Talk:Albert Ball/Archive 1

Request for Verification
Does anyone know what the anonymous user felt needed to be verified? Cjrother 20:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know. I have removed the tag. The article seems fine to me as far as referencing goes. It seems consistent with his article in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article. Capitalistroadster 06:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Ball's Death
I thought Albert Ball was killed by machine gunners placed in a clock tower which he frequently flew by to check the time when coming back from a dogfight.--Geedubber 11:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * There are many versions with regards to Ball's death. One is the machine gun story as you mentioned. An other is that Ball and Richthofen did indeed face eachother in Ball's final fight. Both planes went down after the dogfight, Ball died, Richthofen survived. Although Germany officially credited Lothar von Richthofen with downing Ball, there was little or no evidence to substantiate the claim.
 * Moments before Ball's plane crashed, a Leutnant Hailer, a German officer on the ground, witnessed Ball's undamaged aircraft emerge alone from the clouds, 200 feet above the ground in an inverted position with a dead prop. So most likely Ball encountered engine failure and simply crashed killing him. Nonentheless the Germans officially credited Lothar with Ball's killing so it should be mentioned but perhaps with a proviso as to the doubts.
 * Given the eye witness account, I personally, subscribe to the latter version - Ball engaged a German plane, got lost in the clouds and got disoriented, probably stalled and encountered engine trouble and then crashed... Why don't I subscribe to the machine gun theory? According to several sources, neither Ball's bodily remains nor the plane did show "battle damage" (in other words; bullet holes)... As to the identity of the German pilot... he was from Richthofen's flying circus... that's for sure but wether it was really Lothar is an other matter as some say that Lothar was recovering from battle wounds at the time of Ball's death and was thus inactive. --fdewaele 10 January 2006, 21:30 CET
 * okay thanks --Geedubber 20:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The clock tower story seems to stem from Arch Whitehouse, who never minded tweaking reality in pursuit of drama. His "factual" books are some great young lads' fiction.

Consider this. Ball was a trained engineer, renowned for his perfectionism. He even had a holster custom-built in his cockpit for his pistol. And yet he doesn't carry a watch, even though he is expected to fill out a combat report complete with the time of significant events? Was he going to find a handy clock tower after every combat?

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Picture caption error
The aircraft behind ball in the photo captioned "... in front of his Nieuport 11" is not a Nieuport 11. The interplane struts on the Nieuport were V-shaped, not parallel as shown in the photo. The aircraft in the photo is also not any of the other types mentioned in the article as having been flown operationally by Ball, but I am not sure what it is. My best guess is a Caudron G.III. --August H.


 * I'm a bit dubious about that Caudron G.III identification. I've got a small pic in Encyclopedia of World Aircraft (edited by David Donald, Prospero Books, 1997) that shows a lateral strut from the interplane strut to the fuselage; it's not visible in the photo here, & should be. The one that is visible here runs the opposite direction, & isn't in EOWA's. Anybody got better pix? Or info that puts Ball in a G.III? Trekphiler 15:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a Caudron G.III - probably at a training unit. Soundofmusicals 04:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ball trained on Caudrons at the Ruffy-Bauman flying school. (See Albert Ball VC, page 31.) Georgejdorner (talk) 04:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

A-Class-review
I have removed the A-Class=current from the duplicate template on this page. If you wish to initiate an A-Class review please read the A-Class review instructions. There is no need to duplicate the whole template, adding A-Class=current to the existing template will work. Please also see the MILHIST Academy page on how to write an A-Class article. Giving a quick review myself, the sentences seem to be very stubby. I would try to merge the sentences into paragraphs. If you have any questions, you can leave them on my talkpage. Regards, Woody (talk) 22:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

After going through the article I have a question:


 * "It was no surprise then, that upon his graduation at the age of 17, his father staked him to a start in business as Universal Engineering Works in a building next door to the house of his birth." What do you mean by this? Did he start at Universal Engineering Works at the request of his father? Thanks, Woody (talk) 13:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Quotations
I have moved the quotations from the article to here as they need to be referenced to a reliable source. Once they are sourced they can be integrated into the text or duplicated over to wikiquote if needs be. Regards, Woody (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Won't it be nice when all this beastly killing is over, and we can enjoy ourselves and not hurt anyone. I hate this game!

"Albert Ball, VC", page 191. Delete "I hate this game!"

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/ball.php includes "I hate this game..."

No source for the second exclamation point. Georgejdorner (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The S.E.5 has turned out a dud. It's a great shame, for everybody expects such a lot from them. It is a rotten machine.

http://albertball.homestead.com/Recollections.html

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/militaryaircraft/p/se5.htm

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/ball.php

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (He later came to appreciate the qualities of the S.E.5 - scoring 11 victories in it.)

I do not think anything bad about the German. He is just a poor chap with very little guts, trying to do his best. Nothing makes me feel more rotten than to see them go down.

"Albert Ball, VC", page 78.

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

...He (Captain. Maybery) and Captain. Ball and Lieutenant. Rhys Davids did more harm to the morale of the German Flying Corps than any other fifteen pilots between them. They all, always, took on any odds. They were too brave and reckless.


 * (Captain Duncan Grinnell-Milne, Commanding officer of 56th squadron RFC, on hearing news of the death of Captain Richard Maybery.)

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/rhysdavids.htm

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

"Trailing only Red Baron" at time of his death?
Someone deleted this - I think it may very well be true, and have reinstated it. But has anyone had a look at what other ace's scores were in May 1917 ?? - most would have been well under their final tallies, of course. I'm sure Udet hadn't already shot down more than 40 EA at this time, for instance.

The main reservation I would have is the futility of comparing "scores" - without maligning Ball, or doubting his probity for one moment, the German and British scoring systems were so different. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 09:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have checked this particular factoid, and it is true. And, yes, given the uncertainties of verifying ANY aerial victories by anyone in any war, it is essentially meaningless, flashy and 'peacockish'.

Georgejdorner (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Whoops, correction. Guynemer scored his 45th victory on 5 June 1917, two days before Ball's death. Therefore, Ball's tally of 44 was second to Guynemer at the time of Ball's death.

Georgejdorner (talk) 05:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorted now in lead -- tks George! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Family details and blue plaque
Noting here some family details that might be warranted in the article, but maybe not. It does provide more context though. The brother's name was Cyril. The sister's name was Lois (her married name was Anderson). The memorial at the church names another sister called Hilda, who died in infancy. The mother (Harriet or Harriett) died in 1931. The father (Albert) was born in 1863 and died in 1946. He was Lord Mayor of Nottingham twice, once in 1909/10 once in 1935/36, and he was knighted in 1924. His obituary was published in The Times, which is the source for the information heren (though that is a wiki, so the page linked to may change). Also, following up on the Lenton Listener mention of a blue plaque, I looked and it seems one wasn't erected there back in the 1980s (at least I found no mention of it), but one was erected recently (May 2011) in Grantham where he went to school (though it was one of several schools he attended). That doesn't seem to be an official blue plaque, but a local scheme, so I'm only noting it here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Auction of letter
Found this news item from 2005 about the auction of a letter. It is something I would add to the article, but I'm not sure how rare this is. If this is something that doesn't happen often, then I would add it, but wanted to check here first. Carcharoth (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Date of VC investiture
I'm reading The Court Circular from The Times for Monday, Jul 23, 1917; pg. 9; Issue 41537; col B, and this states that Ball's parents were presented with his VC during an investiture held by the King in the forecourt of Buckingham Palace on 21 July 1917. Two points: There were many other VCs presented that day (21 July) as well, and probably none the next day, so unless there is some explanation for all this, I think a mistake has been made here somewhere. Carcharoth (talk) 19:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * (1) This date contradicts the date of 22 July 1917 given elsewhere. Which source is more reliable?
 * (2) There is this picture on the picture the past website, which gives the location as Nottingham and the date as June. I suspect that this is totally wrong, but trying to check that is what led me to the article in The Times.

