Talk:Albert Pierrepoint/Archive 1

Corbett / Corbitt
82.0.51.190: thanks for making that change of Harry Corbett to James Corbitt -- I had visions of our Albert hanging Sooty! Arwel 20:43, 17 September 2003 (UTC)

Black humour
There seems to be just a little too much of it in this article. In particular referring to those executed as his 'clients' or is this some sort of standard terminology? Gurkha 22:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I was wondering about this myself - client doesn't really seem the best term to use, unless it is one which is often used in British executions... Does anyone know? Con  D  e  m Talk 10:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a euphemism but not an uncommon one. See http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,1748084,00.html Idiomatically it's typically British. I wouldn't call it humour so much, just the way that us Brits refer to some things obliquely. Jooler 08:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC) (leter: similar usage here http://www.oldhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/209/209590_oldham_drinkers_were_hanging_on_alberts_every_word.html - I don't know whether Pierrepoint himself used the term, but I suspect he did) Jooler 08:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Statistics
Is the statistics section really neccessary; it makes thar article look abit busy. Wright123 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I meant to comment on that, you have to scroll a huge amount to the left. I briefly tried to fix it but couldn't get the layout right. Jooler 22:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So can we remove it from the article and just put it in the talk page. It's great that someone took the time to do it but, until it can be made into a more 'concise' chart, it doesnt look right in the article.
 * Depends on your font size, of course, but I've no objection to moving it. Maybe to Locations of executions conducted by Albert Pierrepoint? -- Arwel (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I support that idea. Shall we leave it for 5 days so that people can object to it they don't agree? Wright123 16:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * MovedWright123 18:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Biography
The Biography section is now quite large. I don't think that any of it needs getting rid of. But, i do think that it would be a good idea to split it up a bit more. I would do it, but im not an expert on Albert. Thanks Wright123 19:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

BBC links
BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5035690.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2006/04/27/pierrepoint_lasthangman_feature.shtml

BBC interview with Pierrepoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/realmedia/features/pierrepoint.ram

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.132.37.219 08:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

How come A. Pierrepoint could not claim to be unapplicaple for hanging of James Corbitt ??
There is no such word as "unapplicaple".

Surely if a hangman discovered that the person he was supposed to hang was a friend of his there should have been the possibility for him to declare himself as too involved to perform the execution? Maybe this possibility existed but Albert decided against it ? 89.8.39.9 00:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Answers: (a) Pierrepoint did not know that the man about to be executed was his customer "Tish" until a prison warden, on the day before the execution, told him so. At that moment it would have been a bit troublesome to withdraw from the job: The authorities would have either have had to find a replacement executioner at the shortest possible notice, or to stay the execution until someone had been found.
 * (b) Pierrepoint always said that Corbitt was not a "friend", just a customer of his pub whom he knew by his nickname only.
 * (c) Pierrepoint was in the habit of saying that when he entered the condemned cell, it was not Albert Pierrepoint who came in but the arm of the law. He was obviously able, to a high degree, to block out all his personal feelings. Call it artificial schizophrenia, if you like.
 * (d) I think I read somewhere that an executioner who declined to do a specific job - except when he was unavailable because employed at the same time elsewhere - risked his standing with the authorities.--Kauko56 10:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

ad (d): it was Syd Dernley, who wrote in his book, that declining a job could lead to withrawal from the list of executioners. Jonny1044

No Definite Proof There In his autobiography, Albert Pierrepoint (FAR more savvy with the system than Dernley) states that turning down an engagement would NOT automatically lead to removal from the Home Office list. A quick look through Steve Fielding's "The Executioner's Bible" for example will reveal plenty of incidences when British hangmen were forced to decline execution offers for various reasons, with no consequences. --UD75 (talk) 22:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no way the British government would have fired Pierrepoint for turning down a job. He was the best hangman in the world, for whatever that was worth. He was sent to hang all those Nazis because he was the best. When he did quit, they begged him not to. The best guess for why he didn't refuse the job is that he didn't know who he was being hired to execute. In fact, it was apparently Corbitt himself who let Pierrepoint know, in a message he relayed via the warden the day before. By that time, it would have been almost impossible for him to back out even if he'd wanted to. Jsc1973 (talk) 04:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

A point I would also like to make, from the POV of the condemned, is that if indeed Albert backed out, Corbitt would still have hanged. One of the main duties of the Assistant Executioner was to take over if the Number One couldn't finish the job, either the whole thing or simply having to run to the other side of the trap and throw the lever at the last minute. --UD75 (talk) 16:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

