Talk:Albert Einstein/Archive index

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Objection to refering Einstein ethnic origin as "German -Jew"
"...If the relativity theory will be proven true, the Germans will say I am a German, the Swiss I am a Swiss and the French that I am a great man. If not, the Germans will call me Swiss, the Swiss will call me German, and the French will say I am a Jew...." Albert Einstein, long before the nazis, long before Hitler rise to power.

1.German Jews are actually from the very same origin as other Jewish groups of Europe ,North Africa and most of the middle east (there are few Jewish groups which are from a different historical lineage). So, a Jew which born in Germany is only from a different culture from other Jews(not necessarily) and in any way the Jews of Germany are only an ethnic sub-group, at most , within the very same ethnic group (and refering a Jew as Arab-Jew or German-Jew is at least contriversal*). So there is no justification to mention Einstein as a "German Jew".

2.Einstein might be, Off course, very influenced from different aspects of the German culture -but this doesn't make his ethnic origin from Jewish to German. Actually, the culture is only one part in the ethnic identity and it have weight with in ones ethnic identity only if there is connection between his/her culture and his historical origin (in the case of Einstein :Jew). For example : Lawrence of Arabia was, at least part of his life , very influenced from the Arab culture -but it doesn't made him to be an ethnic Arab. When it come to a minority group which had no autonomic state and so being almost forced to adopt the same language and at least parts of the culture elements of the (hostile) hosting ethnic group (i.e. German in the case of Einstein) it make my argument much stronger.

3.Einstein saw himself as a "citizen of the world", and while saying that he is not a German ,after the Nazis raised to power ,he known for saying that: "A Jew will always be a Jew even if he convert". So, while there are few users who blaming me for promoting an agenda (well, at least one hint that) -it is better for them to check why they are so eager to refer Jewish Einstein as a German. I getting harder and harder to assume good faith for part of them.


 * At Israel and USA, where Jews from all the communities around the world are living (especially in Israel), by the vast majority of the Jews (and i really believe that in the same extent by non-Jews), the term German-Jew is only referring to the country (or to the community at this country) in which someone was born and never have any connection to his ethnic or even non-Jewish cultural background (i.e. it means that some one is a German/Poland / Hungary and etc -born Jew, that used , for years (but not for eons) ,to identify someone as culturally "Ashkenazi" or "Sephardic"-and today it became less and less important) .Any way , when the average reader looking at the ethnic origin clause he is referring to some one historical origin and I assume that most of us can agree on this.