Cost of the Memorial Homes
Not sure what to do with this reference (from Flight & the Aircraft Engineer, Volume 10, Part 2, 1918) to the Memorial Homes being intended to cost £10,000. It is a bit useless at the moment, because it is only an estimate, and what is really needed is a figure for how much they actually cost, but I thought it might be worth putting here in case anyone wanted to follow that up. Carcharoth (talk) 19:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I spoke too soon. I found the article in The Times, Friday, Sep 08, 1922; pg. 7; Issue 43131; col F. The bits of interest are that they were opened "yesterday" (i.e. agrees with 7 September date in other sources) by "Lieutenant Colonel Leslie Wilson, M.P." and that a message was read out from the King: "'It is fitting that the homes should bear the name of one destined to live pre-eminent among the sons of Nottingham, who, in the Great War, as in the days of Charles I, gave their all for King and country.'" More to the point of what I said above, the article says that "The capital value of the gift exceeds £20,000". So that answers the question I had. Is it worth putting that in this article? Carcharoth (talk) 19:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Memorial unveiling
If another reliable source is needed for the details of the memorial unveiling, it was briefly (26 lines) covered in The Times, Friday, Sep 09, 1921; pg. 11; Issue 42821; col C. The squadron of airplanes flying overhead is also mentioned, as is the fact that the unveiling was by Sir Hugh Trenchard. There are additional details, such as the parents laying a tribute of blue and white flowers in shape of a propeller, but the local newspaper reports likely had more on this. There was, for example, an article in the Nottingham Guardian, 'Homage to V.C. Airman: The Ball Memorial Unveiled', 20430, 9 September 1921, p.6. Carcharoth (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Stained glass window and coat-of-arms
There is a puzzle that distracted me for a while, concerning a stained glass window. Not the Ball window in the Holy Trinity Church (that was an earlier generation), but the stained glass window(s) that Ball's father is said to have commissioned in the grand house he had built in Wollaton Park. This is described here, where the claim is that "Sir Albert commissioned a stained glass window to commemorate young Albert". I tried to find pictures, with some on property websites, but the closest I got was a picture with the motto "Sublime Petimus". When I plugged this into a search engine, I got a hit in Armorial Families, which contains descriptions of coats-of-arms. That includes: "BALL of Nottingham (H. Coll., 27 June 1924). Argent, a lion rampant sable, holding in the dexter forepaw a fireball proper between two roses gules, barbed and seeded also proper, on a chief of the second a representation of the badge of the R.F.C. or. Mantling sable and argent. Crest — On a wreath of the colours, in front of a dexter cubit arm grasping in the hand a fireball proper, two roses as in the arms. Motto — ' Sublime petimus.'" It seems that the father had a coat-of-arms drawn up for his family in 1924 that included some representation of the RFC? If this can be pinned down in a reliable source, it would be good, but the above is as far as I was able to go. I don't think it is enough at the moment, as I'm wary that estate agents trying to sell that property may have talked this up. Anyway, maybe there are sources out there that can shed some light on this. FWIW, 'sublime petimus' translates approximately as 'We seek what is on high' and seems closely related to the motto of the RFC college (later RAF cadet college): Superna Petimus (Latin: We seek higher things). An example of the latter is here (about an Royal Air Force Cadet College medal from the 1920s). Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

How about more info about his life?
Greetings, all,

With all due respect to a fallen hero, how about adding some more about his life, rather than just his afterlife?

