Talk:Albus Dumbledore/Archive 3

Too much?
Does this article really need to mention every time Dumbledore speaks in the series, and explain the history of his youth three times? I think some consolidation by someone with more editorial fortitude than I is in order. AdjectiveAnimal 15:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. The information of his early life and pre-publication story is repeated in "The Life and Lies". Lord Opeth 20:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Succession Boxes
I was just wondering why all the succession boxes were removed?

Birth place

 * The article says that Dumbledore was born in Godric's Hollow. However, we see in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows that Dumbledore was already born before his family moved to Godric's Hollow. I've edited that part out, please discuss if you think otherwise. --Pavithran 23:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Headmaster
The article should show Umbridge was headmistress as well as dark arts teacher at the bottom, succeded by Umbridge, succeded umbridge. She was the headmistress regardless of whether she was let into the heads office. Her appointment was at no point challenged by the board of governers and she held teh post for a non trivial time. Just as coup leaders or despots would be reflected in such terms your dislike of the character shouldnt prevent listing as such.

But neither her nor Snape have portraits in the Headmasters office...almost as if they weren't "accepted" by the magic of the "Founders". I would refer to them both as "Interim Head of School". B.K. 23:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The only reason she doesn't have a portrait is because she is not yet dead.--Fugio 23:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

And who says Snape doesn't have a portrait? Just because it isn't specifically stated that there is a portrait doesn't mean there can't be one.

No, the portrait exists even before the person dies. Dumbledore states that he "updates his portrait", and that's why the portrait knows about the horcruxs and the Deathly Hallows. But, I agree, even though it was for a short time, Umbridge was a headmistress, and it should be noted.

Speculation
The name Wulfric meaning "wolf-power", is reminiscent of the legendary hero Beowulf ("powerful bear-wolf"), who in his early years slew the monster Grendel (a name oddly reminiscent of Grindelwald, a Dark Wizard whom Dumbledore defeated). Beowulf later became king, but in his old age had to overcome another monster, a dragon, which he only did with the help of one loyal young warrior called Wiglaf, last of his family. Beowulf died from his wounds during the battle.[1]

Doesn't this remind you all of HPHBP?