--Gilisa 12:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, It doesn't appear we will ever get agreement on ethnicity. Rather than get into another heated debate, let's just take the entry out of the infobox. --teb728 19:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Teb I have seen your continued attempts on this page to strip Enstein of being Jewish. However, not only do I still believe that his Jewishness should still be mentioned in the opening paragraph, it most certainly should not be taken out of the info box.  We know him being Jewish was the most important bond he considered.  As for his Germaness being menioned in it, you can argue that, I'm fine with it, but he was Jewish and that was his ethnicity without doubt and there is no need for it to be removed, it has nothing to do with his so called German ethnicity. If you want it removed from the info box then lets move it to the opening paragraph, his work for the creation of the State of Israel and other Jewish causes in undeniable, and he is very notable for being the Jewish scientist from Germany who lost his German citizenship for being a Jew and then when on to help the United States develop the theories for the atomic bomb.  Epson291 00:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is absolutely false that I have attempted to strip Einstein of being Jewish, and I cannot imagine what would give you such a notion. What I have opposed is:
 * Listing his religion in the infobox, whether Jewish or anything else and
 * Saying in the intro that his family was Jewish. (That is not at all notable).
 * I am also weakly opposed to saying in the first sentence that he was Jewish because IMO that is not sufficiently notable. But this applies only to the first sentence, and if there were a consensus for it there (which IMO there is not), I would have no heartburn over it.
 * Other than that I have always been in favor of mentioning his Jewishness. Indeed, in the initial discussion on the infobox I said that his Nationality should be “Jewish and German” rather than Swiss and American. Outvoted on that, I proposed that his Ethnicity be added as “Jewish and German.” And I was glad on February 27 when you took up my proposal. When Gilisa objected, I tried changing your initial listing of “German and Jewish” to “Jewish and German.” And I was content when R9tgokunks changed it to “German Jew.” Gilisa, however, seems unwilling to consider any compromise. And rather than get into another long, heated, fruitless debate over his German ethnicity, I propose removing the Ethnicity entry (even though I originally proposed adding it). --teb728 02:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC) (By the way, he did not “help the United States develop the theories for the atomic bomb.”) --teb728 02:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Teb728,There is only one agreement: he was a Jew, his sub group was an Ashkenazi one (i.e like more than 80% of the Jewish people today and 90% before the holocaust and this term refer to the most Jews of Europe, USA,Israel (nowadays), Canada, Australia and New Zealand, South-America and South-Africa). thats mean, that you can only put "Jewish" within his ethnic clause. I had no objection for deleting this clause before, but now it seems to me that this is the only way to make it sure that Einstein will be mention as a Jew (which is not of less importance then to mention that he grew up and lived in Germany, Swiss, Italy and USA), so I storngly against taking this clause out. It is really sounds odd to me that you are willing to delete this clause only because his "German ethnicity " which is very controversial ( at least, as i already wrote many times)-no argue about that, wouldn't be mentioned , but his consensus ethnicity (i.e. Jewish) would be...is it a modern version to the "Judgement of Solomon"?. [and regarding to your answer to Epson291, I guess that he meant that Einstein push the USA to arm with nuclear weapon and had a lot of influence over many Jewish and non-Jewish scientists which worked together to make it out (or even advise to them) , any way -the theory of relativity is a scientific solid base for the development of the nuclear weapon (E=MC² means that you can make a lot of damage with a small amount of mater) and Einstein asked the American president to use this knowledge to built a project which will put an end to Nazi Germany - even if it will cost with the elimination of Germany. More,even if Epson was wrong (and  I dont think so, at least not a major mistake) this is really dont make his arguments weaker]--Gilisa 07:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "the French will say I am a Jew" this is a perversion of the quote  "If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare that I am a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German and Germany will declare that I am a Jew." Einstein knew damn well who would call him a JEW (and how to make a joke). (Address to the French Philosophical Society at the Sorbonne (6 April 1922); French press clipping (7 April 1922) [Einstein Archive 36-378] and Berliner Tageblatt (8 April 1922) [Einstein Archive 79-535])68.60.68.203 18:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Teb728, thats fine with me, but if the Jewish as an ethnictiy stays by itself it isn't exactly inncorrect or misleading, with the citizenship is shown right above. Though I would say that [ironically] as a side note, before the War, German Jews were the most assimilated, of all of Europe's Jewish population. I would though say that German would certainly be an ethnicity of Einstein (even though for the horror the Germans did to Jews, Gilisa). The whole Jewish thing is a special thing, since it is not mearly a religion like Islam or Christianity or an ethnicity like "Italian American" or something, considering Jews were a nationless people for 2000 years (while still being a nation). (Though I would normally opposed to menioning Jewishness in anywhere but "born to Jewish parents" unless it is in some way notable to the person, which in his case it is many times over. And I would agree with you it would be wrong to put his religion as Judaism or anything else for that matter as his religion story is quite complicated, but thats a esaily established consensus. Anyways, I am grudginly fine with having it just in the infobox verus the main paragraph, though it needs to be mentioned somewhere in the first bit either way, though just if any of us agree on it won't probably matter too much in the long run. Oh, and as for the comment about the atomic bomb, I was referring to the assitence he lent to the U.S.'s project, at the very least the famous letter in 1939, but either way my other information stands.    