Georgejdorner (talk) 23:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The amount added recently is actually not that much. Do a word count of what has changed recently. Turning from the question of how much has been added recently, to the question of overall balance, the lead section is currently 347 words, and of those only one sentence (the last) of 19 words is about events after Ball's death. In the main body of the article (leaving out the table at the end and the citations), you have 224 words on his early life, 3021 about World War I, 732 about the Victoria Cross and his legacy (if you exclude the VC citation). The five medal citations take up another 546 words. If that balance isn't right, what do you think the right balance should be? I would certainly favour adding more details of his life. He met Billy Bishop, I think. It would also be nice to include a few quotes from his letters home. Carcharoth (talk) 00:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * To George, I have added a couple of extra tidbits for his life and have some more to add. A few days ago I found a choice piece in a book describing him as having the perfect makeup for a killer in wartime given his 'proper' upbringing and lack of maturity, which contrasts nicely with a bit in Bowyer about how calling him a killer would be unfair, because of his continued remorse over sending his opponents to their deaths. So I'm aiming to put the one after the other in the appropriate spot (possible after the "lone wolf" bit).
 * To Carcharoth, we already have number of quotes from his letters, though there are one or two more we can add. I think the lead had the appropriate balance with the amount in the legacy section at the start of this review, given the add'l info now I might expand the lead a bit, but let's complete the additions/mods to the main body first. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still looking around in various places, and I still have a list from the earlier stuff which I never finished. If I don't get round to that this week, I'll try and consolidate my notes here for future reference (for you, George and others). For now, I've completed looking at other articles on Wikipedia where Ball is mentioned or linked from, to see if anything obvious has been missed. What I found was the following: Ernest Foot (article claims Ball was his best friend); Bulwell (article lays claim to Ball for Bulwell, though I'm not sure how accurate that is); Red Baron (video game) (this is trivia/popular culture, though now quite an old computer game, from 1990); and three articles make claims related to memorials to Ball: Albert Toft, Arthur Brewill, Basil Baily. None of that is particularly needed (and not seen Toft mentioned before anywhere), but others might make more of these links (or be able to correct those articles if they are wrong). Carcharoth (talk) 02:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Family details
There are some elements of the Ball family that if presented might help provide more context. Not too much, but I think some of the following is relevant: Clearly not all the above is needed for context, but I think some of it would help, even if only in a short couple of sentences or two at the bottom of the article in a set of notes. Carcharoth (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Various sources say her younger son's death greatly affected his mother (saying she didn't attend the memorial service and didn't speak about his death). She also died in 1931 and her husband later remarried. In passing, she is often referred to in source as Mary Page, though the memorial at the church refers to her as Harriett (with a double t).
 * His sister, Lois, married a year later (and became Anderson), the details were given in an aviation magazine. "'Miss Lois Ball, daughter of Alderman and Mrs. A. Ball. The Park, Nottingham, sister of the late Captain Albert Ball, VC, and of Lieutenant Cyril Ball, also the RFC, now a prisoner of war in Germany, was married in Nottingham on March 2nd [1918] to Lieutenant G. Stafford Anderson, Leicestershire Regiment.' - Flight International, Volume 10 (1919), Issue 1, page 264" The thing that relates this back to Ball is that the bridesmaids were his fiancee (Flora Young) and his brother Cyril's fiancee (Miss Marie Price).
 * Ball's elder brother Cyril (as described above) was also an aviator (did he become one before Albert?), and was shot down in February 1918 and ended up a prisoner-of-war and returned after the war. Not sure whether he was initially reported missing or not, but that must have been terrible for the family and a great relief to learn he was alive (though mention of when Albert was reported missing and when the family were told of the death is not currently present in the article). Cyril is shown in uniform in pictures of the memorial service procession. There is more on him at the bottom of this page. I also came across a reference in a NYT article about Cyril being put on display in a cage in Germany, see here and here. There are also references in recent news stories (June 2011) to a daughter Cyril had, who has memories of visiting her grandfather (Sir Albert) in the 1930s.
 * Ball's father was very wealthy (and became more so). I'm not sure the article makes that clear enough. He was a director of Austin, and had money to buy lots of land at various points (including the land he built a large house on in around 1926). His obituary was published in The Times and the amount left in his will is also mentioned in The Times and was over £110,000 which was a vast sum in 1946.
 * Tks, was already planning to add the bit about his mother not attending the funeral service, etc. Her full name was Harriett (yes, a double "t", thank you!) Mary Page so will tweak in the article to cover all bases. The bit about his brother is also of interest, will see about that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * FWIW, a stained glass memorial window was erected to Lady Ball when she died (that church contains memorial windows to both Sir Albert's mother and his wife). I came across this detail in an updated version of the 1930 work on that Lenton parish church: here. That may or may not be a better source than the 1930 source currently in the article. It does use the 'Harriett' double-t spelling. Carcharoth (talk) 23:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Contemporary newspaper reports
While I have the database open, I might as well list all the articles from The Times that were found between the beginning of 1917 (there will, of course, be articles before this date as well) and the end of 1930, for the search term "albert ball". I'm only listing those articles where Ball appears in the title (i.e. mentions in 'news in brief' and other columns are not picked up). This is only to give a rough idea of what is there. And secondary sources should still be preferred to contemporary newspaper reports, but I think the above will still be useful. The Letter to the Editor is Ball's father, writing in his capacity as Mayor of Nottingham (a different post to that of Lord Mayor?) pleading that ex-servicemen be given priority for jobs. Carcharoth (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Captain A. Ball's Fate. Fight With Three Enemy Airmen., A Striking Series Of Victories (The Times Friday, May 18, 1917; pg. 5; Issue 41481; col C)
 * Captain Ball's Death Announced. Famous Airman Buried Near Lille. (The Times Monday, Jun 04, 1917; pg. 8; Issue 41495; col F)
 * The Victoria Cross. 29 Officers And Men Decorated., Captain Ball, V.C., D.S.O., M.C. (The Times Saturday, Jun 09, 1917; pg. 4; Issue 41500; col A)
 * Hostel For The Maimed. A Memorial To Captain Ball. (The Times Thursday, Jul 05, 1917; pg. 8; Issue 41522; col E)
 * Letters to the Editor (Albert Ball). (The Times Tuesday, Sep 07, 1920; pg. 13; Issue 42509; col D )
 * The Memorial To Captain Ball, V.C. (Picture Gallery) (The Times Wednesday, Sep 07, 1921; pg. 5; Issue 42819; col C )
 * Captain Ball. V.C. Memorial Unveiled At Nottingham. (The Times Friday, Sep 09, 1921; pg. 11; Issue 42821; col C )
 * A Memorial To Captain Albert Ball, V.C. The King's Message. (The Times Friday, Sep 08, 1922; pg. 7; Issue 43131; col F)
 * Just to update this section, the other place for contemporary news reports is the various local papers (though I'm not sure what the major local titles were in Nottingham at the time in the 1910s and 1920s) and also the Flight magazine (see Flight International), with the archives at Flightglobal.com. The search interface for those archives is here, but is pretty useless as it can't seem to cope with exact phrases. So I searched the domain name with Google and got the following results for Albert Ball and Captain Ball. The news covered is pretty much the same as that covered by The Times, the difference being that the pages of issues of Flight magazine can be linked to and are (at least currently) freely available, unlike the archives of The Times which you need some form of subscription or library access for. Anyway, I'm going to list a selection of links from those searches below (there is more, but only listing some here - all these links are to a PDF viewer).
 * Memorial Service
 * Under-Secretary for War asked about Captain Ball's fate
 * His sister's marriage and mention of his fiancee
 * Honour from the Aero Club of America
 * Statue memorial unveiling
 * Something on the Albert Ball VC scholarships
 * Captain Ball Hostel for the maimed named in London
 * That last entry is reporting the same thing as The Times did in the entry above titled 'Hostel For The Maimed'. This hostel was opened on 5 July 1917, after the memorial service in Nottingham, but before the VC investiture at Buckingham Palace. The hostel (called the 'Captain Ball Hostel' in the report) was for disabled soldiers, located in Mare Street, Hackney, London, and Ball's father attended the opening, with the honours done by Brigadier-General (later Air Commodore) Lionel Charlton. Also in attendance were Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen (junior government minister at the time - at the Pensions Ministry), Sir Charles Wyndham and Sir Frederick Milner (ex-MP who worked with ex-servicemen). The funds of over £10,000 were provided by members of the Eccentric Club (the report in The Times gives the location as '4 King Edward's Road' and states that this hostel "originated with the offer of £1,000 by a member of the club as a memorial to Captain Ball, and in a month £3,000 was collected"). The original building is almost certainly not there any more, but I can easily travel to that location (as opposed to travelling to Nottingham) and might wander up that street to see what is there now (probably completely changed, as I said, but you never know). Anyway, I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere else (apart from the report in The Times). Do any of the book-length sources mention this hostel in London? Carcharoth (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Couple more points
Noting here that extra details on the memorial in the field in France where he crashed are here. It seems the current layout is different to what was there originally (two markers, not just one, and triangular patch and path). If that is considered a reliable source, it might be worth including, or if this detail is excessive, then just finding some way of pointing interested readers in that direction (I would add a footnote or further reading link saying "further details available at..."). The other point about the memorials in France is the succession of grave markers, from the German one, to the RFC one, to the one erected by the family. The German memorial cross inscription is given in the Albert Ball entry in Supreme Courage (Peter de la Billiere), a history of the Victoria Cross. The link is to the 2011 edition. None of the memorial inscriptions have been quoted in this article, but that is one that could be considered (I'm personally torn on memorial inscriptions, because I like the idea of being able to find them on Wikipedia, but the various memorial inscriptions would overwhelm the text of this article unless put in a series of footnotes). That account by de la Billiere is from page 41 to 52, some 11 pages, and is well worth using as a source, IMO (though I can't assess how much it goes beyond what Bowyer wrote). Certainly if the ODNB account is used as a source, this one probably should be as well, given the length, or it should be put in further reading. If de la Billiere gives a slightly different analysis of the final flight (as he seems to), then NPOV probably requires using this source as well. Getting back to the memorial crosses, there is mention here of the three different grave markers. The first one and the third one can be sourced. Is there a way to source the fact that the RFC put up a marker after the war to replace the German one? As the German one eventually (according to that website) ended up at Trent College, there must be a published account somewhere of what happened there, and really the RfC cross should have been kept somewhere. Two final points are: (i) some of the portraits used in this article (and some not included) appear to have been by official war artists. The fact that these are official portraits/depictions of the pilots and the air battles, should be explicitly sourced and mentioned; (ii) There was an article in The Builder in 1922 that features the 'cartouche' on the Captain Ball, VC, Memorial Hostel. Given the date (1922) and location (Nottingham), this is almost certainly the Albert Ball Memorial Homes in Lenton (not the 1917 hostel in London). But several sources refer to the Homes as a Hostel, so there may be some confusion still present there. But the real point I'm making here is that architectural publications also reported on those Memorial Homes. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I've seen the 2011 Supreme Courage on GoogleBooks but will probably use the 2004 edition as my library has it. I noticed it has the inscription on the cross and will probably add that, however I'm a little unsure of the author because, despite his credentials as a soldier, he does uncritically report what I believe is now generally regarded as myth, that all VC metal is from Russian cannon of the Crimean War, and also suggests Ball downed almost 70 aircraft, without any explanation that I could find for the discrepancy between that and the official total of 44. Of course many of the WWI aces are thought to have accounted for more than their official total, but nowhere else have I seen such a high figure in connection with Ball; at the very least it should have been discussed on first mention. Still, will give the book a go... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed that high figure as well. And another discrepancy is that some sources say the identification bracelet Albert gave Flora was gold, when silver (as stated by other sources) seems more likely. Were official identification bracelets really made of silver anyway? Would this have been a privately made one? Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of little discrepancies. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash. Carcharoth (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Rushing a bit, but putting a few more points here: I'm also going to try and look at a copy of the 1921 work by Briscoe (the children's version of his 1918 work), and see what is said there. Carcharoth (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Albert Ball's Flying Aces - as far as I can tell, a modern band with this name, playing WWI-era music, pretending to be a group of RFC pilots in Paris after the war. Though possibly that backstory is genuine (in the sense that such a group existed), I doubt it. All rather bizarre. The fact that they are listed on the Eccentric Club's website, the same organisation that paid more than 90 years ago for a hostel in London named after Ball, appears to be entirely coincidental.
 * Cyril Ball was Albert's younger (not older) brother (I think I said older brother above), and an interview with him was posted on the Aerodrome forums, along with other stuff such as the newspaper article by Stannard. I've lost the links now, but browsing the Aerodrome forums should bring them up fairly quickly.
 * Another article on the Eccentric Club-funded hostel named after Ball. I found this from a different search, as this would not have come up in either searches for "Albert Ball" or "Captain Ball", but only in searches for "A. Ball".
 * Found on Google Books: Baily's Magazine of Sports & Pastimes, Volume 109 (1918), page 38: "Mr. Cobbold, 'the prince of dribblers,' as he has been called by footballers, has penned, an ode in Latin to the memory of Flight-Commander A. Ball, VCDSO, after whom one of the Eccentric Club hostels has been named" (note again the reference to "A. Ball" an almost impossible term to search by). If I manage to get hold of a copy of that poem Cobbold published, it will be interesting to see if it is in Latin, or whether Cobbold did other odes as well.
 * There were two versions of the Newling painting, one in 1919, and one in 1921. The one in the Wikipedia article is the 1919 one.
 * I went and had another look at the Nottinghamshire Archives link on the National Archives site, and if you follow one of the links there, you get a very detailed description for one of the archives, with quotes from lots of the letters they hold. It isn't all the letters (presumably those are in the other archive), but it gives you lots of reliable online quotes that readers can be pointed towards. The external link currently in this Wikipedia article could be tweaked to point readers in that direction, as it is easy to miss that link at the page to which the readers are currently sent.

