Talk:Albany, New York/Archive 1

Mayors List
What's up with the partial list of early mayors only? Is there no complete list? And if there isn't, why list only those early ones? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gnhn (talk &bull; contribs).
 * Sounds like a good thing for you to go ahead and add! :)  —Wknight94 (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I was more inclined to delete the oldies! --Gnhn 17:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if there isn't currently a list of old Albany mayors, I'd say keep this or else the info will be lost completely. But I agree that it might be better to have them in a separate list article, esp. if someone wants to make a complete list rather than the sampling that is here now.  Basically, it's good info - just not necessarily presented in a good way.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I found a list and posted it. Is it too many? Should it migrate to its own page?--Gnhn 17:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ouch. Yeah, I'd vote to move the list to its own page and then have a link from here.  I don't know what others would say.  I'm assuming the past mayors of Albany would be a notable subject for an article - individually and as a list - but maybe there's a standard that says otherwise.  —Wknight94 (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

(resetting tab) I second the vote to move the list to it's own article. Based on the US Cities template, the Mayors list should be a part of the Law and Government section possibly with details on notable mayors in the 'Notable Natives' section. More generally, I propose restructuring the article to this template and add the tag. Antonrojo 14:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, finally got around to moving the list of mayors to its own page. Based on resources Wknight94 and I have found, I feel very comfortable about the accuracy of this list through 1800 and for recent history, but the late 19th Century and early 20th Century information is still incomplete (e.g. there are gaps in the dates where no mayor is listed). If someone can find a source for completing that list (other than Political Graveyard, which I have deleted as a reference since it has proven to be very inaccurate), it would be great if you could finish this list and double check the period from 1800-present.--Gnhn 12:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Density?
If the population is 95,658 and the area is 56.6km², how does the density work out to be 4000+/km²?

Picture Request
I'm an Albany resident, and live quite close to downtown. If there's specific pictures you want, let me know, and I'll take 'em for whoever asks. E-mail address on my page. --GaidinBDJ 18:30, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * I added two photographs I took a few months ago from State Street. Let me know if anything else is needed.--Youngtwig 17:35, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Hello Albany people. Is there a place we could all find each other on here anyway? Is there a list of Albany editors or something? Anyway, I know we're shooting for NPOV here, but does the picture of the Agency buildings really have to feature such "typical" Albany weather? Maybe, if it ever clears up, we could get one on a Sunnier day? Billy P 19:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah. I plan on shooting more photos sometime soon, but it's not easy as I don't drive and I live in the suburbs (Guilderland). Hopefully I can get some less "artsy" photos, too. ;) Youngtwig 23:52, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Do you know what the copyright situation would be on postcards? The New York State Museum sells plenty of Albany postcards that I could easily scan in if they'd be usable. Billy P 16:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It's just as easy to take the pictures, and it avoids any possible entanglements. --GaidinBDJ 16:13, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I shot some more photos in Albany yesterday. I think I got a pretty good picture of the capitol building, although someone walked into the photo. There's also some construction going on. At least there's no snow.

I still don't have a skyline photo, though. Anyone have any recommendations for a photo spot? Thanks. Youngtwig 17:49, August 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * If you want the Egg/ESP I'd take it from the other side of the river with a good zoom lens. Otherwise, somewhere on the 787/downtown interchange. --GaidinBDJ 14:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Added a better skyline photo - the same one that the County is using in promotional material --Mets 06:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The images on this page look great! I am removing the image request. -Dr Haggis - Talk 05:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Northern HVAC?
Why is there an external link to Northern HVAC? Seems more like an attempt at advertising than a useful addition. Or am I missing its relevance? Bbpen 18:54, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Deleted link. Bbpen 16:04, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Government?
Added short info about current mayor -- will need to be updated after the upcoming election. Would it be useful to have a Government subheading? BCampbell 18:05, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

"...most beautiful" contradicts the doctrine of NPOV
The article states: "The State Capitol building... ranks... as one of the most beautiful state capitol buildings in the country." According to whom? Without attribution, this is an unsupported opinion. If an authority made that statement, please reinstitute the phrase and give attribution. (I think it's beautiful too, but we have to maintain the golden NPOV. :) ) --tgeller 23:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent changes
I'm not sure I agree with the recent changes to this article. (First off, I hate "United States state of New York" but that's not why I'm here). Some of that school stuff was interesting. Admittedly, it needed to be made more aesthetically pleasing and clearer in some spots but removing it entirely isn't what I would have done. This was just about the only link to Doane Stuart School so you might as well remove that article altogether. If the school section was taking up pages and pages, I might agree but it was a nice compact chunk of interesting facts IMHO. --wknight94 17:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * And why was the link to Erastus Corning removed? Wasn't it the right link?  Did I miss something?  --wknight94 17:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize if some of my edits were awkward (especially "United States state of New York," which on second thought is pretty bad.) I removed school stuff if it was only an external link (WP:NOT a phone book or directory) but I left it if there was a WP article about that school...if I made a mistake on that one, then I apologize and please revert the error. Thank you for informing me of this and make the changes you think should be made; I will comment on them in this space. (Incidentally, thank you for your non-abusive tone, which is different from virtually all comments on my talk page I have received about edits I've made :) ) Paul 18:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, about the "United States state" thingy, if it were up to me I would address each U.S. state on its own and not make references to it only as a component unit of a larger entity (which of course is important to mention, but IMHO states are primarily units unto themselves and not subdivisions). This goes along with my whacky decentralist-secessionist tendencies, and is basically irrelevant, but figured I'd share. Paul 18:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd agree about the removal of U.S. completely. I think that's sometimes the result of people outside the U.S. saying, "I have to say Queensland is in Australia so 'they' should have to say New York is in the U.S.!!".  I'm not sure if that's people being paranoid or me being paranoid about people being paranoid...  Remember, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you!  Regardless, I usually leave it in unless it sounds ridiculous like "Schenectady is an American city in Schenectady County, New York, United States" (American and in the United States - which is what that article used to say).  No offense, but "United States state" qualifies as needing to be fixed...
 * I'll take your thoughts about school stuff sounding like a directory under advisement - but I'll probably put it back in some very short form (unless someone else objects) and maybe make a request for new articles for them. And I'll assume removing the Erastus Corning link was a mistake and put it back as well.  And don't worry about me being abusive which only happens if someone is abusive at me first.  --wknight94 18:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds fine...my advice would be to at least create stubs for any schools mentioned (assuming of course that they meet notability criteria). They're easy and look better than external links in articles. Paul 19:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. :) --wknight94 19:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

i dont know where the place that person cited got there information for the percentages of registered democrats and republicans but the truth is democrats enjoy a 10-1 advantage over republicans in registered voters in the city, the percentages put in the article are a 2-1 advantage. this incorrect.

the name of the metro area is albany-schenectady-troy, not albany-schenectady-troy-saratoga. check the us census website if you need clarification on the name and why saratoga is left out (its not a big enough city and more of the county's non-farm population works outside the county than people from outside the county commute in)

as someone who is working on their masters in political science i can tell you the citation for the fact that there is a 2-1 ratio of dems to reps in the city of albany is not reliable. that same website shows a slight majority nationwide in the number of registered republicans to registered democrats (which any professor will tell you is false, its a slight majority in favor of registered democrats). the numbers from that website most likely are for the county. for the city i have always been told from professors at ualbany that it is roughly 10-1. i can look up more exact data when i have time. i just thought i'd share my opinion that citations should be more scientific and relevant to the data. its a promotional website and not a government website. good place to check would be with the county clerks office

"Freebie" I-90 passes through the WESTERN suburbs, or I guess one could say southern suburbs, of Rensselaer, however the article said eastern. They are east of Albany, but if you are saying how they relate within Rensselaer county as that sentance is worded, you have to put that they are western, not eastern. If someone wants to change it to "eastern suburbs of Albany in Rensselaer county" that would be correct, but for now I just changed western to eastern.Camelbinky 01:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Spectrum?
From the article: Lark street area has many hole-in-the-wall shops like the daily grind, the lark street bookshop and the spectrum 8 film theatre.

The spectrum is a hole in the wall? Also, it's rather far from the daily grind and the lark street book store... &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.194.181.143 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * I'd say Be bold and re-word it to be the way you'd like. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The Spectrum 8 is not only far from the Daily Grind, It's on Deleware Ave. (http://www.spectrum7.com/about/index.html) and not Lark St.

Population of the metro area???
The population for the city itself is given; however, as everyone knows, the population within the legislative boundries of a city is not what many people would generally consider the true population of the greater metropolitan area. The Albany-Troy-Schenectady Metro area is what many people in other places of NY would consider just "Albany", or more appropriately the Capital District. It'd be nice if here, as in many other city articles on Wikipedia, we could put both the official population stat for the city AND the population of the greater metro area (in this case the Albany-Troy-Schenectady metro area), which is according to the capital district article, the 135th Largest in North America (though no actual figure is given there). Thelastemperor 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe the populations here come directly from the U.S. Census and so they come with the complications of that data. I think the best you could do for the "metropolitan area" you're looking for is add up the populations for Albany, Schenectady and Rensselaer Counties.  The Census web site will give all the gory detail for exactly what areas correspond to which population figures.  Often, towns are located inside cities, etc. which makes things very confusing.  —Wknight94 (talk) 21:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article for Capital District is specifically about this "metro area" (the article is not "Capital District (New York)". I corrected a typo in the original comment (since it was wikified, being misspelled caused it to appear un-linked). New York is unique, at least it seems, to have this "Capital District" moniker about the area of three "major" cities (one of which is the capital), three smaller cities, and several villages and suburban development all served by the same broadcast media and a significant amount of print. It would be there that the total population would be given and, since those outside the area might mistake an article about Albany to miss the greater impact of this District, to have that article mentioned. Fwgoebel 22:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