"Chief Executioner"
I've had to do a slight edit as it appears that someone was a little confused at the two different usages of the term "Chief Executioner" - there's the title of Chief Executioner as in "Chief Executioner of the United Kingdom", and the role of Chief Executioner, i.e. the person who was in charge of conducting the execution - calculating the drop, hooding the condemned, putting the noose around the neck, and pulling the lever to open the trap; Antonio Mancini's in 1941 was the first execution where Albert played this role, previously he was an Assistant Executioner, responsible for pinioning the condemned's legs with a belt so he couldn't try to save himself from the drop. Executions in England normally had at least one Assistant Executioner (and sometimes as many as three, as new applicants for the job were tried out to see if they had the stomach for it), but in Scotland and Ireland there was not normally an assistant (the authorities would have had to pay his fees, and they were loath to do this!). In England, it was normally the under-sheriff of the county concerned who hired the Chief Executioner, while the prison governor hired the assistant. -- Arwel (talk) 00:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

''You are wrong to state that an assistant was "not normally" used in Scotland and Ireland, because the authorities were reluctant to pay. In Ireland, the executioner generally took whoever he wanted to act as the assistant, and Tom Pierrepoint even took his drinking buddies along as assistants at Irish hangings if he thought they could manage it. Assistants, at least post 1930, were engaged at Scottish hangings, although not all were from the list; Harry Allen's son Brian acted as the assistant at Peter Manuel's hanging at Barlinnie, but never did the training course. Finally, the claim about the authorities being reluctant to pay is wrong. Of all, the Scottish authorities were THE most generous, because they paid the full fee regardless of whether the execution was carried out or not. It was because of the fact that this DIDN'T happen in England and Wales, along with the fact that the hangmen were generally treated like shit, that Albert resigned. --UD75 (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)''

Brian Allen was not the assistant on Peter Manuel - the number two was a man called Harry Smith from Doncaster. In England & Wales after 1900 no man who wasn't on 'the list' was allowed anywhere near an execution chamber. In 1900/1 the Irish Sheriffs were instructed to use only men on the list (hence Thomas Scott and Bartholomew Binns were never asked again after March 1901) which they did so up until 1921, bar one job in 1905 when William Billington did a job in Cork even though he had been sacked in England in late 1904. Similiarly in Scotland after 1900 there are no 'odd' hangmen. www.truecrimelibrary.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.185.15 (talk) 20:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Opinion on Capital Punishment
I have changed the wording in this section to show a more general view of Pierrepoint's thoughts on the use of Capital Punishment. His true thoughts are unkown, not definite. The only person who truly knows is no longer with us...

Although he stated in his book that he had reached the decision that the punishment was irrelevant, his 1976 BBC Radio Merseyside interview shows that he was beginning to have second thoughts on the issue. In addition, his former assistant Syd Dernley also stated in his book that he firmly believed that Albert had stated this fact purely to help sell the book, and that he had not actually had a change of heart. Steve Fielding, author of the biography "Pierrepoint: A Family of Executioners", also takes a similar view of the matter during his interview in "The Executioners".

If anyone has a problem with this, then I welcome a response. --UD75 (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC) It has been subsequently revealed that Dernley was fired as assistant hangman because he was charged with, and found guilty of, purveying pornogaphic material. He lies in his biography about the reason he 'quit' and so everything he says must be called into question.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 (talk) 12:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

cause of death
OK, a little off-topic here, but there seem to be lots of references to this nonsense idea that breaking the neck causes instant death. Breaking the neck causes instant paralysis, that's all. The guy still strangles. He just can't kick and squirm to convey his suffering to observers. --Trovatore 15:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well according to http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hanging2.html#causes on a long drop - Death is still ultimately caused by asphyxia [brain dead usually after around 6 minutes] but the condemned person is deeply unconscious at the time due to dislocation of the cervical vertebrae and the crushing and/or separation of the spinal cord. Jooler 22:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there any evidence for this at all? I can't think of any reason separation of the spinal cord should cause unconsciousness. There are well-attested reports of severed heads exhibiting signs of consciousness after guillotining. I also note that the condemned man's head is traditionally covered in a hanging, which would make it impossible to see these signs. --Trovatore 22:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well attested? Well there is a story about Lavoisier- but it's a myth and according to Guillotine the anecdotal evidence for the claim can not be confirmed. Jooler 23:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that's so, I still see no reason at all why severing the spinal cord should cause unconsciousness. Is there any evidence that it does? --Trovatore 23:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno Google it, like I just did. Jooler 23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you found no such evidence, or you'd have mentioned it. Your link to Lavoisier led me to this Straight Dope column, in which a Dr. Fink observes that people "have remained alert after having their spinal cords severed".

