Talk:Albert Einstein/Archive 1

Brownian motion
Does anyone besides me think that Einsteins observation that the brownian motion of pollen in water, considered the first real proof of the molecular theory of matter, is worth mentioning? --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)

What exactly did he observe? Wasn't the Brownian motion known already? --AxelBoldt (Prior to October 9, 2001)

Yes. The first well-known publications about it were by a botanist called Brown in the early 19th century. But no-one had a clue why it happened. Einstein's theory of it, backed up by actual mathematics, completely solved the mystery. It also convinced many more conservative scientists that atoms and molecules exist, something they had previously been reluctant to accept, especially in Germany. (Others below have partially answered your question, but i thought not clearly enough.) -- Geronimo Jones (Prior to 15:51, February 25, 2002 (UTC))

IIRC, it was Einstiens observation that the pollen in a glass of water underwent brownian motion that was consider the proof. I'll post more about it after I double check. --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * See Brownian motion! -- User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)

It is critically important. It was one of the most-often cited papers of Einstein's in the early part of his career. --RjLesch (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * He also got the Nobel Prize for it, didn't he? User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)


 * He got his Nobel for the photoelectric effect. JDR

Yes, I just checked my source today, and it says that Einstein observed the chaotic motion of pollen in water, and surmised that this was do to the chaotic motion of molecules that caused it. After lab experiments verified his observation, even the staunches detractors of the existance of molecules and atoms admitted their existance. Before then, atoms/molecules were regarded as a useful construct with no concrete evidence behind them. Einstein provided that evidence. --BlackGriffen (Prior to 14:55 October 9, 2001 (UTC))


 * Sorry, it was not Einstein, but was Brown that observed it. Einstein explained it using kinetic theory. This made Brownian motion in retrospect into a justification for atomic theory. What is your source? -- User:Miguel 20:33, August 18, 2003 (UTC)


 * D'oh! I just read RjLesch's additions to the main page. My explanation was just a few hours late. --BlackGriffen (Prior to 14:55 October 9, 2001 (UTC))


 * Wish I could claim credit, but that wasn't mine. --RjLesch 14:55, October 9, 2001 (UTC)

Quotations
Since we're adding Einstein's personal/political views, perhaps we should include this quote, "Marriage is nothing more than an attempt to make something lasting out of an incident." I don't know if those were his exact words, but it was very close to that. --BlackGriffen (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * (also see The Bomb, infra) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kwantus (talk &bull; contribs) 22:03, August 29, 2003 (UTC)

Relativity
THe first paragraph is bit dodgy. I think some Irish physicist was the first to propose Special Relativity before 1895. Possibly called Fitzgerald? Lorenz, Minkowski and others may also have been slightly before Einstein. As far as i know, Einstein was the first with a workable General Relativity, but that came later. (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * Note that Einstein was involved in a priority dispute with Hilbert over the Lagrangian formulation of the theory of general relativity.


 * While the particular Lorenz transformations were of course known, Einstein came up with an axiomatic approach to derive them and also with several re-interpretations of fundamental concepts, such as time and size, energy=mass etc. I believe these parts of special relativity are exclusively his, and they are arguably more important than the transformation laws. --AxelBoldt (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * Agreed. The Lorenz-FitzGerald contractions were really an attempt to rehabilitate the ether theory; Eistein's conceptual framework was fundamentally different, though it ended up using the same formulae. Lorenz and FitzGerald are nonetheless important figures, as was Minkowski (though the Minkowski spacetime relations were, I believe, published in 1908 as a response to Einstein). --RjLesch. (Prior to October 9, 2001)

My original text:
 * ...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves could not travel through a medium (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer

Heron's version:
 * ...the Michelson-Morley experiment, which had shown that light waves did not require a medium to travel through (other known waves travelled through media - such as water or air). The speed of light was thus fixed, and not relative to the movement of the observer.

This is definitely an improvement in some respects (my prose was not beautiful :), but it's also potentially misleading, because it could be interpreted as saying "MM shows: where there is no medium, there is no light".

I've tried to improve on the original wording, while avoiding the misinterpretation, with "light waves could not be travelling through a medium".

--Pde 08:02 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

We are getting closer. How about this: "The MM experiment discredited the theory that light was a disturbance of a hypothetical medium called the luminiferous ether, leading Einstein to conclude that light did not depend on any medium for its propagation and therefore that its speed was fixed." Heron 11:22, March 15, 2003 (UTC)


 * Perhaps hypothetical medium should be hypothetical, intangible medium. Or something. The point which would be nice to pass along here is that, if you have studied Newtonian physics, any attempt to understand the movement of light will begin by inserting a co-ordinate system to measure it with; this is really all the aether was.


 * On a related note, I don't think it's enough to say its speed was fixed. In Newtonian physics, speeds are fixed, relative to any yardstick. When you move relative to the yardstick, the speed you see is different (this is intuitive). In SR, the speed is the same regardless of how you are moving. Pde

I think my confusion was partly due to a dual meaning of the word medium: (1) stuff that is required for a signal to propagate, and (2) any transparent or translucent stuff that isn't a vacuum. MM proved that (1) didn't exist, but said nothing about (2). Physicists probably assume meaning (1) when they read this, but hair-splitters like me see both meanings. How am I doing? -- Heron 11:22, March 15, 2003 (UTC)


 * (1) and (2) are not totally seperate concepts. Your statement of (2) is perhaps incomplete, because what I would expect, if I were a 19th Century physicist, is a medium in the sense of (2) which is the vacuum, and the conductor (1) for electricity and magnetism. This is the &quot;universal co-ordinate system&quot; I mentioned above. -- Pde 01:11 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

the bomb
"His theoretical work suggested the possibility of creating an atomic bomb." I think even this is too strong. Einstein's only contribution to the atomic bomb was political. (Prior to October 9, 2001)


 * I agree.I also think there's a problem with, "More immediately, however, the equation set people to dreaming of explosive weaponry..." E=mc2 is neither necessary nor sufficient to show that a nuclear chain reaction is possible. E=mc2 says that /every/ form of energy is equivalent to mass. This is just as true for chemical reactions as for nuclear reactions. --bcrowell &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bcrowell (talk &bull; contribs) 23:12, December 14, 2002 (UTC)