 * Thats nice. I wish we could do away with all these "His name comes from..." or "The name _____ derives from..." with some made up nonsense that constitutes simple speculation and original research, in violation of WP:NOR and WP:V.  Rowling made up the character names out of thin air, some with her own agenda, and unless she states somewhere that she got the name "Wulferic" from "Beowulf" or whatever, then it is absolutely non-encyclopedic and should be stricken.  --T-dot 15:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Out of thin air? Wasn't the name Harry Potter taken from a neighbourhood boy she knew? Michaelsanders 22:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If she states so, then yes. If not, then no.  The Wikipedia is only interested in verifiable facts WP:V from reliable sources WP:RS, not speculation, original research WP:NOR, or weasel wording WP:AWW - even if it is "true".  --T-dot 00:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Clarification: her childhood best friend was named Ian Potter, and 'Harry' was her original ideal name for a son; also there is this quote (from [], under Harry James Potter: "It was a day like any other and Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Brainsample were a perfectly ordinary couple, leading perfectly ordinary lives--the sort of people to whom nothing extraordinarhistory of mankind...so let's forget about them and follow instead the destiny of this man (camera pans to businessman in bowler hat and pinstripe suit)...Harold Potter, gardener and tax official, first victim of Creatures from Another Planet,"--Narrator, MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS Michaelsanders 20:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Another monty python reference to go with brian then (which only seems famous for the python film)?
 * Like Cockroach Clusters (confirmed by JKR) Valley2city 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As to name derivations, have you looked at some of the pages where names traditional meanings are explained and how aptly they fit the characters? I doubt even one of them was chosen randomly. For example, do you feel that Remus Lupin's name is entirely a coincidence with the other famous Remus who founded Rome, suckled by Wolves? Traditional meanings of names are not original research, they are traditionl meanings. The evidence we have is that all JKR's names have meaning. Sandpiper 03:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oxford Minidictionary of First Names: "Brian. M. Celtic... from an element meaning 'hill', 'eminence' {the latter seems appropriate to Dumbledore} ... common in East Anglia [in Middle Ages] {isn't East Anglia where the 'fens' are?}... and in North-West England, to which it was introduced by Scandinavians from Ireland, where it has been perennially popular, largely on account of the fame of Brian Boru (Gaelic Brian Boroimhe), a tenth century High King of Ireland." The name thus gives Dumbledore strong celtic connections (backing up Percival) and Scandinavian connections (backing up Wulfric); the High-King reference could also apply to Dumbledore. Percival could also be important: he was in original stories the perfect pure knight who alone could win the Grail, before in later stories this role was assigned to Galahad (the bowl or cup with supernatural powers is reminiscent of the Horcrux basin). The general theme of Dumbledore's name seems to be to emphasise his connection to Britain: he is identified with the Romans by Albus, with the Welsh and Normans by Perceval, with the Vikings by Wulfric, with the Irish by Brian, and - finally, the name which he is always known by - with the (Old) English by Dumbledore. Michaelsanders 23:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is my first post, please be kind. Can I suggest that Dumbledore's forenames names reflect the four nations of Britain and Ireland: Albus (Alba: Scotland), Percival (Wales), Wulfric (the Anglo-Saxons, the English) and Brian (Ireland).Hoozle 21:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, this is me, being kind, Hoozle. :)
 * Certain things belong in the article: the actual plot or character background as detailed within the stories of JKR, reviews from reliable, verifiable and noteworthy sources, and not the spotty highlights off a crufty fan page. JKR might have been thinking of the four countries of England; I think that gives the woman the sort of respect better reserved for actually talented authors, but that's just my opinion. Honestly people, you are clearly intelligent, please address what was said, and not use those great big brains to add something that is not cited. Use those great big brains for good and not coattail-riding eve-ill. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  18:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Death
I noticed dumbledores date of birth is at the start, but not his date of death, is this for spoiler reasons? we could put in a spoiler warning at the start. Other artcles have it, such as Cedric Diggory. Raemie 14:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for asking. We want the users and visitors to the Wikipedia, who may perhaps be thinking about reading the Harry Potter books, to be able know from the brief introductory paragraph who Dumbledore is, and his general role in the Harry Potter series.  The introductory paragraph then should be free of any plot spoilers, such as the matter of his death towards the end of book 6, that could ruin the otherwise very suspenseful plot line.  It is against Wikipedia Policy to spoil storyline plots without adequate warning to users, who may or may not not be up to date on their reading.  Believe it or not, there are still people left in the world who have not yet read all of the books, and some of them may be exploring the Wikipedia to get some general information on the books and characters before investing in the time (and money) embarking on the monumental task of catching up with others who have read the books through several times.  Other people have not read the books at all, and perhaps have only seen the movies.  These folks may not learn of Dumbledore's fate until November 2008, when the sixth movie is scheduled to come out.


 * As for Cedric Diggory - it is my personal view that his death date should also not be posted in the introductory paragraph, and that it should be mentioned after the spoiler. However I believe the majority of the other editors in the Harry Potter Project seem to lean towards allowing it.  This is primarily because the fourth book, where Cedric is killed, was published over six years ago (8 July 2000), and the movie version was released more than 9 months ago (18 Nov. 2005), and the home DVD version was released nearly 6 months ago (7 March 2006).  In addition, while Cedric's sudden death was particularly jolting, his overall role in the series is relatively minor.  His first appearance was in the third book - and it was more of a cameo appearance as the Hufflepuff House Quidditch Team Seeker, who "defeated" Harry and his Gryffindor team while Harry was being attacked by the Dementors.  The producers of the movie version never even credited his actor's appearance, in the broom-flying scene during the thunderstorm, where we almost but not quite make out his face.  In the fourth book, Cedric suddenly becomes a key character, not only as Harry's rival, both for the affections of Cho Chang, and as a Triwizard Tournament School Champion, but also as a new friend.  Nevertheless, he is "killed off" before the end of the book.  In comparison, Dumbledore is an extremely important and major ongoing character, with key roles from the first chapter of the first book, to the last chapter of the sixth, and his character is very endearing to readers and movie-watchers.  Since Dumbledore is arguably "much more important" than Cedric in the series, then it is much more important to protect his introductory paragraph from unexpected spoilers.  Do you really want to ruin the story of Harry and Dumbledore for all the young readers who are still catching up with you?


