Talk:Albert Camus/Archive 1

Archive questions
Hmm, I was searching Google and stumbled across this site: http://www.biblio.com/authors/641/Albert_Camus_Biography.html I see "a few" similarities to this article :) Who's copying who? Hopefully someone didn't cut and paste this whole article from that site...

Any ideas? --Smileyborg 04:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

re The Outsider: Should this not be The Stranger?

Good question. Literally "L'Étranger", translates as the stranger, but the outsider is the usual accepted translation of the name of this work, and it does so much better seem to sum up the condition of Meursault, the novel's protagonist. sjc

Is it not only coincidental though that "outsider" doesn't just mean "emmigrant/immigrant" or more accurately "foreigner" in english? I think "The Stranger" is a much more beautiful and elusive title, and it would stave off confusion from that completely different book by Hinton "The Outsiders". I do believe, though, we should label it in french first in the article and then have the two translations below it. How would that sound? It worked for some of Balzac's and de Maupassant's work and it would avoid ambiguity to anybody who was more than skim-reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.66.242 (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, the old translation by Stuart Gilbert was called The Outsider. The newer translation by Matthew Ward is named The Stranger. From what I have read, the difference in wording is the subject of some dispute.
 * This issue is preceisely why these books should be entered under their original titles! Eclecticology

It would be great if someone who has read The Myth of Sysiphus could elaborate on Absurdism (and the boundaries between Absurdism and Existentialism).
 * There's more to this topic than just the one Camus work.

I don't know what this means, but I've moved it here from the limit article, which I'm about to change a good deal:


 * Albert Camus wrote about the philosophical concept of limit especially as it plays out in politics.

Hey... Look at this line: "Camus joined the French Communist Party in 1934, apparently because of the Spanish Civil War, rather than support for Marxist-Leninist doctrine."

This can't possibly be right. The Spanish Civil War began in July of 1936. If Camus joined the French CP in 1934, it would have nothing to do with Spain. Can someone correct this, somehow? - micahbales 28 May, 2004

Does anyone havve more information on the short story "Guest"? It's typically used in college english courses. - DNewhall
 * Agree. &mdash; flamingspinach | (talk) 19:20, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

One of Camus's daughters was called Jean? Shouldn't it be Jeanne instead? Jean is a male name (in French). --Tamas 20:40, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * The name is spelled Jean in the biographical sketch section of Notebooks 1935-1942. I guess he has a son & a daughter. -- llywrch 20:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would it be worth adding a note that his first name is pronounced Alberr? If some people thought his surname was pronounced Cammuss (evident by the "kamoo" note in the first paragraph) then there might well be people who think his first name is pronounced like the English Albert. rob 06:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

After some fooling around, I embedded a OGG audio clip. Cgmusselman 07:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree with the the pronunciation guide for Albert to be pronounced /Alberr/! I've seen many people who pronounce it that way. if CamuS is pronounced CamOO then AlberT ought to be pronounced as AlbeR. Egbal.rezayi (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2010 (UTC) egbal.rezayi

Link suggestions
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Sisyphus
at the end it says: " Each of these people finds meaning in his or her own pursuits and thus lives up to the example of the Greek mythical figure Sisyphus, who was "condemned" to push a boulder up a hill for eternity fully aware that the boulder would simply fall down the hill as soon as he seemingly finished his task."

What Camus wants to remark in that myth is not the absurd in the "condemn". Instead, he shows that, not regarding of why he've left the Hades, Sisyphus sit at the beach to contemplate the beauty of it.

Mersault as a hero
I take some issue with the explication of L'Etranger, particularly the indication that Mersault is a hero in Camus' eyes. I would argue that he is just the opposite; Mersault is guilty of his crime and deserves to die in the absurdist sense, not because he is insensitive, but because he failed to recognize the absurdity of his life and wrest what little control he might have been able from it. In other words, he is guilty for his passivity, which Camus understandably dispised as a member of the resistance in Vichy France. Even Sisyphus, for that one hour that he is walking back down his mountain is free. On the other hand, Caligula is more the hero for following his absurb logic all the way through; at least he does so consciously and willfully.


 * In a 1955 afterward, Camus makes it pretty clear that he views Mersault as a hero (at least, as much of a "hero" as The Stranger allows for). Moreover, in Camus' eyes (or so he says), Mersault's only crimes are loving the truth and not crying at his mother's funeral. -Seth Mahoney 20:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont think any of Camus' comments describing his own characters should be on wikipedia, especially ambiguous things like the above. It could leave wrong-headed people who haven't read the text for themselves. Fatal misinterpretation is too easy in this kind of writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.66.242 (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Camus' The Fall
I'm currently working on a major reconstruction/expansion of Camus' novel, The Fall. I'm attempting to move it from stub status to a complete overview + analysis. If anyone on this page is familiar with the work, the help would be much appreciated! --Todeswalzer | Talk 20:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Reflections on the Guillotine
I'm after some input from the other people on this page -- does Camus' extended essay, Réfléxions sur la guillotine deserve its own page? This was, of course, the piece of writing (officially, anyway) that earned him the Nobel Prize; for that reason it seems to me to be a curious omission. Any other opinions on the matter? --Todeswalzer | Talk 02:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the piece deserves its own page. It did earn him the Nobel prize and fighting against the death penalty was an important part of Camus's life. It should at least be mentioned on the main page, right now its only listed in the bibliography section. Windmillchaser 22:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

If anyone is doing "The Reflections" piece, William Styron has an interesting AND influential piece (as in it saved someone's life) in "This Quiet Dust". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.66.242 (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

A perhaps unimportant note on French titles
I hate to imitate in any way that cruel grammar teacher that everyone had at some point in school, but -- I've noticed a consistent error when citing the French titles of Camus' works. Unlike in English, French titles do not capitalize every word, just the first one as though the title were itself a sentence. (Proper names are, of course, still capitalized.) The only exception here is when the first word happens to be a preposition (i.e. "Le", "La", "Les", etc.), which actually isn't much of an "exception" since virtually every French title will have such a word before it. In this case, the preposition is capitalized along with the "first word of substance". So, in English we would write something like, "The First Man"... In French this would be "Le Premier homme". Or, for a more ridiculous example,


 * English: "The Camus Family's Grammar Lessons"
 * French: "Les Leçons grammaires du famille Camus"


 * "les leçons grammaires du famille Camus" is absolutely not French anyway. You meant "les leçons de grammaire de la famille Camus".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.92.4 (talk) 20:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't ask me to explain why this is done in French: it's just one of those crazy subtleties of the language.