New region edits
I'm tempted to revert the latest regional edits. Those seem like good comments to put into the Capital District article, not the Albany, New York article. Anyone else have an opinion? —Wknight94 (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually got them from the Capital District page, but am fine if you want to pull some parts of them back out. Main thing I was trying to do was get the consistency between terms on the pages related to MSA, region and district, and between the ranking of the market size. Rather than revert wholesale, perhaps trim to keep cross-links and terms consistent? --Gnhn 17:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll confess to not reading super close. All I'll say is that we want to avoid having a lot of information stated in two articles at once.  If you think there is an inconsistency, I'd say go ahead and remove it rather than trying to clarify by pulling over a lot of content from a separate article.  Duplicate info requires duplicate maintenance.  Like I said, this is just from a quick review, but it looked like there was a lot of region-specific info that was not really appropriate for a city-specific article.  I.e., there was probably already too much and the recent edit added even more!  :)  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll trim it.--Gnhn 17:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What does anyone think about changing the link to the Capital District article from being through the Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam CSA to being from the Albany-Schenctady-Troy MSA, no one really has heard of the first one, but everyone knows "Albany-Schenectady-Troy area" ie- the tri-cities. Many dont even believe that Amsterdam is part of the Capital District as evidenced by the opening section and the map accompanying it on the Capital District article. Any opinions?Camelbinky 01:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

US Cities Template
I propose restructuring the article to this US Cities template with the addition of the WikiProjectCities tag. Antonrojo 14:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Alternative Newsweeklies
Metroland is a proven local commodity and resource, but I'm not sure that Valley Voice merits being included here at all, or even having its own wiki. There are LOADS of free newspapers (Parent Pages, etc.) that float around this market that have more reach and tenure than Valley Voice, so including it with Metroland gives it far more prestige than it deserves thus far. I would recommend that it not be listed here until (a) it's been around a little longer, since there have only been about four issues to date, and (b) it gets recognized by an organization like Association of Alternative Newsweeklies as being a legit alternative paper. Follow the link to its page; I would also seriously question whether that wiki merits a delete as non-notable, or at least a SERIOUS review for NPOV. Thoughts? --Gnhn 17:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If you don't think it looks qualified to have its own article, go ahead and send it to Afd. (It's definitely a vanity article but I found a few Google hits for it or else I would have sent it there myself.  I did change its publishing company article to a redirect since having an article for that seemed like overkill).  As long as it does have its own article, it's clearly associated with Albany and so it belongs in this article.  I.e., if it's in WP, then it's worthy of a mention here.  —Wknight94 (talk) 18:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I decided to edit the Valley Voice page to get closer to NPOV, and to see if anyone can come up with a valid explanation for notability at this point.--Gnhn 16:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No one came up with anything that would lend notability to Valley Voice in the past two weeks, so I sent to AfD this morning. --Gnhn 14:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Neighborhoods
I haven't been able to find much information on Albany's neighborhoods online. I'd really love to see some kind of resource for this. The best stuff I've found so far is the Albany Neighborhood Revitalization Plan (http://www.albanyny.org/business/econdev/revitalize.asp), but you've got to piece it all together, and it only focuses on 5 or so neighborhoods. Others are mentioned in the PDF files, though. --Youngtwig 17:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we limit the neighborhood section to neighborhoods that are actually historically considered neighborhoods with that name and not just any people on a conglomeration of streets that got together and set up a neighborhood association under a name they came up with. Most of these entries read like they might have come straight from the association's brochure, website, or other promotional piece of literature.  And many of those "neighborhoods" didnt have those names even 40 years ago!  Neighborhoods such as the South End which comprise of smaller neighborhoods should have a heading, then subheadings for those sub-units, such as the Pastures, Second Avenue, and Krank Park that make up the South End.  Also there is alot of misinformation put in, such as that West Hill has a large preserve, I would like to know what that preserve is, it is not Tivoli Preserve because that is not in West Hill, and it is not Westland Park because neither is that, I dont know what is left...


 * I will be editing BACK to my original edit of the neighborhoods section correcting certain things that are wrong. I was accused of vandalism for doing this, and luckily when i contacted the help desk they agreed with me that it WAS NOT, so first I will be putting my reasons here when I do finally make the changes, but I politely ask that people do not accuse me of vandalism again for legitimate changes- such as-  there is no Normanskill Creek, it is the Normans Kill, it is named after a man whose last name is Normans and it is Dutch, the Dutch word for Creek, it is redundant and you may see that it is simply Normans Kill or just Normanskill  on jimapco maps as well as maps that I happen to publish as well.


 * This neighborhood section needs alot of overhauling, where is the "neutral point of view" in many of these sections on the neighborhoods, like I said in my previous comments, they look like they were taken right out of a promotional website, I hope everyone is fine with me taking a day or two and just making it look more professional and neutral and add neighborhoods that are missing, and consolidate neighborhoods that are part of larger ones (as I mentioned about the South End). So does anyone have an opinion on "neighborhoods" that are just neighborhood associations that took their name from an existing park or street and there was no historical name for that area? Should "New Albany" and "Beverwyck" really be neighborhoods?  I dont even know where the name New Albany was taken from for that association, and the name for the neighborhood Beverwyck was taken from the preexisting park, not the other way around, and the park was named in honor of the original Dutch name for Albany (the park and the neighborhood around it didnt exist when Beverwyck did and was mostly what the Pine Bush looks like today). Camelbinky 17:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * More generally, anything that does not have a reliable source can be removed altogether without question. I have seen a lot of edits to those areas of this page lately and have been waiting for someone to make an issue of it.  Now that you have, go ahead and do whatever WP:V allows you to do.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm in the process right as we speak of editing and overhauling the neighborhoods section, a much bigger task than I thought! I would love to hear from people from these and other neighborhoods to help out and put in things I missed/dont know about. Feelings a little overwhelmed!  I'm trying to make each neighborhood sound special and unique and something to be proud of but without violating the neutral view point policy.  Camelbinky 15:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I've looked by searching google for Washington Square, and other than the neighborhood in NYC and the office complex on Washington Ave. Ext. I've found NO reference to this neighborhood at all, (other than this wikipedia article obviously), so I'll just delete it and hope if I'm wrong and it really is the name of a neighborhood (and not just an organization!)that someone with legitimate reference will correct my error. Camelbinky 17:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this neighborhoods section is getting out of hand, and if all of this pretty subjective minutia is determined to be essential, I would recommend moving it to its own page, like the Mayors page. It completely breaks up the flow of the article, and there are numerous spacing, grammar, spelling and factual errors in it. Both in this section and in the Colonie hamlets (which I see you are also working on, Camelbinky): I would be careful about making absolute declamatory statements about borders and boundaries, since very few of them are formally recognized by the Cities/Towns in the area, and definitions can morph as development pushes people's perceptions of their nebulously defined neighborhoods in new directions.Gnhn 14:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please let me know what spelling/grammar error I've done if any of them are mine, as for factual errors I've been pretty thorough in checking my facts. As for boundaries I use either where the city puts the neighborhood signs on the streets welcoming you to the neighborhood  (the city has done a great job at the research to be accurate), the boundaries that the neighborhood association uses, or for the South End I use the boundaries that have been mentioned many times as official boundaries in the Times Union and on the official city website (I figure these two places, especially the city website are pretty authoritative on declaring the boundaries of the South End).  I agree that for town's little hamlets they are nebulous, but for many of the city's neighborhoods historically many streets are actual neighborhood boundaries.  I do agree that moving it to its own page might be best.  If you would like to do that, go ahead.  As for Colonie hamlets I stand by the fact that Newtonville is not a part of Loudonville and is being pushed aside in just about every article in favor of lumping it with Loudonville or Latham for the sake of popular conceptions by people from outside of Newtonville.  Should wikipedia be a part of destroying a neighborhood's history or preserve it? Either way may be a NPOV violation I guess..but I would err on the side of preserving historical hamlets and not use what people say in every day parlance (otherwise we may lose Dunsbach Ferry, Verdoy, and Crescent Station to Latham one day).Camelbinky 15:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been thinking, and if you could please do me a favor Gnhn and move the neighborhood section to its own article I think that would be best and put for the neighborhood section whatever little summary you think is best. You seem to be much more informed on how to do things like that than I am, I would just mess it up!  I'll hold off on doing any editing to the section until its moved, once moved to its own page I would love to add things on neighborhoods no longer in existence (the little known enclave of French-Canadians that lived where the South Mall Arterial is today, mentioned in McEneny's book on Albany) and neighborhoods that have lost their identity to larger ones (Sheridan Hollow, Dudley Heights), arcane history on each neighborhood, and info on small neighborhoods like Eagle Hill and Melrose that arent mentioned here, and we could also include info on neighborhood associations and even the three BID's (Downtown, Lark, and Central Ave.) Also, since its on the "to do list" once the neighborhood section is just a small summary paragraph we can combine it with parks and waterfront (and whatever sections etc. covers!) for a "cityscape" section. Then we'll be one step closer to featured article status.Camelbinky 23:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Gnhn for making a separate page for the neighborhoods in Albany! 24.182.142.254 00:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)Camelbinky 00:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Performing and Fine Arts/Reorganization
I took a stab at redoing the culture section to include stuff that was really Albany specific, not just that we had tattoo parlors and piercing shops (which every city of this size has). I also dropped the Truman Capote quote, since it also isn't Albany specific. I'd like to see this section expanded further if folks are so inclined. I did some reorganizing to cluster like subcategories together, hopefully so it makes a little more sense when you're trying to find something.--Gnhn 19:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Image/Text Formatting Glitch?
After I moved the big list of Mayors to its own page, I am now seeing bleedover of the images over text, and also that the "edit" buttons for the first few categories and subcategories are getting pushed down into the article by the image files. I've tried to play with some fixes but my coding skills here aren't all that great and I don't want to mess something up. . . if someone better knows how to get the image files distinct from the text/edit bars, help would be much appreciated in getting the page looking right again!!--Gnhn 12:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've seen that several times and I think it's a Wikipedia bug. Currently, I'm not seeing that since I must be running at a different resolution but it does happen at various times.  If someone knows of a mistake on an editor's part that causes that, I'd like to know as well.  —Wknight94 (talk) 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I figured out the problem; moved some images around to ensure they weren't breaking over edit boxes.--Gnhn 12:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, moving them around sometimes helps - but I think it still depends on what screen resolution people are using. I haven't figured out what the pattern is but I'm guessing they're aware of the problem.  —Wknight94 (talk) 12:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Syracuse DAB
Editors of Albany, New York: I thought that you would be interested in looking at the talk:Syracuse page. Currently, a group is attempting to remove the disambiguation page located there in favor of the article for Syracuse, Italy. Seeing as this change might have precedence affecting other upstate New York articles, I hoped that you would be interested in chiming in. Thanks for your interest one way or the other.