 * Frankly I would rather we not post any "Harry Potter Universe" dates - birthdates, deathdates, school term dates, first dates with Ginny, etc. as if they were somehow "real" and relevant - since they are fictional and have no relationship to the real world of years and dates. Besides, Rowling's fictional dates are full of impossibilities and inconsistencies, but nevertheless we have them worked out such as they are.  The HP Project consensus has been to post the assumed dates anyway, in spite of problems.  Frankly, many of the younger folks and HP fans like to compare their life timelines with those described in the Harry Potter universe - taking great satisfaction and delight from sharing such things as birthdays with Draco Malfoy for example.  To remove birthdates like that would cause a riot, so in the interest of peace - we keep them in.  Maybe when all these kids grow up, then the relevence of the dates will evaporate.  Does anyone know the birthday of Holden Caulfield - the sixteen year old depressed protagonist from The Catcher in the Rye?  I didn't see it mentioned in either article in the Wikipedia.  Now while Harry's July 31st birthday is important to the storyline, the year of his birth is certainly not, and neither is the birthday of any of the other characters, save perhaps Neville Longbottom's.  --T-dot 23:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I see what you are saying, and it would perhaps be ill-advised to begin the article with a spoiler-alert, but isn't this quite unusual to omit from the beginning of a biographical article (even though he's fictional... hope I didn't offend anyone with that statement), and shouldn't it say 1840s-June 1996? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Valley2city (talk • contribs) 23:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

This might be a spoiler, but it should be there. Even if it does confirm the Dumbledore dies in this book, it should be noted with a spoiler/plot warning. DorTheScripter 12:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Birth date / Age
How does Albus Dumbledore live so long?

JK has stated that wizards tend to live longer lifes than muggles. Several of the OWL examiners are older than Dumbledore.

Wizards do live longer than Muggles, but it's not sure how much longer. As we can see on the Black Family Tree, the Blacks don't life long for wizards, so there could be a (big) difference between wizards. And we shouldn't forget Dumbledore is a very, very, véry powerfull wizard, so the reason why he lives longer could be because he has very good magic abilities.

True, but considering the Blacks' nature, they probably got themselves killed, and please sign your comments with four tildes (~). Therequiembellishere 06:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There has been no suggestion in canon that the Blacks as a whole did anything to get themselves killed early - they'd hardly be considered respectable if every few years, one ended up on the bad side of an auror. More credibly, if they were a vaguely upper-class family who didn't mix with 'lower mortals' very much, and kept themselves locked up in that house a lot of the time rather than going out a lot, they can't have been particularly resistant to Dragonpox and the other nasty diseases... Michael Sanders 14:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Regulus got himself killed by Voldemorts followers, Sirius by Voldemorts followers, his mother seems pretty argumentative as does Nigellus Black his gg something. Reggies father and uncle died the same year reggie did, and his father was desperately trying to protect their house. Bella became a death eater, and indeed killed her cousin. Sounds like they were good at making enemies, not least their own close relatives. Sandpiper 07:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, and that run of killings caused the family to go extinct in a matter of 20 years. If they've been persistently so incompetent in matters of their own mortality, one would imagine it would have happened a lot sooner. One can be argumentative without having a death wish. Michael Sanders 18:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Regulus got killed in the cave of the bracelet horcrux. It was assumed by Sirius that he was killed by Voldemort's followers but now proven wrong by Kreacher's tale in HP7.--128.176.232.57 00:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I must say, I do not understand where the chronology used comes from. It is clearly stated in the Hallows book that Dumbledore was around 22 when he faced Grindelwald (1945), hvis would put him at 1922-23. What other sources are people using? 62.107.120.111 14:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? If that's true, then that would put him at 19 during the first Chamber of Secrets incident. --Capefeather 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is definately said in HP7 that Dumbledore was young when he met Grindelwald for the first time. I think he could have been at maximum 25 when duelling Grindelwald in 1945. Which leaves little place to seeing young Tom Riddle as a teacher. There simply must be a flaw: Tom Riddle just is too old! If he was 10 years younger and had attended to Hogwarts in the 1950s, everything would be fine... But there is no proof whatsoever or even reason why Dumbledore should have been over 100 years by then.--128.176.232.57 00:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a miscalculation in the age of Voldemort. Riddle is taken from the orphanage at age 10/11 by a Dumbledore teaching at Hogwarts! And seeing as Dippet tells Riddle that he is, at age 18/17, simply too young to teach, a Hogwarts teacher is probably never younger than 25. Also, Dumbledore's hair and beard is auburn when he picks up Riddle, which ought to emphasize the not too grand yearspan inbetween the two of them. 62.107.120.111 09:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's something else to keep in mind... Auntie Muriel was a contemporary of Dumbledore's based on what she said at the wedding about knowing the goings on of Ariana's funeral, and she also made it quite clear that she's 107. While Muriel could certainly be younger than Dumbledore, she certainly couldn't be 43 years younger than him, which would put Dumbledore more accurately somewhere in his 110s, probably.