Computer animation of Ball's last flight
Greetings, all,

A thrilling little film to watch, but with many inaccuracies. I won't enumerate them all here, but showing Ball wearing a helmet is only the first error. I don't recommend linking this to the article.

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Some notes
Managed to peruse copies of some of the books on a library trip, and I made the following notes: Those are all the notes I had time to make. The 'article' in The Times from 1999 is all of 54 words. I'm not sure where the rest of the text on the Victoriacross website came from. I did find a local Nottingham newspaper article that mentioned the French school, so can e-mail that if anyone is interested (no scan, just had it e-mailed to me). Carcharoth (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On page 309 of Briscoe and Stannard (Captain Ball VC, 1918) there is a mention of the Eccentric Club hostel "for limbless men from the Army and Navy". The only information here that is not in sources provided elsewhere is that it was "originated by his friend Mr James White".
 * On page 310-11 of Briscoe and Stannard (Captain Ball VC, 1918) is the story of the Sherwoods advancing in battle to the cry of "Remember Captain Ball!". However, the battle is not named, so that ditches the idea of mentioning that. That story is all very Boy's Own anyway.
 * I took another look at the Cobbold poetry book (Rhymes on the War, 1919), and the poem to Ball is on pages 2-5 and is indeed 32 stanzas long, but I still didn't photocopy it, though one of the stanzas (about a funeral pyre) was reproduced elsewhere, I think.
 * Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) ends with an epitaph on page 181 from the war correspondent Maurice Baring who joined the RFC during WWI and was an assistant to Henderson and Trenchard. That snippet of information led (via Google) to this, a letter from Baring to T. E. Lawrence asking for him to review Kiernan's book! (Note that Lawrence is addressed by Baring as 'Shaw', the name Lawrence adopted in the RAF).
 * Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) acknowledges H. A. Jones, the "British Official Air Historian". I've tried without much success to find out more details about H. A. Jones, but seeing that reminded me that the DNB entry for Ball, written in 1927, was by the same H. A. Jones.
 * Kiernan's book (Captain Albert Ball, 1933) has a forward by Air-Marshal Sir J. F. A. Higgins.
 * The Briscoe/Stannard book (Captain Ball VC, 1918) also has an appreciation by Higgins and I did consider using some of it since he's notable but I felt that Lloyd George, Haig and Trenchard were enough, and were also an order of magnitude better known to the general reader. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Briscoe second book on Ball (The Boy Hero of the Air, 1921) was indeed written for children, as the title suggests.
 * As I think I suggested ealrier, might be worth just mentioning this one, but probably no more. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Tks mate. I'd like to see the Times and Nottingham paper articles if you can email them, as I agree it'd be good to cite the French school tidbit to an RS in the main body, rather than have the ELs. Naming a house in a local school is one thing, naming an entire school in another country is definitely worth mentioning. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

WWI Resource Center links redux
Hello,

Would the Nottingham Evening Post be considered a reliable source? If so, we have some valuable info in their articles. First, there is the insights into his personality, and his interplay with his family in his letters. Second, there are useful facts about his connections, such as his and his father's stock ownership in Austin Motors, which led to the Austin Ball fighter, and his return to combat.

If you deem the NEP reliable, I should be glad to mine these sources. After all, it's scarcely fair to leave so much of this work to Ian and Carcharoth.

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't see how it'd be considered less reliable than say the Lenton Listener -- more so if anything. My suggestion, George, is to make a few notes for us all here on the interesting tidbits, and we look at adding them after the A-Class Review has run its course (i.e. pre-FAC). Albert Sr's connection to Austin is definitely worth pursuing as it better explains the background of the Austin-Ball fighter -- I've seen that connection mentioned elsewhere but I don't think it was a reliable source so didn't add it at the time. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:27, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

A-Class achieved, next stop FAC
Tally-ho chaps! Congrats George and thanks for your recent input and support Carcharoth, which helped get this article to its most recent milestone. As I mentioned earlier, one tends to get more reviews at FAC from the MilHist crowd the quicker one nominates there after ACR, so I think we should prepare the article as soon as we can. So that we don't edit conflict, suggest we briefly note the key things we want to do and agree those (and who will action) before going much further; I think best we use headings and short sharp bullet points as well. I also think we can also afford to be fairly prudent in what we add to the article; what comes to mind for me are: That's all I have time for now... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Images
 * You'd have noted that I had to ditch the two excellent paintings because the Imperial War Museum has copyright on their photos, though not the paintings themselves. So if someone wanted to view and photograph the paintings at the museum, we could probably use those photos -- however that's a nice-to-have, not essential...!
 * I'm in the process of requesting deletion of the Austin-Ball image from Commons as we're unsure of copyright, and I think it'd be worth recreating it on WP with a fair-use rationale given how unlikely it'd be to be able to obtain a free image -- opinions?
 * I know I said I wasn't that keen on the shot in the car from the National Portrait Gallery, even though it appeared to be out of copyright since the photographer died more than 70 years ago. However, since I've had to move the portrait with the Caudron to the infobox, perhaps we should use the car shot in the early part of the First World War section for want of anything better -- again, opinions?
 * Are there any other images we know of that are definitely out of copyright and could be uploaded to Commons for use in the article?
 * References
 * As discussed earlier, I think one of us needs to locate a copy of Pengelly's Albert Ball VC: The Fighter Pilot Hero of World War as it's the most recent book, in case it provides new insights.
 * If we end up using Pengelly, I think we can afford to not bother with the 1994 edition of Bowyer's Albert Ball VC; I've seen bits of the latest edition on Amazon and the author admits there's not a great deal more in the new one.
 * Carcharoth, I'll leave to you whether you think it's worth including anything from Kiernan's Captain Albert Ball.
 * Carchoroth, you had a couple of sources similar in theme to Robertson's The Dream of Civilised Warfare -- could you remind us of those and is there anything we should still use to augment Robertson's perspective?
 * Carcharoth, you had a newspaper scan or two re. the Franch school I think...
 * George, as previously, if the NEP can be cited for Albert Sr's connection to Austin that's useful as it better explains the background of the Austin-Ball fighter.

Ian and Carcharoth,

Good show on the ACR, you two.

I will be out of touch for a few days. I'm helping my daughter move residence, but I will pitch in upon my return.

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this section, Ian. Like George, I'm a bit busy this week, but will try and get back to this in a few days time. One thing that could be done is to go through some of the stuff I posted above where there are no responses, and say yea or nay on the various suggestions. Ping me on my talk page if more is needed. I'll use the "e-mail this user" link on your user page, Ian, to send you the newspaper articles - George, would you like copies as well? Carcharoth (talk) 20:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I've pulled a MacArthur; I have returned.

My first order of business has been to request such books as I can through my library's reference desk. Theoretically, the following may be available, and I have requested them:

Kiernan's Captain Albert Ball; I requested the 1939 edition.

Pengelly's Albert Ball VC.

Briscoe's Boy Hero of the Air.

My fourth request is an intriguing one that we have not previously noted. Horses Don't Fly is a memoir by America's first ace, Frederick Libby. A preliminary peek via Google book search shows that he claimed to be buddies with Ball, and that Ball saved Libby's life on several occasions.

Given the fact we already have British and French reactions to Ball's exploits, it might be interesting to include American reactions if possible.

Now, if I only don't have to move before the books come in....

Cheero, chaps.