 * All that E=mc&sup2; contributes to the Bomb is that if you can shave out a little binding energy, Avogadro's number&times;c&sup2; will give you a big return. Furthermore, it's been (re)discovered that (like Lorenz-Fitzgerald contraction) priority for E=mc&sup2; is someone else's, Olinto De Pretto published it a year or two before AE. copying

There's a quote attributed to AE, which IMO must be included if it can be verified: &lsquo;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&rsquo; Kwantus 21:47, August 29, 2003 (UTC)

the unified field teory
"He spent his last 20 years in an increasingly isolated and ultimately unsuccessful attempt at constructing a theory that would unify General Relativity and quantum mechanics." Is this correct? I thought he was trying to construct a non-quantum-mechanical theory that would unify all the forces. --bcrowell {{unsigned2|23:12, December 14, 2002|Bcrowell}


 * Given his distaste for QM, I tend to agree, but I don't know the details. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

copyright
Isn't the photo copyrighted? As far as I've been able to find out, all the post-1922 photos of Einstein are owned by various organizations. I have a circa-1905 public-domain photo here, , which could replace it. --bcrowell {{unsigned2|23:12, December 14, 2002|Bcrowell}


 * Yes, I think it would be better to go with the earlier photo. AxelBoldt 00:04 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

politics
I made two corrections to the article. 1) It said Einstein denounced his German citizineship at age of 17. This is incorrect information.   He was the director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin for almost 20 years from 1914 to 1933.  2) The article said "he signed a letter" to FDR regarding development of an atomic bomb programme. Einstein actually wrote that letter himself. It is also noteworthy that he wrote that letter to Roosevel before World War II started. --Keyvan  03:25 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * On point 2 (signing the letter). It appears that Einstein did dictate a letter, but it wasn't sent, and he instead signed two drafts written by Szilard (which IIRC were prepared before the first visit).  There is some evidence here: http://www.google.com/search?q=signed+szilard+einstein+visit+teller ; if you don't have any to the contrary, the text should be changed back. -- Pde 00:34 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)


 * Einstein saying, "I really only acted as a mail box. They brought me a finished letter and I simply signed it" seems pretty convincing to me. I'll change it back. -- Someone else 00:49 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)


 * I thought it was "common knowledge" among those who care about such matters that the letter was the instigation of Szilard, who didn't send it himself because the first thing anyone'd ask is "Who the firetruck is Leo Lizard?"; so he got his friend/teacher with a name to sign it. On another point, one way or another the letter was long before Germany declared on the US, since Roosevelt initiated the Manhattan Project the day before Pearl Harbor. -- Kwantus 02:30, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Please do not deprive the artice from a perfectly correct and relevant information based on a "Google search". Einstein was not a moron to mindlessly sign something that others had drafted for him. Others may have helped him with the English text of the letter as Einstein's first language was German, but the contents of the letter clearly show it was his own. Furthermore, he was the ONLY signator of that letter, not one of many. This is not a negative reflection on Einstein as the article mentions that later in life he regretted having written that letter. I will put the original text back into the article. --Keyvan  15:59 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)


 * It seems that Einstein became a Swiss citizen in February 1901. Why would that be incompatible with being director of Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics in Berlin from 1914 to 1933? -- Someone else 03:33 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Because unfortunately, if a lie is repeated enough for the masses, they start to believe it to be a fact. The fact is that Einstein was a citizen of Germany, and the Nazi regime revoked his citizenship in March of 1934. But by that time, Einstein was already living in USA (I believe he moved to USA in 1933). --Keyvan  03:39 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked it up in a reputable source, as I have none at hand. I trust you have done so. It's not hard to envision that he switched citizenships more than once, or that the Germans considered him a German citizen when he himself did not. -- Someone else 03:44 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * Now looked up. According to Larousse's Biographical Dictionary, he took Swiss nationality in 1901 and was appointed examiner at the Swiss Patent Office 1902-1905, and became an American citizen in 1940. -- Someone else 03:51 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps it was possible to have dual citizenship, or as you said, maybe he switched back and forth multiple times. But he certainly did serve as director of Physics Institute at the Kaiser Wilhelm Society for the Advancement of Sciences from 1914 to 1933. And his citizenship was revoked in 1934, so that suggests that by 1934 he was still a citizen of Germany (at least on paper). If he had no alligiance to Germany all that time, indeed it would seem odd (perhaps even unethical) to accept such a high ranking position for nearly 20 years, and enjoy all the benefits. He certainly developed the bulk of his scientific achievements there. --Keyvan  03:58 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * I see no reason a Swiss citizen could not reside and work in Germany. If you find a reference that says he was a German citizen at the time, or a dual citizen, by all means add it. -- Someone else 04:03 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense?
I note a few changes since I last saw this article, leading to two questions:
 * Why are we writing about a dead man in the present tense? (a problem it seems especially in the "Early Years" section
 * Why are marriage, etc, taken out of chronological order, so that we have in effect two biographies instead of one? --Someone else 01:10, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I've now changed present to past tense and restored chronological order. -- Someone else 04:55, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Why write about history in the present tense? I'm not sure the exact reason, but one of the courses I took in college "Writing on History" (or something similar to that) instilled in me to write history in the present tense. It's commonly accepted by historians when writing on history that you write in the present tense (unless something has changed in the last decade since I left school). You probably could find out exactly if you research as to why historians do it, I forget right now. IIRC, It may be that it helps the readibility of the timeline.
 * Why chronological order not perfect? Musta been just a simple mistake (by me or was existing before I edited the page) ... not trying to develop a divergent history or anything ... reddi 14:37, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I can't find out exactly why historians do it, because they don't. And they don't mix past and present tenses within a paragraph. Get a refund on that course. And even if they did, encyclopedias don't. It certainly didn't help readability here. No problem, it's fixed now. -- Someone else 20:26, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Origins of QM
In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.


 * Just wondering, can someone cite a specific source for this? It's quite significant, a bit fuzzy ("most") and definitely a claim which some readers may wish to follow up further. -- Pde 09:09, September 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with the above. Max Plank was the one who first stated that light comes in quantized energy forms, and that was at the turn of the century. My physical electronics prof said that Arthur Holly Compton's experiments in 1926-1927 put the final nail in the coffin. So I have to believe that it had gaind major acceptance before 1922. --Raul654 14:40, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Einstein and school
The claim that he did poorly in school is completely bogus. This is a recurring urban rumor that started due to one biography (I can't remember which) and won't die. The whole thing resulted when the German school system decided to go from a 1-6 grading system with 1 as "A" to a decimal system with 100 as "A". For one particular year they reversed the 1-6, with 6 being "A", thereby confusing everyone, including the biographer who said he failed math. What's particularily annoying is that the very report card on which the 6 appears states in the comments that "Albert is very good at maths and sciences", but apparently the biographer couldn't/didn't read it.