I think in the absence of countervailing evidence, the default conclusion is clear: Severing the spinal cord does not cause unconsciousness, per se. A hanged person most likely remains conscious until hypoxia takes over (though it's conceivable he might be stunned by the concussion, but this is hardly "deep unconsciousness"). --Trovatore 23:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No I got bored of doing your searches for you. I don't find the comment for "Dr Fink" conclusive (no supporting instances described), certainly not in the case of hanging as opposed to decapitation. But what do I know? If you read the rest of the article that I put at the top of this section you will see that it suggests that a measured drop execution "properly carried out" has been observed to lead to apparent unconciousness (you suggest this is merely paralysis) in several studies. It asserts that the suggestion that it "causes instantaneous loss of consciousness, seems highly probable" and concludes with - "Carried out carefully and humanely, using an accurately measured drop and modern noose, hanging is possibly the least cruel way to execute a criminal.". BTW I'm not in favour of capital punishment in any form. Jooler 02:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My impression is that the author of that article is an advocate of capital punishment, and specifically of hanging. He does not adduce the slightest evidence in favor of his claim that hanging causes instant unconsciousness. I don't think he has any. --Trovatore 02:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well you're right in at least one respect in that he does indeed appear to be an advocate of capital punishment. He's quite open about his views on this page http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/thoughts.html Jooler 03:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The long drop method conveys an enormous amount of force to the neck and head which is said to cause instant unconciousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.111.182 (talk) 20:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

