Talk:Alcibiades Diamandi

Copyvio/non-notable?
This article reads like a copyvio, but this person doesn't get a single hit on Google for any of the spellings of his name. -- Kjkolb 07:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You are wrong kjolb: Check http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=alkiviadis+diamandi&btnG=Google+Search&meta= and see for yourself. And there's no copyvio problem whatsoever since Prof. Clogg kindly gave his permission

Topic itself
You know, I've checked this article, wikified it, toned it down... But WHY does it have to be this long?Dahn 05:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Honestly, does anyone care who signed that manifesto? At least give it a headline and make it an article om its own.Dahn 05:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You've got a point Dahn but the length of the article is justified by the obscurity of the topic. People are quite curious and want to find out more about this character whose deeds were considered until recently a taboo in Greece. Apostolos Margaritis 10:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

And BTW, thanks a lot in the name of the readers for your kind efforts. As to the those who signed the list: their names matter for the sake of the historical accuracy. Plus many today claim that Diamandis was not supported by virtually noone which was not quite the case. As in the case of the Republique de Vichy, there were loads of willing Vlach collaborators who later did everything to hide their past and pretend they were on the side of the 'goodies'. Apostolos Margaritis 10:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * We seem to have an accuracy problem: I'm sure none of the state's institutions were named in Greek, but I only know Romanian (I can speculate on Aromanian, but that's not the real deal).

Also, I did not mean to be gratuitous in my first post - the truth is I always wanted to know more abou this guy. However, you should think on linking some parts to the article for the "Principality" (unless it'll violate the agreement with the text's creator). Also, in my revision, I added Diamandi to "Fascists" - I don't think that that is in any way an exaggeration; could not really decide on wether to add him to "Romanian fascists", but tell me what you think, Apostolos.Dahn 10:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I typed this as I was getting your full reply. I'll expand on it. I am sure the subject matters, but the structure of it is hard to follow. You could have an article for "Collaborationsm in Greece", and add this to a "Vlach" section. It is actually quite fortunate that they chose to designate themselves in a closed circle: picture what it would mean to have, in a single article, all those who denounced ennemies of the people during Stalin :). It was my pleasure to help with the text.Dahn 10:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The little I know about Diamandi comes from Anthemides' book 'Oi Vlachoi' (Thessaloniki 1997). Despite of the more general title, this book deals a great deal with Diamandi whose name appears on the cover as a subtitle. If Anthemidhes is still around (maybe we get the old man to help us with the Wikipedia text< ha ha just joking) he must be in his late 70's early 80's. He is a Greek of Asian Minor descent whose family was settled, shortly before his birth in 1923 in Grevena, that is in a Vlach inhabited area. He alludes in the footnotes of this book at his anguish of having been bullied by the Vlach 'jocks' of the Romanian Lyceum of Grevena (quite flourishing in the interbelic period under the lead of its Head Master, one Mr. Ciumetti). Some Vlachs took delight to tease these newly arrived dubious Asia Minor or Pontian 'Greeks' whom they regarded as interlopers and intruders on their ancestral land. This trauma led to Anthemides becoming quite allergic to Vlachs: 'bona fide' credentials that gave him free access to the secretive National Greek Archives. In his book he uses the Greek names of these Vlachs incipient political structures. I cannot tell which were the original  names and in what language.


 * And no, I don't think either that it's an exaggeration to call him a 'fascist'. I think that Anthemides was given green light to publish this book with 'strings attached' if you know what I mean. His CV says post-graduate doctoral thesis in Marburg, Germany so he has to be accurate but in the same time he has to 'belittle' Diamandi and present him as a lone nutter. But Anthemides eventually shots himself in the foot when he writes that 'Diamandi succeded to gather only 300 Vlach legionnaires in Thessaly. 'Only' 300? I find this number quite high since Thessaly was annexed to Greece already in 1881. How come 300 Vlachs after 60 years of Greek rule still had double thoughts and reverted, turned against their 'homeland' by supporting the secessionist Diamandi? Antemidhes fails to explain this Apostolos Margaritis 16:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Good to know. I have but one question left on this topic: What is the Dekemvriana? It's mentioned in the first line of the quote I italicized, and I didn't know what to make of it. Perhaps you could link it to an article that already covers the meaning and/or offer a succint explenation? Oh, and also: should I move Diamandi from Fascists to the more specific subcategory Romanian fascists? I mean, does he qulify for Romanianness (Iron Guard and Antonescu connections) or is to be remembered as a Vlach autonomist/independantist?Dahn 23:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Good idea See here about the Dekemvriana revolt. As for Diamandi being Romanian he certainly was a Vlach roumanizonte (he was even Romania's consul). The roumanizontes Vlachs were simply a branch of the Romanians i.e. 'South of the Danube or Macedo-Romanians' while the Moldavians, Wallachians, Transylvanians etc. were north of tyhe Dabube or 'Daco' Romanians. I don't think we should fall into the Greek trap and further antagonize the Vlachs and their north-danubian Wallachian brethren. At the end of the day they're basically just one people spread from Maramures in the North to Thessaly in the South (in my humble opinion)