Epson291 18:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Epson291, Jews were assimilate only when they get their short lived emancipation .Before of it they were isolated from the non-Jewish population for many generations (Einstein family originally came from the Jewish communities of eastren Europe few generations before he was born) .1600 years out of 3500-4000 years of existence, the Jews were forcibly nationless ,but still shared , even due the exile, common history (i.e. most of the Jews immigrate to north Africa and European countries from Spain around the 13-15AC) had common tones and very similar customs or even food (חמין:"Chamin" which is a good example for a such), more important , they remain as a very distinct ethnic group. They assimilate when they were tiered of being hunted ,and understood that their children's will truly be equal only if they will be born as non Jewish. Under this heavy hostility from the non-Jewish population some Jews even developed self anti-Semite (as Woody Allen himself call it, this is well known problem of the Jewish people even though self-hate exist in other minority ethnic groups for smaller extents) or other complexes as a result of their hard life there. What Im trying to say is that many Jews don't really had (or filed they had) the choice to remain Jewish .by the way, the term anti-Semite was coined by Wilhelm Marr long before Hitler , when Jews allready start to assimilate (short after and probably because of the emancipation were given), published in a big news paper , and was targeted to the notion of hating the Jews because they were of different ethnic group , i.e , different historical origin. When you are writing that Einstein ethnicity was German you actually said that he have the "same story" (historical talking) as the Germans. This is not correct and Im not the only one who think like that. a Jew can be British, even if he is a very practising Jew -he can be British in many aspects : passport , loyalty , language and culture. But it have nothing with his ethnicity, I believe in Pluralism i.e. the notion that many different ethnic groups can live in the very same country , sometimes dominated by one ethnic group , and they can all have the same loyalty ,culture and etc .This is what happening now in Canada , USA and French (but now French trying to change it).--Gilisa 20:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There are two primary reasons for mentioning Einstein's Jewish heritage: (1) it helps explain his emigration from Germany, and (2) it helps explain his connection with Israel, both of which are mentioned in the article. I think the current article has this just about right. — DAGwyn 23:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK Epson291, I will not try to remove the Ethnicity field. I just wish Gilisa were as willing to compromise as you. (And I think it ironic that he says his father “was from a long German Jewish ancestry,” but he is not willing to say that Einstein was a German Jew.) --teb728 07:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Please make the distinction between ethnicity and ethnic sub groups. My father was an ethnic Jew which came from the German Jewish community, i refer to him as a "German" Jew with no connection to his ethnic origin- I tried to explain it many times before. Any way, about culture- for my understanding , and I think that it make a lot of sense , it have implications for the ethncity of one only when it come with the "right" historical context (thats what ethnic culture is all about, otherwise it is far more related with unidentified civilian society-like this that French is trying to be). More -few facts (which are only for your knowledge), Einstein referd to Jewish peopole as "my brothers" and said that his moral values , which was extremly important to him , was part of his Jewish identity (in which he was praude).Oh, and his second wife was Jewish. I don't understand why only when it comes to Jewish great people there are so many difficulties that being made so their ethnic identity wont be mention or would be mention in short or in non notable place.Im not looking for a "fight" nor do i enjoy it, but, I never tried to claim that Riemann , Gauss (which his achivments are unbeliveable) or Beethoven , for example , were Jewish-but on the other hand I'm not willing to "give" Jewish great persons or to share them with the Germans just like that.--Gilisa 19:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK that is fine with me, however Gili did make very valid points, though Gili I don't think the issue is so cut and dry. But Ashkenazim did found modern (and originally secular) Zionism as a result of Haskalah and the Age of Enlightenment which orignally sought to asslimlate Jews and was born out of the failure of that.  Einstein's family was evidently very assimlated into German society, also evident by Einstein's lack of religion.  I am sure Einstein reconized it's failure, considering he was a Zionist far before the National Socialists gained power. But all of that is speculation, which is why I'm saying it isn't cut and dry. [And Gili, I wish you a chag kasher v'sameach (a happy and kosher holiday) [as it is now Passover]. And teb, as for the thing about his father's ancestry, even though many Jews had (and sadly past tense) a long history in Germany, Poland, etc... they were often not considerd German, Polish, etc..., even after the so called "Jewish emancipation". Epson291 11:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Epson291, it is cut and dry -think on it. Jews lost their ethnicity (i.e wont pass it) only trough their non-Jewish offspring's (result of assimilation) actually, they assimilate because they knew that if they truly want to change their ethnicity this is the only way ,and so some of them prefer to married gentiles. Any way, Chag kasher v'sameach leacha ve lecol beit israel (חג כשר ושמח לך ולכל בית ישראל). I guess that you will have to do it one day longer (pessache galuyot)...--Gilisa 19:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed archive == ==