Georgejdorner (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! I have "been bold" and made a couple of changes to clarify things about particular aircraft. The gunner of a B.E.2c was of course awkwardly placed in the front seat, not in the rear - and the modifications to Ball's S.E.5 seem to have been muddled with the "standard" ones made to ALL 56 squadron's S.E.5s. The C.C. synchronising gear gave a lot of trouble at this time, it worked on a radically different principle to the older mechanical gears and the ground crews took a while to get used to the proper way of adjusting them. Ball's constant Vickers "jams" may have been connected with this. Finally - I'm not at all sure that the young lady pulling his body from the wreckage isn't just another "Albert Ball legend" (there are a lot of them, as I'm sure everybody here is well aware!) - sounds just a bit too romantic to be true, as well as just being inherently unlikely. I nearly cut this myself - but just in case someone has a REALLY unimpeachable source... If there is any doubt I think it should go. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:27, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have made a few futher tweaks - the bit about the "early S.E.5 engine not being able to run inverted" may be not quite right - by no means sure that ANY Hispano-Suiza engine would run inverted for very long - or even if ANY inline engine of the time could, for that matter... --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A final comment for the moment - "tour of duty" strikes me as being anachronistic - anyone have a instance of the term being used in 1916/17??. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:09, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Nearly forgot!! The bit about the Austin-Ball A.F.B.1 fighter needs rewriting - Ball certainly did not design it (although the designers may have consulted him about seating and armament arrangements), and it cannot be identified with the "heaps better than the Hun Fokker" plans he was sent in 1916 either - more likely a much later design, as it was designed around the Hispano.. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, appreciate any improvements but can I just check that the changes you've made are attributable to the sources already in the article or are they from your particular knowledge? If we've misinterpreted a source, then it's fair to change the article and leave the source in place. However if you're adding/changing info based on another source or your own head, it doesn't help the verifiability aspect, so in that case better to discuss it here first... Thanks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Appreciate the need generally to keep statements cosistent with that in cites. On the other hand our wording will not necessarily be the same as that of the cites (copyright infridgement if it was, in fact!!). If a source says that a B.E.2c had the gunner's seat behind then it is (very) plainly in error, likewise if a source indicates that the removal of the "glasshouse" windscreens from the early S.E.5 was something done to Ball's aircraft but not the rest. By all means double check sources of course - although especially in the B.E.2c case we are perhaps just correcting a minor slip about something fairly peripheral to the main point of the cited text and my correction may well stand. Otherwise a minor rewriting of our text (simply omitting mention of which seat the gunner occupied for instance, or leaving out the bit about the windscreen and concentrating on Ball's experimentation with the S.E.'s armament) may fit the bill. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In fact - I've bin and gorn and dun it, Mister! I.E. edited my own edits so as to confine myself to omission of what was probably just a slip or confusion in the text cited rather than a careful correction which introduced material of (in this context) doubtful notability.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ian - I have vetted all my recent edits - endeavouring to supply alternate references when I have added anything positive or explanatory, rather than just deleting "doubtful" or irrelevant information. Hope this is now OK. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(Addressing s.o.m's concerns)

The trope of the fair French teenager pulling Ball from the wreckage is widespread throughout the sources; I recall a claim that the crash smashed down onto her family's property. I should think that Hailer and his three companions would have claimed to have extricated Ball if they were first on the scene. However, I do recall there was disagreement about the girl's name, although her purported descendants still hold a commemorative ceremony annually. However, the question of whom pulled Ball from the wreckage is trivial. It may, indeed, have to go.

Also, I rather doubt that any carburetted engine will run when inverted; it takes fuel injection for that. Certainly, when I rolled a carburetted car onto its roof, it quit running posthaste!

"Tour of duty" is my stylistic error. Its replacement with the equivalent in the Queen's English would improve the article.

It does sound as though the Austin-Ball fighter needs more research. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that Ball, despite his youth, was quite talented with mechanical items and had founded his own machine shop before his enlistment. At any rate, if you have any sources concerning design of this airplane, please do share them.

Cheers. Georgejdorner (talk) 15:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I realise that the "fair French teenager" occurs in many sources - I fear this may be because one source tends to follow the other, and a good yarn should never get in the way of facts! Many other unlikely "Ball Legends" have been (rightly!) excluded from this article - and I fear this one will have to go too. Incidentally I have read (can't remember where) a contradictory myth that his crashed S.E.5 (and his body) was never positively identified because it was pulverised by artillery fire. Just goes to show. If the "gallant hero" really did "die in the arms of a fair maiden" then it is after all not that notable anyway, at least not in an encyclopedia as opposed to a medieval romance.


 * I am going to "be bold" and expunge it, anyway! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry I haven't had the time to respond to all your points, which I wanted to, and thanks for reviewing your sources for the changes. Re. the French girl, when you removed the info from the main body, you left a mention in the lead. I've swapped things round, removing from the lead and restoring to the body. I was admittedly a bit dubious from the start about leaving it in the lead so am happy to de-emphasise a bit by losing the first instance but having gone through so many sources lately, none of which take issue with the story, leads me to believe it needs to stay in some fashion -- I don't believe we can or should arbitrarily remove a tidbit that is so ubiquitous in the sources. I agree it sounds legendary, and that wrong info can be repeated through multiple supposedly reliable sources. However unless a writer in an RS has questioned the story, and/or provided alternate data, it's not really up to us to leave it out. If someone reliable casts doubt, I have no prob including and citing that. Yet even Ball's prime biographer, Bowyer, vouches for the story, going so far as to name the lady, and he claimed in his introduction that he was at pains to print the facts on Ball, not the legend. Of course I'm still open to discussion on this -- it's a team effort -- but I didn't get a chance to discuss this before now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Addenda:

I have the Above the Trenches pages for Ball in my files.

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Austin-Ball A.F.B.1
The J.M.Bruce write-up on this type is very much to the point, and I think he can be taken as an authoritative source. I have based my redrafting of the section on "Ball's fighter" quite closely on his account, anyway. Hope my work here is "notable in context", succinct, and fair. Have tried hard to keep my referencing standard up to those of the article in general. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The main article on the AFB1 probably needs some work too, I will look at it later, perhaps. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Once more - I've gorn an bin and dunnit! The new AFB1 article is now much better (quoth he, with his usual lack of false modesty). The only fault with this one I've haven't "fixed" yet is that "tour of duty" bit - that is definitely not 1914-1918 usage, I fear, and will need to be corrected to avoid anachronism. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 11:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Please do replace "tour of duty"–if only to avoid the connotations of the video game!

Georgejdorner (talk) 12:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've modified the "tour of duty" instance. SoM, tks for expanding the Austin-Ball bit, which was always a bit thin. For some reason I missed the bit in Bowyer's bio -- it's in an appendix -- where, like Bruce, he clarifies the "better than the Fokker" idea. I think we still have to give credit to Ball for driving the idea, and also his father, who just happened to be on Austin's board (!) as George mentioned earlier on this page. If the latter point isn't in Bruce, it is in Bowyer. A couple of things with your rewrite/expansion... The expression he was consulted about aspects of the design of the Austin-Ball A.F.B.1 which was being designed by Austin staff makes it look like Ball's ideas were incorporated in a design already under way, whereas Bowyer maintains that Ball and his father took some sketches to Austin and this led to the design work beginning (primarily under Brook, as Bruce says). Also we can't really have although the apparent lack of a Foster mounting in this position in the aircraft as finally built would probably not have pleased him if it's not cited -- I know that Bowyer doesn't suggest Ball was displeased with the gun positions. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi again, Ian. The info about Ball and the A.F.B.1 should be mainly driven, (IMHO) NOT by the bio. books/articles, which are often very scratchy on technical matters (nothing sinister or unexpected about that, after all they're ABOUT people, not machines) - but by authoritative historical texts about the aeroplane itself. J.M. Bruce, who is (was?) a very careful historian and accustomed to scan original documents rather than just summarise or synthesise others' work - as well as the Harborough Books "compilers and editors" who while their work is sometimes a little dates are what all the cheapie types copy (more or less accurately) anyway, are very good sources indeed for information about aircraft - and it is basically their consensus that now informs that section of the article. We don't know, really, if Ball had very much to do with the design - Bruce thinks (and he's looked at more evidence than we've got access to) that it was probably very little. It would be very natural for Bowyer, on the other hand, to exaggerate Ball's likely input, which I (following Bruce) believe he did. Ball died (alas) before he got a chance to see what the Austin designers had made of his ideas - I think it is an important point that the upward firing gun on the AFB was far less flexible than the Foster mounting Ball was used to on both his Nieuport and the S.E.5 - and I am personally quite sure that it wasn't what he had in mind at all. Nonetheless - some of my points may well be non-notable in context, by all means edit them (if you haven't already). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I have addressed (I hope) at least some of your concerns - just pointing out that the Foster mounting wasn't there (you can see on the photographs it wasn't!!!) without guessing about what Ball would have thought (he would, I am quite sure, have been furious, but this is speculation, albeit well-informed). Again, the AFB1 MUST have been at quite an advanced stage of "general concept" design, at least, by the end of 1916 - and even if the Austin people had already seen some sketches by Ball one feels sure that they had been doing most of the work. None the less, I have changed the text a little to leave the possible degree of Ball's own contribution a little more open. Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all that. I think Bowyer has written so many books on aspects of military aviation that he be considered reasonably objective in his bio. Thanks also for taking the trouble to add back the Austin-Ball pic. Given the issue raised during ACR concerning its authorship I had to make the deletion request to bring things to a head and someone else also pointed out that they'd seen a copy of the shot attributed to IWM, so it was just a matter of waiting for the 'kept' decision, which we got in the last 24 hours or so. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Ian, no desire to denigrate Bowyer - but biography is a form of literature with a venerable tradition of introducing fictional and/or doubtful matter. A biography of A.V.Roe (for example) might excusably overstate the success of its subject's early aircraft, if only to put his later achievemnts into perspective. We expect "stretchers" of this nature in biography. I believe Bower's biography of Ball is very objective indeed as biographies go - I am quite sure he never tells a deliberate lie, even in order to make a truthful point - but I do fear that (without labouring the point) someone like Bruce is a much better source for information about the A.F.B.1, and even the connection between this aircraft and Ball. An encyclopedia article's standard of objectivity should in any case be much higher than that of the most objective biography, anyway. Yes, I was in "in the loop" about the questions that were raised about the AFB pikkie - noticed the "remmed out" version lurking there and triumphantly "unremmed" it once the question was settled. I didn't imagine for one moment that you or someone else wasn't keen to do the same thing - just jumped in I'm afraid. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Horses Don't Fly
This book is a bust so far as Albert Ball is concerned. There is no real factual material about Ball, other than his service in the same squadron with Frederick Libby.