US soldiers
Could someone explain how he happened to execute 16 US soldiers? What had they done? --Trovatore 18:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I was going to say desertion most likely, but a quick check discovers that only one US soldier was executed for desertion in WWII, one Eddie Slovik and he was executed by firing squad in France. So I guess they would most likely be cases of rape and murder. Jooler 01:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * After a brief hunt for info I discovered this page and discovered that according to this document there were 18 US soldiers executed in England during WWII "Of the 18, nine were convicted of murder, six of rape, and three of both." - Apparently under the Visiting Forces Act 1942 gave the US military in Britain the right to try their servicemen for capital offences and included rape as a capital crime even though it wasn't a capital crime in Britain at the time. Jooler 01:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * We need to change the article - Albert was only assistant executioner at 6 executions at Shepton Mallet - it was Tom who was the chief executioner at all the American executions. The Steve Fielding book says that Albert was disturbed by the length of time the condemned spent in the executioners' company at the American hangings - in a normal British execution they'd be dead in within 10 - 60 seconds, but the Americans were stood on the trap and then had to wait for about five minutes while the charge was read, sentence spelt out, and the prisoner asked for any last statement.
 * The Shepton Mallet executions were:
 * 12-03-1943 David Cobb, Albert assisting.
 * 23-06-1943 Harold Smith, Albert assisting.
 * 14-12-1943 Lee Davis, Alex Riley assisting.
 * 16-02-1944 John H Waters, Alex Riley assisting.
 * 16-05-1944 John C. Leatherberry, Albert assisting.
 * 26-05-1944 Wiley Harris, Alex Riley assisting.
 * 11-08-1944 Eliga Brinson, Alex Riley assisting.
 * 11-08-1944 Willie Smith, Alex Riley assisting.
 * 12-10-1944 Thomas Madison, Albert assisting
 * 08-01-1945 Ernest Lee Clark, Albert assisting.
 * 08-01-1945 Augustine Guerra, Albert assisting.
 * 17-05-1945 Robert Pearson, Herbert Morris assisting.
 * 17-05-1945 Cubia Jones, Herbert Morris assisting.
 * 07-04-1945 William Harrison, Herbert Morris assisting.
 * 08-05-1945 George B. Smith, Herbert Morris assisting.
 * 15-06-1945 Aniceto Martinez, Herbert Morris assisting. -- Arwel (talk) 02:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Any idea about the two extra executions claimed by the document I quoted above? Jooler 02:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not at all sure. There may have been some executions before then, conducted by American hangmen, which didn't go too well which is why the UK government insisted that a British hangman be employed, using British procedures. The American method of hanging was to use a standard 5-foot drop which did not ensure the breaking of the neck and instant death; the British method was the long drop of between 5' (for 200 lbs clients) and 8' 6" (for clients of 118 lbs or less). I have reservations about the total accuracy of the Fielding book, as in the lists of Thomas' executions Albert is listed as the assistant at the 11-08-1944 executions, but they don't appear in the list of Albert's executions. Perplexing! -- Arwel (talk) 15:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a new book by Steve Fielding meanwhile (The Executioner's Bible) which states that the two 11-08-1944 executions were done by Thomas W. Pierrepoint, Albert P. assisting. So it seems that the omission of these two executions in the list of executions involving Albert P. (in Fielding's "Pierrepoint: A Family..." they should have appeared on p. 296, and don't) is just a mistake which Fielding corrected in his newer book.--Kauko56 (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Just found this page and the mystery is solved. The other two were shot by firing squad.
 * So we have (perhaps some discrepencies in bold) -
 * 12-03-1943 David Cobb - murder of Lieutenant Robert Cobner. (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)
 * 25-06-1943 Harold Smith - murder of Pte. Harry Jenkins. (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)
 * 14-12-1943 Lee A. Davis - murder of Cynthia Lay, rape of Muriel Fawden (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)
 * 10-02-1944 John H Waters - murder of Doris Staples (executioner Tom)
 * 16-03-1944 John C. Leatherberry - murder of Henry Hailstone (executioner Tom)
 * 26-05-1944 Wiley Harris - murder of Harry Coogan (executioner Tom)
 * 30-05-1944 Alex Miranda - murder of Sgt. Thomas Evison (execution by firing squad)
 * 11-08-1944 Eliga Brinson, rape of Dorothy Holmes (executioner Albert)
 * 11-08-1944 Willie Smith, rape of Dorothy Holmes (executioner Albert)
 * 12-10-1944 Madison Thomas - rape of Beatrice Reynolds (executioner Albert)
 * 28-11-1944 Benjamin Pyegate - murder of James Alexander (execution by firing squad)
 * 08-01-1945 Ernest Lee Clark - rape and murder of Elizabeth Green (executioner Tom)
 * 08-01-1945 Augustine Guerra - rape and murder of Elizabeth Green (executioner Tom)
 * 17-03-1945 Robert Pearson - rape of Joyce Brown (executioner Tom)
 * 17-03-1945 Parson Jones - rape of Joyce Brown (executioner Tom)
 * 07-04-1945 William Harrison, sexual assault and murder of Patricia Wylie (executioner Tom)
 * 08-05-1945 George B. Smith - murder of Sir Eric Teichman (wife of victim stated as Lady Teichman so he might have been a baronet rather than a knight) - execution was on V.E. Day. (executioner Tom)
 * 15-06-1945 Aniceto Martinez rape of Agnes Cope (executioner Tom)
 * Jooler 16:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This could make quite an interesting article actually. Jooler 22:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Differing from Richard Clark (www.capitalpunishmentuk.org ), Steve Fielding's newest book (Executioner's Bible, paperback edition 2008, pp. 282-284) attributes the Number One role in all "hanging" cases to Thomas W. Pierrepoint. They differ as well as to which assistant was employed at which execution.--Kauko56 (talk) 19:55, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Where born?
Does anyone know where he was born? I have an idea it was in Oldham (Lancs), but have no verification of this. He certainly ran a pub called "Help the Poor Struggler" in Oldham for many years before "retiring" to Southport (Lancs) where he had a number of part-time jobs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.90.245 04:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * He was born in Clayton, Bradford. Source: Fielding, Steve, Pierrepoint: A Family of Executioners, p. 127.--Kauko56 (talk) 20:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Observations on this article
1. I don't think the word "lorry" in this article needs to be glossed; we Americans are as familiar with this word as we are with English spelling (e.g. "centre", "colour", etc.). Further, equating "lorry" with "truck" only confuses those of us who don't know the meaning of the word, since the label "truck" is applied to a range of vehicles from pickup trucks & SUVs to seventeen-wheelers & double-trailer long haulers. 2. I'm surprised this article is rated as "Start": not only is its coverage complete about Pierrepoint's life & career, this article goes into further depth than the encyclopedias I grew up with would have -- this is something the average "Start" class article doesn't come close to doing. While I wouldn't seriously consider it FA material, I will promote it to "B" status unless someone objects. -- llywrch (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Structure
I think the article is great. I've just changes the structure a bit by moving some stuff about and putting headings in. I have removed very very little. Wright123 16:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