This is probably irrelevent to most people on this page, and probably considered unimportant by even more. However, it makes sense to me to write the titles properly if they're going to be written in their original French. In any event, I'll still keep an eye out ;) --Todeswalzer | Talk 22:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

''' I DONT KNOW WHERE TO PUT THIS, BUT I BELIEVE THAT ITS FALSE THAT ALBERT CAMUS WAS THE SHORTEST LIVED RECIPIENT FO THE NOBEL PRIZE, I THOUGHT IT TO BE PABLO NERUDA HE DIED TWO YEARS AFTER HE WON THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR LITERATURE, CAMUS DIED THREE YEARS AFTER. '''


 * Pablo Neruda was like 69 or 70 when he died. Camus was 46. What's the problem? Faithlessthewonderboy 05:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, you could consider not writing in bold caps. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 02:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought the bold caps were a death warrant. Mersault? Is that you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.66.242 (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Camusian Consolation
I owe a great debt of gratitude to Albert Camus for writing "The Myth of Sysyphus," wherein he shows that even in the worst of circumstances, in the pits of hell, one can still have a little fun, win a little moral victory. Hope you're in Heaven, Albert. Das Baz 17:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I guess that's one interpretation.... And to think I always thought it was about the meaninglessness of life. 208.4.152.130 23:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC) → —The "knowing" smile of Sisyphus was all that Camus had to give us in the middle of all the absurdities of this life. That's how it is to really learn something. We may cover 99.9% of all our travels with total ignorance, but then in an instant--a glimmer of something, an unknown, a point of contact with a reality which we cannot put into words or give away. Emptiness...Camus lived it the best way he could, he didn't just talk it like the existentialist philosophers, the academics did. He's my Man.

Existentialism
"one of the principal luminaries (with Jean-Paul Sartre) of existentialism". I don't think Camus wanted to be called an existentialist or compared to Sartre. Maybe someone could elaborate on this. Piet 13:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that Camus and Sartre agreed about existentialism for a while, but Camus started disagreeing when Sartre got too optimistic and political. I don't think Camus really considered himself a philosopher anyway, so maybe it's misleading to say unqualifiedly at the start of the article that he was a philosopher. That said, some of his essays probably are philosophy. Michael Keats 13:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I'm not an expert on the matter myself, my understanding is that they both agreed on the basic starting points of existentialism, but disagreed on how we ought to respond to them. --Todeswalzer | Talk 02:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, Camus was better oriented... 84.250.51.205 17:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Philosopher's box
Should there be a philosopher's box here? If so, does anyone know what should go in the boxes.


 * I put on one of the boxes, but as you can see someone needs to edit the main interest through to notable ideas sections.


 * It now looks like this at the moment -

region         = Western Philosophy | era            = 20th-century philosophy | color          = #B0C4DE |

image_name     = Albert Camus.jpg | image_caption  = Albert Camus |

name            = Albert Camus | birth           = November 7, 1913 (Mondovi, Algeria) | death           = January 4, 1960 (Villeblevin, France) | school_tradition = Existentialism, Absurdism | main_interests  = | influences      = Søren Kierkegaard, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Franz Kafka | influenced      = | notable_ideas   = "The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth" |

Studies
Is it necessary to attempt translation of his education into the modern day BA/MA ??? This is not very usefull and misleading as the education system in colonial Algiers was not directly comparable to modern day anglo-american degrees!!

--Hurkummer 08:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

"His mother was of Spanish extraction."
This is not very professional to say. Does anyone know how his mother was Spanish? By this I mean I think the sentence should read something like "His mother was Spanish born in ____" or simply "His mother was Spanish." Perhaps also, "His mother was of Spanish descent."

George Bush
Someone might want to scribe regarding George Bush & Albert,...

The France angle is especially noteworthy.

< http://google.com/search?q=%22we+discussed+the+origins+of+existentialism%22+%22%22+%22%22+%22%22++george+bush++albert+camus++existential++stranger++fiction++truth++iraq++french+france++ >.

Hopiakuta 23:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please leave this out of the article. Piet | Talk 11:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment
This is really a great article. Indian Literati 16:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Algerian writer
Albert Camus is a Algerian-French writer, not a French writer as stated in the article.
 * he was born in Algeria, but at that time it was a French colony. He is thus considered a French writer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.113.100 (talk) 19:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

But there is a good point here. This article very much neglects the significance of Algeria in the life of Camus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.90.217.68 (talk) 00:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. This article barely reflects the significance of Algeria in Camus's life and work.  Very serious criticisms of Camus' position on Algerian independence have been made by writers as different as Edward W. Said and Conor Cruise O'Brien.  These criticisms ought to be given space in the article. I also think that Camus ought to be identified as an Algerian-French or Franco-Algerian writer, rather than as a French one, but I'm prepared to be flexible about that. Lexo (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No, no, no, and no. Camus was French born into a French territory. He simply wasn't born in metropolitan France. I'm getting sick of these regular lame attempts on the anglophone pages to nitpick the place of birth or ancestry of every French famous individual so as to somehow lessen their "frenchness". This is not only intellectually unethical, it is merely wrong. Camus was as French as they come. Being born in Algeria before the decolonization changes nothing to that. That Algeria played an important role in his life is undeniable. Just like Brittany plays an important role in mine. But that doesn't take away anything from my being French. In any case, the Algeria which Camus describes is not just the geographic country. It is the colonial territory more than any other aspect of Algeria which influenced his work. Camus was not "an Algerian-born Frenchman". He was "a Frenchman born in Algeria while it was a French colony". Deal with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.92.4 (talk) 20:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, this is English Wikipedia. What du you expect? Fairness? Hahaha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.54.85.110 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that if anyone wants to identify Camus as Algerian, they cite some (any!) sources indicating that Camus did so himself. He was born in a French territory and is well known for identifying himself as of French nationality, can the same be said of his Algerian background?  Unlikely, since Algeria was not generally seen as a separate national entity when he was growing up, but if you've got a citation, mention it.


 * Calling Camus Algerian, or Algerian-French, is like calling an 1800's Apache a US citizen because their territory eventually became a state. It's just not accurate.


 * For the record; I'm an American and find the French as irritating as anyone, but that doesn't mean I approve of bending historical facts around. The Cap&#39;n (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Professional Issues
Camus was really an philosopher? Some biographies states he quits his philosophy graduation in order to began his carrer as jornalist.

Picture?
Why is there no picture of Camus on the article? Here's a small one I found on another article:.