Meanwhile, I don't see anything that suggests Dumbledore was 22 in 1945. He was only, like, 18 when he and Grindelwald had their parting of the ways, and I doubt Grindelwald became an evil world power in four years. Him being in his 110s works the most, since the 150 thing is not canon. --67.165.141.239 02:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. neither do I. All dates should be removed. It's an in-universe thing. As for why AD is so old, it's called magic, folks. He was using Flamel's stuff to keep on truckin'. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  18:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Image
What happened to the picture? It's really dark and not the greatest pose of Dumbledore. I'm still on vacation, and will be back later, but can we find the old one? --Fbv65 e del / &#9745;t / &#9755;c || 16:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure though the other one didn't do much for me. It was only of his head; there should be one of his whole body. I don't want the other back; I'll look for another one. C  a  rm  el  apple


 * I reverted your image change - you inadvertently duplicated the same image that is used just a short way further down the page. You can find the old original image (maybe) by checking older versions of the article in the history tab, unless it has been deleted.  --T-dot 17:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind - I found it myself and re-posted it. It was last available on the Aug 5th edition of the article.  --T-dot 17:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like that image and I am determined to find another one even revert to the one we had it at before Fbv65edel posted this comment. This picture does not show Dumbledore. We need a picture that's show's his body; not only his head. C  a  rm  el  apple  13:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats fine, and I am sorry that you "don't like" one of the images - just keep in mind that we work by consensus here, and we don't always get what we want. This is a cooperative effort, and there are dozens of other editors who might happen to like that image, and they all get a vote!  In any case, I agree a clear full length image would be good - to show Dumbledore's style of dress - his robes etc.   We need at least one close-up portrait showing the difference in the two actors (Richard Harris and Michael Gambon), and perhaps a full length of each showing their style of dress.  Perhaps one other image of Dumbledore "doing something" would be good as well, as long as it is significantly different from the others.  Just keep in mind that we are limited in the use of "fair use" images - we are to use as few as possible to illustrate the article ... we are not to load the article up with images "stolen" from other web sites and DVD screen shots.  see WP:FU --T-dot 15:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If everyone wants a vote that's fine, but I think that the image in the top right hand corner should be of Dumbledore; not just his head. C  a  rm  el  apple  17:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to bring this up again. This picture of Dumbledore needs to replaced. We need a picture of his body, not his head to be in the picture. Last time Carmelapple said he didn't like the picture. I like the picture, but we need a picture of the his whole body. Could anyone find one? ForestH2 t/h/c 17:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this one - same source as the current "Penseive" shot - http://www.harrypotterfanzone.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=23&pos=162 --T-dot 17:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's good. What do you think? ForestH2  t/h/c 17:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm good with it. It is a promotional still - not technically a screen shot or a movie poster - so I think we have to use the "promotional" or some other appropriate fair use criteria - and make sure it is correctly sourced and explained.  It seems most of the HP images I see are unsourced - and incorrectly explained and categorized under fair use as "screen shots" when they are in fact studio posed stills, or promotional stage-set stills used for setting up scenes and angles.  --T-dot 18:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you upload it? ForestH2  t/h/c 19:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see "promotional" the only licensing that seems to fit is "screenshot". Phnx2ashes 22:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Upload file (images) template page only provides a sample of Fair Use criteria tags. see the Tagging Images section for a lot more, including the general "promotional" tag which you can add to the image, along with a justification explanation.  --T-dot 23:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Does the chapter art follow different guidlines than the covers? Since when are the American version's not canon? And who determines that anyway? John Reaves 14:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There are no licensing tags for chapter art because the art is copyrighted to the artist and publisher. In fact, most of the Harry Potter chapter art images have been deleted with the exception of the young Tom Riddle pic on the Voldemort page (but thats a special case if you read it's licensing)for that very reason. Cover Art is accepted because it is also used for promotional purposes.
 * Chapter art is not considered cannon because it is only included in the American versions of the books, and is only the interpretation of the artist, not the author. You can see previous arguments here .←Phŋж 2 Âshəs