Arbitron ratings
I removed the Arbitron ratings from the main page for a variety of reasons: Besides, other cities don't have their Top 10 stations posted on their city pages. Why should Albany be so different, especially with the demographic differences between city and suburbs? Scrabbleship 11:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Their presence on the main Albany, New York page is very clunky and out of place. I could make a case for having them on the Media in Albany, New York page though.
 * The official Arbitron name for the Albany market is Albany-Schenectady-Troy-Saratoga and much of what goes on in the ratings doesn't reflect the tastes of Albany proper. Anyone who has spent considerable time in Albany proper (or lived out of town and heard the Andrew Wilkow take on the city) knows that there is no way that WGNA-FM is #1 in the city limits.
 * It could be slighty risky to put rankings in an article given the veritable witchunts Arbitron's legal department has gone on in the past given threatening letters to certain message boards (but not others) that even posted rankings. I should mention that I am against such practices (given it falls into the area of potential fair use violations on their end) and left a position for one of said boards for that among other reasons.

I agree with your edit 100%. That had been bugging me too, and as it got more and more out of date, it looked worse and worse on the main page.--Gnhn 13:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Arbitron name for the Albany market is Albany-Schenectady-Troy, not Albany-Schenectady-Troy-Saratoga. --Kuroki Mio 2006 12:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Note on image deletion
Unfortunately, it appears that we have had many of our images deletion due to two reasons, the first being that many people have forgotten to properly cite their images and apply the correct licensees. The second is the fact that we have some people here at Wikipedia who go out of there way to make life difficult and have become the self-nominated imaged police. Since their actions have had a significant affect on this article, we need to be extra cautious to make sure that we follow proper guidelines. However, if you see images missing, please do a Google search or check answers.com, download them, and restore them, as they are most likely legal but improperly cited.

Pronunciation
I am wondering how the name of Albany is actually pronounced by natives of our capital city. I am from Orange County, NY and have alway pronounced it "aul-buhnee" with the "al" sounding like the word all. but whenever I travel out of state people pronouce it "al-bahnee" with the "al" sounding like the name Alan. So I'd like to know which is correct. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Strideranne (talk • contribs).
 * The way you're saying it is correct. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Crossroads City
I've lived and worked in this area for 15 years and never heard that term, whereas most anyone who has spent time here has heard "Smallbany". You can't claim people are "pouring into" a city that has lost population steadily for several decades. (The growth in our MSA is primarily in Colonie and Clifton Park . . . and I presume that those newcomers aren't generally the underground/independent artists you're citing). All of the text about "some people moving from Boston or NYC" is unencyclopedic and anecdotal. . . people have ALWAYS moved between the cities in the Northeast. While I applaud your efforts to promote Albany's arts and culture (I've been working to do so for years myself), you can't make something so just by saying it, as you appear to be attempting via the "Crossroads City" moniker. "Tech Valley" has caught on in the local media and vernacular, but until I hear or read "Crossroads City" used in the same sort of "everyone around here know what we're talking way" that "Smallbany" or "Tech Valley" or "The Collar City" are, I can't see it being listed as having replaced any other marketing/discussion tags to describe Albany. Gnhn 13:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Who ever wrote this obviously does not know what they are talking about. 2007 census shows that the city of Albany population has gone up (not alot, but still). So, please stop deleting or "editing" the section

can you please cite where you saw this 2007 census data? from the cdtc (capital district transportation committee) and the cdrpo (capital district regional planning commission) both show a decline in the city population, you might be looking at data from albany county or the albany-schenectady-troy msa both of which do have an increase. if you do have official census data showing the increase please let me know where this is, it surprised me


 * I agree with Gnhn that "Crossroads City" does seem out of place in the article, even though I have fought hard for the removal of smallbany because its negative, I must be fair and fight for the removal of "crossroads city" even though it is positive. I fight for truth, not just civic pride!  (I wish we thought of ourselves as crossroads city though! It would be a great slogan and have some good use!) 24.182.142.254 20:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Civic pride for Albany? You have got to be kidding me... LOL 24.148.118.190 19:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've researched this "Crossroads City" deal quite a bit in the past year since this discussion last came up. I've come up with no references or citations for it being applied to Albany or the Capital District. Along with the assertion in the lead to that section that it is equadistant to Boston, Montreal, Buffalo, and the city of New York it just seems to be false or someone's personal opinion. Buffalo is 248 miles west, Boston is 175 miles east (putting the halfway point 30 miles west of Albany, which would put it in Amsterdam, NY); the city of NY is 135 miles south, Montreal 225 miles north (putting the halway point 45 miles north, I believe that would put it in Glens Falls). So, while that is pretty close the point is that the distance to Buffalo is almost twice as that to the City. That just doesnt seem like a crossroads to me, plus who from any of those cities is coming to Albany anyways? Not enough to do in Boston?Camelbinky (talk) 08:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"Smallbany"
This section was recently restored and while I had no part in it, I wish to voice my support for it being a part of this article and staying here. Many times I have welcomed someone who has moved here from Lon Guyland (Long Island, as some of us pronounce it around here) and like its urbanesque nature, yet at the same time complain that it's too small. Several years ago, I welcomed a Norwegian Jaycee to the area and drove her around Center Square. She remarked how similar it really is to Amsterdam, Netherlands. Fwgoebel 19:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So what's the protocol here when someone just keeps deleting something legitimate from a page without justification? (I've had to put the Smallbany info back in three or four times now, and whoever keeps deleting it never offers any discussion or valid justification). I haven't had to deal with this before. Any tips? Gnhn 03:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Generally, it's a good idea to leave a note on the talk page of the user (or IP address) removing the content. If it seems clear that they're just blanking sections left and right, one of the  user warning templates may be appropriate (see WP:UTM under "Removing content" for more info on those templates).  Or, you can leave a more specific message, as I've done at User talk:144.211.195.112 (for the last particular IP who has removed this), and hope that they stop or join the discussion.  Other than that, just keep restoring the section, and other editors will probably do so as well, as long as they see this discussion and agree with keeping the section (which, to add my two cents, I do).  And, of course, always remember to be civil, no matter how annoying these repeat changes get! :) —Krellis 03:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I just did another restore. This time though, I broke the section into three smaller ones, and put Smallbany at the bottom. At least, those who are in favor of keeping it here are participating in this talk page, whereas those who are not, do not. A "Tech Valley" sub-section can easily go below the "Smallbany" sub-section. I added a "See also" List of city nicknames in the United States that also supports the inclusion, albeit at the bottom of the article (where a See also belongs). Fwgoebel 12:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I for one don't see Albany this way and don't want to create this sort of discourse around the city. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.140.6.114 (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC).


 * This article isn't "creating" it. It's acknowledging it. I think it's better to embrace and explain it than it is to pretend people don't talk about it. Google the word "Smallbany" or "Smalbany" . . . the number of hits will demonstrate that it's a long standing part of our cultural history, whether you personally like it or not. Gnhn 03:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But the "Smalbany" mentality is not a LOCAL one. It's from the college students who en mass come here to Siena, UAlbany, Skidmore, and the rest of the colleges from downstate.  They think that compared to the NYC metro area we have less to do and see.  And yes we do have less if you compare metro area to metro area.  We still have lots more than their individual Long Island towns have, its unfair to compare Albany to NYC.  Compare us to Yonkers or Hempstead and we have a much better standard of living and nightlife and shopping. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.206.97.30 (talk) 15:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I completely disagree that "Smallbany" springs from the colleges . . . you'll hear it more among oldtimers in town on Lark Street than you will on the Uptown Campus. If the college kids use the phrase (I work at one local college, and attend grad school at another), then they have learned it from the locals. It is definitely a home-grown inferiority complex, and oftentimes in the local arts and music community (both of which I have been heavily involved in for 15+ years) it is used as a crutch or an excuse when the local community doesn't support something worthwhile and worthy. The word can be used fondly as well as derisively, and I think the article is clear about that. It's great that certain segments of the arts community are exploding downtown, and I'm thrilled to see/hear that . . . but suppressing/stifling the word "Smallbany" isn't what made those things happen, and it won't hurt those things in any way either. I get a sense that at some of the resistance to the phrase in this article is from people who have moved here from elsewhere, and don't want their friends in their former cities seeing it and thinking that they've moved to some provincial backwater or little unimportant place. I don't know many locals who are bothered by the phrase. Small can be charming. Embrace it. Gnhn 19:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * A promotional website for anything "Albany" would very likely stay away from the "Smallbany" term, but this isn't a promotional website. This is an encyclopedia article, and that means that anything good and bad, as long as presented with a neutral point of view, that exists is fair game. Some other articles with which I've been involved have had subjects having their own good and bad points. As of now, "Smallbany" is not an article unto itself, nor does the name redirect here (maybe it should? Not a decision I'm going to make). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fwgoebel (talk • contribs) 20:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I was born at St. Peter's hospital in Albany and have lived here ever since all the days of my life. My father lived here from the age of 10 until 18 and then again from age 38 on to today. I have never heard anyone say "Smalbany" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.78.243.24 (talk) 19:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC).
 * One of the reasons why one consults an encylopedia is to learn something one doesn't already know. Including something like that here serves that purpose. While it may reinforce that which one already knows, it also educates about those things previously unknown. Fwgoebel 19:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If everyone is so hung up on being honest and showing the bad, then how about adding to either this section or making its own section for all the references in movies and tv that Albany has. Shows include- all the law & order series, the simpsons, seinfield, guilding light and MANY more.  the movie damnation alley is all about going TO albany after a nuclear war.  the character olivia benson on law & order svu is supposed to have gone to college at siena college in loudonville!  lets put out some positive too and not tear down only. how about the films that were made in and around?  the time machine, war of the worlds, ironweed, the many books that take place in and around albany —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.206.59.120 (talk) 16:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I'm a lifetime resident of Albany, not Smallbany, who ever keeps putting that in, needs to stop.:::
 * STOP putting the smallbany part in here! As a recent article in the Albany Times Union pointed out, Hartford, CT is of similar size and has less than we have but yet they have a bigger opinion of themselves.  One would not find something like this in their article, lets stop thinking we are small when we arent!!!  No other city of less than 100,000 has as much as we have.  If you don't like living here and what we have, THEN DONT CONTRIBUTE TO OUR ARTICLE!  There are Albany bashing websites that would love to have you.  I encourage all who agree with me to continue to delete the smallbany section whenever it pops up, lets unite and show we are in the majority! I <3 ALBANY!
 * Have you actually READ what the Smallbany paragraph says? Followed the links that are cited in it? I'm not sure why you think it's such a bad thing meriting repeated vandalism of the main page and this discussion page . . . it is neutrally written, properly cited, and ends with a positive, about the test marketing, etc. Minneapolis marketed itself as the "Mini-Apple" for many years, playing up the benefits of being a smaller, yet still cosmopolitan city. There's nothing wrong with Smallbany. And even if there was, the purpose of this Wikipedia page isn't to be some public commercial or marketing plug for Albany. Since when are we competing with Hartford for promo pages on the Internet?Gnhn 21:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have any opinion on this debate but I'll ask you nicely to tone down this riot-enciting rhetoric. Discuss this in a nice community-minded way or someone is likely to be blocked and the article is likely to be protected - and it won't necessarily be protected in the version that you favor.  You might also want to take a read through WP:OWN.  —Wknight94 (talk) 23:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