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Tks George. I think we have a well-detailed and pretty well-balanced article as is, and Pengally is the main one to be looking at since it's the latest full-length bio and we should be aware of what's in it before we sign off on this for FAC. If you're able to get hold of it as you indicated above, that'd be great. I think you mentioned Kiernan as well, though Carcharoth also has access to that one from memory -- since it's a 1933 release, and ODNB used it as a source, I think just one or two citations to it would be plenty to allow us to move it from Further Reading to References, if we want to. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Bullet holes in wreck?
Hope my deletion of this sentence won't jar - just that it is pretty meaningless. How evident would bullet holes be in a wrecked "wood and fabric" aeroplane anyway? Now if they HAD noticed bullet holes that would have at least shown that Ball had been shot up - that they DIDN'T on the other hand proves precisely nothing, and so isn't notable. In fact the sentence has the appearance of being put there to bolster the idea (which FWIIW I believe is on the whole favoured by the evidence) that Ball's fatal crash was accidental. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It has been my (and many other military veterans) personal experience that .30 caliber bullet holes in heavy fabric are quite easily discernible. We used to mark them all the time on the rifle range by pegging each and every one with a colored dowel when "pulling butts". Once so marked, they were visible from 200 yards. Unmarked, they were still easily visible on the 1,000 inch range during the initial stage of sighting in a new rifle.

It seems unlikely that at least one of the four German military pilots (that is, Leutnant Hailer and companions) would not have noticed and reported any bullet holes. Of course, there were more than four trained military men who viewed the wreckage, but I noted them especially since they were the first trained personnel on the scene.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed - but then the fabric was all torn and crumpled anyway from the crash - not taught and intact like a canvas target. The point is that they didn't remark on bullet damage. This is neither that surprising (they were very naturally far more concerned with Ball himself, and offering him assistance if he were still alive, rather than examining his aeroplane in detail) nor is it notable - since there may very well have been bullet damage (evident or otherwise) that they simply didn't remark on. How detailed and comprehensive is the report we have? In fact do we have a verbatim on what they actually reported at all? If one of them actually reported something to the effect that "On close examination of the crashed aircraft there was no evidence of bullet damage" then that would obviously be something totally different. But in that case what would Lothar von Richthofen's claim have been based on? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * First thing, your edit seems to have removed the last citation from the paragraph, and the para as a whole is now left hanging as the reader will see the Germans hurrying to the crash site and then -- what? If you don't like the bullet hole thing, that's one thing, but we need to include that there was no evidence of damage other than from the crash, which has a number of sources. Leave it to me, I'll tidy it up when I get a sec today. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The "fair maiden"
Ian, I am still a little concerned that this doesn't really belong in an encyclopedia article, however often it has been repeated in other kinds of writing. If we are determined to keep it, perhaps we could change the wording, so it looks at least a little less like we're endorsing unlikely matter just because it's "so romantic"? I am going to have a a shot at this - If you want to revert this change I'm not going to go to war over it - just my way of making the suggestion. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There - hope that meets with approval - that good old standby "It is said that...". This can still stand before the Bower cite - since he is one of several writers who have "said" it. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, mate, what concerns me the most is that you seem to be setting yourself up as more of an authority on what's real and what's not than professional historians. Believe me, I'm no incurable romantic and I've already said that if any reputable authors out there have refuted this point or even cast doubt on it, I'd be happy to work that into the article. I just haven't seen it and you haven't presented anything to that effect either. Just yesterday I was in the library researching another article when I spotted Max Arthur's book on VC winners and he too mentioned the scene, without a hint of irony. Having nominated and reviewed dozens of articles for FAC, I'm quite sure that editorialising like "It is said that..." won't past muster. Just to show that I do understand where you're coming from, I myself have used the term "reportedly" when including what I consider somewhat dubious claims, but only when I have say two reliable sources for an event and one mentions something fantastic about it while the other doesn't. That's not the case here, as many reliable souces mention the same thing (so please don't simply go and replace "It is said that" with "Reportedly"...!) The bottom line is that if we attach doubts to a popular claim, those doubts have to be attributed like anything else in the article, yet as far as I'm aware we have no RS we can cite for such doubts. We've already reduced its emphasis by losing it from the lead, I don't think we need do more than that unless further info comes our way. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello, all,

Albert Ball, VC by Bowyer, p. 211:

"The girl, Madame Lieppe-Coulon, had been the first to reach the wrecked aircraft, and after seeing that Ball was apparently still breathing, had lifted him from his fractured cockpit. Ball, cradled in her arms, lived only for a few seconds; his eyes opened just once."

A photo of her adorns the bottom of the page.

See http://www.amazon.com/Albert-Ball-VC-Chaz-Bowyer/dp/0947554890/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320242563&sr=1-1

I hope this lays this little discussion to rest, so we can get on with the rest of our project.

Georgejdorner (talk) 14:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear Lord above - you can just see the illustration from the Boy's Own Weekly, can't you? OK, I'll submit to consensus here (collapsing into my "fractured cockpit") - I do agree with George that we have more important things to be worried about, but to me this sort of BS cheapens Wiki as an encyclopedia - endorsing obvious biographical flourishes like this is not what we really should be about. Mutters into his "closely shaven beard", while taking a swig from his "empty cup of coffee". (Abandons Wiki editing "forever, or at least 10 minutes".)--Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

But, my tuneful friend, you are (somewhat) correct. It hinges on whether one considers a married woman of 21 or 22 a "fair young maiden". The photograph shows a woman of the sort of staturesque figure admired at that time. Certainly, she is not the teen nymph to whom texts sometimes refer.

And now, let's move from niggling over details, and leave her to the footnotes of history. I don't think she is necessarily relevant, nor need be mentioned in the bio.

Do you also favor cognac in your coffee?

Your unshaven Yankee buddy,

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Honestly - I really have given up on this one, assuming the consensus was against me. But with George apparently hopping from side to side.


 * Just one last time, a really quick summing up.


 * 1. This is really incredibly unlikely. My saying this is not "setting me up" as anything, nor is it unduly cynical. There are a lot of urban legends about Ball - George and Ian, you have both come very close to admitting that this looks an awful lot like one of them. The weight of "reliable sources" who have run with this one (they do so inconsistently, and many of them run with other rubbish that we have no hesitation in excluding) means very little. Frankly, a lot of these sources are NOT particularly reliable, and none of them are infallible. This is an encyclopedia, and our main contraints of indisputable accuracy, and succinct presentation do not apply to the same degree to even the most serious biography - much less the Boy's Own Magazine type fairy tale books at the bottom end of the spectrum of our sources. I suggest, in fact, that if it were not for one source that is actually a good deal more objective than the others the question of including it would never have arisen.


