Talk:Albanians in North Macedonia/Archive 1

Untitled
The reason I've moved this article is because it has no mention to the Albanians living in the Greek part of Macedonia, and focuses exclusively in what has happend in the FYROM. I've edited it to disambiguate between Macedonia, Socialist Republic of Macedonia and FYROM, Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs, "Macedonian" proselytizing (sic) and actions taken by the Macedonian Orthodox Church etc. If you have any doubt about what these mean you should probably read the corresponding articles.

Furthermore, besides the article's technical inefficiencies that can be fixed in relatively short time, I have several doubts about the article's neutrality and its accuracy, regarding if the revoked rights of the Albanian minority were effectively granded by the local or the federal constitution of Yugoslavia etc. Etz Haim 14:25, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removing the Bulgars
I removed Bulgars as a minority because this is a nation that has disapeared more than 1000 years ago. I don't know what the author has in mind here, may be Bulgarians? Recently there are some organisations to protect the rights of the Bulgarians in Rep. of Macedonia but in my opinion it is better not to list Bulgarians as a minority in Rep. of Macedonia. Some of the Macedonians consider themselves Bulgarians while others do not. However all of them consider themselves Macedonians (the question is only whether this is a separate nation or not). Hence it is not possible to talk for Bulgarian minority in Rep. of Macedonia. (!!!! BUlgarians should be there!!!!! In a democratic country as Macedonia even if one person declares as Bulgarian he shall have the right so. Actually the population in Macedonai should be called as follows Macedonian Slavs, Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Turks, Macedonian Roma, Macedonian Serbs, Macedonian Bulgarians) Freestylefrappe: I removed the no longer relevant conversation regarding neutrality and I have no problem with removing Bulgars. I dont see why this article needs to be cleaned up though...does anyone have any specific complaints concerning the viability or quality of this article? Would anyone be willing to write a Bulgarian or Slavic Macedonian outlook on the ethnicity of FYROM?


 * Hi, Freestylefrappe! I think the article needs a better explanation about this: "The three most debilitating circumstances for Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia currently are lack of rights under the constitution, harsh taxes, /.../ alleged harassment and racism organized by the state."
 * What changes the constittution needs
 * What about the taxes - are they different for Macedoninas and Albanians (probably not)
 * I don't understand what this "harassment and racism organised by the state" is for.
 * --Zinoviev 10:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

freestyle- ill try and get around to expanding it....eventually

Fixing
I think I addressed the issues that you raised and I removed the cleanup tag. I would not be opposed to adding the neutrality-disputed tag though. freestylefrappe 23:26, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! My comments to some parts of the text follow:


 * 1 Albanians of the Republic of Macedonia ... do not speak Macedonian : I think it is better to replace this text by one of the following: 1) Albanians ... do not have Macedonian as their mother tongue. 2) Albanians ... do not have Macedonian as their mother tongue and some of them do not even understand Macedonian.
 * 2 the Macedonian majority under the new constitution dominates the army, police, judiciary system, economy and the government. ... difficulty in obtaining jobs and licenses due to bias in government regulation : Ofcourse this text can stay as is but it would be nice if you provide us with information which parts of the constitution and the governmental regulation the Albanians in Rep. Macedonia object.
 * 3 Under the current law of Macedonia any Albanian candidate trying to become a member of the parliament must receive 3 times as many votes cast in his favor as a Slavic Macedonian candidate in order to win an election : Why? More comments would be nice here.
 * 4 Probably 20% instead of 40% (The official census shows albanians to compromise 25.17% of the population. Whatsoever this number is not that much realistic. over 30% would be much more realistic. Over 33% of the students in elementary schools, high school and university are albanian. This is a great fact!!
 * 5 Albanians and other ethnic minorities suffer from restrictions in voting, education, employment, defense, housing conditions : I think that "voting" should be removed from this list.