I propose to archive everything above except the sections "Citations and Copyright Violations" and "Objection to refering Einstein ethnic origin as 'German -Jew'," which seem still active. Does anyone want to retain any other sections on the active talk page? --teb728 08:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Poll on Ethnicity field of infobox == ==

Let’s end the debate by voting which ethnic labels should go in the Ethnicity field of the infobox. For each proposed label, please vote whether to include it or not. --teb728 21:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just have to say that this poll is hilarious! Do y'all know about this Einstein quote?: "If my theory of relativity is proven correct, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare that I am a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German and Germany will declare that I am a Jew. -Einstein " (see: Americanheritage.com) Dang! Einstein was so smart he's even predicted this debate! QuizzicalBee 19:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The subject is closed, new votes will not acount.--Gilisa 10:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish

 * Include. Not only was Einstein of Jewish descent, more significantly he involved himself in Zionist and other Jewish causes. --teb728 21:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Include. For the same reasons as above.  He was an ethnic Jew, who was very dedicated to his identity of that, a man who dedicated his life, from the early 20's to the 50's, to the reestabliishment of the Jewish homeland, and other Jewish causes. I am (and at the same time not) surprised on this artcle the number of people who don't want to reconize his Jewishness, and for another user to drag this to a poll once again (see the archives).  Him being Jewish should be indentified in the main paragraph for all he did for the Jewish people. Epson291 21:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include. It's important background for at least some of his biography. --Stephan Schulz 19:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include He was Jewish and is universally so described.--Newport 12:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include Obviously.--Runcorn 20:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include Is anyone suggesting he wasn't?--Brownlee 22:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include How can you not do so?--R613vlu 13:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong exclude Ethnicity Jewish? That is racism of the worst kind. Jewish is a honorable religion, but not an ETHNICITY -- that is Nazi-terminologie! Einstein was GERMAN, that is why in his last years he only spoke German and defended Germany, pointing out, that many Nazis are German, but that most Germans are not Nazis! And just for the record: Einstein moved to the German part of Switzerland (accepting Citizenship was mandatory in those times) to avoid the draft of the German Imperial Army, after the war he "became" a citizin of Germany again. Many Americans went to Canada to avoid the Vietnam draft, were/are they any less "American"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.140.87.229 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Please notice that only registered users can participate (its right for any poll),thats, to avoid double votings and etc (also, before one is allowed to edit Einstein's article he/she have to be a registered and a known user for a time).as you didn't sign your votings on this poll(which I already opposed and I don't see as alegitimate one), your voice cant be counted.I also strongly recommend you to reformulate your comments which can look hostile and unsincere.More, the issue of Einstein's ethnicity is allready closed.--Gilisa 19:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you could find many people who would say so! :-) DAGwyn 03:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

German

 * Include. First of all let me clarify the meaning of the English word “ethnicity.” The Merriam-Webster Online dictionary defines ethnicity in terms of the word ethnic, which it defines in terms of a combination of factors, including racial and cultural among others. So “ethnicity” does not mean the same as “ethnic origin.” Einstein was thoroughly assimilated into German culture. He married a gentile woman, and until the Nazis he tried to be as German as he could. Even late in his life his culture remained basically German: For example he wrote the draft of his last speech in German. --teb728 21:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * teb728, there are several inaccurises in what you wrote. Firstly, he was not "trying to be as "German" as he could", I'm not sure where you picked up on that, (though he was German), if I believe correctly he had (before the NAZIs), revoked his German citizenship voluntarily once before in favour of Swiss citzenship.  As for writing his last speech in German (For Israel's independence day no less), German was his first language.  And, as for marrying a non-Jewish women, whom he later divorced, I'm not sure how that affected his bond with the Jewish people (or the German people for that matter).  He are some of his quotes....
 * In 1918: "I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever." Letter to Alfred Kneser (7 June 1918); Doc. 560 in The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein Vol. 8
 * In 1952: On November 18, 1952, he wrote to David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, speaking of his relationship to the Jewish people, writing, ". . . my relationship to the Jewish people has become my strongest human bond, ever since I became fully aware of our precarious situation among the nations of the world."