 * I agree, the lack of a photo seems a bit conspicuous. Google shows an estimated 12,000 related photos, is there are a reason for the omission? --Todeswalzer | Talk 02:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Some retard added some scribble drawing of him for some reason...


 * A bunch of wikipedia nutcases are going through en masse and removing non-cc images even though the existing images are of public figures and are covered under fair-use. This includes replacing press photos with awful camera phone images and, as in this case, TERRIBLE sketches of the person in question. These nutcases are lowering wikipedia's usefullness to pretty much everyone because of a bee in their bonnet (babies pun intended) towards CC content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.59.28.103 (talk • contribs).


 * The sketch is back, and holy hell is that terrible. Has anyone tried talking to the people who are doing this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.140.95 (talk • contribs).


 * The fact that they're not even bothering to enter into discussion about this makes them incredibly arrogant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.166.229.13 (talk • contribs).

Get someone who can DRAW at least.

They aren't going to go away, which means we really need to find what they've done and change their horrible camera phone pictures and awful sketches back to actual photos.

Picture Madness
To the group who is going through the Biographical pages and getting rid of good photos and replacing them with terrible camera pictures, sketches, or other such nonsense: STOP. You're sacrificing the quality of the articles in your quest to make everything perfectly compliant. This is absolutely the stupidest thing I've seen anyone do here in a while. STOP STOP STOP. Manfrin 11:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I call them Wikipedia-Nazis, and apparently they've struck again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.227.118.157 (talk) 02:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I agree and I'm not one of these "wikinazis". However, the sketch is still better than nothing. I restore it and hope you'd find a better one... cc, of course (and unfortunately)... thanks for your comprehension. Alaiche 20:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I really don't understand this. Who keeps replacing the photo, and why? That photo worked just fine; and this sketch is just absolutely ridiculous -- in fact, it is entirely absurd. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 23:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * After posting my previous comment, I went through the rest of the comments about this nonsense and decided to put the original photo back myself, as it seems there really is no serious reason for removing it from the page and replacing it with that infamous sketch -- as one person mentioned above, the people involved in this nonsense don't even bother to post comments on this discussion page explaining themselves. So, from this, I would conclude that they aren't even "wikinazis" but petty vandals. I went through this page's history for the past month, hoping to find a pattern; but, alas, there was none -- except that the edits were all done annonyously through different IP addresses, so I would suspect whoever is doing this (probably one or two people) are doing so through public internet access. I'll delete the sketch from Wikipedia and hope that that at least makes it more difficult for them. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 00:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is really just ridiculous that people keep changing back to the sketch without even a single comment on this page. I've reverted and semiprotected the page until we can figure out a way around this nonsense. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 20:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ad Todeswaltzer: Why do you say: "the people involved in this nonsense don't even bother to post comments on this discussion page explaining themselves". It's not one group who does everything. There are too diffrent "people". One is erasing the photo maybe from some "metareasons" (licence etc.) and another one (like me) want to place into this article some cc image (because evidently it's not possible for some reasons - which I don't understand - to put there the photo). To see my reasons, just look on my comment few lines above. What is essential, it's that I did not replace the photo by the sketch. There was no photo before because someone just erased it (because of its licence), do you understand? The only thing I say it's that the sketch is better than nothing! By deleting the sketch you just make the same nonsense like they do. (when you said "I'll delete the sketch from Wikipedia and hope that that at least makes it more difficult for them.") So keep the sketch there please if they erase the photo again or draw a better one (if you are such a art guru), unless we find another cc image. I hope it was clear... 194.108.188.10 18:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC) (fr:Utilisateur:Alaiche)


 * The Library of Congress is your one-stop shop for quality public domain material ˉˉanetode╦╩ 02:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the comments; they are much appreciated and it is unfortunate that no one besides you would take the time to explain their position sooner or more clearly. In absence of such explanations, the repeated removal of the photo appears to be petty vandalism -- hence my (and others') reversions to the photo. One point that I would like you to clear up, however: it seems that you're overlooking the fact that the image that was on the page counts as fair use. Furthermore, it looks as though there is widespread agreement that the photo is infinitely better than the sketch. What, then, is your issue with the photo being on this page? -- Todeswalzer | Talk 22:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Its pretty clear from the history and the responses above that Alaiche added the drawing in good faith some time ago when there was no image at all - replacing it again when there was no image to speak of in good faith. These kinds of positive acts are what keeps wikipedia alive. The various negative comments surrounding this act of good faith are what makes wikipedia stink. --Mrmusichead 03:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mrmusichead, I think you are being unfair to the people who have been discussing the photo/sketch issue here -- and who have been doing so in good faith as well. As I pointed out above, no real explanation had been given as to why the sketch was continually replacing the photo (note that this was after a suitable photo was found) and so, as I also pointed out above, it appeared to be a case of ongoing vandalism. In this light, the actions taken by a number of people on this page were appropriate and their anger understandable. Your comments don't seem to take this into consideration and I don't find them terribly constructive. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 17:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is hilarious that some dimwits are generating their own illustrations! Here is a link to the sketch, plus some other hilarious borderline-Aspergers illustrating. --Iacobus 00:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the pronunciation of his name be 'kamy' in the IPA? 'kamu' would be Camou or Camous in FrenchRothorpe 00:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Meaning and the Absurd
I have a couple points of contention with the article, and perhaps someone can defend it before any revisions are contemplated. First, the article's summary on the Absurd states, "If we accept that life has no meaning and therefore no value, should we kill ourselves?" This is strictly incorrect; in his essay, Camus does not assert that life has no meaning, simply that reason cannot lead us to the meaning. We ask the universe for meaning, but it responds only with indifference. We ask the universe for values; it offers us only facts.

Also, in this section it states that "Meursault, the Absurdist hero of L'Étranger, is a murderer who is executed for his crime." However, Mersault is not executed in The Stranger. In fact, near the end, the priest with whom he has his final encounter suggests that his appeal is likely to succeed.


 * As for your first point, the claim that Camus saw life as without meaning is quite "strictly incorrect" -- but in a broader, more inclusive sense, I believe it adequately gets the message across to people who are unfamiliar with Camus. In every practical sense, Camus sees life as having no inherent meaning -- as opposed to no meaning whatever -- and his writing advocates that we need to find meaning for ourselves instead of expecting an uncaring universe to bestow it upon us.