User:Maury Markowitz 13:30, December 1, 2003 (UTC)

Einstein, Quantum Theory and EPR experiment
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox is worth to mention. Its good point to discussion of Einsteins relation to quantum theory - myth spread by some popular books on physics is something like "even Einstein did not understood quantum mechanics", and EPR is clear example he know and understand very well.

That EPR article may well be his most contemporary cited - other works lie deep in foundations, but every second work on interpretations of Quantum Theory reference to EPR/

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.27.192.19 (talk &bull; contribs) 22:30, December 10, 2003 (UTC)

Plagiarism, POV, etc
I don't see any reason to keep the section on plagiarism. The bit about Einstein being bad at math is patently false (in fact, Einstein's Ph.D. dissertation was nearly rejected because one of the examiners felt that it should have been submitted for a Ph.D. in math, not physics, as the subject was mostly differential equations.) However, I see no reason to toss out the vignette on Einstein's brain just because it was added by the same user. It seems to be verifiable and is an interesting footnote to Einstein's life. Isomorphic 20:08, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, after all the Charlie Chaplin pages mentions the grave robbery of his body. No need for the second sentence though, as it's a non-event (nothing of any significance happened on that road trip) and perhaps a plug for a book. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.253.204 (talk &bull; contribs) 00:20, February 17, 2004  (UTC)

-

And this: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/EinsteinBio.htm

states: "In 1895 Einstein failed an examination that would have allowed him to study for a diploma as an electrical engineer at the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (ETH) in Zurich. Einstein renounced German citizenship in 1896 and was to be stateless for a number of years...Following the failing of the entrance exam to the ETH, Einstein attended secondary school at Aarau planning to use this route to enter the ETH in Zurich."

What do you suppose constituted most of that examination? Mathematics, perhaps?

This document: http://www.thetech.org/exhibits/online/revolution/warnock/i_a.html

states: "Einstein failed 9th grade algebra."

This document: [link removed]

states: "The basic idea is this: Einstein was a poor student, of average ability. He even failed seventh grade math. There was nothing exceptional about his ability or accomplishments, until he got a job as a low level clerk in the patent office in Bern, Switzerland."

and this: "The claim is made that by working in the patent office, Albert Einstein had access to secret documents submitted by the leading scientists of his day. Albert Einstein essentially cut and pasted together these secret documents and published them as his own work. The scientists could hardly complain, as they had patent applications pending in his patent office."

and this: "The Encyclopedia Britannica says of Einstein's early education that he "showed little scholastic ability." It also says that at the age of 15, "with poor grades in history, geography, and languages, he left school with no diploma." Einstein himself wrote in a school paper of his "lack of imagination and practical ability." In 1895, Einstein failed a simple entrance exam to an engineering school in Zurich. This exam consisted mainly of mathematical problems, and Einstein showed himself to be mathematically inept in this exam. He then entered a lesser school hoping to use it as a stepping stone to the engineering school he could not get into, but after graduating in 1900, he still could not get a position at the engineering school! Unable to go to the school he wanted, he got a job at the patent office in Bern."

And one more document: http://www.engology.com/arteinstein1.htm

states: "Albert Einstein was born on March 14, 1879 in Wurtemburg, Germany. In 1895, Einstein attempted to enroll at Eidgenossische Technishe Hockshule (ETH), a technical university in Zurich, to study Electrical Engineering, but failed the entrance examination."

So this man, who was mathematically inept and a self-professed dullard who lacked both imagination and practical ability, published three papers that revolutionized physics, was awarded an honorary doctorate and won the Nobel prize all in one year? hmm...

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 20:19, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * The bit about Einstein failing grade school math is already debunked on the talk page above. I'll answer the rest. The quotes listed above are full of misconceptions, misumderstanding, and urban legends repeated as fact. The exact events surrounding Einstein's departure from the Gymnasium (high school, roughtly) without graduating are murky. It's fairly clear, however, that he didn't like it there, was bored with classical studies, and was a troublemaker. He was glad to go, and the administration was glad to kick him out. It had little to do with his ability, and certainly not with his mathematical ability.


 * Once he left the Gymnasium, he went to live with his parents in Italy. This created a difficulty because he was too old for the schools there, but family finances required him to start preparing for a career. Thus his father had him take the examinations for the ETH, despite the fact that Albert was two years younger than most students entering ETH. Einstein failed the exam. It's commonly believed that this is because he didn't meet standards in languages, biology, and other non-mathematical topics. In his own later words, his failure was his fault as he &quot;had made no attempt whatsoever to prepare himself.&quot; It has been suggested this was because he didn't want to follow his father's wishes and become an electrical engineer.


 * He studied for a year nearby at the cantonal school at Aarau. He then passed the ETH exams on his second try, spent four years at ETH.


 * His attendance at another school eliminated the requirement of an entrance exams. A similar practice is used in universities all over the world to this day. If your test scores are abysmal, try a year or two at a junior college. - Plautus 02:36, February 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * "Einstein took his examination at the ETH in the summer of 1896. He passed, returned to his parents in Italy..." direct quote Einstein:  The Life and Times by Ronald Clark.  This was his second try, as he had failed in 1895.  Isomorphic 20:56, February 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * While there, he studied math and physics under professors including Hermann Minkowski. He graduated with a respectable 4.91 out of 6.00. He was not hired subsequently because his he was an cocksure, independent student, and the physics professor at ETH, Heinrich Weber didn't like him.