 * Weak include . Nonetheless, he was an ethnic german, based upon his birth, his family, and his language, and heritage.  I am fine with it, even if he revoked his German citizenship once, and had it revoked again for being a Jew, he was still German. Normally ethnicity should not be menioned in the opening area, but with Einstein there is particular reason for it, and putting him being a Jew in the info box, was a compromise from the main article. And more than a Jew, he was still also German, though and this is why it's weak, did not really consider himself German.  Epson291 21:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose Maybe just Jew for ethnictity, when German and Swiss citizenship is clearly written right above it anyways. As well it meniones, other then his German citizenship, that he is German born on the first line of the page, along with the German pronoucation of his name, all in the first line of the page. I read what DAGwyn wrote after, and I tend to agree his German ethnicity, is not in any way important to menion it in the info box, and constoversial at that (since his German citizenship was taken away from him), and no way related to his life and contrabutions and generally ethnicity shouldn't be placed unless relevant. (Such as him being a Jew is).  Epson291 22:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Neutral or Exclude (depending on how one wants to look at it....) Einstein's ethnicity is just too complex to include in a word (or even two) in an infobox.  Due to his role in history, the circumstances of his life, his own character and intellectual ideals, he is most accurately described as having been "born in Germany to a family of Jewish ancestry" and IMO anything less than that is, at best, a half-truth.  Text like that is best left to the first sentence of the introductory paragraph rather than than somewhere else.  As such, I can't support EITHER "German" or "Jewish" or even both in an ethnicity section of an infobox because they fail any attempt at accurate summarization. Geeman 09:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Include. He was a classical German (Jewish-German) researcher for much of his live. He was born in Germany, spoke German, and published in the German scientific press.--Stephan Schulz 20:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Exclude He was born German by nationality,and it says so in the infobox. It is thus right to call him a German Jew. That does not make him an ethnic German.--Newport 12:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Exclude To give him German ethnicity is to twist the meaning of ethnicity.--Runcorn 20:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Exclude The arguments for exclusion seem muchstronger than those for inclusion.--Brownlee 22:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak exclude Depends on what you think ethnicity means. He was born a German Jew, but that means german by nationality, not necessarily ethnicity I think.--R613vlu 13:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong include Albert Einstein was a German of Jewish Belief, he was born to German parents of Jewish belief, just like I was born to parents of Catholic belief -- but neither Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Hindu, Moslem and so on is my ETHNICITY! How absurd... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.140.87.229 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment:First, wellcome to Wikipedia, and I enojyd reading the contributions that you made in such a short time about other German related topics.For the issue:Your 'voting's' (i.e. unsigned)at this poll (which I opposed)suggest that, unfortunately, you are not familiar with Judaism and Jewish people at all.The other option, which I exclude of course, is that you are simply a racist/anti-semitic:1. youre saying that the Jewish people are not an ethnic group nor do they can be one 2. the Germans are.i.e.:Judaism is only a religion and a cultural thing, with no ethnical element (i.e. group history end etc)-> Jews are not a race (you wrote that the Jews are not an ethnic group, which is a weak claim that relate to other subjects but not to this talk page. you also wrote this sentence (for me it sounds abit demagogic/self-righteous ): "Ethnicity Jewish? That is racism of the worst kind. Jewish is a honorable religion, but not an ETHNICITY -- that is Nazi-terminologie!.." , for me its very clear, than, that ethnicity=race for you)->I understand that you actually meaning that ethnicity is also should be a racial  or a dynastical thing[and this argument (i.e. not those of the Nzis, which also calimed that the Germans are the peoples of a super race and that humans should be grade by their race or/and ethnicity) is not a racist one-so that's not what made your claims seeing bad, I can accept this very common view as long as you don't also claming that to refer Einstein as an ethnic Jew is a racist thing to do]->Jews can never be an ethnic group for themselvs .So, if you are saying that ethnicity is a matter of race, or heritage, and then saying that calling Einstein an ethnic Jew is a racisem (now, that's really strange-here you are hinting that we refer to Einstein by his race or by his heritage when we consider him as a Jew), but consider him as an ethnic German is not racisem (but you are also hinting that he is probably a German by his race and/ or by his heritage (which is also not true) and so by his ethnicity) -than,its very confusing/odd. And regarding the German people-I'm tired from hearing slogans about how much they are "anti-Nazis" or\ and "like Jews" or that most of them didnt support the Nazi regime (....), save me this kind of nonsense which cant support your claims any way.More, you're saying that : Einstein defended Germany by saying that many Nazis was Germans but most of the Germans were not (or are not?-please make it clear) and that he said so because he was German(i.e:according to you only German could said such a thing or only a German should???? what you actually mean -explain it soon)-can you explain us, please, the connection you just made between what he said and his ethnic identity? just for your knowledge, there are holocaust survivors which would said the same (but not most of them), partly because they want to believe so. and any ways, Einstein left Germany at the right time (1934) + most/all of his german friends were scientific geniuses and etc which many of them were from the very, very very, rare kind of Germans which oppose the Nazi regime (like Max Planck, which his son was sent to prison as he opposed the Nazis) and any why, didn't represent the average German nor did they represent all of the german scientists which part of them were committed Nazis .many Historians and people that lived back then will tell that the vast majority of the germans were Nazis, at least by their views).Jews do consider themselves for being an ethnic group -and objectively they are, by any mean (a good example for you is that the Jewish people (Ashkenazis&Sephardic) do have agenetic profile which is specific to them only .any way, as a Jew, your claims, that the Jews are actually not a people (among with other claims), sounds to me as a very racist and humiliating ones, even though I'm not saying that you did it on purpose and I'm 200% sure that you meant no harm ). Considering an eminent Jewish scientist as a German-after all the crimes that the Germans done against Jews and against Humanity, and after Einstein himself cut off any contact with the Germans as a people and vice versa-its not only sounds cynical, playing dumb and etc ,but it also can looks like a racism of the worst kind.You are also suggesting, in fact,  that the people who made the holocaust (killing 6 millions Jews and who knows how many scientific revolutions with them),i.e. , non Jewish Germans, and the Jews which born in Germany and were their victims, long before Hitler, are the same by their essence or so (Depended on how important  you consider the ethnic identity -to me it seems that its very important for you),It might sounds for some  as a very politically correct argument, and so as a good one, but I afraid that not for others, which can interpret such an arguments as being hostile, hypocritical  or etc (by mistake), and in any case this is not a good way for one to show how enlightened he/she is.So, while I truely cherish your sensitivity against anti-semite and Nazi-terminologie, I think that you must understand that blaming every one which support the exclusion  of "German" from the ethnic entry for using a " Nazi-terminologie" could sounds sarcastic for some,and to prize (and it sounds like this:he was a great scientist->than, he was German(...)),in the absence of any reasonable explantion, the Germans with Einstein (and to steal him from the Jewish people by doing so), is not a good solution against "Nazi-terminologie" or Nazi actions.Thats why I oppose this irritatiting poll from the first place, it seems that about religions,minorits and etc-a poll should never take place, this is just an open invitation for racisem of all kinds, even when there are not bad intentions.So, actually, while you had no intention to do so ,and now I mean it, you gave all the right reasons why not to consider Einstein as an ethnic german.Any ways, this subject is already closed-Einstein is only Jewish by his ethnicity-and so it stays.�--Gilisa 09:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)�
 * Just to make it clear and to avoid any provoking comments: for me ethnicity is also strongly related with dynasty, rather than race-so an Ethiopian/ Yamane/ Georgian Jews, which are not Jewish by their genetics (contrary to most of the Jewish communities) are an ethnical Jews because of their Jewish dynasty which were formed through a long and a local process of ethnogensis (now they dont even remember that they have a non-Jewish background, only genetic studies and historical accounts remained it).More, anti-Semite not always was based exclusively or mostly upon race, in Spain Jews were persecuted because of their religion- so, stating that Jews are not a race not necessarily meaning that one's is not an anti-Semitic (some times its on the contarary- I have many exampels).And any way, there are people which have difficulties with admiting that ethnicity is also based upon heritage, I dont, since I dont think that one should feel threatened/ discomfort /insecurity or to be discriminated, where ever he/she live, because he/ she is of a certain race or heritage and I'm afraid that the Nazis and their successors wont agree with me--Gilisa 12:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose the poll
Does anybody have such a strong objection to the current status quo (Inforbox Ethnicity=Jewish) that they can't live with it? As a general policy I oppose to attaching ethnic labels to individuals, although in this particular case there are some good reasons for doing so (which I alluded to previously), but those reasons do not justify anything different from the status quo, except possibly removing that field from the Infobox altogether. — DAGwyn 19:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I oppose the poll for reasons stated before. Epson291 21:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for your comments. I offered the poll because already 42KB of this talk page had been devoted to the Ethnicity field without getting anywhere. (And it was still growing!) I thought that a poll would result in a conclusion (at the cost of a bit more verbiage). --teb728 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not just settle on having Jewish as the only ethnicity? There really isn't a huge need to mention he is of German ethnicity when you consider he was born in Germany (Had he born let's say in, Britian, then menionting it would be more paramount of a concern). Epson291 09:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