--Zinoviev 14:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I got 1, 4, and 5. In Wikisource I've been adding Macedonian legal documents so I will deal with 2 and 3 in a few days. freestylefrappe 20:41, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks again. --Zinoviev 16:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Percentage of population discrepancy and other inaccuracies
Guys, the article as it is now (9 July 2005) contains a discrepancy. The beginning says: “Albanians are the second largest population group in the Republic of Macedonia and comprise 20 percent of the population” And later on it says: “Although Albanians comprise around 40% of population of the Republic of Macedonia” I know this (as any related) issue will be sensitive, but as a mathematician I can say 20<>40 (or shall we have debates about this too?) Can you not take an official statistic from the Bureau of Statistics? Finally, not sure when and where “the referendum for independence happened”… I lived in Macedonia at the time, and did not witness nor hear about it. Can whoever wrote that provide some evidence to the contrary – e.g. publications from that time. Otherwise, I would suggest to remove the reference as it seems like fiction, not a fact. [IG, 9 July 2005, 2:30 GMT]
 * Almost all of the information on this page was derived from the UNPO website. Any discrepancies in this article were caused by edits made based on outside knowledge, or depending on who you ask. The Albanian minority claims 40%, the Slavs claim they makeup only 20%. In regards to you never hearing about the referendum...if you're not Albanian you probably wouldnt have heard. freestylefrappe July 9, 2005 05:36 (UTC)

Link fix needed
When this page becomes unlocked, the link to Roma in the first paragraph needs to be disambiguated to Roma.

The history part should be modified, as it presents incorrect information. 450 000 moved to Turkey?! This part is obviously what the Albanians believe is the truth, maybe the title should be changed to 'Albanian View'

Ethnic distribution
I cannot find the information about ethnic composition of the municipalities of Macedonia. Does somebody have some information about this? Which municipalities have Macedonian and which have Albanian majority? User:PANONIAN
 * The western half of Macedonia is primarily Albanian and the northern half Bulgarian. Specific municipalities vary in ethnic composition. I would take a look at List of Macedonian cities. freestylefrappe 00:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have accidentally looked into this discussion after a while, and I have to ask you: Where did you find the info that the northern part of the country is Bulgarian? --FlavrSavr 01:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that whole article is an Albanian POV inclined, but that'd be understandable, considering the fact that I am a Macedonian. I have asked Dori to do joint look and revision (if needed) of this and the Macedonian NLA (a bit inclining to the Macedonian POV, perhaps?) article, but apparently, he has withdrawn from the English Wikipedia, and he has no intentions to get back. I believe that he got scared of all the nationalism that is all present here on this Wikipedia. There are some factual inaccuracies in the text that need correcting, like for example that the Albanian High education is considered illegal - this is not true, since the state University of Tetovo is perfectly legal for almost 2 years, and there was the the private South East European University that has offered higher education in Albanian a couple years before. Also, Aleksandar_Rankovi%C4%87 was a cruel Minister of Interior Affairs of Yugoslavia as a whole. He was a Serbian, not a Macedonian. And where is the info about the 2001 Macedonian War crisis, the Framework Agreement, Ali Ahmeti, Democratic Union for Integration?

However, at this time, I have no time to engage in this article much, I'll only change the numbers of the ethnic group according to the new census (the Albanians, officially constitute a larger minority). Source - Regards. --FlavrSavr 02:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Mainly this article is in need of updating and disambiguation. I just hope this isn't the disambiguation Ninio, Miskin, and Theathenae have been implementing. While displaying official results is fine, the perceived percentage from the Albanian POV is relevant. freestylefrappe 03:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Did I ever assert that it is irrelevant? :-) It is a POV, that might be true, or might not be, but it should be implemented! But how can we find what exactly is their perceived percentage? That is why, we should attract some Albanians to this discussion. As for Miskin and Theathenae... believe me, I'm not of their kind. --FlavrSavr 03:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Good to know. The relevancy comment was more of a general note, than a point. freestylefrappe 20:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Impossible Numbers
Some of this numbers are just hilarious! There were 162524 Albanians in Macedonia according 1953 census. And yet 450,000 were deported in the 1950s and 1960s! How is this possible. Additionally “Tens of thousands were tortured and an all out genocide of Albanians took place in well-populated cities like Shkup (Skopje) and Monastir (Bitola).” So I guess this means every male Albanian over thirthy? Give me a break, this sounds like the Bulgarian claim that 100,000+ of Bulgarians were tortured in Macedonia because of their Bulgarian conscience. One can ask himself if there are any Macedonian living there. --Cigor 02:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Elections
I find the double standards glaring here. They use the number of people voting for Albanian parties to determine the size of the Albanian minority in FYROM, but they reject using the number of people voting for Macedonian Slav political parties in Greece (and probably in Bulgaria) to determine the size of the Macedonian Slav minority. --Tēlex 17:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's because Bulgaria and Greece keep their minorities oppressed.   /FunkyFly.talk _   17:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, right... notwithstanding the fact that that is FYROM POV, doesn't its inclusion in the article make it POV? --Tēlex 17:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I see your point. The truth is that the strength of an ethnicity can't be used basing oneself on the power of minorities parties, as there is always some spillover; it can't be said if all the voters are Albanians (Torbesh and Turks may vote, on the ground of common religion): and Albanians can vote for mainstream parties, and also non voters may be major or minor, and minors in the ethnicity also.--Aldux 17:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As for oppression.... I don't know Greece, but Bulgaria has quite an impressive history of persecution and oppression of minorities... But I'm sure it's all Turkish propaganda collected by gullible westerners and Bulgarian traitors ;-)--Aldux 17:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah yeah, Bulgaria and Greece oppress. The RADKO incident, when the FYROM Constitutional Court banned a pro-Bulgarian political party as separatist for speaking its mind is perfectly acceptable of course. I wonder why no Bulgarians ever turn up in their census - there surely are Bulgarian identifying people there. --Tēlex 17:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Therefore, Cigor's OR should be deleted (or the same thing be stated as working in all directions). --Tēlex 17:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Done! Hope Cigor doesn't try to shoot me now...--Aldux 17:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. --Tēlex 17:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The big difference is that in Bulgaria and Greece, Macedonians are not recognized as a separate ethnicity. Also I don't understand why there are numbers ranging from 20 to 40%, but election results that undoubtedly add extra information, should be deleted? Revert.--Cigor 17:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If you're adding that, then the fact that it may work in both directions should be added. --