it would be nice to have a legitimate discussion on this issue. the people putting it back in over and over have not been cooperative either, we both are to be blamed in my opinion. the argument, from what i understand is- its being fair minded having it in and its true. me and many others dont believe it to be true and consider it to be the same old disparaging remarks made by outsiders and not natives. the other side would say natives DO make the remarks. the quote from the former mayor of the city of ny is taken from an article that even states that the smallbany idea is an outsider and erronous (spelling?) idea and that kotch was speaking at at a time that doesnt reflect what albany is today. if thats the main citation to show that people believe in the smallbany idea then its an old (kotch's remark is over 15 years old i believe, but the article is newer) citation and i would like to see a REAL discussion, and not- "well i think its true and it should be there, so there". btw- it was the day after i posted a response here about putting in positive things and not just tearing down that things started being put in about movies, tv shows, the top rankings in magazines appeared and lots of other postive things (including a revision of the smallbany section making it less disparaging), im very proud to have played my part in that motivation, everyone who did add should be equally proud, as should EVERYONE be proud of this article in its whole, lots of people have done great work making this better and better everyday. i just want real dialogue on this point. my pain point is that i dont believe anyone has shown proof (other than "ive heard people say smallbany" and really in this entire "dialogue" on this page that's all ive seen as proof) that this idea is either A- widespread among natives, or B- used affectionately or in any other positive connotation by anyone; as mentioned in the section


 * I would also like to point out that Troy's article doesnt mention their negative connotation as a "troilet" or the many bad insults about their city (any true Albanians reading this can probably come up with over a dozen by the end of this sentence). I have read through and checked the articles on over 2 dozen cities and several states, looking for sections on stereotypes about those areas. With the exception of one brief sentence in the article on NJ about smelling the refineries from the highway i have found that most other articles dont address anything like how the albany article address's the smallbany phenomenon (and come on- NJ?! if there was ever an article that deserved an entire section on stereotypes...to begin with- the mafia anyone?)148.78.243.26 05:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Since I havent gotten any responses from my humble request for a legitimate honest fair debate and normally the pro-smallbany faction is quite punctual in responding within a day, I ask that the powers-that-be in wikipedia please allow me to do away with the smallbany section. The test-market sentence would be moved to a more appropriate location for it was only put in the day after I put in this discussion section that we should put in the positive and not just tear down.  I would assume it was someone's good-intentioned way of doing just that and softening the smallbany section, though the two really arent related, the reason we are a good test market isnt because we are small (which the test market is the albany-schenectady-troy msa and not albany itself, and our msa is quite large as msa's go) it is because our economic demographics match the nation's as a whole and of our unusually high amount of retail space per person (one of the highest in the nation in fact, along with one of the highest number of movie screens per person)24.182.142.254 00:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Just for the record: the test market thing has been in there since the Smallbany section was created. Go back and read the history to confirm. It was not added in response to your post. This, frankly, is part of the reason why I keep defending the section . . . because I feel like people aren't really READING the Smallbany section, but instead are reacting to the topic in generic, emotional terms. I've actually written about this extensively in Metroland and other places off-Wikipedia, and I think it's a fascinating part of the community's collective self-image. I still think its a valid piece of the article, but I'm getting tired of putting it back every time someone who hasn't read it makes a knee-jerk removal in the name of some righteous sense of civic pride. (I'm not referring to the preceding anonymous poster, who is at least taking the time to be thoughtful). So I guess knock yourselves out if you want to bland the page down so that it's indistinguishable from Hartford's. In the name of civic boosterism, you're taking a piece of character away.Gnhn 11:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm very glad that someone responded to my request for a dialogue and debate on this issue, and thank you Gnhn for the compliment pointing out that i was taking time to be thoughtful. But I dont want to "win" through default, I really want to stimulate a debate and get this entire article to be the best, and not "bland the page down so that it's indistinguishable from Hartford's".  Yes I have alot of civic pride, and yes I want our page to be infinitely more professional than Hartford's, I want people to read our article, then read any other city's article and say "that article on Albany was much better and more professionally done that other city".  I was just annoyed that the pro-smallbany was just as much a knee-jerk reaction as the side I support, with no facts or figures to back them up, just random articles that dont truly show that smallbany is used by natives or even that widespread (Koch's statement didnt use smallbany and there is no evidence he ever knew the term).  If someone could find or get the sienna institute out of that college to do a poll on the term smallbany (a poll of residents of the city of Albany, not of the suburbs, who really cares what a person in Loudonville thinks of Albany anyways)that could be something that would be useful and not the justifications that have been used in the past- ive heard people use it.  that just isnt scientific to me.  I hope and encourage more to step forward on either side of the debate and give your opinion, but please back it up and have an open mind to the other side.24.182.142.254 19:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Please remove this "Smallbany" section - I find it hard to believe that more than one person decided that was a legitimate fact to put up in the Albany, NY section of your fine site. It only insults the city, offers nothing to a reader and is quite untrue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JKennedy442 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is pretty apparent that whole section is just made up. I've lived in Albany most of my life and have only heard that term once and it was used in the context of a bunch of computer programmers because they always end up working with one another at different companies in the Albany vicinity.

The Smallbany section is back again! Simply buried with another section. I wrote a very nice, even sided, thought out note on here asking for a discussion and justification by anyone who wanted to keep it versus those of us that wanted to remove it, only two wrote and it was against. Since someone decided to stick it back in without discussing it here with us I suggest it be removed. Again- if you want to keep it, justify it and debate us, if you just stick it in without stepping forward then you're just putting it in to hurt Albany. Read what I wrote on 15 July 2007 and debate us on why you think it's so necessary and correct in the first place. Camelbinky (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It isn't "back again." It never went away. After lots of dialog it was edited and de-emphasized, but it's never been removed. People didn't "stick it back in" in violation of YOUR desires. The issues people raised were generally addresses. It was de-coupled from information related to marketing, and properly cited, etc. It seemed that was an acceptable solution, given that it has sat that way since last July. If you hadn't noticed it all that time, then why have a fit about it now?Gnhn (talk) 14:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would again suggest you look at the cited links. If the Capital District Business Review refers to "Smallbany" in print, then it's not a phrase made up by college students or people here. Google "Smallbany" or "Smalbany" and look at the THOUSANDS of references that come up. Just because YOU haven't heard the phrase, or YOU don't like the phrase, doesn't mean it's not legitimately addresses or included.Gnhn (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop refering to this as being "YOU" this and "YOU" that. It is not JUST me, look at the dialog above! Many others have complained and asked for this to be removed. I read the ALBANY Business Review online every day (it is NOT the Capital District Business Review, website-  albany.bizjournals.com).  You can use words like that to make it seem like I'm the only one who complains.  The journal, like any other newspaper article you can find, talks about "people use the term", who are these people?!  These articles are heresay and are perpetuated by people who keep putting the smallbany part in this article.  Sorry it took soooo long for me to see it, I have a life and other things to do, just because it took me since July means nothing.  Again, I ask for A DEBATE FIRST.  Where are your facts concerning hard numbers as to WHO uses or believes in the idea/word of Albany (and who lives in Albany, this is an article about Albany, not an article about what people in Clifton Park or Guilderland THINK about Albany).  There is a book that lists all cities in different categories and Albany is at the top of all categories (except climate and mental health categories), how can Albany be "smallbany" when always being highly ranked.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.243.25 (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record: the newspaper that comes out here is known as the Capital District Business Review . . . it is a part of a national group of papers, and the website has Albany in the URL, but it is not called the Albany Business Review: see http://www.usnewspapers.org/state/newspaper.asp?url=4501. Also, there is nothing that says that only people who live in a city can edit or have opinions on the city. Do you live in Albany? Your bio seems to indicate not. Also, there is nothing about the word "Smallbany" that has anything to do with whether or not the town is ranked highly in various categories. The two points have nothing to do with each other. Finally, you can't demand debate if no one wants to have it. A couple of posts back you wrote, in response to a post from me, "I'm very glad that someone responded to my request for a dialogue and debate on this issue, and thank you Gnhn for the compliment pointing out that i was taking time to be thoughtful. But I dont want to 'win' through default, I really want to stimulate a debate." No one's taking you up on your offer. It's not a win/lose proposition. The Smallbany section has been moved, edited, shortened and amended to address your various concerns along the way. It seems solid, justified, properly referenced, and properly linked to other sections of the page at this point, which would seem to be a nice compromise, all things considered.Gnhn (talk) 15:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If it is so solid, justified, and properly referenced why is it that TWO people agreed and posted here that they want the smallbany section removed? The fact that they posted that and no one in favor of smallbany wanted to have a legitimate debate on the merits should show that the section should not be in this article. You think that no one being in favor it writing back to me means that it should stay...if no one is defending it and only people opposed to it are writing then it should be removed!  Why would you want to be in favor of keeping something that so many people have written in favor of removing?!  If no one in favor of keeping it has written anything then oh well they won't miss it when it's removed.  As far as living in Albany I am still a registered voter in the city of Albany, my father has lived in Albany since 1950, I was born at St Peter's on New Scotland, I graduated from SUNY Albany with a bach. w/ a dual major in poli sci/history, I lived and worked on Delaware Ave, but am currently working on my master's degree in poli sci at MU in Columbia, MO and spend my time outside of ...erased broken code... son still there in Albany.  I never said people outside Albany shouldn't contribute, and this is not the first time you exagerated and make it seem like I say or feel something that I don't, so please don't "assume".  What I said is that if smallbany is how people outside of Albany feel, then being in an article about smallbany it does not belong, if people in Clifton Park feel this way then put it in an article about Clifton Park.  As I've mentioned the article in New Jersey does not go into the stereotypes about it regarding garbage or the mob, neither does Troy mention "troilet" or Cohoes the childhood rhyme "hold your nose we're in Cohoes".  Smallbany is a stereotype and as you've seen from other people's posts this one of many that people feel strongly about.  Read what others wrote "I've lived here my whole life" etc and etc, these are people who have lived in Albany.  As far as how Albany is ranked, it does matter, because what smallbany represents is that Albany does not have what other places have and is small, the facts show that isn't true and if someone thinks smallbany represents what albany is, that would be false.  Nothing is more worse than a stereotype than a false stereotype. 148.78.243.25 (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So since you want a debate, we will just leave it the way it is until someone steps up to debate it with you. Good plan. And by debate it with you, I don't mean "everyone else agree with me," which seems to be what you really want. Frankly, at this point, I have a hard time understanding why you're getting your knickers in such a bunch over what's still left on the website. Do you really think that a three sentence blurb about Smallbany on this page is hurting Albany somehow? Seriously? Do you think businesses or students or workers don't come here because they are worried about whether people use the word "Smallbany" or not? As somebody noted above (in some earlier version of this debate), wikipedia pages aren't marketing pages. They aren't supposed to only list the good things about a place, person or thing. I don't care who or who hasn't lived here all their lives. Doesn't make a lick of difference about whether something is factual and verifiable on Wikipedia. Don't be petulant and bring up meaningless, extraneous arguments just because you're not getting what you want. That's what happens in a community where everybody is an editor. Live and let live, you know? Don't bust a vessel thinking that you're making a difference in the quality of life and business prospects of Albany by fighting against the word Smallbany. You're not.Gnhn (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