 * How convenient. I'm amazed you didn't claim he wasn't hired due to antisemitism. - Plautus 02:36, February 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * I didn't, because that wouldn't have been true. Isomorphic 20:56, February 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * All this is summarized from the respected biography by Ronald Clark, sitting in front of me, not off a website or extracted out-of-context from an encyclopedia. Since I've gone to the trouble of typing it up, I wouldn't mind if someone would incorporate relevant bits of it into the main article when it gets unprotected. Isomorphic 21:46, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, and incidentally, the idea that Einstein could've plagiarized this work from papers submitted to the patent office is just silly. Scientist do not submit patent applications for work in theoretical physics. Isomorphic 22:00, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * You're right, theoretical physicists don't patent their daydreams, but experimental physicists who actually produce something and expect compensation for it do patent their ideas. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 22:46, February 13, 2004  (UTC)


 * Special relativity and quantum mechanics were without practical application when Einstein wrote his papers on them. Why would anyone have put them in a patent application?  Isomorphic 22:00, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * It wasn't put into patent applications necessarily, but it was published in papers by these men. I'm sorry you have problems with observable reality. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 22:46, February 13, 2004  (UTC)


 * YMMV on the patent office ... though I personally don't think he plagerized anything, I would say that being there was good for him and him developing the theories (seeing a bit o' this and a bit o' that ... but no one else had it all (only parts o' "it"); you should read some patents, they are neat) ... inventions are based on physics, see Tesla patents for an example of this [and I have my own personal conspiracy theories on 'stien and Tesla, not that there is much evidence (other than what is out there already) for 'em =-] ...
 * Now, as to Special relativity and quantum mechanics, that is just building on previous works [he may not of "independently" developed this, but most don't ... they work off of the work that had came before (this does not mean he plagerized anything though)] ... what I'm trying to say is that he connected the dots and told ppl (and got recognized; some who do connect things don't get recognized till years later [if ever]). I DO NOT agree that he palgerized other's work, only that he built upon what was there (ex. the Lorentz transforms) ... and this is done today (scientists don't reinvent the wheel) ... so I don't think it's a big deal (and I think that is what it says basically in the article, but i'll have to reread it) ... and this has never made me feel less of him (i've always like ol' 'stien) .... Sincerely, JDR 22:56, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

-


 * Since I protected it, I won't express an opinion. I can say that the section about his brain is true. &rarr;Raul654 20:15, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Google search for "einstein plagiarism" (7380 hits) finds "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist", one on amazon.com, so the book probably exists. &#922;&#963;&#965;&#960; Cyp    20:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * I was assuming that The Incorrigible Plagiarist exists. The question, of course, is whether it's worthwhile enough to repeat its claims in the article.  I think not.  Also, thanks to Plautus for figuring out how not to attribute his words to me this time.  Isomorphic 20:32, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * The text that Plautus satire keeps pasting in here is from this page: http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/einstein.htm It looks like it has a copyright notice on it. SheikYerBooty 20:34, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

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If you'll check again you'll see it's not direct quoting, but paraphrasing. Paraphrasing is not a violation of fair use. Also quoting a single, unattributed sentence is not plagiarism as implied by fair use. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 20:38, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Plaguarism and copyright violations are not the same thing. Fair use protects againt copyright violations. At Wikipedia, we care about both. Therefore, when quoting, we cite sources. &rarr;Raul654 20:39, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

-

And does agreeing with a sentiment and expressing it using similar words equate to plagiarism? Am I to cite every source or merely one arbitrary source of a given "idea" before I am able to put that idea into words? Give me a break. What I did was in no way a violation of fair use nor was it plagiarism. If I thought it were appropriate to sprinkle URL's around to back up every statement I would, but that's what talk is for is it not? I'll gladly provide abundant souce material here. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 20:42, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * The litmus test for plaguarism is - "are the thoughts you are expressing yours?" In this case, you took someone else's words (thoughts) without attribution. That is plaguarism. Even if it wasn't a copyright violation (something I am not convinced of either way - Jamesday would be better to ask though), we still don't want plagurized material here. &rarr;Raul654 20:47, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

-

Instead of plagiarism I suggest you look up the word slander. I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research or, as Einstein would probably claim, from my dreams and thought experiments. If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism. Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go. I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries. And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book. Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plautus satire (talk &bull; contribs) 20:51, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Let's pick that statement apart:
 * I did not claim that the idea Einstein was a plagiarist came from me or my own research ... experiments. 
 * You did. The name "Einstein" evokes images of genius, but Albert Einstein was, in fact, a plagiarist, who copied the theories of Lorentz, Poincare, Gerber, and Hilbert. Notice, no citation, which means you (supposedly) came up with this idea on your own. Also, I'd like to note that according to official Wikipedia policy, only accepted facts and theories are supposed to be here, and original research is not. This particular statement is not generally accepted.
 * If I had, then you would have a case to make against me for plagiarism.
 * Agreed.
 * Honestly this tit-for-tat crap has got to go.
 * Agreed.
 * I did, in fact, claim that a named author who wrote an also named book presents abundant evidence of Einstein's plagiarism and the extent to which it was known about by his contemporaries.
 * Agreed.
 * And in describing that book I chose words that were very similar to words used by others to describe the same book.
 * A likely story. The similiarities are almost word for word. &rarr;Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Is it plagiarism for two people to observe the same book and draw the same conclusions from it? Hardly.
 * I agree, if that is the case.
 * &rarr;Raul654 21:09, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Raul654, I'm going to give you the try-hard award for this one. Clearly you're going way out on a limb to hang this plagiarism charge on me. Careful, don't get too close to the end of the limb, oh no, don't fall! - Plautus Satire 21:15, February 13, 2004 (UTC)

Just a note ... I tried to include his info, but the "critic" refused to leave it at the end (a good place for critics of all sorts, not just 'stien). It's not suitable for the intro. But, appearantly the "critic" didn't want to "go along" (I personally tried to note the criticsm after it was posted in the article (copy edited it and put it @ the bottom)... the crticism would/should be noted (as einstien does have them today; but most are refutable) and this should placed appropriately (everyone has critics, but leave it to the last)) ... so, instead, we got a page protection =-\ ... JDR 21:18, February 13, 2004 (UTC) - I see. You want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables. Wonderful idea. Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma. - Plautus Satire 21:21, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * You see? I don't think you do ...
 * "Want the observable evidence relegated to a "criticism" of the Einsteinian fables"? Ummm no ... "criticism" (everyone and everything got one) could be noted ... just placed in the appropriate space ... NOT @ the beginning (other articles have crtics, and they nearly always are @ the bottom) ... you have to explain subject before you can criticize it ...
 * "Wonderful idea"? So you agree? hmmm ...mabey not ...
 * "Don't put relevant facts up front where they can be seen to conflict with the dogma"? I am starting to think what you are saying is dogma ... NOW, it's called point-counterpoint .... state the detail / facts and, then, state the opposing facts (with addition point-counterpoints on those) ... you will find that is the general way around these part [from my experience; alot of articles have critic sections]. I have heard some of your criticism ... and could agree on some criticism [some other criticism not] ('stien has been a personal hero o' mine since I was young ... so this is not a "new" thing to me ... I may have heard o' some o' the critical points that you place in earlier IIRC ...), and I would like to include your points (if not only for the fact to refute them with others points, as there are counterpoints to the critics) ... but you have to be cooperative, not combative.Sincerely, JDR 21:54, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * If your ideas have merit, that will be enough to get them general acceptance. Once they are generally accepted, we'll see about giving them a more prominent place in the article. Right now, this comes under the catagory of "crank theory" -- which, for the record, is explictely exluded by wikipedia policy &rarr;Raul654 21:25, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You mean like the idea of a deity? Clearly the idea of a deity is an absurd notion, but a very popular one. Last time I checked about ninety-eight percent of the human population of Earth believed in some sort of deity. Should evolutionary theory simply be an appendix of possible criticisms of biblical creationism? - Plautus Satire 21:27, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but you're changing the issue (again). &rarr;Raul654 21:29, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