Tēlex 18:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How is that same? Albanians have all possible right in RoM.--Cigor 18:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There's nothing wrong to add these numbers, but they should be in another section regarding politics, not in population.--Aldux 18:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's blatantly unsourced. There is no reason to believe that FYROM is like Wikipedia: people voting along ethnic lines ;-) --Tēlex 18:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Now, hold your horses! Is it or is it not number of Albanians in RoM controversial? Is there or is there not one (only one) Albanian politician that comes from non-Albanian party in RoM? Does the election result add a value to give as better estimate for their number?--Cigor 18:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well maybe we should give more prominence to the fact that Albanian political parties have claimed that Albanians form 40% of FYROM's population. --Tēlex 18:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if you think that international monitored census and elections is less relevant than what Albanian political parties claims, why not? But first you have to explain why do you think their claims are more relevant. --Cigor 18:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For the same reason that you are willing to focus on electoral performance of the Albanian political parties to determine their number rather than the internationally monitored census. --Tēlex 18:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't "focus" on anything here. I'll let the reader to focus on any fact he/she prefer to decide if they are closer to 40% or 20%. Do you or do you not believe that election results give an extra information regarding this issue? --Cigor 18:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the election results are unreliable on the grounds that a) there is little or no evidence that most Albanians vote along ethnic lines (i.e. that spillovers are small) and b) as Albanians are largely Muslims, they are like Roman Catholics and have large families, many Albanians are too young to vote, and c) many Albanians may chose not to vote. --Tēlex 18:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but if there are claims that state they are almost double from official (internationally monitored) censuses, I think for the sake of neutrality, we should have all views/relevant facts represented. I, for one certainly did not delete their claim of being 40%. What the hell, make it 99%. --Cigor 18:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Because the article already claims that before the census, Albanians claimed 40%, Macedonian Slavs claimed 20%, the census result was 25,2%. Not to mention that it cites all previous censi (including that one which said 13%). --Tēlex 18:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Re blind reverts
Aldux, please don't make blind reverts and eliminate all other work with it. --Tēlex 13:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I don't see any hard work, only blatant pov-pushing, without a single source. As said, WP:V and WP:NOPV are not options.--Aldux 13:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Aldux, you make accusations of a subjective natute as "not hard work" e.t.c. Lack of satisfactory sources is not unusual unfortunately in quite a lot of the work contributed in Balkan related articles. Excluding no one, not even you. Seems like using double-standards. Anyway you are propably right in making reverts but do try to keep an open mind while doing it, you drive people away of these articles. I dont think this is your objective (Haas K. D. 01:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC))

Dear Haas,

I am glad that there are objective individuals like you around. What [removed personal attack. - FrancisTyers · 21:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)] (aldux) is doing is indeed double standards. Instead of refuting the insertions, he reverts to a version that is purely subjective and one-sided, it is so evident for someone who has lived for years in the region. Most of the things I instert come from primary sources. e.g. everyone knows, the government buldosed on several occasions the self financed university of Tetovo, there are thousands of weetnesses and the videos of the actions perpetrated by the goverment are stored on many archives. If one ask the BBC for a copy (of course you have to pay for it) they would supply you with one.