People who do agree with me have been the only ones talking on here since I originally made the plea for a debate! I have never stated that I want everyone to agree with me, please reread my original call for a debate! You lie, misinform, and bully others. I ask that you stop. I seriously dont care to come on here anymore because of what you do on here. YOU bring up about who lives here and who doesnt and say that I am the one who doesnt live here and then when I inform you as to where I live suddenly you claim I am the one making it seem like non-natives shouldnt contribute. Just one of many many many examples of your twisting the truth and bullying others, and I'm not the only one who has had this problem from you. You do do some good work on here and have helped me in the past. I do not know why you think smallbany should be kept. You have never given anyone any legitimate reason, where is the proof that it is a term used by natives? And yes, in an article about Albany it IS important that the term smallbany be one used by people who live there and not in the suburbs, if it is a term used by Colonie residents about the city then the Colonie article is where it belongs. You had a chance to have a civil polite debate about the article and put forth any legitimate reasons why it should be included, others took the opportunity to say they didnt like it and NO ONE said they wanted to keep it. As I stated before, if no one spoke up for keeping it then why keep it? Obviously many others agree with me from the comments above. I'm sorry they and I do not agree with you and it upsets you, but I dont see why keeping something that is a stereotype and factually untrue is so important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.243.26 (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this is a bit late but I have just come across this talk page. Some compelling points were made on both sides, but I think that the real question we need to answer is if smallbany is notable enough among Albany area residents to warrant inclusion. As some of you have said, it seems to be the general consensus that disparaging titles given by 'out-of-towners' are not relevant on a wikipedia article, and all sides of the story given from a neutral point of view are. Then what we need to know in order to include this is if a reasonable number of folks in the Albany area are at least aware of the term. Given that smallbany is just an informal nickname, it seems important to know how many Albanians use, or at least have heard of, the term in order to justify it being notable enough to be included. If many people around albany know about it then I see no reason not to at least mention it. ZerglingChamp (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

city seal
The image of the city seal was removed due to licensing issue: Can it be replaced with: http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/btlflags/artillery/AlbArtReg.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mathieu (talk • contribs) 00:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC).
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=delete&page=Image:Albany_City_Seal_a.jpg

Does anyone know where to find a city seal we CAN use? And a flag as well? Both would be useful to have, I've noticed other cities tend to have them.Camelbinky 15:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Auto peer review
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 04:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
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Architecture?
I think a nice addition to this page would be a section on the architecture of the city (unless one has already been written and I missed a link or something in the text). There are quite a few notable buildings, especially historic ones - the capital, State Street (Wellington, the church), the Gov's mansion, the amories, etc. etc. - unfortuntely, I am really not the guy to do it though, and know very little about the subject. I can, and will, try to contribute in other areas. Oaxaca dan 15:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Great idea. Albany is known for both its historic (NYS Capitol, Executive Mansion, SUNY Central, State Education Building, City Hall, cathedrals, etc.) and modern (Empire State Plaza, UAlbany) architecture. On Wikipedia, some cities have entire articles on their architecture, but a section on the Albany page is a good place to start. --Albany NY 01:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm changing the architecture section that deals with the Quackenbush and Schuyler. The way it is worded sounds like the Schuyler Mansion is the modern day name for the Quackenbush House. They should have separate listings, or list both along with the Ten Broeck and Cherry Hill mansions

"European founded city"?
Is there any city in the US that was NOT founded by Europeans? The opening paragraph I believe would sound better if it just said "Albany is the fourth oldest continuously inhabited city in the United States", seeing as how there are not today Native American CITIES. I know some people want to be sensitive, but the fact is that there is a definition of city, and we should not have to clarify things to the point of stupidity.
 * Albany is the second oldest continously inhabited city, it is the fourth oldest city. jamestown and st augustine have not been continously inhabited, the original jamestown is today abandoned and has malarial mosquitos, the modern day reenanctment of the town is built across the river. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.78.243.24 (talk) 02:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Albanian???
I see we have a section on Famous Albanians - is that the correct term for someone from Albany (i.e. the same term used as that for someone from Albania)? Do we have some reference to that? It seems confusing. I don't live there so can't verify it easily. If this is really true we should add it to the disambiguation page at Albanian -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 15:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've heard it used informally, but have no idea where a citation could be found for that. I definitely don't see it used in more formal settings, due to the confusion with people from Albania and the fact that it just sounds a bit weird in reference to people from Albany.   It might just be easier to title it "Famous people from Albany"  or "Notable people from Albany"-- Oaxaca dan 15:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As a reference, Binghamton uses "Famous residents" while Buffalo has the page Famous people from Buffalo, NY. Utica uses "Utica people." Syracuse uses "Famous Syracusans" but has a separate page for List of people from Syracuse, New York.  I prefer the Buffalo Style, but would use "notable," because some of the historic people are notable, but not necessarily "famous."  But in the end, it really doesn't matter to me -- Oaxaca dan 15:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility would be "Notable Albany Natives". I agree to using the term "notable" though. Maybe "Notable residents" would be best. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * yes, the official term for a resident of Albany IS Albanian. The city uses it.

Section headings/Article layout
I've moved and renamed a few section headings for consistency with city article naming conventions as described in WikiProject Cities. This makes the article more coherent to a new reader. Momos 06:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Name of metro area
The metropolitan statistical area name for the albany region is the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA, NOT the Albany-Schenectady-Troy-Saratoga. Whoever keeps adding Saratoga to the name, please be kind enough to stop. The census website, any almanac, any encyclopedia, and any other official government publication can be used as a citation as to the official name of the MSA. Yes, Saratoga county has pushed for the use of the name Saratoga in things regional, such as using Capital-Saratoga Region instead of Capital District, Capital Region, or Albany region. Using their influence with the state (particularly through State Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno) the state often does use Capital-Saratoga region on some maps for public (but not official) use, such as on Thruway location maps at rest stops. There are many reasons why Saratoga is not used in the name of the metro area by the census bureau (the ONLY authority that determines boundaries and names of MSA's, and therefore any name used by anyone else is not official). Some reasons why include the fact that a MSA consists of a central city (or cities) which meet certain population requirements along with the county in which the city sits and any county in which a certain percentage of the non-farm employed residents commute to one of the counties that has a central city. Saratoga and Schoharie are part of the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA because they meet the percentage of non-farm employed residents commuting to either Albany, Schenectady, or Rensselaer counties. If Saratoga Springs ever meets the requirements to be a central city then the name of the MSA would be changed to Albany-Schenectady-Troy-Saratoga Springs, and would not use the name Saratoga anyways. This because the name of the city is Saratoga Springs and not Saratoga, Saratoga being the name of a seperate town on the cities eastern boundary and includes the villages of Schuylerville and Victory.
 * Saratoga Springs and the surrounding communities are defined as an Urban Area, with a population over 51,000. It could have its own metropolitan planning organization, but instead chose to combine forces with the Capital District Transportation Committee. That might account for part of the confusion. Considering how many Clifton Park and Saratoga residents commute to and from Albany County, it makes sense to consider it part of the region for planning purposes. AS suburban sprawl conitnues, the Saratoga Springs Urban Area and the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA will soon be contiguous anyway.


 * PS, please sign your posts. --Triskele Jim (talk) 19:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

First off- an urban area does not get its own MSA. MSA is a designation given by the census bureau, and in the state of NY it is for areas surrounding incorporated cities and based on the population of the city and the counties surrounding it. Saratoga Springs population is around 26,000, and that's it, not 50,000. Both the county, the city whatever you want to say, does not have a choice as to what metro area it is a part of. They did not "choose to join forces". I am guessing you may be the person who keeps changing the population of Saratoga Springs to be 50,000 on several articles. Please stop. The metro area of Albany-Schenectady-Troy is that name only, for a specific technical reason, and it encompasses Saratoga county because of the percentage of non-farm employees who commute from that county to Albany, Schenectady, or Rensselaer counties. THAT is why Saratoga county is a part of the A-S-T MSA, and the small population of Saratoga Springs is why it is NOT a central city of said MSA. There are census bureau regulations and rules on all of this. It is not a democracy of people getting to vote and decide what their city's population is or should be and if they are important. The Saratoga Springs "urban area" is not a legitimate census designation and is not on par with the A-S-T MSA, which already encompasses said area, so I dont understand your last comment on "they will soon be contiguous anyway". Please stick to facts and not wishful community pride. Camelbinky (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Name of metro area
The metropolitan statistical area name for the Albany, NY area is officially Albany-Schenectady-Troy, and not the Albany-Schenectady-Troy-Saratoga. Please refer to the census bureau for clarification. Saratoga county is a part of the MSA due to the large number of commuters working in Albany, Schenectady, and Rensselaer counties, and not due to Saratoga Springs being a central city on par with the other three (and no, its not a central city according to the census bureau, which is the only government authority that makes the names and borders of MSA's). If Saratoga Springs ever does become a central city of the MSA then it would be the full name Saratoga Springs on the end of the MSA name, and not just Saratoa. Saratoga is the name of a separate town.