'  |Đ|©| 15:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

also that caption is wrong because Richard Harris died Elderleo 19:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we need a better photo of the actors who have played Dumbledore. There have been 2 I am sure so in memory of the first one we should have a pic of both although one of them has been in more films than the other one so it really should be theone who has been in the most. A nice one of him stood in front of them in assembly would be good. There must be plenty of pics of him flooting about. Come on people!

I really don't like the way that the same photo is at the bottom and top of the page. It looks amateurish. Delighted eyes 21:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Aberforth is a bartender?
I don't recall any of the books mentioning that Aberforth works as bartender in the Hog's Head, anybody have any proof of this? 68.40.190.172 21:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right: there is no confirmation in canon of this. However, the barkeeper is described as looking vaguely familiar to Harry (presumably because of having seen the Order photo at Grimmauld Place - one would expect him to notice if he looked rather like Albus), and Harry also notes a smell of goats. Rowling was then asked in some sort of interview if the barkeeper was Aberforth, to which she apparently laughed and said something like, 'you're very good, what makes you say that'; the response was 'the smell of goats', to which she replied that she had very much enjoyed writing that clue. True, it isn't a cast-iron confirmation, but it is pretty firm. Michaelsanders 21:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes she has confirmed that Aberforth is the Hog's Head's bartender. See: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/aberforth.html Therequiembellishere 06:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Past tense in intro
Since we don't wish to give away spoilers in the intro, shouldn't the verbs be pesent tense?

Either way, they shift from present to past, to present again. They need to be changed in any case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Derfy (talk • contribs).
 * O RLY? There's a spoiler in the intro of JFK. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 18:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Because JFK is about a real person, and not a fictional book or movie, it's not a spoiler… you can't be "spoiled" because you found out that JFK died. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 19:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and put that first paragraph in present tense, not because I'm worried about spoilers, but because Dumbledore is a fictional character -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28writing_about_fiction%29#Contextual_presentation AdjectiveAnimal 14:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture
Does anybody know why the picture was deleted? John Reaves 21:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Haven't a clue, but I'm going to upload another one since it appears it might possibly have been unexplained. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 23:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Prophecy versions
I'm missing something, it says in the article that the versions of prophecies made by Trelawney and Dumbledore are different. Could anybody pls tell me the difference? I hope someone would tell me on my talk page. Thanks!  katZ 03   01:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Holy Speculation
I honestly can't believe how much speculation I am reading in this article. I am in serious favor of some major deleting. This article is supposed to depict the character by what we know about him, not mentions and references to fan theories. That says nothing about the character, and it's not even valid information. Consensus anyone? --MajinVegeta 04:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you read any of the books? To walk out of that experience and not see Dumbledore with glowing white light and a halo on his head may just be impossible.


 * Well, yes. But this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a fan site. I agree with Majinvegeta. DorTheScripter 16:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Too Magical
TOO magical, nonsense for some, I can see some improvement coming along user:orgel


 * I agree.
 * This should be about the Dumbledore character, and not evrything related to it. Think of Dumbledore as a non-fictional character, but a real person, and then there should be an improvement to the article. DorTheScripter 16:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

misplaced quote
I think the quote "After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure. - Albus Dumbledore" should be moved the end of the death section where his views of death are discussed. It seems to be wholly out of place where it is.--Helgers7 09:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't to do with HIS death though. I can see how it makes sense, but I think it's fine where it is.