A bracket is missing Albert Pierrepoint was born in Clayton, near Bradford, Manchester. (Not to be confused with the Bradford in the West Riding of Yorkshire.MISSING —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.114.220 (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Pierrepoint's First Execution -- Tony Mancini
Tony Mancini was involved in the infamous Brighton Trunk Murders. Acquitted of murder in 1934, he publicly confessed in 1976. Is it possible there are two murderers of the same name in the same period? Emarmite (talk) 05:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Timothy Evans
Although pardoned, Timothy Evans’s murder conviction still stands. It was not at all subsequently discovered that it was John Christie that killed Beryl or Geraldine Evans – merely that he was a mass murderer (the term "serial killer" was a later creation) living in the same house at the same time and this cast sufficient doubt to warrant a pardon. Evans’s conviction was never quashed. Although commonly believed, it is nevertheless also fallacious to say that the Evans case had a bearing on the abolition of capital punishment – this was already being considered by Parliament in the thirties and the later (post-war) debates made no allusion to Evans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.237.143 (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Payments
If an execution paid £15, would be interesting to know what Pierrepoint's "day job" was. knoodelhed 18:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * He kept a pub. £15 in 1955 wasn't bad money - considerably more than the average weekly wage, and allowing for inflation it would be equivalent to about £250 today. (House of Commons Library paper 03/82). -- Arwel 22:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Although not necessarily a particularly accurate source, the film Pierrepoint mentions him being some sort of delivery man/driver several times, until he opened his pub. Con  D  e  m Talk 10:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The bit about "delivery driver" is correct; Pierrepoint says so himself in his autobiography. --Kauko56 13:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

A NOTE referring to the assistant's payment which was 1 1/2 guineas explains "guinea" being used as a unit for professional services. That's true, but it doesn't mean the assistant executioner was ranking one level with lawyers and doctors. Hey, his boss, the "number One", was paid in pounds!--Kauko56 (talk) 11:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Rewrite
I am working on a project to improve and expand this article. This will be a fairly lengthy process, during which editors' comments and suggestions will be most welcome. If possible, please use this talk page, but never fear to WP:BEBOLD. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As part of the rewrite, would anyone object if we moved the "Notable executions" section into the Locations of executions conducted by Albert Pierrepoint? Most of the truly notable ones will appear in the text, and the list would sit better in the list page anyway (although a change in title may also be worth considering). Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * No objection. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks . No-one has objected, so I'll do it now. You seem to have watchlisted the same sort of 'quirky British history' pages that I do - great minds think alike, and all that (or fools never differ, whichever you prefer!) - SchroCat (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, as you may know, I am a bit of a fool for a cigarette..... and, now you mention it, Even my friends say to me sometimes, And make out like I don't understand them... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Watching and willing to help as I can. Kafka Liz (talk) 07:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, SchroCat, any sources you can recommend would be helpful. I actually own a book about executioners, but it’s not in my hands at the moment. Kafka Liz (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Kafka Liz, Long time, no see! I hope all is well with you. As always, any help is welcome. In terms of sources, the key books are Klein's biography, the two Fielding books and Bailey. Pierrepoint's autobiography is interesting, colourful and as questionably reliable (or not) as any other autobiography; Klein picks up on a few bits where the reality was slightly more blurred than the book makes out, but that's always the case! There isn't much academic work that I can find that deals specifically with Pierrepoint, although there are pieces about the hanging and execution in general (The Lizzie Seal paper from here is an exception, and it's good reading too). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, SchroCat. All is well this end. I’ll see what I can do towards finding these - and thank you for the details on sources, and for the link. The book I have is something of a popular history, and may not be very good as a source, plus it is in storage an ocean away, so useless. I was watching a series about John Christie and Timothy Evans (very depressing; great acting by Tim Roth), though I had heard of Pierrepoint before. In any case, let me know where you plan to go with this, and I’ll help if I can. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:56, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * A cursory read, admittedly without yet seeing the sources, suggests that the lede could be reworked a bit. I think his career in general should be established before jumping to famous cases. Lord Haw Haw is a big one, of course, and I think Evans and Christie as well, mainly because of the eventual effect on capital punishment in Britain. That said, I think they should not be the first thing the reader learns of, since it’s not their article. Just a thought, and I’m flexible on this. Kafka Liz (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree entirely. I've not touched the lead at all yet - I tend to leave it to last so that it can better reflect the weight and emphasis of the article. My first thoughts on seeing it was also not to have the 'big name' criminals in the opening para, but get a bit more of a feel for the man himself before moving onto his career "highlights". Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Removed article
Article on Albert from the Southport Visiter (sic) - text removed from this talk page because it's © Trinity Mirror Plc. -- Arwel 09:43, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)