teb728,There is allready a conclusion (i.e infobox :ethnicity=Jewish) and if we look on it now, you are the only one which , God knows why, cant accept it.--Gilisa 05:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

teb728 ,I ask you to stop it right now - there should be no poll about his Jewish ethnicity because there is no doubt that he was (even you admit it) - you are going too far and I can find not even one good reason for that.At any case Einstein so called German ethnicity will never enjoy a consensus. I really dont think that a poll about one's ethnic origin should take place and it truely never happend. At most, ethnic origin is something that can be debated and this happend only when it come to Jews or when one's ethnic origins are unclear (for exmple,when its not known if one British artist was from Japan or from Chine).I explained my self alot of times , but it seems that you just cant burry the current status quo which is the only one which can made consesnus.to your claims:as far as I know ethnic culture refer to tradition that passes from one generation to another (all your claims about married with gentile women (which wasnt german by the way) or others-have nothing to do with that , and any way his second wife was Jewish) I dont even know if the Germans had an ethnic tradition.ethinicty defenition refers to the same ethnic origin (same ancestry and thats what some dictionries mean when they choose the word "race") and/or ethnic culture (tradition with certain customs)) that being passed from one generation to other.this valid for many dictionaries , studies or even Wikipedia "ethnicity" values at different languages ,and I allready prove you that (but it seems that you forgot) .The fact that he wrote his last words in German mean absolutly nothing since this was his native tone (he also speak it when he was at Swiss.by the way ,many Jews in many countries including ultra orthodox Jewish of USA speaking as first tone the native one, its not unik only to Jews but to any immigrant or minority groups which allready have native-born young generation), even practising Jewish holocaust servivors spoke German , sometimes, to their last day.Some facts :Einstein calld the Jewish peopole "my brothers". he said that a Jew will remain a Jew even if he will stop to see himself as such. He saw himself as adescent of Abraham (because he is the father of the Jewish peopole) and said that his moral values are a result of his Jewishness.many Jews married to non-Jewish but considerd themselvs as fully Jewish even if not practising.His Jewishness is saparted from his German culture background and as the Jewish identity is very different from the german it is only fair to keep the status-quo.Einstein himself said that if his theories will proven true then the Germans will call him a German but if they wont then they will call him a Jew.In the 30' he state that he is no longer a German (probably not a cultural one and evidently not a citizen).he never said that he is/was an ethnic German and he never said that he is a "German again".At any ethnic group the members normaly seeing themselves as from the same ancestry and etc, the Germans didnt saw the Jews , at any given time , as being of the same ethnic group.As I see it teb728 giving the wrong exmples or put them in the wrong way.I recomend you all to read the comments at "Objection to refering Einstein ethnic origin as "German -Jew" " and to oppose the poll.(sorry for the bad english-Im not a native speaker)