You started it. - Plautus Satire 21:34, February 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * You're trolling. If you keep it up much longer, you will inevitably be banned. &rarr;Raul654 21:49, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Citation: for those that thought Plautus just "came up with this idea," please  refer to at least one book on the subject:  "Einstein:  The Incorrigible Plagiarist", Christopher Jon Bjerknes, 2002, XTX Inc., isbn: 0-9719629-8-7 There are others as well, but the interested researcher can surely find them on his/her own. -Ionized 19:32, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * Plautus himself cited that book. It's already been discussed on this page, unless Plautus deleted or edited the discussions.  Nothing new, no reason to bring it up again.  Curps 19:55, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok, I did not see that. All I saw where people asking for references.  Next time Ill try to sift deeper into the muck to see what has been cited already.  -Ionized 05:52, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

Zionism
I intend to insert material into the Albert Einstein entry near the existing claim that Albert Einstein was a zionist. I intend to elaborate further, citing the volume of his writings titled About Zionism: Speeches and Lectures by Professor Albert Einstein published in 1930, which is, I believe, the source of this claim he was a zionist (which he claims in this volume). (P.S.: also correcting "first president" to "second president")- Plautus 00:41, February 15, 2004 (UTC)


 * I would like to remove the added paragraphs of Einstein's alleged Zionism. Failing that, I think a NPOV dispute disclaimer should be added until we come to an agreement.  If we do keep the Zionism information then the least we can do is move it to the correct sub-level under politics.  This is a hot topic recently so I'm asking here before just moving stuff around. SheikYerBooty 19:58, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

In the first place, I didn't "add paragraphs of Einstein's alleged zionism". The claim was already in the entry that Einstein was a supporter of zionism. What I did was provide source material in Einstein's own words where he stated he was in fact a religionist, a zionist and a nationalist. Later testimony from him on the subject seems to indicate age mellowed him away from these "hardline" stances. In the second place, I stated what Einstein claimed about himself. Where is the dispute? It seems the only dispute is you disputing nearly any and everything that I post. Get over it already. Take your lumps and move on. Why is it you fail to mention I corrected a glaring factual error, namely that Einstein was offered the SECOND presidency of Israel, not the FIRST. Check the page history and see how long the WRONG information has been in there. Where were your cries of outrage and dispute then? I suspect you are simply a reactionary person who has got a hardon for me and is out to do in anything I contribute to wikipedia in any way you are able to. How many times are you going to try and get my working pages protected, reverted and my IP banned in violation of the wikipedia guidelines? Where is my persistent vandalism? Disagreeing with you and the other people who are more comfortable with fables than with truth? That's not vandalism, that's a cry in the wilderness, the frustrated shouts of the only human being on Planet of the Apes. - Plautus 03:58, February 16, 2004 (UTC)

(PS: I added material to clarify an EXISTING CLAIM, I did not "add" the claim that Einstein was a zionist as Sheikyerbooty suggests below.) Plautus satire 16:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Plautus, you most certainly did add "paragraphs" to the article regarding Mr. Einstein's changing support for Zionism.  The word count now stands at approximately 480, before you came online is was 27 words.  You've admitted yourself that his views "mellowed" as he got older yet your included quotes and statements try and picture him at his most extreme.  We need to come to an agreement and compromise since I intend to start editing that page tomorrow, but I won't  get involved in an edit war with you.


 * I've not tried to get you banned or blocked, I've only asked for your cooperation in discussing things before you start (and continue) edit wars, but you've decided to ignore those requests and continue with your hardline attitude. I do find it strange that you've been involved in numerous edit wars, been blocked at least twice and directly caused at least four pages to get locked, all that in two days.  Relax sport, it's just an encyclopedia.


 * SheikYerBooty 06:33, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

First of all, how many of my edits are still extant? How many of the overreactions to my edits were halted by page protection? How much of my input is still in wikipedia, despite the efforts of you and others to squash my input? Here's a clue, Sheikyerbooty: I don't have to get your permission to edit pages. Every edit I have made to wikipedia was after consideration and the arrival at the conclusion that what I saw was wrong, but what I knew was right. If I make mistakes I am more than willing to admit it, because of the "good faith" nature of my edits. All good faith edits to pages should be given all due consideration, instead of immediately being reverted in a kneejerk fashion simply because evidence conflicts with the pre-existing fables. Like the fable about Einstein being offered the first presidency of Israel, which he was not. I corrected that, and I corrected and added other things about Einstein, such as the very relevant fact that his brain was not cremated, but was in fact preserved by a pathologist. Perhaps encyclopedia entries aren't the place for speculative conclusions, but they most certainly are the place to put relevant facts about a subject, don't you agree? What am I saying, of course you agree. You just don't seem to be willing to practice what you preach when you take a dislike to another contributor. - Plautus satire 16:55, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Second of all, what I did was make "good faith" edits of entries. You and others started the "revision wars" without proper discussion. Apparently you and others felt the need to "protect" the masses from my presentations of factual information. Once again, how much of that factual information is still there, despite attempts by you and others to bury it all? You're right, it is strange that so many people would oppose such obviously good and valid edits. It's almost as if there is some sort of troll mafia out there determined to preserve crippled knowlege. Why is it that you and others are unwilling to take any responsibility for an "edit war"? It takes two people to have a fight, didn't your mother ever teach you that, or were you an only child? Only children do tend to be spoiled and pouty. Continuous reversion in place of disucssion of facts on the table is just as culpable for an edit war as the original good faith edit which included those facts. - Plautus satire 17:02, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Einstein, a "mathematician"?
It is misleading to call Einstein a "physicicist and mathematician". His degrees were in physics only, and while he undoubtedly had a certain mastery of mathematics, so do many people in many fields. Moreover, according to Clarke's well-respected biography, he was helped tremendously by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski from Göttingen, Germany, who described Einstein as a "lazy dog who never bothered about mathematics at all." Einstein wrote, "The people in Göttingen sometimes strike me not as if they wanted to help formulate something clearly, but as if they wanted only to show us physicists how much brighter they are than we." He also joked, "Since the mathematicians have attacked [i.e., reformulated] the relativity theory, I myself no longer understand it any more." Johnstone 23:17, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * True enough. He used math to the extent that all physicists do, not the sort of abstract math that mathematicians do. 67.68.253.204 00:31, February 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Another person who helped Einstein with mathematics was his friend Marcel Grossman. -- Miguel Thu Feb 19 05:55 GMT 2004