 * As for your second point, I don't understand this interpretation. When I read the novel, it seemed quite obvious to me that Meursault will be executed. Even if the story itself didn't lead up to this inevitability, philosophically, he must be executed if we are to view him as accepting responsibility for his own existence. And in any event, he rejects the preacher most violently, along with any "salvation" he might offer. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 04:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You're completely missing the point. Mersault isn't accepting responsibility for his own existence. He is simply recognizing the absurdity of his situation and beginning to how he is able to exist in it. In a sense, he is really indifferent to whether he lives or dies by the end of the book. The irony is that Mersault has resigned himself to the fact that he is going to die when, in fact, his appeal might succeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.174.17 (talk) 03:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Was Camus an atheist or an agnostic?
Some say Camus had been an atheist, some say he had been an agnostic. What was he? Does anybody know? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.196.226.86 (talk) 03:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC).


 * It's really hard to tell, although to be safe I would lean towards the agnostic side. It seems like he had strong reservations about proclaiming a God, or at least if Camus were to ever meet God, I think that God would be hard pressed to answer some of the questions Camus has lined up for him! c.f. The Plague for a few on human suffering. It would perhaps be best to look for an answer in interviews rather than in his literature. Qzxtvbzr 14:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. In The Fall Jean-Baptiste goes as far as to ridicule "Coffee House Atheists," so I don't think you can really look at his fictional work for answers to that question. I believe many philosophy professors refer to the likes of Camus as "Meditative Atheists." That is to say that while they don't believe in God, they don't mind looking at things from religious perspectives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.53.239.37 (talk) 17:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

I don't have the quote handy but I've read and re-read many times Camus' "Resistance, Rebellion, and Death" and he clearly states in one paragraph that he is an agnostic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

You can actually find agnosticism in much of his work. He often implies that a God could very well exist, but humans will never understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.174.17 (talk) 03:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not a registered user and this article is protected. Could someone please add Camus to the category of French agnostics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.166.29 (talk) 03:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Cultural Influences
I have gone over the cultural influences section and changed it from a list to a writeup format, it looks more like an encyclopedic entry, but are all the references notable? I think maybe the songs should be limited to singles or significant mentions or something along those lines, as I don't think this article should list each and every song that mentions Camus or has lyrics that contain themes or words related to his writings. What do you think? darkskyz 14:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

in order to understand whether Camus is an atheist or an agnostic, one must read his last to novels( the fall, exile and kingdom). i dont prefer to call him an atheist or an agnostic. there is something in that works which some commentators called "repentance." i have read a book affirming that Camus' The Fall "seems to epitomize a complete reversal in Camus' direction of thought." i prefer not to conclude at this moment. for further reading, please read the book "Existentialism: WITH OR WITHOUT GOD" written by Francis j. Lescoe. anyhow, i am writting a thesis at the moment about stressing the same problem as this one. however, my my inquiry is about the posibility of interpreting Camus as a theist. is it possible? please i need your advise and essential insights. visit me at carlojapc@yahoo.com. thank you... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.235.203 (talk) 16:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested article restructuring
I suggest restructuring the article into the following sections:
 * Personal Life - including info on his birth, family, and death.
 * Political Career - including all the info on his membership in various political organizations and political writings.
 * Literary Career - including info on his various publications.
 * Philosophical views - including info on his views on matters such as the absurd, totalitarianism, the death penalty etc.
 * Complete Bibliography - no reason naming the section selected bibliography if it is a complete one... If this is too long, maybe split into a separate article, but it seems to me like this isn't too long.
 * Cultural Influences - only those of notable significance, not every song mentioning something that sounds like absurd.
 * Further Reading
 * External Links

Any suggestions?

P.S. This talk page should also be cleaned up, preferably by refactoring.

darkskyz 14:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. I've changed the order according to his impact on the fields and offered some subheadings.
 * Personal Life
 * Early Years
 * The War (new section)
 * Football (move section Camus and Football here, though I don't know that it warrants a full heading)
 * Death (move section Albert Camus' Death)
 * Literary Career - including info on his various publications.
 * Philosophical views - including info on his views on matters such as the absurd, totalitarianism, the death penalty etc. (move sections on the summary of Absurdism, Camus' Ideas on the Absurd, and Opposition to Totalitarianism here)
 * Politics (remove term 'career' as it suggests he was a politician)
 * The Revolutionary Union Movement and the European Movement
 * Additional (need to expand this section, or combine previous subheading on the Rev. Union into a more general section on his political involvement)
 * Complete Bibliography
 * Cultural Influences
 * Film
 * Music
 * Further Reading
 * References
 * External Links

The sections "Camus and Orwell" and "Camus and Solidarity" should be removed or incorporated into the literary career section. Laura schnak (talk) 19:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring seems warranted. In the meantime, may I suggest rewriting the 'Ideas on the Absurd' section? I added some citations, but the writing in that section still lacks precision and direction. E.g. "Camus presents the reader with dualisms such as happiness and sadness, dark and light, life and death, etc." is 1) true of many, many authors, 2) isn't especially true of Camus, and 3) doesn't particularly support anything which occurs later in this section. Also, Camus tends to use the word "contradiction" rather than "dualism." Cjaywork (talk) 02:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Influences and Influenced
I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields. I am in favor of doing away with them. Please join the discussion there. RJC Talk 14:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sartre
According to the page "it was there that" Camus and Sartre met." I take "there" to mean at Combat, Camus' resistance newsletter. According to the book "Camus and Sartre" by Ronald Aronson, these two met at Sartre's play "The Flies" in '43. Not sure if they collaborated previously or afterwards in Combat or whether the book is altogether incorrect. Anyone mind clarifying/correcting? Neutralitybias 04:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The Olivier Todd biography agrees: "...he had met [Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir] at a dress rehearsal of Sartre's play The Flies in June 1943." Actually, the entire beginning of the 'Literary Career' section is misleading, it suggests that Camus met Sartre after the war, and after he resigned from Combat. I agree with a previous commenter that the whole article could be rewritten and reformatted. Laura schnak (talk) 18:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the disagreement between Satre and Camus is framed in terms of the opposition of Camus to totalitarianism. This is a gross oversimplification. Their differences were much more complex. For example, Camus never accepted Algerian independence, Sartre argued passionately in favor of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.90.217.68 (talk) 00:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Michael Novak?
I'm not sure who this guy is, or why he's listed in the 'influenced' section, but no mention of Camus is made on his page, and I found no citation that could provide any evidence for this insert. Further, I can't even understand how it makes sense that a Catholic advocate of Capitalism could be influenced significantly by Camus - a man who, arguably, was against both of these things. Provisionally, I'm removing this. But if anyone can find any evidence that it shouldn't be, please replace it, but alphabetise it, like the rest. This guy, at best, shouldn't be listed above Sartre, if you don't.--Soonlaypale 14:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Novak is a contemporary American philosopher. Parkwells (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Speeches
What's wrong with adding a "Speeches" section and mentioning the "Address at the Nobel Academy of Stockholm 1957"? --Richard 17:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Enlightenment
I think Camus was influenced greatly by the thinkers and philosophes of the Enlightenment. What do you think? -68.224.117.152 (talk) 23:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Um.... Who in the twentieth century wasn't? -- Todeswalzer | Talk 20:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sarah Palin?  The Cap&#39;n (talk) 22:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