--Gilisa 19:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to a poll. I don't think I'll agree with the results, but the poll is at least valuable in discovering the majority view here. Geeman 09:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Geeman, Well. the facts are that he is already mentioned as being born, lived and been a citizen of Germany. He also was born into a Jewish family, and as the Jewish ethnicity is not merely a matter of religion - else, it is a very complex identity, as it is for a minority group which was nation less and isolated for a very long time (and Jews , even where they are totally assimilated and have a full emancipation (USA is the best example ever ,and by far , since the exile)are evidently have an ethnic group standing for itself as it comes to there  special origins and history which is not understood   by Teb728). take the combination of German born +German residence +German citizen ship + Jewish ethnicity = "German -born into a Jewish family (and this can be valid even to converted Jews where you should add an up to date religion clause)" .if you are willing to put this sentence in the open paragraph -I would agree to delete the ethnicity from the info box, the Jewishness of Einstein is too important but it doesn't stop some users for trying to hide it in many different ways (and I don't point to you in any way).As for the German ethnic identity many people could be confused and think "German which born to a Non-Jewish family" ,or mixed, when you put it together with the Jewish ethnicity- in different from Canadian /American and other countries which are multi ethnical. So, it shouldn't be there .Let's get into an agreement which its meaning will be "German -born into a Jewish* family" and finish this debate.
 * possibly non practicing but which kept on Jewish traditional elements, and as far as I know wasn't an assimilated family as Einstein mother opposed his marriage with Mileve since she was from other religion--Gilisa 11:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was surprised to see that his ethnicity wasn't even mentioned in the first paragraph. The fact is Einstein left Germany because he was a Jew. He gave many speeches in which he identified himself as a Jew and as a Zionist. He dedicated a book "to the Jews of Germany" and renounced his German citizenship. The fact that he's Jewish, needs to be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Lizrael 14:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Ending the poll== ==

3 weeks have passed since the poll (which I opposed to then and still do) begin, .Not much have changed and the poll dosn't seems active any longer, the status quo shuold stay as it is, i.e. : only Jewish at the ethnic entry.Reasons were give, very good ones, and the discussion shouldnt start over again.The poll results showd that only Schulz and TEB support the inclusion of "German" in the ethnic entry (one more didn't sign and so cant be counted, unless we want users to double voting).The others (5 voters) supported the exclusion of "German", few more opposed the poll .so, the case is closed.--Gilisa 19:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment without no topic or signature on the "opposing the poll" section
// I find this issue very strange. The very idea of a label "ethnicity", and no clear definition, is quite absurd. Maybe it has to do with the American obsession with "race" labels, and their self-definition as an immigrants' country, I don't know... Meanig it seems to be particularily American to me.

If you look at the article for N.Bohr, he is just Danish (label in box), but the text talks about jewish heritage.

I just wonder how humans who consider themselves "Jewish" and live in Germany today, and have not recently immigrated ( i.e. from the ex-Soviet Union ) AND are familiar with the subtleties of the (particularily American?) use of the label "ethnicity" would "classify" themselves. Perhaps one should do a poll, doing field research for clarification... - And how they would have done at various times in pre-NS history ( concepts and "identities" aren't necessarily stable over time, esp. in pre-WWI- and pre-N.S. times "Jews" apparently generally wished to be assimilated and not-so-distinct from other Germans, which in turn is not a clear-cut either-or thing, but a whole spectrum of shades, that "assimilation" )? And how A.E. would have responded at various stages of his life, esp. before he had to flee the country...

- By the way, having a particular "ethn." identity, or such label affixed to you, is not the only reason to be persecuted, and was not the only reason to be killed in N.S. dictatorship. Fleeing is no aequivalent to cutting ties and hence doesn't prove a thing as such.

- To my mind what really matters most for identities is language ( your main and mother l., which you would use in dreams and memories and phantasies and emergency shouts), because you cannot think but in and through a particular language, and express a lot of your emotions through it. Next would be physical appearance, which is an objective fact and you will notice it every time you look into a mirror; and the whole complex of culture. So it is "mind and soul" (with lg. a clearly identifiable core element) first, then physique, then "all the ways of living and feeling and thinking" third, in that order. One-word labels are neither adaequate nor very helpful ( except for some political purposes...).