Initial section cleanup
The rest of the article seems sound, from a grammatical standpoint. The initial sections were atrocious and I have tried to clean them up. I also removed a reference to Dumbledore's "constituents"(?) Ccrashh 01:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Biography box
It says "Deceased," but in book 4, it is proven that wizards can return from the dead. Any way to note this? AgentFade2Black 21:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It was confirmed from J.K. Rowling herself that Dumbledore "is definitely dead" Dcstorm097 23:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Remember that we last see Dumbledore "slumbering in a gold frame over the (Headmaster's) desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled". There is nothing in "book 4" that says wizards can return from the dead, so there is nothing to be noted. Some reappear as ghosts, some in picture frames. That's it. If you are referring to Voldemort - he never died, he has Horcruxes to protect his immortality. Dumbledore is dead. From: this interview
 * Cory Mayer: My name's Cory Mayer and I'm 9 years old and I'm from Bordentown, New Jersey. I absolutely love your books. I'm not a big reader but your books make me want to read and that makes my mom happy (crowd and JK Rowling laugh). She loves your books too. In a recent interview you hinted at two main characters dying and possibly Harry Potter too. Was Dumbledore considered one of the main characters or will we have the chance to see him in action once again? Since he is the most powerful wizard of all time and Harry Potter is so loyal to him, how could he really be dead?
 * JK Rowling: Ohhhhhhhh (Jo puts her head in her arms and crowd cheers and applauds). I feel terrible (crowd laughs). The British writer Graham Green once said that every writer had to have a chip of ice in their heart. Oh no (Jo says half weeping while crowd laughs). I think you may just have ruined my career (crowd laughs). Umm, I really can't answer that question because the answer is in book seven but ... you shouldn't expect Dumbledore to do a Gandalf. Let me just put it that way. I'm sorry (crowd moans and applauds).''
 * Salman and Milan Rushdie: We cannot, or don't want to believe this (crowd laughs). Our theory is that Snape is in fact, still a good guy (crowd applauds). From which it follows that Dumbledore can't really be dead and that the death is a ruse cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard so that when Harry and Voldemort come face to face (crowd laughs). Harry may have more allies than he or Voldemort suspects. So, is Snape good or bad? (crowd laughs, applauds and screams and Jo chuckles). In our opinion, everything follows from it.
 * JK Rowling: Well, Salman, your opinion, I would say is ... right. But I see that I need to be a little more explicit and say that Dumbledore is definitely ... dead (crowd gasps). And I do know - I do know that there is an entire website out there that says - that's name is DumbledoreIsNotDead.com so umm, I'd imagine they're not pretty happy right now (crowd laughs). But I think I need - you need - all of you need to move through the five stages of grief (crowd laughs), and I'm just helping you get past denial. So, I can't remember what's next. It may be anger so I think we should stop it here. Thank you (crowd applauds).

--T-dot ( Talk/ contribs ) 00:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Beowulf
This is from the text:
 * The name Wulfric means "wolf-power" and is reminiscent of the legendary hero Beowulf (powerful bear-wolf),

This is sourced to this page, but sourced or not, this etymology is garbage. It is well known that the "beo" in Beowulf is not "bear" but "bee", thus giving "bee-wolf", which is turn a kenning for "bear". That is, the name Beowulf is a poetic description of a bear as the "wolf of bees" &mdash; this alludes to bears' famous love of honey. --Saforrest

Brian
I've pulled this is excessively speculative:
 * The meaning of Brian is not known for certain but it is possibly related to the Old Celtic element "bre" meaning "hill", or by extension "high, noble". The name is more likely used just as a comical contrast to his other, more unusual names. However, Brian is also the name of one of the Druids traveling with the Tuatha De Danann.