and Obama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.26.167 (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Camus and Metaphysics
Can, possibly, anyone answer me why the scholars of Wikipedia have totally deleted any mention in the book Christian Metaphysics and Neoplatonism by Albert Camus, a book which has been in circulation from this February in translation of Ronald D. Srigley? Can someone tell me why Wikipedia deletes the resume of the text of Camus that I wrote, since I have the book, and also has deleted even the title of it??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.90.156 (talk) 09:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Plagirism
I wanted to point out that large sections of this article were taken from the website http://www.biblio.com/authors/641/Albert_Camus_Biography.html --Stronghold1245 —Preceding comment was added at 14:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Corrections/proofreading
Albert Camus founded in 1949 the Group for International Liaisons in the Revolutionary Union Movement, according to the book Albert Camus, une vie BY Olivier Todd, a group opposed to the atheist and communistic tendencies of the surrealistic movement of André Breton. (Books are stated to be 'by' an author in English, not 'of' - as in French.)
 * Got it. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

In the block of data under Camus's photograph, he is listed as having been born in Dréan, Algeria. In the entry under "Early Years" he is listed as having been born in Mondovi, Algeria. Even if both might be correct (such as a town and a region), this is confusing to readers and should be resolved. Dick Kimball (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Camus and Orwell
It says The State of Seige "was written together with the novel The Plague and the essay The Rebel. It is the work which—according to Camus himself—represents him best and is a response to George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four." This play was written and performed before Nineteen Eighty Four was published. The novel and essay were published before Orwell's work as well. The article is a bit misleading. 98.221.133.96 (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the whole Camus and Orwell section is confusing and needs to be re written or something. Paulish (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole section needs to be deleted. Why would there be an analysis of Orwell in an entry about Camus, especially one that is dependent on the papers of some insignificant critic?  Talk about absurd...74.250.183.94 (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

50th Anniversary of Camus' Death...
...somewhere in my travels, i read that Camus died instantly of a broken neck in the car crash which killed him and someone noted that the dashboard clock was broken at the time of the crash, which presumably recorded his exact time of death...anyone have this interesting info to add to the article?  here's a picture of the type of car (i have seen the actual crashed car also, but can't seem to find that now, either... http://s4-us2.ixquick.nl/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&cat=pics&c=pf&q=camus+crash+car&h=199&w=360&th=91&tw=165&fn=c127-vin.jpg&fs=16%20k&el=bing_pics&tu=http:%2F%2Fimages1-us2.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsf%3Ff%3Dd079c44f8d815ef8c35cbe02ac5de4d3.jpg%26anticache%3D266951&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fwww.californiaclassix.com%2Farchive%2F61_Facel_Vega_c127.html&rid=LILMQMQOLSSQ&oiu=http:%2F%2Fwww.californiaclassix.com%2Fimages%2Fc127-vin.jpg

monument...http://s4-us2.ixquick.nl/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&cat=pics&c=pf&q=camus+car+crash&h=600&w=750&th=132&tw=165&fn=750px-Camus_Monument_in_Villeblevin_France_17-august-2003.4.JPG&fs=94 k&el=bing_pics_2&tu=http:%2F%2Fimages3-us2.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsf%3Ff%3D2e824fce80b66989cd4e50fce25e3622.jpg%26anticache%3D67190&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FImage:Camus_Monument_in_Villeblevin_France_17-august-2003.4.JPG&rid=LCLMQMQOLRRT&oiu=http:%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2e%2FCamus_Monument_in_Villeblevin_France_17-august-2003.4.JPG%2F750px-Camus_Monument_in_Villeblevin_France_17-august-2003.4.JPG  grave...http://farm1.static.flickr.com/94/230155968_8bd2e62fe9.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/media/iot_albertcamus.jpg http://s4-us2.ixquick.nl/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&cat=pics&c=pf&q=camus+car+crash&h=227&w=325&th=115&tw=165&fn=camus-home-grave.jpg&fs=30 k&el=bing_pics&tu=http:%2F%2Fimages4-us2.ixquick.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsf%3Ff%3D6cb4a56b1ac1e82f0bbe865e93d80cc7.jpg%26anticache%3D26326&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fphilosophy.lander.edu%2Fintro%2Fintrobook2.1%2Fx2981.html&rid=LELMQMQOMMLR&oiu=http:%2F%2Fphilosophy.lander.edu%2Fintro%2Fintrobook2.1%2Fimages1%2Fcamus-home-grave.jpg

the intersection...http://www.creativereview.co.uk/images/uploads/2009/09/albertcamusjan4th_0.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Revolutionary Union Movement and the European Union
I was doing some searches based on this article, and it seems the section "Revolutionary Union Movement and the European Union" is plagiarized from page 1945 of The plague by Albert Camus, a section of the book with the same title. --151.201.146.118 (talk) 12:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Requiem pour une nonne
The article says, "Requiem for a Nun (Requiem pour une nonne, adapted from William Faulkner's novel by the same name) (1956)" - Can the date be correct? On Oct. 20, 1955 (cf. http://www.chroniknet.de/daly_de.0.html?year=1955&month=10 )  (according to other sources  even  a little earlier on Oct. 9) the Zurich Schaupielhaus staged the play's world première in a German translation. But was this a translation of Camus' dramatization? Who might have info? --Marschner (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Cultural influences
I suggest we cut the "Cultural influences" section. It is mostly a list of songs inspired by Camus. Every famous artist has hundreds of people who are inspired by their work. The list is not comprehensive or notable, in my view. WP:TRIV says "Trivia sections should be avoided." Thanks Spanglej (talk) 03:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Or the list should be diversified. Graham 87 13:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Camus is one of the major writers of the 2Oth Century. He influenced everyone. The list could not be comprehensive, in my view. Spanglej (talk) 02:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Place(s) of residence
Perhaps I did not read the article closely enough, but it did not seem clear to me where he was living, say, after the War. Back to Algeria? Continental France? Varlaam (talk) 05:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Obscure sentence
"In 1947–48 he founded the Revolutionary Union Movement (Groupes de liaison internationale – GLI) a trade union movement in the context of revolutionary syndicalism (Syndicalisme révolutionnaire). According to Olivier Todd, in his biography, Albert Camus, une vie, it was a group opposed to some tendencies of the Surrealist movement of André Breton."