Most of the sources that try to minimize or totally erase the problems that the Albanians have had and are continuing to have, come from secondary and biased sources.

Having said all the above it is indeed sarcastic for [removed personal attack. - FrancisTyers · 21:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)] (aldux) to claim that he is blindly rv to a version that is “better”…!!

I hope there is a higher authority here to minimize the damage caused by chauvinists and corrective measures need to be taken. If this is not possible, this article then should be removed from the public.

Best regards,

Objectivee --Objectivee 17:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. many thanks for Telex for his support as well!

Panonina and you Map of the ethnic compositon
Panonian,

You claim that your map is according ot the census of 1981.

If one sees the map one would automatically see that it is a pure fabrication. Even if the census of 1981 is a fabrication itself, in this census there are many areas in macedonia that have a mixture of albanians and macedonians. In your map, even Skopje is not mixed!!! I mean come on man, you really have to be that blind...?!!

--Objectivee 17:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well the way I read the map, "mixed" means that there is no ethnic group that constitutes majority (i.e. >50%). Of course Skopje is mixed, but there is more than 50% Macedonians there, or you dispute this?--Cigor 17:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * a very sentive and interesting way to show the situation :)))))

give me a break!!! if we even use you scientific and extremely objective way of exposing the data, the region of Debar should also be in pink as according to the census 70% were Albanian! As you can see this map has no link to either rationality nor to any census made in 1981 (the one that was made was itselve poisoned by bias and fabrication). there are many other flaws in your map, but I am not even going to bother entering into such a useless and waste of time discussion. [removed personal attack. - FrancisTyers · 21:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)] --Objectivee 18:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I just stated my opinion of the maps (what mixed means). My opinion may be wrong. As for Debar, as far I know there are many Turks there (or Macedonian Muslims). But judging from your initial response to the man you never talked to before I don't see reasons of discussing all the logical inconsistency of your edits. Stay healthy. --Cigor 18:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * your opinion is wrong! if you dont see reasons, than you should not bringing it up in the first place. oh dont worry I am healthy, but I know you wish I was not; you try to erase the albanians in number and in history... but dont worry an entire arsenal of people (i.e. your gov) cannot resist the truth about the numbers of albanins in mac. the truth will triumph very soon.


 * when there will be a swap in power, similar to the belgian case. ;-)


 * --Objectivee 19:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Look man, I am not trying to suppress you or anything like that, but your edits does not make any sense. For example you are claiming “this number is largely affected by the fact that on average the ratio of the number of voters required to elect an Albanian is one to three vis-à-vis the Macedonians”. Firstly, this is not true, second it still doesn’t explain the Albanian proportion of total votes (not parliament members). Second, “The Albanians who have the Macedonian citizenship, but, who work in other countries are not allowed to vote (and be included in the census) in case they have not been to Macedonia for a period of 12 months; this regulation does not apply to the Macedonians, even if it did it would not alter the balance by much, as the vast majority of the citizens who work abroad are Albanian.” Again this is not true. I live in USA and still can’t vote in the elections from here. I must be an Albanian.

“according to Albanians, these statistics are not reliable as the number of Albanians, as well as that of other minorities, was always undercounted. Additionally, Albanians were unable to contest them due to repression from the authorities”.

Well what about the statistics in Kingdom of Yugoslavia? There were 440,000 Albanians in the entire country in 1921 as opposed to ~3 milions now (Kosovo, Macedonia,Serbia and Montenegro). If that is also unreliable do you want me to pull up Ottoman statistics?

“Albanian families were prohibited from having more than two children (Milosavlevski and Tomovski, 1997:205, and Politika ekspres 10-6-1986). Ironically, these measures stimulated the Albanians to have more children and select Albanian names for their children.” Politika ekspres as a source? And what is the name of Milosavlevski reference? So let’s see there was a law to limit Albanian families which caused even bigger growth?! So which is it, the law was never there or it was never implemented?

“In the late 1980s when the autonomy of the province of Kosovo was revoked, and the repression of the Albanian population significantly increased, these developments also took place in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. The Albanian language was removed from public sight, Albanian families were prohibited from naming their children with Albanian names…” Crap after crap. I happened to attend high school in the late 1980s and the building was actually two high schools – one shift was an Albanian high school (Zefljus Marko), other shift was Macedonian one (Nikola Karev).