- A.E. was celebrated with great aplomp and a lot of (mainly, I think) goverment/tax money in 2005 in Germany, and certainly no-one would have thought of him other than "a German" ( who also happened to be a Jew, which in his times... etc. ). That doesn't establish "a truth" any more than anything you wrote above, it just shows that the whole issue is hopelessly confused and terms depend on points of view and cultural bias ( i.e. your own ! ) etc. Bye 147.142.186.54 13:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The first line (again) == ==

I hope this doesn’t trigger yet another round of fruitless discussion, but… How do other people feel about changing “German-born” to “German-Jewish-born”? Such a change would satisfy my concern that the first sentence be brief and defensible against additions of other labels such as Swiss and American. I previously proposed something similar, but Geeman objected for reasons I do not understand. Perhaps this is something we can agree on. --teb728 21:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking now about a new formulation which be something like a "German Jewish scientist" (I'm still not sure but in the next few days I will since I promised Schulz with a quick answer)which any one could interpret according to his/her understanding about ethnicity and etc (Stephan Schulz suggested that it would be "German scientist born to a Jewish family" (a formulation which I first asked him about)."German-Jewish born" isn't a very good definition for my understanding (and I can be wrong as my English is limited ).And any ways -any solution should be on the open paragraph only and should be widely accepted . --Gilisa 07:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * People can make there own judgments on ethnicity and nationality this way Epson291 07:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Which way? (and I fixed my last comment here-please read it a gain...:-)--Gilisa 07:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC) Epson291, forgot about my last comment (which is now striked) I think that we better live the status quo as it is .It get to my knowledge that this is the best way to obtein Einstein Jewishness along with his German history in a very balanced way , not ideal , but there is nothing better for now.--Gilisa 07:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Archived all the Einstein ethnic entry discussions == ==

The debate about Einstein's ethnic entry have last too long. A poll, which was first suggested by TEB728, is already ended with a clear results: 5-6  opposed mentioning Einstein as an ethnic German (Geeman is possibly the 6, but he is against any other decision than his suggestion about re-formulating the intro, asuggestion which under different circumstances than those I would support), 4 (3 actually , since it include Epson291 which already voted at the poll), including me, think that it was better if such a poll wouldn’t been done- (for many reasons, here is part of mine: facts are not for a democratic vote , the  German link of Einstein is truly already mentioned at least 3 times in the info box, a poll is an open invitation for hostile arguments and opinions against minorities and different ethnic groups and etc)  .only 2 voted for including Einstein as having both German and Jewish  ethnicities ,'the third' one shouldn’t be counted since : 1. And this is the only reason for which I didn’t count his/her voice (I don’t really need to explain, didn’t I?): he/she didn’t sign, counting his/her voice will allow for any other user which already signed to vote again and again (and any way, but less important, if we follow the Einstein article-only users which are active enough time to have the right for editing his article ) 2.And I didn’t used this reason for excluding his/her voice: arguments which are not to the point, and easily could sound as provoking, manipulating and/or offensive, even tough not with bad intention, like that the Jews are not an ethnic group while the Germans do, and that Einstein didn’t truly was a Jew since he was only of a German of Jewish belief (but realy belived only in the God of Spinoza). Whether this kind of claims came from an ignorance about the Jewish people/ Jewish history/ethnic identities and etc, or whether they came out of an agenda calling to Germanize any Jewish scientist (including Jewish scientist which born outside Germany but their parents primary language was German-as Michelson which born in Poland (and so did his parents) in a city that was under Prussian occupation or Szilard which born to a Jewish family in Hungary and etc) or just from a racist/ ante Semitic views(*)–I don’t know, nor does it make any difference –Wikipedia have its own quality standards and when someone giving explanations which are extremely  controversial / offensive/ without any evidential base to support it and etc- than his/her voice shouldn't be counted. Before you all attack me for saying so, let me to explain it with an example: if someone would claim that Einstein should be mentioned as only one of a two scientists team (i.e. him and mileva) which came up with the relativity – no matter how many users would vote in favor of such a bad idea, at any given poll, still it wouldn’t make such an argument for being more than a merely an extremely speculative bad statement / pseudo biography –and this would defiantly be bad for the Wikipedia quality standards. '''For conclusions: the debate have already last too long and already having with results-Einstein entry status quo will remain the same as it is: i.e. only Jewish. Every comment on the talk page that have to do with it would be archived soon.Case closed.'''Best--Gilisa 19:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC) (*)option which I exclude of course and you all should, as we assuming only good faith.