This suggests that Groupes de liaison internationale is a translation of "Revolutionary Union Movement", which of course it isn't. What was the actual name of this group? Secondly, why would a trade union movement have a position on the surrealist tendencies of André Breton? Even in France, this seems unlikely. This needs to be explained. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 06:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

He witnessed the execution of Gabriel Péri?
The idea that Camus witnessed the death of Péri (in Fort Mont-Valérien?) requires a citation. Mark Orme, in The Development of Albert Camus's Concern for Social and Political Justice writes that, "one should treat with caution Camus's own recollection that he joined forces with the Resistance movement upon reading, in Lyons, of the death of the influential communist leader Gabriel Peri...". (p. 238) This seems an altogether more likely scenario to me. Péri is not mentioned in the French article about Camus. William Avery (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Diff showing insertion at 20:35, 4 December 2004 . William Avery (talk) 12:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * "C'était un matin, à Lyon, et je lisais dans le journal l'exécution de Gabriel Péri." [Albert Camus, Actuelles I. Écrits politiques (VIII. Deux Réponses à Emmanuel d'Astier de la Vigerie)] William Avery (talk) 19:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Camus and Pacifism
Does anyone know of sources supporting the assertion that Camus was a pacifist? Wnjr (talk) 15:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Group for International Liaisons
Why is the reference to the "Group for International Liaisons" considered important enough to be in the summary section of this article, but not mentioned again anywhere else? Also, it makes it appear as if he's denouncing capitalism and communism, when he's actually denouncing an "idolatry of technology" in both the USA and USSR (source for this is the same source used in the article). Unsure if it's important enough to include why it's stripped of context. MC152 (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

edit conflict
I provided a good source about having affairs with anarchism. Do you prefer to use blogs instead of Peter Marshall?

I also added simple facts about his relations with socialist party in 1953. His view about USSR in 1944. And his view about Algeria based in anarchist historian Peter Marshall and a scientific paper.

what is the problem again? Why i ve been reverted? I will go to ani if this is not explained.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 04:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Pls stop the edit warring. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

So you deleted simple facts based on peter Marshall with this excuse. As you wish. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Camus as anarchist(solved)
Can someone add something about Camus as an anarchist? orelse i hope we wont add something without sources.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=camus+anarchism --Galassi (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * not a single rs. please find something first and then add it in the article. Thank you.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a plethora.--Galassi (talk) 14:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * maybe there is, but until now you bring nothing. You just copy and paste a book with the last... page as a reference. Totally fake sources.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:10, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I notice, you add sources like this 1|https://avtonom.org/people/alber-kamyu its totally not a RS.
 * Galassi You have put this book Arendt_Camus_and_modern_rebellion, and you write page 320...i.e the last page of this book (320/320)! Can you bring something from this book? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Have a look here. Cinadon36 (talk) 04:37, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * More philosophical review of his work. also Martin Heidegger a prominent NAZI member is mentioned as his work was affiliated with anarchism as Camus .Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * A philosophical review that claims that CAmus philosophy was existential anarchism. So, what is your sources claiming that he wasn't? Cinadon36 (talk) 05:31, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that his work as also the work of the NAZI supporter was as anarchist philosophy not as a person.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 05:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you attempting to disqualify a published peer reviewed article because you think it contains a fallacy?Anyway where is your source that Camus wasnt an anarchist? Cinadon36 (talk) 06:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Or here: Peter Marshall Demanding the impossible p 445 "The libertarian atmosphere affected Albert Camus who associated with French and Spanish anarchists and syndicalists, and studied anarchist history and philosophY. Although he was critical of Stirner and Bakunin in his L 'Homme revolte (195 1), he was even more critical of authoritarian communism. The work shows that he was moving towards a form of anarcho-syndicalism". Cinadon36 (talk) 04:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * So not an anarchist. He was moving not moved. Totally synthesis until now based in a libcom article.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 04:57, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No, he was within anarchism and moving towards a/syndicalism. Cinadon36 (talk) 05:31, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I fear that you don't understand what your source suggests. Please read more carefully. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 05:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Dont worry, it is pretty clear that the source given does validate the article's sentence. On the other hand you have provided no other source but your opinion. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No need to provide anything. Your problem to prove that he was an anarchist, not mine that he wasnt. Science goes this way not the opposite. Clear synthesis. I fear not the first time. But, i wont insist, i will wait other users to say their opinionsΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:21, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the article does not claim that Camus was an anarchist, but "became associated with the French anarchist movement" Here is another article that deals with this issue: Albert Camus and the Anarchist Alternative Peter Dunwoodie Related information1 Goldsmiths' College, University of London https://doi.org/10.3828/AJFS.30.1.84. There 's also another interesting article ( Dadoun, R. (1986) Albert Camus: Fondations d’anarchie in J. Guérin (ed.) Camus et la politique, pp. 257–67.) but I can not spot it on the web. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Concerning this edit by Αντικαθεστωτικός, there is no consensus to remove him from that list. BBC lists him as an anarchist, his philosophy has been categorized as existential anarchism, so I do not see any reason for [ this edit. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. Was he an anarchist or not? If he was please provide some sources with such claim. BBC category is NOT a RS. Perhaps you should read Reliable sources. I am thinking that it is a try to present him like an anarchist where there is none source about his life say so. Its synthesis again, i fear.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:20, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you should read Reliable sources, here is an interesting quote: "Most newspapers also reprint items from news agencies such as BBC News, Reuters, Interfax, Agence France-Presse, United Press International or the Associated Press, which are responsible for accuracy." As for sources portraying him as an anarchist, there are plenty of them, they have been presented already. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * so your main argument that he was an anarchist is just a category of BBC? I fear this is totally wrong. Also, i haven't see any other source about this claim. Maybe i haven't look well. Please, tell me which citations do you consider that prove that he was an anarchist? tell me please just the numbers (p.e 3&4). I Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 'Albert Camus and the Anarchist Alternative PETER DUNWOODIE: in this article, the writer claims that Camus was close to anarchism, but NOT an anarchist. So i fear that this claim, from this source is SYNTHESIS. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:40, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Can you provide us with the exact quotation saying that he was NOT an anarchist? Definitely, not the case of Synthesis. Are you certain that you are aware of the meaning of the term? Cinadon36 (talk) 17:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It's your duty to provide something that proves Camus was an anarchist, not mine. Until now you brung only a ...category for BBC. Nothing. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Nope, I brought much more. And I can not see why you do not accept BBC as a RS. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:13, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah you brought a paper about his work, and the other user brought libcom and autonomoi(something). It is very clear that here there is a try to present him as an anarchist with total zero RS. The funny thing is that you ask from me to provide sources that he wasn't anarchist cause you can't find anything that proves him as an anarchist. Please read Marshall With Albert Camus, the links with anarchism and the anarchist movement are much closer. So, even the anarchist Marshall claims he was close to anarchism, BUT not an anarchist. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I wouldnt call peer reviewed articles or BBC as "zero RS". I asked for you to back your claim the writer claims that Camus was close to anarchism, but NOT an anarchist. Marshall is not saying he was NOT an anarchist. That is your conclusion. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Finally, cinadon36 brought a RS. Case solved for me. He is considered as anarchist for some people, so its ok.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