Schools
The St. Anne's Institute as a school for girls does not exist anymore. Can someone find information on when they discontinued the school and please remove it from the list of schools? The current institute is more of a rehabilitation center for children with problems and not a school, the website page that describes this is www.stanneinstitute.org/about/index.cfm 148.78.243.25 14:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Siena college really doesnt deserve to be in the list of schools, it is not and never has been located in the city of Albany, not to mention that it is NOT 2 miles north of downtown but actually more than 2 miles north of the city's northern border. PLUS, it is NOT in Loudonville, it does have a Loudonville address (but so does the Albany International Airport, but that's not in Loudonville either). Siena college is in Newtonville, Burton Ave is the northern "boundary" of Loudonville and where Newtonville begins, Newtonville ends where Latham begins near the Ted's Fish Fry a couple miles north, where Latham begins.  If Siena college used a PO BOX instead of a physical address then they would have use the Newtonville address. The Newtonville post office does PO Boxes only, not deliveries.  (The Newtonville post office by the way is pretty much across the street from Siena College as well)148.78.243.24 20:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The University at Albany's uptown campus is not the second largest poured concrete structure in the world, its an urban legend.
 * The website that is now citing that the University at Albany's uptown campus is the second largest poured concrete structure in the world (after the Pentagon) cites wikipedia as the source of it information. I'm sorry but that doesnt seem like this article can use them as a citation if they are citing this article...IF they had the information first, and I dont believe so, then that section in THIS article is a copy and paste job straight from there and even though its a government site I dont believe that it makes doing that ok by wikipedia rules...anyone have any ideas? I havent found a legitimate reference in any other site Camelbinky 01:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone objects I would like to remove the content that states that the University at Albany's uptown campus is the second largest poured concrete structure in the U.S. after the Pentagon (which would mean that both must be larger than the Hoover Dam, which the uptown campus most certainly is not!). As I stated almost 6 months ago, either the website that is cited in this article copied their info from here or this article copy and pasted it straight from that source. Regardless, it is completely untrue. Camelbinky (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Airport and CDTA
The CDTA does not manage the airport, it is managed by the Albany County Airport Authority, and owned by the county. The website for the airport itself verifies this. Please do not accuse me of vandalism for changing it to reflect this.24.182.142.254 20:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Should the following line be deleted? To me, it sounds like someone's sour grapes after they were pulled over for speeding: "Many State Troopers work on Interstate 87 (both the Thruway and the Northway) as well as Interstate 90 (east of the Thruway). Caution must be taken since they will pull over speeders. Some travelers feel that their efforts should be focused on curbing drug dealings, rapes, and murders in the area instead of harmless speeding. The State Police should work the local police on keeping the streets clear of drug dealers and preventing this once great city into turning into a slum." Kjscotte34 (talk) 17:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that bullet point definitely needed to go. I went ahead and removed it. —Krellis (Talk) 19:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

To do list
We have come far, but I still get sad everytime I see that it says that this is a former candidate for featured article and that its incomplete and we have a to-do list. Anyone willing to work on this with me? I figure we can use this section on the discussion page to keep in touch on who's found what and how to integrate it. I hope that we get lots of people involved and really make this a top-notch article.24.182.142.254 20:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

As a side note- if anyone wants to also join me in helping out the city of Rensselaer's article, no one has ever posted anything on their discussion site and the article is in desperate need of some love and hard work. Given their low population I can understand it being hard to find people willing to give the time and effort we have given to this article, so if anyone who edits this Albany article wants to give it a shot and help out I think we could help them out, my knowledge being limited about Rensselaer I just thought I'd try and pick up some smart people on this side of the river.Camelbinky 18:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Cultural References
I have found two movies that were filmed (according to IMDB) at the SUNY Albany campus (I would assume uptown?) Rollover (1981) starring Jane Fonda, and Zero Day directed by Ben Coccio. Does anyone know how much of the campus or city shows up? Are either worthy of being mentioned? Also I havent been able to find citation online for including the Time Machine even though I know it had parts filmed in Albany (parts of Center Square were closed for them to film), does anyone have a citation so we can enter it?Camelbinky 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Plagarism
Removed the following content: "* The American Institute of Architects named Albany as one of five communities in the country that will participate in a program that helps local leaders and residents plan for a sustainable future through affordable housing, green buildings, walkable neighborhoods and other efforts, the city announced Wednesday."... because it was copied verbatim, without attribution, from [|The Business Review (Albany)]. Anyone who wants to reintegrate the information should do so in a way that cites a source and reworks the phrasing so that it is no longer copy protected. - Cg-realms (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2008 (EST)

Civil Rights Movement
This is clearly vandalism and cites no references. Njhepler (talk) 20:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Railroad Station Picture??
Hey, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in having a picture of the Albany/Ren. railroad station on here instead of or side-by-side with (or whatever) the picture of the locomotive? I took a beautiful picture of the outside of the station and have a couple from inside too. It's a really great looking station. Let me know on my talk page if you'd like!MartinDuffy (talk) 17:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Empire State Plaza
The article states that the Plaza caused the removal of a large number of "Jewish, Italian, Black, and Latino inhabitants". Of those groups I can only find a "large" number of being affected (or even of being in the city of Albany at all at that period of time in any large numbers) Italians and Jews. Latinos and Blacks made up a very small percentage of the Albany populatino in the 1950's and it wasnt really until the 80's that African-Americans migrated to Albany in large numbers(this being a result of the policy of Mayor Erastus Corning 2nd). Does anyone have any citations from the census bureau on this area in Albany? And I would assume it being Albany that the largest population affected would have Catholic Irish. I also know for a fact that the South Mall Expressway was built on top of a French-Canadian neighborhood and along the Italian neighborhood surrounding Madison Ave. Camelbinky (talk) 01:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I put a citation needed template on the sentence about the forced removal of "Black, and Latino inhabitants". There just isnt any evidence that those groups were in that area in any significant numbers, even Arbor Hill and the South End, places that have African American majorities today did not have large Black populations in the 1950's, and even smaller Latino communities. Just because today we think of these projects as affecting these groups doesnt mean they always did. Please cite a legitimate reference or that part will be deleted.Camelbinky (talk) 04:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Port of Albany
I've noticed that there is no page for the port of albany-rensselaer. I've decided to take a stab at starting it. If anyone would like to help I'd love it! It seems like a really important article to be missing. Camelbinky (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've started an article on the port of albany-rensselaer, I hope anyone interested in the port takes a look at it and puts in more information to make it better, could especially use photos and info on tonnage of cargo over the years. I had wanted the title of port of albany, but that was already taken by the port of albany in western australia.Camelbinky (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Van-Unsselaens Island?
The first picture of Albany in the article is "Albany from Van-Unsselaens Island" and says its from 1846 (though I've found the original painting is from 1826). Does anyone have a clue where Van-Unsselaens Island is? Or I guess "was", seeing as how there is no island of that name anywhere near Albany. This is a terrible picture, I cant even make out that it really is of Albany, New York and not some other place, though what research I've been able to do seems to point it really is, though almost every website that has this picture got it from wikipedia (I can tell because ours is reversed and darker, the original has flipped right to left, it was recently auctioned so I'm assuming the website for the auction didnt have it flipped and the error is from whereever the wikipedian got it from). I hope to find a fair use old map or sketch of Albany, which shouldnt be too hard, seeing as how all maps and drawings that are 300+ years old cant be copyrighted. I'm thinking the Yates map is the most famous. I'll replace this terrible picture with it if no one objects. I cant see how the current image is instructive or helps.Camelbinky (talk) 07:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Separate history page
I suggest starting a new page for the history section and expanding it and then paring down the history section on this page, along with a new section giving a quick summary for the Neighborhoods of Albany, New York. I think this will give us a better page and allow a more in depth look at the history of Albany. The city is 400 years old in 2009 and to think the history section that is there now is complete is sad. Also- what is with the 4 different pics of the skyline? Do we need that many pics of basically the same thing just from taken from farther or closer? Arent there any other pics of individual buildings or old maps that can be used? Wikipedia guidelines allow for using other peoples photos of non-copyrighted antique maps, originality of expression is not recognized by the US gov't as a right to copyright photos of antique maps, postcards, or other expired copyrights or non-copyrighted materials and it is allowed to be posted wikipedia or the commons.Camelbinky (talk) 04:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to spin off the history section as a separate page, I hope I do it right. Anyone who wants to clean up the history section on this page, feel free to pare it down if there are things not that important and to add more important things, and feel free to add anything and everything to the new page for the History of Albany, New York so that it covers the entire history of the city and not just a summation like what should be on this page.Camelbinky (talk) 02:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Things needing cleanup!
Instead of making a new heading each time I find major errors I'll just start putting them in this heading!
 * Here is what this article says about Washington Park- "The Park was officially organized in 1809, but its current location has been used as a recreational site for well over 300 years.[13] Washington Park's current layout was designed in 1868 by Frederick Law Olmsted. It was opened for the public use in 1871."
 * How is this possible that the park was officially organized in 1809? The citation for that only says that it was used a recreational site for well over 300 years, which is true, but does not say that it was organized in 1809, and that's because it wasnt. Newspaper articles calling for a large general park in Albany didnt appear until 1859/60 and the Albany Institute prepared the first professional document on the effects and usefulness of such a park and gave it to the Common Council in 1863. Hardly any of this would have been necessary had the park been organized in 1809. The above information can all be found (without any reference to the year 1809)in an article on the history of the development of Washington Park written by William D. Morange which was incorporated into the minutes of the Board of Park Commissioners of Albany, New York on Nov. 18, 1871! Seems that the year 1809 shouldve been mentioned by Morange...Camelbinky (talk) 12:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This article needs a major cleanup, I dont have time right now, but instead of doing like I was planning and just spending my time doing a History of Albany, New York page I am going to do a complete and utter overhaul of this page. Needs citations EVERYWHERE, only about 24 citations for an article this long? Should be over 100. Sources subsection needs to go, if its used as a source, then whatever facts in the article from it should be referenced in citation. See also section needs to be cleared of any wikilinks that are already in the article itself. That section is for wikilinks not mentioned already. As the "To-do" infobox on this discussion page says a cityscape section needs to be created to combine multiple sections. Those are just some of the problems I'll be addressing. I hope others will be motivated to work on this overhaul as well.Camelbinky (talk) 03:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