 * 2. This is marginally notable. Honestly, if we leave it out I don't think many people would say "Gee, why did they leave such an important bit out as that". More to the point, if they were to say something like that I don't think they would have much of a point. There is a lot about Ball we could have said but haven't - by no means everything we have omitted is necessarily untrue. Again, this is an encyclopedia - we don't make stuff up (OR/NPOV) but as editors we DO have to pick and choose a bit what we include - in something is rather doubtful (or even a little bit doubtful) and at the same time less than vitally notable and important - then we are quite justified in excluding it.


 * I repeat, I am NOT going to edit war about this - on the whole this article deserves its "A" upgrade and does everyone credit. Just make up your mind one way or the other George, so we can move on ... Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Alot of people seem to think it incredibly unlikely that John F. Kennedy was killed by a lone nut assassin, but after reading a significant amount of literature on the subject, I have to say that I think he was... Anyway, to get back on track, I've understood George's comment to be that we needn't mention the woman's name, not that we shouldn't mention her at all, but will leave him to confirm before I make any changes along the lines I've indicated in my previous comment. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Pardon me if my posts have recently seemed scattered and digressive. Between WP sessions, I am singlehandedly packing up my household for moving. I am a bit distracted as a result.

The points I were trying to make:

1. A multiplicity of sources mention a French woman being first on the crash scene. I have yet to find a source that denies that.

2. Her name may have been Madame Liepe-Colon; other sources say Madame Cecille Delorffe. In either case, a Madame is a married woman, not a fair young maiden. At any rate, we are left with irresolution as to her identity, but I doubt she was the dewy teenager as sometimes claimed.

3. If the German officers had been first on the scene, the German claim of Lothar von Richthofen's victory probably would have gone unchallenged.

4. Did someone "improve" the story in later years to change the French housewife into the fair young maiden? Sure looks like it.

4. The "improved" tale is so widespread, I feel a sober straightforward version would serve as a corrective.

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Needless to say, I agree with all George's points. Liepe-Colon, according to Bowyer, was around 25 I think, so "young woman" seems a simple and appropriate way to describe her, not "girl" as one or two sources have it and which is indeed romanticising things. In that case I believe that the wording as we had it before SoM's last edit ("It is said that...") is "a sober and straightforward version" and still works for me. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Gee whizz! I've long since stopped seriously worrying about this one really - I think I am outvoted - but we've got some very muddled thinking going on here. George - seriously, did the cognac get poured into your coffee a little to copiously? Lots of different versions of a story (including different names, ages, etc. of main protagonists, varying versions of precisely what happened etc.) are usually sign of rumour and legend having been at work. Even if there is a grain of truth in the matter (and we don't really even know that) I don't think that rumour and legend (or tales at best corrupted by rumour and legend) belong in an encyclopedia. Put it another way - has the story been "improved" (in various directions) from a "true" core - or was the original tale an "improvement" on what actually happened?? Who can tell? The very multitude of references to the story, and the lack of agreement between them seems to me as a reason for doubting its conection to reality, not the other way round. In view of the above, I find the idea that the legend somehow needs to be "unproved", and that from a RS at that, very strange indeed. To push the Lee Harvey Oswald analogy - do we need conclusive proof that he wasn't in the pay of Cuban exiles in order to ignore that unlikely scenario?


 * Oh George - doubts about "the German claim of Lothar von Richthofen's victory" have nothing to do with who fished Ball's body out of the wreckage. The fact is that Lothar claimed to have shot down a Sopwith Triplane (there actually was one there: the pilot, from a nearby RNAS squadron, was separated from his formation and somehow got mixed up in the stoush between 56 and Jagstafel 11 - but he got home safely anyway). Someone in German headquarters seems to have assumed that Ball was flying the triplane - when as we all know he was flying an S.E.5 - all goes to show that the much praised German victory claim system wasn't foolproof. In fact if there was a wreck there they tended to look around to see who they could credit it to.


 * Look, I've just been saying that the tale is unlikely - assuming that it was obvious, but maybe this needs to be actually spelled out - it's a war zone - and while there's not actually a "ground" battle going on there's lots of German soldiers around, not to mention rather low flying aircraft whizzing about overhead shooting at each other. It's really horrible weather - visibility is very poor and if it's not actually raining it has been, and the ground is wet and muddy. A young lady (variously descibed as a teenager or in her twenties, and identified by at least two different names) hears a loud noise near her house. Far from diving under the table, which is what I would have done, and what, I suspect Ian and George would have done too - she identifies the noise as an aeroplane crash near her house rather than (say) a mortar bomb - and rushes out (in the rain) to see if the pilot is alright (in spite of the fact that he is more likely than not a German). She reaches the site of the crash to find the "cockpit shattered" (and presumably the rest of the aeroplane a bit of a mess too). At this stage she see the roundels and realises it is an allied aircraft. There is a strong smell of petrol (in 1917 self sealing fuel tanks haven't been invented) and there is an obvious risk of fire and/or explosion. The young lady is undeterred - she manages to get at the cockpit (remember the S.E.5 was inverted just before the crash and is most probably upside down), undo his belt (a clumsy lap belt, without a quick release mechanism), and drag him out of the wreckage (if the "shattered cockpit" is not pure invention this is likely to have involved cutting away of splintered wood and untangling bracing wire). There is presumably a break in time before German soldiers arrive to relieve her of the body. They find a fair maiden (or perhaps just a young woman - more to the point a French civilian) nursing a dead British pilot, whom she has managed to extricate from his wrecked aircraft. How they would have reacted is problematic of course, but the Germans took the idea of civilians getting in the way of military matters very seriously indeed - there are many instances of them shooting people on the spot if they were suspected of (say) espionage or sniping at German soldiers. They would certainly have searched her for matches, if she had been carrying them the assumption would have been that she was trying to burn the wreck. In any case a young person, even a woman, caught in this situation would have been very unlikely to have escaped arrest. She would have been released only when the Germans were satisfied that she had not been up to anything prejudicial to the German war effort. And yet the young woman does not get into German accounts of the story at all.


 * Now none of this necessarily means that the story is a fabrication, it COULD be true. Given that people made up lots of other "Balldust" yarns - especially around our hero's death, I honestly think we can pretty safely discount it. Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I also favor the "It is said" version of this event as a fair compromise.

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Heh, and there I was thinking we really had all finished discussing it...! The irony about "us" going on about it is that we never had any issues with mentioning it until SoM raised his concerns... Anyway, George, I've said above why words like "It is said" aren't a great idea at FAC, and aren't necessary with a well-cited episode. Also as far as compromising goes, we've lost all mention of it from the lead, we've lost the part about Ball opening his eyes once before dying (even though Bowyer mentions it) and in my last edit I even dropped the bit that Ball "died in her arms" (also in Bowyer and other sources), replacing it with "died at the scene". That should be more than fair. BTW, I think readers are interested in who pulled him -- or any other famous flyer -- from wreckage of a crash, and if in Ball's case it was a young woman, we can't help that! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S.I will, of course, be interested in anything new Pengelly has to say on it -- and whatever else in his book that might make us tweak or expand on what we have in the article -- but until or unless new info arises I hope we can leave this one alone now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have very briefly "revisited" this - for purely gramatical reasons. As I said some time ago I have accepted all along that I am outvoted on this - and by people who have done much more than me to raise the standard of this article. Can't help remaining totally unconvinced of course. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 19:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Tks for your kind words in the middle there... ;-) The reason I stuck with "had been" is that I felt the narrative jumped around a little bit in time because it's trying to keep a number of parallel threads going, i.e. Hailer and the crash and the lack of battle damage, the Lothar claim, and Ball being pulled from the wreck. I'm not going to change your wording back, as it doesn't jar too much, but I was considering rejigging the sentences in the final flight section so events are presented in more-or-less chronological order -- in theory, would this work for everyone or do you all like the structure of the section as is? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

More on the AFB-1
Hello, all,

I just scored a reprint copy of the 1919 edition of Jane's All the World's Aircraft. It says the AFB-1 was "based on the ideas" of Albert Ball. I will try to bring the book with me, and give quote(s) and reference next time I get to use this library computer.