See also section
Can anyone fix "see also" section? Cinadon36 (talk) 18:25, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Camus as socialist and supporter of Colonial France

 * But rather than developing his anarcho-syndicalist sympathies, Camus soon veered in the opposite direction. In the 1955 elections, he supported the campaign of Mendel-France and called for a French Labour Party.


 * Camus by extension chose his tribe, his nation and his race. As a result, he remained faithful to his roots, a left-wing colonialist

If not enough, please ask for more. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Instead of searching for labels, we should strive to explain his political (and philosophical) thought based on RSs discussing Camus. Cinadon36 (talk) 20:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

libertarian socialist or anarcho-syndicalist
For Camus, this claim is ultimately grounded in human nature itself, which, among other things, is characterized by a strong impulse toward both spontaneity and creativity, and his commitment to a radically democratic (“bottom up”) form of political organization, as manifested in revolutionary trade-unionism or the Paris Commune of 1871, is, arguably, most in keeping with this fundamental condition of human flourishing. Politically, therefore, whether in 1944 or 1954, Camus is best understood as a libertarian socialist or, more exactly, an anarcho-syndicalist (anarcho-syndicalism being the theory that politics should begin with voluntary associations of cooperative, labor-based groups rather than the state).


 * p.185Cinadon36 (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Wonderful source. That kind of stuff i was searching from the beginning. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

But, now i saw the years. Peter Marshall says that he had relations in Socialist Party and he was a Socialist since 1953. Do you wish to bring more facts about this? So what now? Is Peter Marshall a RS and we should include his view? I think this is a big confict. Also we must add something about his support for a France occupied Algeria. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

I have to mention that maybe it was common in France to be an anarcho-syndicalist and also a supporter of Colonial France as Camus was. So maybe David Sherman has right -i am not sure- or maybe Peter Marshall has right and since 1950 he became an Socialist. In any way i don't know, but i think we must present all the views of RS, and not only those that mention that he was an anarchist. I hope you will agree. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Ι 'd suggest we stick to Sherman as his work is on Camus. Marshall, on the other hand, examines the history of anarchism from day one to the end of the 20th century. Cinadon36 (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't worry i have a lot of good stuff about this topic. Please, give me some time to gather my sources about the socialist views of Camus (as Marshall suggests also). Thank you. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 23:59, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

CLOP
Text at the article: When Camus was asked in the 1950s by an alumnus sports magazine for a few words regarding his time with the RUA, his response included the following: "After many years during which I saw many things, what I know most surely about morality and the duty of man I owe to sport and learned it in the RUA." Camus was referring to a sort of simplistic morality he wrote about in his early essays, the principle of sticking up for your friends, of valuing bravery and fair-play. Camus's belief was that political and religious authorities try to confuse us with over-complicated moral systems to make things appear more complex than they really are, potentially to serve their own needs. Source

Very Well said, but it is a CLOP violation. Moreover, I am not very certain whether Camus-Society.Com is RS. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:26, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Where was he during the occupation of France?
Any idea?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Paris mostly, he was active at the underground resistance movement as an editor at newspaper Combat. See article. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:01, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Some sources suggest that he was at Combat since 1944(~liberation of France), some others since 1943. I am really confusedΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:23, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think these kind of problems are to be expected when dealing with clandestine organisations. The border between a friend and a member of such organisations is somewhat vague, sometimes, I guess... Cinadon36 18:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

May 2019
It is presented and it is not true that Camus was related to anarchism during 1937-1944 and 1953- death.

I provided sources that proves that he was ~popular front pioneer during 1937-1944 and source that he was a socialist in his late life. But i am reverted for some reasons.

Please provide some sources that proves that Camus was indeed related to anarchism for these periods.

Also, please let Peter Marshall (historian) view to add it in the article.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

unsourced material-1
This article claims: "He again allied with the anarchists in 1956, first in support of the workers' uprising in Poznań, Poland, and then later with the Hungarian Revolution'"

but peter Marshall for the same period says that he was related to socialist party and he: He had reached the classic liberal defence of parliamentary democracy."

so who has right here? unsourced material or Peter Marshall?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Why dont you place a tag ie unsourced next to it? As for Marshall, why don't you mention title, year, publisher and page? Cinadon36 (talk) 10:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think i have already done this, but maybe i did something wrong. ok i will try again. Please check if i something wrong and revert me but please with an explanation not blind revertΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:03, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Add  at the end of the sentence. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

material 2
There is a claim into this article ", which got him into trouble with his Communist party comrades, who in 1937 denounced him as a Trotskyite and expelled him from the party. Camus then became associated with the French anarchist movement."

Please give me a RS about this claim. Cause Peter Marshall~ 1937-1944~suggests that during this period he was close to popular front politics.