In just a week or so the number of citations has almost doubled! Thanks to everyone who were adding citation need templates and adding citations themselves! Yah! I'll continue to add citations too, and hope while some of us continue doing that, others will look into finding more information to go into the history section. There is a 90 year gap and a 130 year gap that I noticed right away. Nothing happened for that long of a time? The longest gap for a city like Albany I would think should be 25-30 years, even less for more recent times. Dont worry about lenght of the article, once the history section gets too long we'll spin it off to its own page.Camelbinky (talk) 08:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

In popular culture section= trivia
UpstateNYer correctly pointed out that the "In popular culture" section is just a list of trivia, which is frowned upon. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas of incorporating it into the article better? I think Albany is represented in TV, movies, and other media more than its size would expect it to be (obviously our proximity to NYC where alot of writers, producers, actors, etc live and work is why). I personally cant think of what to do about this, but hopefully we get lots of suggestions.Camelbinky (talk) 06:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Crimes & Gangs Section
I will go ahead and assume that the continual re-instating of the section "Crimes and Gangs" is in good-faith and not vandalism. It has been put in and removed several times this month, and to head off a possible edit war I would like to encourage those who keep putting the section back in to find legitimate references. The facts in the paragraph, while not completely written in a NPOV way, are at their core factually correct and it would not be hard to go ahead and google to find articles (or whatever search engine like yahoo or ask.com or whatever you prefer). The Times Union and Metroland are two other good places to do an online search of their archives. Jack McEneny's "Albany: Capital City on the Hudson" also is a source that mentions the Orange Street Boys and their beginnings should someone wish to incorporate early gang history in. The information in the article is not being removed because any editors have a personal view against information about gangs. It is being removed due to it being unreferenced material that presents itself as dubious. Please do not return the section to the article until referenced sources are inserted with it. Thanks!Camelbinky (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Green Mountains?
According to this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NortheastAppalachiansMap.jpg), Albany is not bordered by the Green Mountains but rather the Taconics. The article presently states that Albany is bordered by the Adirondacks, Catskills, and Green Mountains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.40.13 (talk) 17:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, I thought I had removed that a year ago. I'll go ahead and change that AGAIN. The Green Mountains are in Vermont and most definitely dont border Albany, and in fact neither do the others. If someone disagrees and wants to put it back, please source it. This article is about Albany the city, not the Albany metro area- the Capital District.

Grammar
Should "a historic" be "an historic"? I really am not 100% sure, but I would imagine someone else is. Sorry to be so nitpicky... —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeDufort (talk • contribs)


 * Not in American English. I had this same question and according to an user who is no longer editing Crystalwacker, who did the GA review for Port of Albany-Rensselaer it is a, not an and I tend to agree as the rule as I know it is "a" except before a vowel, if befor a vowel then it is "an". At least in the majority of the CD we speak the Southwestern New England dialect (around Saratoga Springs and north is in the Northwestern NE dialect and therefore may be slightly different) and "historic" has a clear h sound. I'm sure there's lots of different classifications on dialects and where the transition zones are, but anyways, I made this article conform to Crystalwacker's suggestion since I respected her hard work in showing me what needed to be done before she could pass my port article (and I consider it to be "mine" only because about I started the article and 90% of the content is what I put in; it is not an ownership statement).Camelbinky (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a justification for "a historic" from a Washington Post copy editor --Albany NY (talk) 00:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Main photo
The main photo has been changed back and forth a couple times over a long period so I wouldnt call it an edit war since it is a longer time period between changes. However I do believe it warrants being discussed here first before being changed again. My personal opinion is that the original photo was good and should be the main photo or updated to better quality. It is a photo that is more representative of downtown and is, with some differences between photos copied elsewhere on the Internet (photographers rarely hold their cameras in the exact same place as each other). The newer photo with the Capitol and Egg include buildings NOT in Downtown such as the Egg and the Capitol (outsiders dont realize those buildings are not a part of Downtown and may get the wrong impression due to the caption). The original photo was in my opinion brighter, included the Pepsi Arena, the Maiden Lane pedestrian bridge, the Corning Preserve and more of the Hudson River and I-787. Buildings such as the D&H and DEC are more recognizable in the original. The newer photo has the Capitol building overwhelming everything else, while the Capitol is important it isnt in my opinion what ALBANY is, a photo of downtown should focus more on the buildings built by Albany and its people/businesses (Pepsi Arena by the county, D&H by a private corporation, and with the exeption of the new Comptroller's building all the State Street buildings/skyscrapers were built by private enterprises). So it boils down to which we want to focus on- State Street or the Capitol. I suggest we keep Upstater's latest photo until a consensus is found. I've put forth my opinions, I think we should have opinions stated instead of an argument over who is right or wrong. Let opinions sway each other instead of arguments.Camelbinky (talk) 02:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey children! Quit it with changing the main photo back and forth! Talk here or on your discussion pages, I dont care how you resolve it but resolve it without a minor edit war and name calling, Upstater is not a "photo spammer" or whatever the anon user said. This needs to stop.Camelbinky (talk) 01:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that a photo of the Albany skyline that includes the Empire State Plaza and other notable buildings (perhaps viewed from across the river) would be a significant improvement over the current picture (from the Corning Tower, looking down), which does not give a good sense of the urban landscape. Indeed, the main picture has often been like this in the past. Here are three examples: .  --Albany NY (talk) 02:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Anon here, I believe the original photo offers a better angle showing height and depth of the downtown area, and I wholeheartedly agree with camelbinky about focus on the city and not the state offices. A photo from across the river would be dominated by the ESP which sits at a higher elevation, overshadowing downtown Albany.  The view from the river should be included elsewhere on the page in high quality.  Sorry for the name calling but I looked in to it and noticed the user has taken to replacing a lot of main photos.

I guess it doesn't really matter to me. I thought mine was better because it's at a wider angle and juxtaposes the Plaza with the rest of the city. It contains about 90% of what's in the original. It also includes Arbor Hill and southern parts of Menands. It also shows the local topography better; you can see the beginning of the Berkshires on the horizon. These, plus the Helderbergs are precisely what you see when you look at the horizon from Albany. Either way, I'm definitely not spamming, just trying to help the article.  upstate NYer  16:56, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm glad we've got a discussion going. Talking is healthy. First off- I agree with Albany NY that a view of the city from the other side of the river should be the best photo to use for the main photo. I understand the anon's view on the photo not being dominated by state offices, it is a point of view I share regarding a photo of downtown from the Corning Tower, but not a POV I share regarding a skyline photo of Albany. A skyline photo is my prefered photo if Upstater has a really good one he would like to put in as a compromise, if all agree on this being a good compromise. Regarding Upstater putting in new photos I think he does an excellent superb job at first getting the photos and then finding good places to put them and have never seen any bad faith or "spamming" on his part, this was all in good faith and we can disagree with those we respect and call friend. With that I do disagree with Upstater on his photo for the same reasons he thinks the photo was an improvement- Menands and the Berkshires arent in Albany and with this being an article strictly on the city of Albany and not on the metro area (ie- Capital District) I didnt see this as being a good main photo. With Albany NY's comment I see now that a skyline image from across the river would be more inline with representing Albany, which the city and various booster groups have consistently used the outline of the skyline to represent Albany and a skyline photo seems to be the norm in alot of city articles, I'll have to look it up but not too long ago (within the last 5 years I assume) Albany ranked pretty high given its population on a ranking of cities across the entire world on something along the lines of "most beautiful skyline", so perhaps that should be a good reason to put it in as the main photo, and I'll have that reference ready for the article within a couple days, I'm actually on vacation right now. Anyways- I hope this compromise suits everyone, because if an alternative solution compromise isnt implemented soon I'll implement this one anyways because I always believe that a compromise in which no one is happy and no one gets what they want is the best compromise (except for a compromise that gives me everything I want).Camelbinky (talk) 02:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Replaced skyline image and lowered Corning Tower image, the skyline image can be improved by taking a photo from the river or maybe Dunn Bridge for an obscured photo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.204.170 (talk)
 * I actually was thinking more along the lines of "skyline" as in the state museum, the cathedral, the South Mall, the Capitol, and the Al Smith Building... but unless Albany NY and Upstater agree with me that the definition of skyline I just gave is better than the current river-level photo I'll just drop my objection now that my clarification of what I had proposed has been stated for "the record". I hope this has been a productive compromise and I hope the IP user will sign up and join the Capital District wikiproject and continue to work on this article. Hope no hard feelings. Camelbinky (talk) 22:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be OK with any skyline photo so long as it actually is a skyline, meaning that it shows Albany's unique buildings silhouetted against the sky. --Albany NY (talk) 03:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By that definition I suppose the current photo meets your criteria, am I correct?Camelbinky (talk) 15:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure! Of course, if we have a better one, I would support using that. --Albany NY (talk) 01:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess we have consensus then- the skyline photo stays until a better skyline is found. If someone could get a photo similar to the banner photo on here either at nighttime like that photo or a daytime version I think it would be more representative of the city at large. That particular photo I am using as an example may be difficult to replicate though. But that is just one of many options and something for the future to think about.Camelbinky (talk) 22:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like it was taken from somewhere in the 9 and 20 area maybe UAlbany east campus or closer. A photo like that in daytime would be perfect.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.204.170 (talk) 00:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Article size
I really think the tag for "too long" shouldn't be on this article. It's an important article about a major city and a state capitol. If anything, there is content missing, as the article is rated only "B" class. Large and important cities should necessarily have longer, more detailed articles than less important subjects. Albany's article is not egregiously long for a city of its size and importance--see the articles about New Haven, Connecticut, Providence, Rhode Island and Richmond, Virginia for comparison. A highly viewed article such as Catholic church is more than twice as long and can still be navigated. --AFriedman (talk) 07:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC


 * I don't think the tag causes any problems - it only says the article "may be too long to comfortably read...Please consider..." According to WP:SIZE, with an article of this size we should certainly consider summarising some of the sections and splitting them out into separate articles. --hippo43 (talk) 07:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the visibility of the tag may make people uncomfortable with adding information that is needed, especially since there aren't that many links to smaller articles. Perhaps only people who edit the page should see page size, as is in the article for Richmond, Virginia.  --AFriedman (talk) 19:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It is of similar size or smaller than Hartford, Connecticut, Providence, Rhode Island, Syracuse, New York, Buffalo, New York, and considerably smaller than Boston and New York City. It is of typical size for a city article and if someone did the suggestion at wp:article size and still thinks its too long then they did it wrong and didnt understand. The article size convention, as the wp page states, was originally intended when server space at Wikipedia wasnt that large and internet connections at people's homes were slower. The page is not a problem. I am removing the tag AGAIN. Policy is on my side here.Camelbinky (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:article size says about the size of "readable prose" that- "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 30 to 50 KB, which roughly corresponds to 6,000 to 10,000 words of readable prose. If an article is significantly longer than that, it may benefit the reader to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries". I have done the steps that the footnote at the bottom of the page tell you to do to find the readable prose (take the printable version, copy/paste it to an edit window and delete ToC, lists, footnotes, etc etc, and show preview to see the size. It comes out to 46 kb, which is within the 30-50 range and is not significantly longer than that which is when it recommends splitting would benefit the reader. Policy is clear it is a judgement call, and Afriedman and I are well within our rights under policy to say the template is without merit given policy and the numerous articles of similar size. This article is nowhere near being finished, more and more and more information should be stuck in and as we, who actually work on this article, feel a section is generally done and as being done it is too big we'll spin off sections; when I am done with the History of Albany, New York article then we can par down this history section on this article, their are several sections that arent in good prose form, as those get put into paragraph sections and actual prose instead of list-like one-line sentences then the size of the article will improve, as citation needed and cleanup templates are rectified and removed the size will decrease as well. Adding templates is a self-fullfilling prophesy making the article longer, which is why the wp:article size page tells you it is about readable prose size, not size of the article as put on the edit screen (which it makes clear is a hold over from when browsers were slow), the size given on the edit screen is one that includes templates, photos, infoboxes, etc that are not to be counted as readable prose and true article size. I have laid out, using policy, why this size template is not to be put on this article.Camelbinky (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * AFriedman, I think if the tag discourages editors from adding much more material before removing some of what is already here, then it is serving its purpose. As Camelbinky points out, spinning out sections like History will benefit the article.


 * Camelbinky, the amount of readable prose is 8000+ words, or 46k as you say, so near the upper limit of what is comfortable to read. The wording of the tag, and the Readability section of the guideline (not policy) WP:SIZE only concern the length of the article and readability. The outdated technical limits on articles are irrelevant.


 * The lower limits of that readability advice say "readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about..6,000..words of readable prose", therefore a tag advising editors that the article "may be too long to read and navigate comfortably. Please consider splitting content into sub-articles and using this article for a summary of the key points of the subject" seems totally appropriate. As you've said, you are working toward spinning out some of the material which will be beneficial.


 * Albany is smaller than all the cities you listed, so it's understandable that the article would be shorter. Some of the prose currently in the article would also benefit from being copy-edited, which would likewise reduce the size, which will help if more material is added. As the tag gives editors appropriate advide for this article, Skittleys, who added the tag, and myself are supported by the guidelines in keeping it. I don't see any negatives to having the tag here, so I'll put it back. --hippo43 (talk) 00:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do not put the tag back again, I am removing it per discussion at the WP:Village pump (policy) regarding article size and one editor (not me) specifically stating that Albany is 26kb and does not need it, and per the other editor's comments of what wp:article size's intentions are. Hippo you are trying to do another disruption, please stop.Camelbinky (talk) 00:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) Having only skimmed this argument (which is a bit of a waste of time, in all honesty), I don't see a need for the tag. Spin-off and copyediting, yes, but the length is still reasonable. History is a bit long and can probably be consolidated (since there is a separate article). Regarding the other cities being larger than Albany, that doesn't set article length. Small cities don't get respectively small articles; the upper limit is the upper limit. It just means that a smaller city has the opportunity to get into more detail, which offers the small locality the ability to get even more local and expose more of its charm. I agree with removing the tag.  upstate NYer  00:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Upstate, the point I'm making is that it actually, per the wording on wp:article size, not at the upper limit. The upper limit is not what the tag at the top of the edit page says about 32kb, if you read the policy (or guideline or whatever wp:article size is) states very clearly the steps to figure out for readable prose and how it differs from actual size of the article in an edit window with all the wikimarkup and such included. Per one editor at the Village Pump the actual readable prose of the article is 26 which puts it half of what the "upper limit" is, and my own rudimentary figure was higher, but still below the 50kb.Camelbinky (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, I just read that. Even so, this still comes down to WP:COMMONSENSE. It's not worth fighting about; there's clear consensus; everybody back to work.  upstate NYer  00:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Camelbinky, I've no idea if 26k is correct, or the 46k you counted - it doesn't matter. As you pointed out, the size in kb is less important than the number of words for readability - there is no longer any reason to limit article size for tech reasons. The article is over 8000 words, so is in the range where WP:SIZE says readability is affected. According to the guideline, readers may find 6000+ words difficult, therefore the tag is appropriate advice for editors considering adding to the article. It establishes that the article would benefit more from reduction than expansion. The discussion at WP:VPP is in no way authoritative, so referring to one user's opinion there does not somehow end the discussion. Please don't assume I'm being disruptive any time I disagree with you. --hippo43 (talk) 00:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is that you arent just disagreeing with ME you are disagreeing with three editors on this talk page and two on the village pump! Give it up! Stop being disruptive!Camelbinky (talk) 00:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm AGF that you aren't trying to be disruptive, but you are going against consensus here. After a quick scan, I'm not seeing the 6000 word reference, but WP:SIZERULE (part of WP:SIZE) is definitely not on your side.  upstate NYer  01:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sheesh, this keeps popping up on my watchlist. So what's the situation, article length? This is only 80kb long. It's not about how many words there are or the length of the scroll button. It's about wikification and how easy it is for readers to comprehend it. 80kb is small compared to many FAs (see for example, Barack Obama). It flows down the article quite smoothly so a size tag is not necessary. Plus, I'd take a look further into the guideline page. Hippo mentioned some bogus statements regarding it.  Zoo Fari  01:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Zoofari, I don't think I referred to WP:SMALL at all. If you think I "mentioned some bogus statements regarding it", please point these out, or apologise for that claim. --hippo43 (talk) 15:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Especially with browsers becoming faster, I don't think most people who read Wikipedia are turned off by long articles' size. If they are, that's what article introductions and subsections are for.  If I really don't feel like reading a long article, I'll just go to the summary.  However, if there's a way to improve the article that also happens to reduce its size, great.  Hippo, which parts of the article do you think should be eliminated or made more concise?  --AFriedman (talk) 02:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The article seems fine size-wise and is well-organized and easily navigated via section titles and TOC. So I don't think it needs to be reduced.  I most definitely oppose the re-addition of the "too-long" tag to the article which is a negative tag detracting from the article, so add my "vote" to any tallies of the apparent consensus here.  Hippo43 has made his point here on the talk page, communicating to the actual editors of the article his view that the article may be too long.  Thank you Hippo43 for sharing that view.  It has been shared.  Now, please, no more addition of tag which only detracts from the article for readers and which also seems to be one item playing into inter-personal conflict, per current discussion about Hippo43 and Camelbinky at wp:ANI. doncram (talk) 18:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Real Facts Real History
Why did you choose to eliminate all the academic scholarship and facts, and all the useful external links that once existed on this page? It seems so generic now; really sad.... Albany is much more.


 * To the unsigned IP question above- HUH? If you read this please elaborate on what used to be on this page and maybe I or someone else would be able to help you and figure out on a useful way to have the information you seek put back on the page. User:Wknight94 I believe has worked on this article longer than most others, at least I believe he's been around this page longer than me; he may be able to shed some light, once we know specifically what you are talking about.Camelbinky (talk) 00:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This article omits the fact that Albany is a blighted dump, I will add a section on this soon
I just visited Albany for the first time to see the Empire State Plaza and was very impressed. But I was also horrified when I realized that the rest of the city is a severely blighted dump comparable to Camden, New Jersey or Detroit. I noticed that this article omits this important fact (which has been covered by the Albany Times-Union, see this story) and will add a section on this soon. --Coolcaesar (talk) 23:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Having never been to Detroit, but having seen the blight there in movies and on TV (assuming it's truly Detroit), I would disagree that the blight is all that bad. In fact, I went out looking for blight to mention on Clinton Avenue Historic District, which is about a slum-like as you get in Albany (ties with Arbor Hill, really). And it was actually not bad. That said, I agree that if the TU had an article on it, we'll mention it. A rewrite of the article is currently ongoing at User:UpstateNYer/Albany, New York Rewrite.  upstate NYer  15:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course certain sections are a dump around here. Having been here and working in Albany for over thirteen years, I would agree.  But Albany itself is not.  Some of the "dump" areas, like around Albany Med have been cleaning up quite a bit.  The city, and private businesses have been transforming that area from a ghetto into a retail area and it's starting to look nice.  If it's going to be mentioned in the article, do it with care. Kjscotte34 (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Well put. A fair way to represent it would be "some neighborhoods (such as...) are victims are urban blight, however other neighborhoods (such as...) are currently recovering from such symptoms" or something like that.  upstate NYer  22:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite is currently ongoing at Talk:Albany, New York/Rewrite
Just an FYI for anyone that is interested.  upstate NYer  15:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have any questions, please let me know by either commenting here or at my talk page.  upstate NYer  21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See below for more information.  upstate NYer  06:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite is still ongoing, but at this page
The links mentioned above are no longer valid. The rewrite is about 75% done, but is no longer at the rewrite page. All edits should now be made to this article.  upstate NYer  06:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)