 * It's "misleading" to not call Einstien a physicicist and mathematician. "He undoubtedly had a mastery of mathematics". JDR 00:36, February 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Albert Einstein - Mathematician and Physicist
 * School of Mathematics and Statistics University of St Andrews, Scotland
 * famousmathematician.com


 * Reddi, by your definition, which theoretical physicists would not be mathematicians? Every theoretical physicist must have a very strong mastery of math. Consider the list of branches of mathematics.  Mathematicians generally specialize in one or more of those branches. 67.68.253.204 00:44, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * The School of Mathematics and Statistics and famousmathematician.com agree that he was a mathematician. JDR 00:57, February 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * famousmathematician.com says "Primary Occupation: Mathematician", which is simply silly. Please understand I mean Einstein no disrespect.  It's just that you'd really have to change the entries for Feynman, Hawking, etc and call them all mathematicians too. 67.68.253.204 01:02, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * School of Mathematics and Statistics is pretty authoritative on math topics. They call him one. famousmathematician probably have reasons that they cite his primary occupation as a Mathematician. If you could find a nice site to refute that he was one, that be a good start ... but, again, the university of St Andrews is pretty tough to argue with. As to the other ones, change 'em (but have a reaons (ie., citation)). JDR 01:11, February 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * It's not worth arguing over. If you like, Einstein is famous enough to be an "honorary" mathematician. No citation needed, my background is in physics.  Although physics is more strongly grounded in math than any other science, and although theoretical physics has often pioneered new mathematical techniques which mathematicians later make more rigorous, and there is a strong cross-fertilization of ideas back and forth between theoretical physics and math, still... you are effectively claiming that every theoretical physicist should also be considered a mathematician, and that is not how most people in those fields or outside would see it. 67.68.253.204 01:24, February 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Every theoretical physicist is a mathematician? Mabey ... especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists)
 * Not how outside would see it? YMMV on that ... as many do ... and those inside the field do to [see the above reference to the school]
 * I think what we are discussing is a "exclusive vs inclusive" arguement ... and, as can be been seen from the above links, it's safer to err for the inclusion than the exclusion [though YMMV on it]. Sincerely, JDR 01:40, February 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * especially if they deal with and work in mathematical techniques (not all do; experimentalism is far superior than math IMO ... and those that experiment can still be theoretical physicists). This makes no sense.  Experimentalism is not theoretical physics.  There are some extreemly new directions that theoretical physics has taken that don't use math per se, but Einstein was involved in none of them, nor were they even around in his time.  As far as Einstein is concerned, the term theoretical physicist implies someone who uses math.  But just because you use math does not make you a mathmatition.  Everyone uses math, you use it to balance your checkbook, or to figure out how long your drive to work is going to take, that doesn't make you a mathmatition.  That fact is fairly obvious and I don't see that it changes simply because the math in question is harder. --Starx 15:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My quick search of several other encyclopedias revealed that none of them referred to Einstein as a "mathematician":


 * Encyclopedia Britannica calls him a "German-American physicist"
 * Encarta.msn.com, a "German-born American physicist and Nobel laureate"
 * Encyclopedia.com, an "American theoretical physicist"
 * Columbia Encyclopedia, an "American theoretical physicist"

Just because some mathematicians wish to claim one of the greatest intellects in history as one of their own doesn't mean that everyone has to play along if its not accurate. A mathematician, according to Merriam-Webster's, is "a specialist or expert in mathematics". Einstein did not specialize in math, and he was not considered an expert, as evidenced by the quotes in my original posting at the top of this section.

If he had a degree in mathematics, or had published groundbreaking research papers that dealt exclusively with math, and not problems in physics that happened to require math, then he could legitimately be called a "mathematician". Johnstone 01:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree (see my comments earlier).
 * Reddi, look at it this way. Einstein won the Nobel prize in physics.  Would he have been a candidate to win the Fields medal, which is the equivalent in math?  The answer is no... it wasn't his field (pun intended). 67.70.52.148 01:35, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * The answer is no, but not for your incorrect reason. Edward Witten is widely considered a theoretical physicist, but he won the Fields medal.  So being a physicist does not disqualify you as long as you make significant mathematical contributions.  The first Fields Medal was awarded in 1936, and at that late date, Einstein would not have been young enough -- there is an age requirement.  Of course, this is only a tangent and not really relevant to the main discussion.  --C S 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * The nobel was primarily for experimentation that he did. He was a mathemtician (see citations above and see below by Isomorphic). JDR 01:51, February 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * While I tend to agree that Einstein was not a mathematician, it is interesting to note that according to Clark's biography, Einstein's doctoral dissertation ran into some difficulty because the initial reviewer believed that the content was more appropriate for an applied mathematics degree. So stating that he was one would not be a terrible error.  Isomorphic 02:52, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I have searched for the quote in Clark's biography but couldn't find it. Do you recall the page?  (It doesn't change my mind, but I am curious to read it nonetheless.)