The Beowulf/Grendel vs. Wulfric/Grindelwald I can see. But this level of speculation is absurd. That said, if you want to delve into the name "Brian", there's really only one obvious past individual who qualifies as the most important Brian: Brian Boru. --Saforrest 16:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't see why all of these name theories are important. It's like you'd talk about George W. Bush, why is he named bush? because he was born in one
 * I think editors should focus on the facts that come from the books, and no other fan website, don't you agree?. DorTheScripter 16:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Picture
The current picture of Dumbledore seems a bit pixelated to me..., and just not the greatest pose showing Dumbledore. Also, I'm not sure if others agree with me or not, but I think perhaps a picture showing Michael Gambon as Dumbledore would be best, seeing as he is the current portrayal. Anyone else agree, or disagree, with me? Nazgul533 talk contribs 01:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree. Since, you know, Richard Harris ISN'T Dumbledore anymore. -Sukecchi 11:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * i agree Delighted eyes 21:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I think the most suitable illustration for Dumbledore would be a Mary Grand Pre illustration, as it is the closest from the original source.  Ok, fine I don't really love Gambon in the role, I don't think he reflects the character on the book, but that's besides the point.  Like I said, I think a Mary Grand Pre illustration would be better. -- Byakuren 02:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are entitled to your opinion about him as an actor, however, I don't usually poke into Harry Potter articles, but don't articles about important characters use movie images once they are available? -Sukecchi 20:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite
With the Release of Deathly Hallows, this article needs, in my opinion, a gigantic rewrite. Dumbledore's life features prominently into the novel, and I personally feel that if we take a systematic approach twords this, it will not appear fragmented, as many articles on fictional characters tend to be after a significant event in the canon (season finale/new movie release/etc...) Zytch 00:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's still looking pretty fragmented and rough right now....also missing a lot of fact and proper order. B.K. 23:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

removed "Futures"
I have removed the entire "Futures" section, as the speculation in it is no longer relevant due to the release of the seventh book.

Overmage 18:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

While we're speculating, who says that's the last book? The Hallows and Offspring are practically screaming to be written about. I'd bet a fair amount that we'll be hearing more from Hogwarts

Kendra Dumbledore: Muggle Born?
Why does it say that Kendra Dumbledore may be a muggle born?

It is said many times in Deathly Hallows that many people thought that "she [Kendra] was ashamed of having produced a squib daughter [Ariana]." I doubt they would have believed this if Kendra was indeed a muggle born.

Loopywelshemz 20:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

HP 7 discussion between Aunt Murial, Elphias Doge and Harry-in-disguise-as-Barry (page 129) 'Muggle-born, though I hear she pretended otherwise -' Pedant6031 23:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler
Dumbeldore's death is a rather massive spoiler for people that haven't read the Half Blood Prince, what happened to spoiler tags in Wikipedia? Sean 23:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Also that considering book 7 has just come out, I vote there's a spoiler tag there as well. Naysie
 * Spoilers were depracated. See WP:SPOILER and talk page. Exxolon 01:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * However I've removed that paragraph from the lead. Major spoilers should be in 'Plot' or 'Biography' sections. Exxolon 01:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * dude, they sell "Snape Killed Dumbledore" t-shirts and coffee mugs. I think the cat is out of the bag. Spoilers are for hacks. If you don't want to know the end of the series, don't read the article. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  22:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Geotrupes stercorarius?
"Dumbledore is the common name for Geotrupes stercorarius, also known as the Dor Beetle, Clock or Lousy Watchman, an insect which visits the Shire each year, as mentioned in the poem "Errantry" by J. R. R. Tolkien (published in The Tolkien Reader)."

I looked at the article on Geotrupes stercorarius and I didn't see the word Dumbledore there. I therefore put a cite tag on the section.  Valley 2 city  00:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this white-haired professor the inspiration for Dumbledore?
One of Rowling's Exeter University Profs. See this Indedpendent article Hogwarts uncovered: The last remaining Harry Potter mystery "Is this white-haired professor the inspiration for Dumbledore?" Godspeed John Glenn! Will 03:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Age?
In the final book it states both Ariana and Abreforth were younger. But who was older Aberforth or Ariana?

