Talk:Albert of Riga

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Albert of Riga.

Albrecht von Buxthoeven → Albert of Riga– This individual is most often known in English simply as "Bishop Albert", or as "Albert of Riga" or "Albert of Livonia". The current title is not even the most commonly used in German, let alone English. Olessi 05:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey
''Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support as originator. Olessi 05:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. "Bishop Albert of Riga" is more common than "Bishop Albert of Livonia," and, despite the overwhelming preference of the sources surveyed below for "Bishop Albert," I think it is more appropriate in general to give the names of persons without any titles (though this is certainly not the practice of English Wikipedia when it comes to Popes&mdash;we should probably follow the example of apparently every other language Wikipedia except for Portuguese, and remove "Pope" from the titles of those artcicles, too, keeping it in parentheses afterwards if needed for disambiguation).  Wareh 19:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. I wasn't suggesting "Bishop Albert" as a title, merely that he is usually known without the "of Bux..." added. If you'd like to suggest changes to the papal naming system, Naming conventions (Western clergy) would be the best place to start, I think. Olessi 02:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
''Add any additional comments

Here is a series of Google Web and Google Books searches to help determine how this individual has usually been referred to in English. Along with the simple "Bishop Albert", the searches for "Albert of Riga" and "Albert of Livonia" give by far the most relevant data. Names including a variation of "Bexhövede" have been used much less frequently. Olessi 05:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

of Riga
 * 1) Albert of Riga
 * 2) *Google (~40 hits, numerous relevant links)
 * 3) *Google Books (a few dozen English books)
 * 4) Albert von Riga
 * 5) *Google (mostly German links)
 * 6) *Google Books (a multitude of German books)
 * 7) Albrecht of Riga
 * 8) *Google (1 English link)
 * 9) *Google Books (1 English book)
 * 10) Albrecht von Riga
 * 11) *Google (none)
 * 12) *Google Books (a few German books)

Bishop Albert (+ "Riga" for disambiguation)
 * Google (numerous English links, some mirrors)
 * Google Books (over 100 English books)

Bishop Albert (+ "Livonia" for disambiguation)
 * Google (numerous English links, some mirrors)
 * Google Books (over 100 English books)

Albert of Livonia
 * Google (several legitimate English uses, a few mirrors)
 * Google Books (a dozen English books)

Buxhoeveden
 * 1) Albert of Buxhoeveden
 * 2) *Google (~70 links, overwhelmingly wiki-mirrors)
 * 3) *Google Books (2 English books)
 * 4) Albert von Buxhoeveden
 * 5) *Google (~20 links, mixture of tourism, mirrors, and German links)
 * 6) *Google Books (3 English books, the rest in German)
 * 7) Albrecht of Buxhoeveden
 * 8) *Google (1 mirror)
 * 9) *Google Books (none)
 * 10) Albrecht von Buxhoeveden
 * 11) *Google (none)
 * 12) *Google Books (none)

Buxthoeven
 * 1) Albert of Buxthoeven
 * 2) *Google (2 mirrors)
 * 3) *Google Books (none)
 * 4) Albert von Buxthoeven
 * 5) *Google (1 homepage)
 * 6) *Google Books (1 German book)
 * 7) Albrecht of Buxthoeven
 * 8) *Google (1 mirror)
 * 9) *Google Books (none)
 * 10) Albrecht von Buxthoeven (the current title)
 * 11) *Google (all mirrors)
 * 12) *Google Books (none)

Buxtehude
 * 1) Albert of Buxtehude
 * 2) *Google (several collegiate links and uses)
 * 3) *Google Books (6 English books)
 * 4) Albert von Buxtehude
 * 5) *Google (1 game link)
 * 6) *Google Books (none)
 * 7) Albrecht of Buxtehude
 * 8) *Google (1 collegiate class link)
 * 9) *Google Books (none)
 * 10) Albrecht von Buxtehude
 * 11) *Google (none)
 * 12) *Google Books (none)

Buxhövden
 * 1) Albert of Buxhövden
 * 2) *Google (a few English usages)
 * 3) *Google Books (1 English book)
 * 4) Albert von Buxhövden
 * 5) *Google (some decent English references, the rest mirrors)
 * 6) *Google Books (1 English book, the rest German)
 * 7) Albrecht of Buxhövden
 * 8) *Google (none)
 * 9) *Google Books (none)
 * 10) Albrecht von Buxhövden
 * 11) *Google (1 link)
 * 12) *Google books (1 English book)

Appeldern
 * 1) Albert of Appeldern
 * 2) *Google (none)
 * 3) *Google Books (a few older English books)
 * 4) Albert von Appeldern
 * 5) *Google (a few English links)
 * 6) *Google Books (a few English books, the rest in foreign languages)
 * 7) Albrecht of Appeldern
 * 8) *Google (none)
 * 9) *Google Books (1 English book)
 * 10) Albrecht von Appeldern
 * 11) *Google (1 German link)
 * 12) *Google Books (none)

A sampling of some individual works: Olessi 05:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Catholic Encyclopedia: "Bishop Albert"
 * Encyclopedia Britannica: "Albert I of Livonia"
 * Encyclopedia Columbia: "Albert of Livonia"
 * Eric Christiansen's The Northern Crusades: "Albert of Buxtehude"
 * Desmond Seward's The Monks of War: "Albrecht von Buxhövden"
 * Geoffrey Barraclough's The Origins of Modern Germany: "Albrecht of Appeldern"
 * Clarence A. Manning's The Forgotten Republics: "Bishop Albert"
 * William Urban's The Teutonic Knights: "Albert von Buxhoevden"
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Conflict over who
I've been working on the history of Riga. Lo and behold, I come across History of the Christian Church, by Wilhelm Moeller, Andrew Rutherfurd,  Gustav Kawerau,  John Henry Freese, which specifically states "Albert (of Stade, not of Apeldern or Buxhöwden)." To be integrated into existing content at some point. V ЄСRUМВА  &#9742;  14:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. Problem solved, the source is wrong in this regard. V ЄСRUМВА  &#9742;  14:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)