 * Here's another way of looking at this issue: In addition to being a physicist, Einstein was also a "pacifist", "philosopher", "sailor", "violinist", and "Zionist", among other things. Would including these in the first sentence of the article acomplish anything other than to muddle it? Johnstone 01:34, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Those are not usually include ... though the profession of physicist and mathematician are. JDR 01:51, February 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * "Mathematician" is not "usually" included in general encyclopedias (see above). Two of the examples you cite are math sites (which is equivalent to a "sailing" site listing Einstein as a famous person who sailed), or a single article in about.com. Johnstone 02:02, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician, I hope the intro as now is more suitable to you and others (It still includes the mathematician ref, while not explicitly stating he was such). The general encyclopedias, IMO, are examples that the fact was missed ... something the wikipedia can catch and correct (as is the case in some articles @ wikipedia). But, to sidestep the issue (and foster less flip-flop editing of the article), I think the intro as of now is good to include the information and not refute institutions such as School of Mathematics. Sincerely, JDR 19:11, February 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * The new wording looks OK to me. I've removed the parentheses because it's an easier read without them. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't have the reference with me. I'll look it up later tonight and give you the page.  Anyway, I'm not really pushing to include "mathematician" in the opening.  I'm certain Einstein didn't consider himself one.  I was just bringing up a relevant bit of historical minutae.  Isomorphic 02:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Here we go. Fifth paragraph of the section "Swiss Civil Servant" in Clark's biography quotes Alfred Kleiner saying "as the principle achievement of Einstein's work consists of the treatment of differential equations, it is thus of a mathematical nature and belongs to analytical mechanics."  The work in question is the Ph.D. thesis.  Isomorphic 19:24, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the effort of looking that up. I appreciate it. Johnstone 00:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * "Mathematician" is needed to describe Einstien's entire scientific career (Relativity being based in equations (and portions of the equations are untested)). JDR 08:17, February 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * There is not a single branch of physics that is not based on equations. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.70.53.90 (talk &bull; contribs) 19:28, February 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * Expermients are what physics is based off of (math is used for other things; see by some as primary, though it is secondary) .... and A New Kind of Science (book) I think is a recents acknowledgement that math is not what you want physics based off of. JDR 19:33, February 19, 2004 (UTC)

Reddi, you don't seem to grasp what is considered the essential distinction between physicists (or scientists in general) and mathematicians, as far as professionally -- physicists' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of nature, to make hypotheses about the physical world that can be tested by experiment, and to organise and conceptualise these conclusions into theories which are not infrequently expressed in terms of mathematics; mathematicians' primary intellectual goal is to understand the laws of mathematical objects, which are independent of experimental "verification", to make hypotheses about these objects and their relations, and to prove these hypotheses by rigorous deductive processes. The most important distinction is proof -- mathematicians are obsessed with the reasons why mathematical claims must be true; scientists (to generalise greatly) usually just care if the mathematics works and helps express their theories. As far as teaching, the thought processes and "indoctrination" (for lack of a better word) that math teachers do is not really the same as science teachers. So, the question is, how much original mathematical research did Einstein do? In other words, did he actually develop the mathematical theories themselves, and prove theorems about them, or did he just use them to solve his problems? I confess, I don't know the exact answer to this question. And I realise the line between mathematician and theoretical physicist is not that clear (many theoretical physicists prove lots of theorems and essentially do math, in the way I described above). I do know that Einstein used tensor calculus, differential geometry, and differential equations, but these were tools that had been around for a while (Riemann's work was a half-century old). Just because some physics professor read his ph.d. thesis, got confused, and said, "it looks like applied math" isn't enough to convince me he was really a mathematician. I believe the 4 encyclopedias quoted above are more accurate not to include this. (Your response that "it just shows they're wrong" is such circular logic I don't need to point this out.) Even if Einstein had some small mathematical output, this achievement pales in comparison to his contributions to physics itself. I would like those who believe Einstein made major accomplishments to mathematics (read carefully, as opposed to "having great mathematical facility" or "a great knowledge of math", any working physicist must have this) to give me specific evidence -- papers that are mathematical in nature, theorems he proved, etc. Quoting the name of a couple websites is lazy. I just don't understand your argument -- if I understand you correctly, it could be argued that ALL physicists are mathematicians, because they use such advanced math, which is absurd. Revolver 04:12, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Though it's generally recognized that he was a mathematician
 * Maybe among the people you know. Among physicists and mathematicians, this is not true. Almost everyone I know would say that Einstein was a theoretical physicist, but not a mathematician. Revolver 04:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have heard that Einstein was often referred to as a mathematician in the popular press in the early 20th century, but that was only because the term "theoretical physicist" was not in wide popular use in the newspapers of the time. Einstein had a good theoretical physicist's grasp of mathematics, but he used it in a theoretical physicist's way, rather than studying it as a subject in itself as a mathematician would; he collaborated with mathematicians such as Grossman to help him with mathematical details. --Matt McIrvin 17:47, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the professional literature on the history of science that I have seen, Einstein is a physicist, not a mathematician. He worked on physical problems, not mathematical ones. There are some people who did both, such as Henri Poincare. But that means that they published on both subjects. Einstein published on physics. He used a lot of math in his physics, but that doesn't make him a mathematician (it does, however, make him pretty awesome). --Fastfission 20:15, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Einstein's only contribution to mathematics, from what my many math department professors have told me, was a method of expressing sums using subscripts instead of Sigma notation for ease of readability. And that's really just a contribution to the language of mathematics, not to actual mathematical theory. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.120.158.84 (talk &bull; contribs) 03:49, October 24, 2004  (UTC)


 * Don't believe everything you're told. He did more than that.  That kind of comment is more a joke in the style mathematicians like to make rather than a serious historical remark.  I challenge any of your professors that said that to say it in a public forum as a serious claim.  Don't knock Einstein summation either; it's very useful.  --C S 08:55, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Please remember that before WW2 and atom bomb, physics and physicists weren't as well known for public as they are today. In his time, he was often entitled as mathematician by people who weren't sure what physicist meant. 30 Jan 2005 &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.234.204.251 (talk &bull; contribs) 13:07, January 30, 2005  (UTC)

Zionism again
Restarting the Zionism discussion - what is the source for the idea that Einstein's Zionism waned in his later years? The following three paragraphs are Einstein's own words, from his message declining the Israeli presidency.

"All my life I have dealt with objective matters, hence I lack both the natural aptitude and the experience to deal properly with people and to exercise official functions. For these reasons alone I should be unsuited to fulfill the duties of that high office, even if my advancing age was not making increasing inroads on my strength.