Aberforth started Hogwarts 3 years later according to DH Chap 2 but Ariana was seven 1 year previous to Albus starting so they must be twins. It's wierd. LizzieHarrison 09:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The Elder Wand's depiction in the films
Why is so much emphasis placed on the films' depiction of Dumbledore's wand in this article, ie. main picture and further references? The producers obviously had no knowledge of its significance and therefore did not specially design it to fit some legendary appearance. It is not unique or singular that it is depicted with orbs, etc., as that is just the decoration which the prop department designed. --Christopher

Film portrayal, Actor
The section should be improved, I don't think it is fair or neutral to say that Michael Gambon "puts a shame Dumbledore's name, portraying him as violent and unhappy". The director of the film decides how the actor portrays the character. Plus I don't agree that he portrays Albus differently than in the books.

85.15.244.19 18:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I think this is far gone enough (e.g., personal opinion and unsourced) that I'm going to be Bold and remove it. croll 18:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Succession Boxes
As it has been a point of contention over at the article for Severus Snape, I thought I'd bring it up for discussion before outright removing them. Succession boxes are not appropriate for fictional characters, per WP:WAF. If someone has a good reason why they should remain, please share it. Faithlessthewonderboy 16:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Just for clarity's sake, let's do the same with as was done with Snape's article and remove them at the end of the day if no-one has given a good reason for keeping them. asyndeton 16:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've got no problem with that. Faithlessthewonderboy 16:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Phoenix3.jpg
Image:Phoenix3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 01:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

What a friggin' disastuh!
I am not sure what fanboys went to town, crufting up this article, but it is now in shambolic shape. I've removed quotations of Dumbledore as they are an infringement and cannot remain. I am plopping them here, bc they can be used in WikiQuote and linked to the article.


 * "Dumbledore's views on death
 * After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure. - Albus Dumbledore
 * Dumbledore's views on death in general begin to appear as early as the first book, where he states that "Death is but the next great adventure." Furthermore, in the fifth book, there is the following exchange with Voldemort:
 * "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. "Above such brutality, are you?"
 * "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldemort as though he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall. "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit—"
 * "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort.
 * "You are quite wrong," Dumbledore said, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless. He wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backward toward the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness—" 

Hair Colour and Eye Colour
What on Earth?! Eye colo(u)r and hair colo(u)r are missing from all HP characters; how, when and why?
 * They were removed from the template as non-notable and crufty. In other words, the information is better explained within the article, as there are differences between the books and subsequent films. Infoboxes are for showing constants, not variances. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  02:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yet More Uncited, Crufty and Generally OR stuff
Yet more material removed to here, as none of it had a single citation. Find a reviewer who specifically comments on this and those comments can go in. This stuff is just OR musing, but copied here for guidance (not actual usage):


 * Foreshadowings of his death
 * Dumbledore's death is foreshadowed at the start of The Half-Blood Prince, where he first appears with a burnt and blackened hand, a result of his recovery and wearing of a ring that was an heirloom of Voldemort's grandfather Marvolo Gaunt and was serving as one of Voldemort's Horcruxes ( it is also the Resurrection Stone which is one of the "Deathly Hallows" ), therefore being cursed. On that occasion, Dumbledore is saved from death thanks to his own "prodigious skill" and the intervention of Severus Snape, though the injury shows no sign of improvement throughout the year that passes in the sixth book. An explanation for this is provided near the end of The Deathly Hallows.


 * Dumbledore's death is indirectly predicted by Sybill Trelawney, who maintains that disaster is coming to the school. Though she attempts to warn Dumbledore, he takes little notice. In fact, the chapter of The Half-Blood Prince in which Dumbledore is killed is called "The Lightning Struck Tower", this being the card held to predict calamity and disaster — the card that Trelawney pulled out as she spoke to Harry while he was heading to Dumbledore's office.


 * The injury sustained after the destruction of the ring Horcrux was particularly troublesome as it reduced Dumbledore's physical skills. After picking up Harry from his aunt's house, Dumbledore seems unable to complete simple everyday tasks. Such tasks included opening the front door to leave the Dursley's house: instead of using the door handle he opted to use magic. Later in book six he was unable to point at a street sign without obvious discomfort, exclaiming "ouch." Finally, he was unable to uncork a bottle of memories for his first private lesson with Harry by removing the cork with his hand. Instead, he was forced to use his wand. That said, it did not at any important point cause him trouble in spell-casting.