Tell me something ,Objectivee have you even lived ever in Macedonia? Because judging your edits you have clearly not. Stay healthy, I sincerely mean it. --Cigor 19:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, regarding the alleged suppression of Albanians during the 1990s, how do you reconcile the fact that Albanian parties were part of the Government (ruling coalition) every single time, even though it was not always required for the winning party to make alliance with them (to get majority in the parliament). Tell me, which country in the Balkan has better treatment of Albanians than Macedonia? (or any other ethnic minority for that matter)--Cigor 19:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Romania. --Tēlex 20:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Romania is not in my book of Balkan states, but never mind, what rights have minorities in Romania that are absent in Macedonia? --Cigor 20:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * : firstly I come from macedonia and everysingle intervention that I have made comes from personal observance. the ratio for electing a candidate is true! the rule about the 12 months vs. the census, is in the legislation, go, search and be convinced.

"Well what about the statistics in Kingdom of Yugoslavia? There were 440,000 Albanians in the entire country in 1921 as opposed to ~3 milions now (Kosovo, Macedonia,Serbia and Montenegro). If that is also unreliable do you want me to pull up Ottoman statistics?" the government actualy reported 600,000 the number of albanians in yugoslavija, that was more or less the last verdict prior the break up; there was no official report that said there are 3 million albs in jugoslavija. a propos if you check the official reportings, the usual phrase would be "u smislu".

"Albanian families were prohibited from having more than two children (Milosavlevski and Tomovski, 1997:205, and Politika ekspres 10-6-1986). " I did not add this, but, I know that I was born as a result of the goverment trying to impose on the albanians not to have babies. I am a living example :) The gov advised the albs not to have babies, and they entered a very delicate field: you dont tell to an albanian man how many babies he should have because his mentality will force him to have a few more babies as a result. as for the source, you go find it is out there, follow the reference.

"“In the late 1980s when the autonomy of the province of Kosovo was revoked, and the repression of the Albanian population significantly increased, these developments also took place in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. The Albanian language was removed from public sight, Albanian families were prohibited from naming their children with Albanian names…” Crap after crap. I happened to attend high school in the late 1980s and the building was actually two high schools – one shift was an Albanian high school (Zefljus Marko), other shift was Macedonian one (Nikola Karev). "

This is not my injection to the article, but, as for the naming of the children is concerned, I am willing to remove this as I dont think it is correct.

Nobody denies the fact that there were schools in albanian (which were actually very scarce, and in certain zones). the phrase refers to other important sectors, like the university level education, use of albanian at work, etc.

--Objectivee 21:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected
Edit war a go-go. Discuss it on the talk page then apply for unprotection. I've already left a note for Objectivee, but I'll mention it again here. Please refrain from personal attacks, and remain civil &mdash; these policies are non-negotiable. - FrancisTyers · 21:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Source for "my" map
Now, here is a source for my ethnic map of Macedonia based on 1981 census: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/ethnic_groups_eastern_europe.jpg So, Objectivee, would you please say what is a source for "your" map? PANONIAN  (talk)  22:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is another one that is based on 1991 census and that is same: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/yugoslav.jpg PANONIAN   (talk)  22:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Macedonians in Albania link
This Macedonian Minority in Albania link definitely has no place here. Firstly, it has absolutely no relevance to the subject being discussed here, and if we are going to add irrelevant links, may they not be to hate sites, check this quote: 35 % of Albania's citizens are not ethnic Albanians. Which Balkan country is next in line for some sort of a Framework Agreement is anybody's guess. (Pogradec would be a great location to sign it). An old Macedonian proverb says: "a bear that dances in neighbor's house will soon dance in yours." (Mechka shto igra vo komshii, kje igra i vo kukja) Finally, a whois check, reveals that this domain is owned by the president of the so-called Macedonian Human Rights Movement International, who lives in Toronto, Canada (not Albania) and who also owns this propagandistic site (whois). Quite obviously, the chances of that site which claims to represent the "Macedonian minority in Albania" being a hoax are extremely high, considering that there's nothing stopping me starting a site about the hypothetical Chinese minority in Albania and claiming all sorts of human rights abuses. If this site were in some way related to the topic, then fine, but it isn't, so it has no place here. --Telex 10:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Number of Albanians in Ohrid and Bitola
There are significant numbers of Albanians in both cities, so please dont erase this fact. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Current Issues" it's supposed to talk about issues, yet it makes it look like being Albanian in that reigon IS the issue. What are the REAL issues? And why does it sound like a commercial?
What are the issues presented? I read it and see no issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.213.78 (talk) 15:21, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

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