Just tell me the numbers of the citations. p.e :BBC link was nothing about this, unfortunately.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

There are four refs following that particular sentence. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:01, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't understand russian. do you? please if you are kind translate this page so i can understand.Also the second ref hasn't a page. Please tell me the page. The other 2 refs I deleted them, please check if i did something wrong. But i want an explanation . thanx in advance.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


 * No I do not. But what are you implying? Russian sources are not allowed? Cinadon36 (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No of course not. I will ask User:Galassi to translate if he would like.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:23, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Verbatim: "...My deeply felt anarchism etc".--Galassi (talk) 19:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What is written about Camus+anarchism during the years 1937-1944?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I see only the year 1946. What is written in this book about the relationship of Camus and anarchism since 1937-1944? Should i ask someone else? I fear that maybe is a violation of W.K policy and there is nothing about this. Also Galassi can you write the correct page of the other source? Thank you in advance.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello, . This book in Russian (second ref) just says that "he was communist and anarchist at the same time". This book is completely absent from the study of the views and political activities of Camus.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:14, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you a lot Nicoljaus, so i fear that Galassi added a lot of false citations just to revert my edits. I am sure that he didn't do it in purpose. I will delete them. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Advice: do not revert/delete anything unless you are sure it is false info. Fear/suspicion is not enough. Cinadon36 (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it, i won't remove the last citation. I look forward Galassi to bring the correct page. Thank Cinadon36. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Happy to help.Cinadon36 (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, the full sentence from Camus' own notebooks "...Возможно также, что это недоверие противостоит моему глубинному анархизму, и в этом его польза." from http://www.you-books.com/book/A-Kamyu/Zapisnye-Knizhki . Is that false info?--Galassi (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not sure that from this phrase it can be concluded about Camus' political position. Further on the same link: "В глубине моей души – анархия, ужасный хаос." (In the depths of my soul - anarchy, terrible chaos.) It seems that Camus considers this "anarchism in the depths of the soul" not political views, but some mental instability with which he should fight. Well and, among other things, this is just the primary source. Let them be interpreted by experts.--Nicoljaus (talk) 21:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Until something is 100% sure, my opinion is that such material we can't use it. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

page needed, is it xiv?
Concerning this edit, does anyone have access to Isaac's book? Seems to me that xiv indicates a page within the book. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Roman numerals usually denote pages in the intro. I would say the book has 320 pages, and 14 pages of the intro.--Nicoljaus (talk) 07:55, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, we would have to cite intro using roman numerals. Unfortunately, there's no preview at google-books. Cinadon36 (talk) 08:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Numbers just indicate the number of pages: It has xiv (=14) pp intro plus 320 pp. Page xiv is blank! I find nothing in the book to directly support the sentence Camus then became associated with the French anarchist movement. There are many comments like "[Arendt and Camus] ... retained many left-wing commitments, especially an affinity with anarchist politics" (p 14), "Arendt and Camus are best thought of as democrats of an anarchist stripe" (p 19), "a libertarian, anarchist version of democratic politics" (p 139), "radical democratic politics with a marked anarchist strain" (p 140), "anarchist and syndicalist politics inspired their political thinking" (p 149), "Camus's Notebooks make clear that this Mediterranean anarchist spirit, along with its Russian cousin, is a chief source of inspiration" (p 149) and more of the same. Not one single word about actual association with any movement, only about inspiration. --T*U (talk) 10:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I 'll leave the removed sentence here, in case anyone finds a source on this issue : Camus then became associated with the French anarchist movement. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Here: "Camus would later be associated with the French anarchist movement." It's from Biography.com. I won't add it back coz biography.com doesnt look like RS to me. If it is a valid sentence, I 'll surely find info elsewhere.Cinadon36 18:36, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We agreed that he was associated with anarchists and he was anarchist. Case solved. The remaining question is when?. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:28, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


 * As I can tell from Sherman 2009, chapt. Realpolitik, Camus has been a libertarian socialist from WWII to his death- maybe even earlier. Camus is not the typical kind of anarchist. Most of us, assume that anarchists do not vote and are not engaged with political parties. This stereotype was formulated in the late 19th century while Marx and Bakunin were fighting each other in the First International. It is quite evident though, that not all anarchist abstain from voting or supporting political parties. Electoral abstentionism is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition to be an anarchist. (Surely, abstentionism is extremely common among anarchists) Cinadon36 11:05, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

"Philosophy professor at the University of Montana David Sherman"
I think "Philosophy professor David Sherman" is sufficient. Merely stating the name is not enough, while stating the workplace seems too long.Cinadon<b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 18:24, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 December 2019
1st paragraph, last sentence of "Young Camus", current version:

"Camus, was a womanizer throughout his life."

Comma is unnecessary. PB57 (talk) 23:12, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Well spotted. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 07:57, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ❌ this page is no longer protected, you may edit it directly. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:09, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

✅ Jonpatterns (talk) 21:00, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

"Camus tried to flee"
At intro: "Camus tried to flee"--> there is no citation because I feel there is no need for it. Intro summarizes the main body of the text. See first sentences of section "World War II, Resistance and Combat".<b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

"at Combat, an outlawed"
Here also, Combat was banned from the Nazis as it was part of the resistance. Maybe "outlawed" is not the best word available? "Banned" would be better?<b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Citation style
Are we really wedded to the current citation style? It's not the usual on wikipedia, although the actual rule is that anything understandable is acceptable and this does meet that, kinda. But I have only ever seen it before in college papers, and never for a mainstream news publication such as the Guardian. I am not prepared to change it at the moment, or argue about it, again for the moment, but it does strike me as very extremely Not Ideal, and I am curious as to where it comes from. Elinruby (talk) 22:56, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Give me some time and I ll answer your very interesting questions.<b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 18:54, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I like shortened footnotes. Especially when a source is used many times- but different page, this kind of footnote is very handy. I find that it is easier to edit an article when shortened footnotes are in use. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

tuberculosis
editorial quibble: "Because it is a transmitted disease, he moved out of his home and stayed with his uncle Gustave Acault, a butcher, who influenced the young Camus." I have not changed anything here at the moment since I am don't know the details necessary to fix this, but something should preferably be done about this sentence. The tuberculosis is probably important. It should be mentioned, but the actual reason for the move should be better explained. Perhaps the uncle lived in a more rural and healthful location? I assume the reason he didn't go to a sanitarium was financial. A quibble, but one which should be addressed if someone knows the answer. Elinruby (talk) 23:10, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * the link between transmission and moving in with a butcher is unclear
 * "influenced" is very vague


 * source: "To avoid infecting his brother, with whom he had to share a bed, Camus began to live at the home of his aunt and uncle, Antoinette and Gustave Acault." Pls fix it as you wish. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)


 * On "influenced", source: "As owners of a butcher shop, the Acaults were comparatively well off, and Gustave was an intellectual of sorts, engaging his nephew in long conversations about literature and politics. The Acaults showed Camus that life contained possibilities that transcended the hardscrabble existence that he had known, which had produced in him a fatalistic indifference that he never completely left behind". Pls apply any fix you feel it is appropriate. Maybe delete the sentence, it is not very important, to be honest. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

(Revolutionary Union Movement),
I removed this text from behind Groupes de liason internationale, since its placement indicated a translation, which it is not, at least not literally. I am unable to assess what should be done about this. Is there an english-language affiliated organization by that name? If it is intended as a description, it should probably be cited, and lower case. Leaving here as a question for now. Elinruby (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, cool. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 22:51, 28 December 2019 (UTC)