Please allow me some lag time. Library services are three days a week here.

It looks like another fortnight before I get internet hooked up in my new home. Of course, I have the joy of unpacking to amuse myself. Sigh.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Have a look at the article on the aircraft, George. I have a copy of the Janes reprint myself - it is (as you would expect) full of errors, and we usually take later works, especially those written by air historians well known for their insights and careful research, as superseding it. Even so, "based on the ideas of" is pretty vague, isn't it? In fact that's basically what we say already. In any case I don't think that this is a "new discovery" likely to merit any rewriting of our text. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't help smiling at your tribulations re. moving, by the way. I am strongly determined never to move again! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so much for the "new" info on the AFB-1.

The tribulations of moving to a really new home...it is not on the map! Not Mapquest, not the local cable internet provider. So I continue my battle to convince one and all that I am not encamped on a vacant lot.

Prolonged heartfelt sigh.

Georgejdorner (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Flight International's archives
Hello, all, from my brand new internet connection...

I checked the archives for mentions of Ball for the years 1914 through 1917. Rather surprisingly, I found only ten of them. Most of them were dud repetitions of events already covered. However, some items may be of interest:

12 October 1916, p. 890:

"The following semi-official account of the work of British flying officers during the Somme battle was issued in France on October 3rd:–

"'Our British allies are not in the habit of mentioning, as we are, the names of the airmen who, like Guynemer, Nungesser, and Navarre, add without ceasing new Boche machines to the total of casualties. They exist, however, and have to their credit some superb records. One pilot, Capt. Albert Ball, 20 years of age, has brought down 29 German aeroplanes and one Drachen. Like Nungesser, he destroyed three machines in a single morning."

This quote seems to indicate that the French were first to notice Ball's prowess. This may be the key as to how the RFC's non-mention of aces was circumvented.
 * Tks George! This is probably correct, I've seen it alluded to elsewhere. Linda Robertson, for one, mentions how the Brits were shy of publicising their aces early in the war, in contrast to the French and Germans. I should be able to add something to that effect, citing her book. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

22 February 1917, p. 187:

A mention that "last week", Ball had been awarded the Russian Order of Saint George. If true, this contradicts the present edition of the article, which posits this award as being in September 1916.
 * Both are true, actually. He was awarded the honour in September 1916 but it wasn't gazetted until February 1917. Bowyer mentions the two events in The Air VCs, so I can add something to that effect, citing his book. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

17 May 1917, p. 476: (same issue as below)

"Captain Albert Ball...has been missing since the evening of May 7th. He ascended with 10 others, and at 8 o'clock he was observed not far over the enemy lines, flying perfectly; the light was then failing and he was not seen subsuequently. According to one report he is a prisoner in German hands and in hospital wounded."
 * I think we have something already mentioning that it was hoped he was alive and a POW so not sure if we need to add anything from this entry... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

17 May 1917, p. 489: (same issue as above)

"Communication" from Boom Trenchard (described as "commanding officer of Flight Commander Capt. Albert Ball") to Albert Ball, Sr:

"I very much regret having to tell you that your son, Captain Ball, is missing, but sincerely hope that he has landed safely. As you know, he was the most daring, skilful, and successful pilot the R.F.C. ever had. Everyone in the Flying Corps has looked upon him as their own personal asset, and he was a most popular officer. His good spirit was infectious, as whichever squadron he was with the officers of it tried to work up to his level and reputation. I have never met a man who has been so successful as he was in such a short time, so modest, and so reliable."
 * I like some of his words there, my only concern is that we have many tributes (including one from Trenchard) in the article already and we don't want it to look hagiographic -- I'm open to arguments of course... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

So, what of the above do you think worthy of inclusion?

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Greetings,

I realize I am scraping the bottom of the information barrel, but I keep hoping we will get lucky. "Perseverance furthers."

Cheero,

Georgejdorner (talk) 19:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

WWI Resource Centre pages (and external links)
Listing here seven pages from the WWI Resource Centre related to Ball: Some may be of use. Some articles (judging by the last link) are no longer there. Carcharoth (talk) 22:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Article 2
 * Article 3
 * Article 4
 * Article 5
 * Article 7
 * Article 8
 * pictures

Greetings, all,

While this series contains some fascinating nuggets of information about Ball's life, the old reliable source issue raises its nasty little head. Are these website "pages" accurate? Who vouches for their accuracy? And just which year are they referring to, anyway?

They do shade on inaccuracy in at least one instance. Ball did not surpass Georges Guynemer's total victories; Guynemer had #45 confirmed on 5 June 1917, two days before Ball's death. A niggling point, but true, even though the claim is widespread in literature. However, given time delays in confirmation of victory claims, Ball may not have heard of Guynemer's latest triumphs and/or they had not yet been approved.

I would recommend that, if used, these links be placed under External links. That way, they are reader accessible without WP deeming them reliable.

Georgejdorner (talk) 00:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

UPDATE:

The above links trace back to The Nottingham Evening Post. A search keyed into their archives gives this list: http://www.highbeam.com/Search?FilterByPublicationID=436401&FilterByPublicationName=Nottingham+Evening+Post&searchTerm=%22Albert+Ball%22

Chock full of info on both Albert Balls, Sr. and Jr. Now, back to the action below:

Georgejdorner (talk) 09:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't even put them under external links. I provided them here purely so that those editing this article can read them and then (based on other reading) judge for themselves whether to follow up on anything mentioned there, or not, as the case may be. Certainly the pages I linked above can't be used as sources themselves, as the publication history and level of reliability is not at all clear. Having said that, the same might be said of the article in The Lenton Listener (by which I mean that the reliability could be questioned). I found out here that the 1981 article in The Lenton Listener was by an S. Zaleski. The webpage with the article on it says itself that: "The Lenton Listener was a neighbourhood magazine produced between 1979-88 for Lenton Community Association" - that may (rightly or wrongly) get questioned as a reliable source. Even though that copy of the article is hosted by the Lenton Local History Society, which might mean something. Carcharoth (talk) 00:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I felt that the Listener was a cut above some of the other sources that we supplanted because of RS issues when we were upgrading the article, so didn't touch it, however if someone makes a fuss I expect we can replace those citations with others from ODNB or Bowyer. I think it's good to have a few complete online sources as refs, and am wary of the External Links section getting too big. I trimmed that section before submitting for GA/A reviews but now it's about as big as before -- better links, certainly, but still quite a few... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In my experience, hardly any reviewers bother looking at external links, or they do so only to look for 'bloat' and ask for a reduction without considering quality. Relevance is far more important in my opinion. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a large but well-organised external links section if it helps the reader learn more about the topic. Some people get paranoid about external links because some articles are a magnet for spam, but this article isn't really one of those. If the external links do have to be trimmed, one of the first I'd drop is the Aerodrome one, as that doesn't seem to provide the reader with anything that isn't already available here. I'd also drop the ones about the French school once those are incorporated into the article - if need be, I'll go to a library, find the article in The Times and e-mail a scan to you. That would remove three external links and reduce the size of that section from nine lines to six, which is a reduction of one-third (really, this should be in a new section called 'External links' if we are going to discuss this properly). The external links I think are really good are the British pathe film reel, and the RFC tunic at the IWM. But I'm sure it is allowed to have more than two external links. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC) PS. I found the old version of the article when you started to trim the ELs, and they are here. I agree with the removals done there, though I did follow the link to Trent College and searched their website and found this (annoyingly, no date provided). Pity, as I thought it might confirm the currently commented out stuff about what is (or was?) displayed there. Carcharoth (talk) 01:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Putting two other tidbits here. Not really sources, but just something to note. Couldn't find a better source for the latter (not sure how reliable that source is). As far as images go, there are two I saw that I want to note here before I forgot: (i) Ball was featured on the cover of a history of the war; (ii) Ball was featured in French newspapers and magazines as well, not just English ones. Carcharoth (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * (1) Computer animation of Ball's last flight - someone spent a long time doing that.
 * (2) Stamps issued in 1976 for the 60th anniversary of 56 Squadron, with Ball featured.

I have emailed a request for help locating those seven articles to the librarian of the Nottingham Evening Post. She may post her response to this Discussion page and/or to my personal email account.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Pengelly redux.
Hello, all,

Pengelly's book on Ball is not available through my library.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)