I am the more distressed over these circumstances because my relationship to the Jewish people has become my strongest human bond, ever since I became fully aware of our precarious situation among the nations of the world.

Now that we have lost the man who for so many years, against such great and tragic odds, bore the heavy responsibility of leading us towards political independence [note: I'm pretty sure he means Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel, who had just died and whose place Einstein was being asked to take,] I hope with all my heart that a successor may be found whose experience and personality will enable him to accept the formidable and responsible task."

I will wait for response before editing, since apparently this is controversial, but I don't think the above paragraphs leave much room for dispute, nor can I find anything else in the Clark biography that suggests that Einstein ever wavered in his support for Israel. I'm not pushing a viewpoint, but I just want the article to reflect the best information available. If anyone has conflicting evidence with a good source, please present it. Isomorphic 23:34, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by Isomorphic above. I would like to see more evidence that Einstein abandoned the self-professed zionism of his younger days. All I've ever been able to find are his own words stating he was zionist, religionist and nationalist, and only inferences drawn about his "waning" zionism as age supposedly mellowed him. More support or I agree, this bit about his zionism waning should be removed or conditionally phrased to reflect the lack Einstein's own statements to draw upon. - Plautus satire 00:57, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

From earlier material in this page discussion:

in January 1946 Einstein stated: "The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an "imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."
 * You make an excellent case using Einstein's words that he changed his mind and lied by claiming he had never supported the state of Israel, but this only tangentally addresses the issue of his zionism. A casual reader may not be aware of the minimal associations between zionism and nationalism, maybe add a brief clause about that relation to slightly soften his perceived zionism with age. Yes, no? - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In his 1950 book, Out of My Later Years, he said: "I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain."

The message declining the presidency required diplomacy and tact, to do otherwise would risk offense. But Einstein strongly opposed nationalism in any form and subscribed to a universalist philosophy and was not particularly pious or religious. It may be that he supported Zionism as a religious concept but had considerable difficulty when the situation turned into an armed conflict between nations. Declining the presidency of Israel was a consequence of his universalist views. Curps 02:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Interesting that you provide no quotes here. And what do you make of his early (around 1900) claims that he was a religionist? What do you suppose he meant by "religionist"? He stated he wasn't a racial jew but a religious jew. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Zionism" is a very loaded word today, in the context of 50 years of bitter armed conflict between nations and peoples. It did not have the same polarizing connotations back in the 1920s as a utopian religious concept, probably many Zionists back then hoped for some kind of peaceful accomodation with Arab populations. Today it implies Israeli nationalism and Einstein strongly opposed any form of nationalism.
 * Maybe you should petition to have the word zionism stricken from the entry as inflammatory. It's been done before with "conspiracy theory". - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Tangental question to satisfy my nagging curiosity: Which side is the "nation" and which side is the "people"? - Plautus satire 03:26, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The political views section should be kept short, since this is only incidental to his scientific accomplishments which take up the bulk of this article. So no more than one short paragraph each should be given to pacifism, socialism, nuclear disarmament, or Zionism. And any Zionism paragraph must present the right balance. Curps 03:14, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * In my opinion if we don't have Einstein's words what we have is speculation. Any quotes from him that support speculation about his beliefs should be highlighted, speculation and deduction based on personal prejudice should be avoided entirely. - Plautus satire 03:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Einstein also apparently wrote a letter to the Palestinian Arab Newspaper Falastin on January 28, 1930, in which he wrote:


 * "One who, like myself, has cherished for many years the conviction that the humanity of the future must be built up on an intimate community of the nations, and that aggressive nationalism must be conquered, can see a future for Palestine only on the basis of peaceful cooperation between the two peoples who are at home in the country."

This was back in 1930, in his younger days. The word "Zionism" clearly meant something different to Einstein back then (Jewish settlement of Palestine with both Jews and Arabs living there) than it does to us today (state of Israel), which is why it is fairly unhelpful and potentially polarizing to even include a section on Zionism at all. Curps 03:39, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree this should go in there, but not at the expense of his earlier statements, as long as no reasonable (relevant and non-redundant) quotes are specifically omitted I can't think of any issues I have here. Of course I can not speak for everyone. As a side note, Curps, I hope you see I am not bearing you any grudge. If I criticize you it's because I feel I have a valid criticism. In this case I think you did fine research, as I for one have never seen those words of Einstein before. Well done. - Plautus satire 03:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reference, Curps. I don't think Einstein's Zionism was motivated by any religious feelings, or from any great respect for the Jewish religion. As you say, Einstein was not a practicing Jew, and from what I know his personal religious beliefs are more like deism or pantheism. Again in his own words, "nor is there anything in me which could be called 'Jewish faith.'" After further reading, it seems to me that his support was for Judaism as a cultural and ethnic identity, and for Israel as a focus for Jewish cultural and ethnic awareness, not for Israel as a nation-state.

Regardless of how the issue of Einstein's Zionism is eventually treated, I think there needs to be a bit more focus on his pacifism, which was at least as fundamental to his outlook. Also, I disagree that his politics are less important than his scientific work. Einstein produced very little of scientific significance after General Relativity, but he was a very visible public figure until his death. Isomorphic 04:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

--

gibberish
This is gibberish


 * The idea later proved invaluable for understanding how the Big Bang, which was a pure burst of energy, could lead to the precipitation of a universe filled with matter (it turns out that the energy required to create the matter is exactly offset by the negative potential energy of the universe's gravitational well).

I'm not sure this is true....


 * Even after experiments showed that Einstein's equations for the photoelectric effect were accurate, his explanation was not universally accepted. In 1922, when he was awarded the Nobel Prize, and his work on photoelectricity was mentioned by name, most physicists thought that, while the equation was correct, light quanta were impossible.

Roadrunner 11:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the top (may be related to the recent news) .... but the bottom can be changed (and I did). IIRC, his initial equations were not acccepted. Later, they were .... [BTW, it wasn't for the equations that he got the Nobel, it was the experiment to show it ... (the PE experiment and "other contributions", more precisely)]. Sincerely, JDR 12:48, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

trip to Japan
What is the relevance of Einstein's trip to Japan? Did something significant take place? Is it especially memorable for some reason (eg, first trip by a Nobel laureate to Japan? I doubt it). Otherwise it's too trivial to include. Curps 03:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

thomas fears
thomas is a brave person but he has a fear which is he could fail.fail is his fear you know once a upon a time 152.59.199.245 (talk) 15:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)