated "Macedoni" (from Italian source) who later became "Albanesi": Giorgio Lalic, Demetrio Lecca, Marino Consolic, Antonio Viscovic, Angelo Robusco, Giovan Abramovic etc.--176.58.186.206 (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC) (The above was posted by me, user "Euzen"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.58.186.206 (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Euzen, source deletion and misrepresentation as an IP isn't prudent especially when you've been blocked twice regarding it and have been warned about logging out and then editing as an IP. This article isn't about units in Italy, but even so I wouldn't throw around names of people I know nothing about. I've added every possible ethnicity that was enrolled in the regiment. The only mention that I can remove is the religious classification as of the sources only one mentions that difference. Btw did you read Boppe's work? Except for religious part, which he doesn't mention, there's nothing exceptional to justify your BLP comment.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

But can we correct or alter the original reference?

Obviously Col. Elting (not a historian) is mistaken talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians". No other source supports this and he doesn't document it with a footnote. Ommitting the word "muslem" equals to interpretation and correction of the source which we cannot do, I suppose, because it leaves the door open to an interpretation as "muslems and christians" or "christians" which makes a big diference. Unless we find another source talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians" I propose we leave aside this source altogether. Alternatively, we can add Elting as a marginal source ("according to..."). Here is another source, based on Pappas etc, not aggreeing at all with Elting:.
 * It doesn't mention anything that could be used in this article.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

1) It does. Pp 50, 51 (referring to the Russian rule, soon after 1800): "the Septinsular army continued to be salaried, formed largely by Greeks from the Ottoman-ruled mainland. From Nicholas Charles Pappas’s research we have acquired a profound knowledge of how important for the Greeks was their military recruiting in the Septinsular army (Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service). The coordination of this army was in the hands of Russian officers, such as General Emanuil Papadopoulos23, evidently of Greek origin, who had the task of recruiting soldiers from among the armed irregulars of the Morea, Epirus and Roumeli, the so-called Kleftes and Armatoli, but also the refugees from Souli in Epirus, with the promise that everyone would be used not only in the defence of the Ionian State, but also in a possible war against the Turks for the liberation of Greece."

2) Come to the point of the question about "muslem Albanians".--Euzen (talk) 07:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't get involved in source misrepresentation and don't add irrelevant content. If you want to, you can start a new article about any unit.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The title of the section is "History" and the paragraph from Pappas is 110% relevant. The wording has been copied exactly so that there is no question of "misrepresentation". Or indicate what has been misrepresented. Cherry-picking a non-historian talking about "muslem Albanians" and correcting him to "Albanians" makes YOUR post irrelevant. Leave aside the ethnic monopoly and contribute seriously.
 * I used Pappas as a source, but the part you're quoting is irrelevant; it says nothing about this regiment.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:02, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Go to this link Pappas, page 48, 2nd line, and read "Regiment Albanais".

(btw, discussion assumes good faith.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 11:14, 2 October 2012
 * All the sources mentioned the Albanian component and one of them further characterized them as Muslims, which you disputed. Please read page 41 on the terms Albanesi, Greci, Macedoni and of course that this was a multiethnic unit is mentioned in the article. Pappas is referring to a Greek precursor unit, but that doesn't contradict the other sources that also make reference to these units.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's say that I don't dispute the "muslim Albanians". You cannot alter, correct or interpret the source.--Euzen (talk) 09:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Primary and other sources
I post here a draft version I created recently, contributing original Greek sources that are unaccessible to "learned" westerners who claim to know everything.

History of the Regiment
The Regiment passed from the Russians to the French in 1807.

In Perraivos' text the title "Albanian Regiment" is used only in an official letter submitted by the unit to its commander Minot. In the rest of the text he unofficially refers the unit as "Hellenic Corps" (Ελληνικόν σώμα). He refers to Greek conscripts, while in one occasion makes a clear reference to Albanians.

In other primary sources the fighters of the precursor of the unit are refered as "Greeks", "Epiroto-Souliotes" and "Chimaro-Peloponnesians" (from Chimara and Peloponnesus).


 * Perraivos's 19th century account with its many gaps and personal stories is useless. Not to mention that the issues that you wish to add are raised by you and aren't part of the scholarly discourse. The second part can be found in Pappas's work and it's obviously a different unit, whose Suliots must have been later incorporated in other units like the Pandours de Albanie and then to the Albanian Regiment.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:51, 15 September 2012 (UTC)