Where exactly was Diamandi consul?
A friend just e-mailed me confirming that Diamandi was the Consul of the Kingdom of Romania in Albania indeed, though not in Korce/Korcë/Corizza/Curceauă but in Vlora/Vlorë (aka Avlona or Valona). He has got an original copy of Dr. Thede Kahl's doctoral dissertation who writes on this particular detail at page 56. Kahl is quoting in his turn Lena Divani's doctoral thesis about the Italo-Romanian 'propaganda' among Vlachs. Apostolos Margaritis 14:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Cautios use of Greek historians' interpretation of events
I found out some stuff about Diamandi in Achileas Anthemidhes' book. Even more dissapointing is one Dr. Lena Livani also educated in Germany at Mannheim, who is deeply convinced that, I quote: 'During the ''Axis occupation of Greece the vast majority of the Vlachs of Greece, most probably latinised Greeks speaking a language related to Romanian, remained loyal to Greece despite the efforts of Italo-Romanian agents to create an independent Vlach state. The Vlachs proved to be immune to Romanian and Italian courting because they were fully integrated into the Greek state. As there had never been any discrimination there was no temptation to look for friends beyond the border. Neither the Romanians nor the Italians understood that a Vlach-question did not exist in Greece and that all efforts to use the Vlachs against Greece were doomed''' (The Vlachs of Greece and the Italo-Rumanian Propaganda - Lena Divani). Oh, dear! It seeems that Ms. Divani hasn't heard of Metaxa restricting the use of Vlach language and of his rebaptizing Vlach place names with made-up 'Hellenic' names. Apostolos Margaritis 16:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

From medieval Thessalian Wallachia to Diamandi's 'Principality': an outline of Vlach secessionist trends in Greece
Gosh! Another caption. This article is becoming a behemoth Apostolos Margaritis 11:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

DOB&DOD
Could somebody write his Dateof Birth and Date of Dead? Luka Jačov 18:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone knows them. Grounds for going into cats "Year of birth missing" and "Year of death missing"? Dahn 19:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The Greek broadsheet Kathimerini on Diamandi
article 30 October 2005

9. H Λεγεώνα της Pουμανίας ήταν η οργάνωση που συνέδραμε τον Aντονέσκου στην κατάκτηση και διατήρηση της αυταρχικής και φασιστικής εξουσίας του. H Pωμαϊκή Λεγεώνα, που εμφανίστηκε στη χώρα μας στις αρχές της Kατοχής, ήταν δημιούργημα του διαβόητου Aλκιβιάδη Διαμάντη και του ανερμάτιστου δικηγόρου της Λάρισας Nικολάου Mατούση και των Iταλών κατακτητών για την εξυπηρέτηση των αυτονομιστικών τους σχεδίων εις βάρος της χώρας μας με ίδρυση βλαχικού κράτους

Too much information not verified
Has anyone actually went into the trouble of finding some good sources for this article? The Anthemides book that's widely quoted here is itself based on myths and misconceptions. For those who can read Greek, check the following You will probably understand what I mean. Kostas G. 15:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And why don't you go through the trouble of finding some "good sources" for the article? Oh, I see, you just came by to be the critic... Dahn 15:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I already did. Yet, it seems that you did not look at the link I provided, where a good bibliography can be found. Kostas G. 11:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I cannot speak Greek. Dahn 12:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can, and at first sight the Greek article seems like nothing more than a POV. --Telex 13:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I kinda figured. :) Dahn 16:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Try a second sight... The truth is that the Greek article is based in an international bibliography and was presented at a conference after a peer-review process. It is based on a careful consideration of the events and tries to distinguish facts from common myths that cannot be verified and are often taken as facts. The current article about Diamantis has several misconceptions and myths. The fact that it is based on "popular" sources such as newspaper articles and non peer-review books by non-specialists makes it very succeptible to such kind of misconceptions and myths. The fact that one of its authors comes by the nickname "Apostolos Margaritis", a well known 19th century Aromanian nationalist makes me also question its NPOV status. I do not have the time to review and rewrite all articles in the various language versions of wikipedia regarding Damantis or the alleged creation of a Vlach state. I begun with the Greek ones and only suggested that you should have a second look at the english ones in lieu of some better sources.Kostas G. 21:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Since my username was mentioned above by the elusive (and not to be found around) Kostas G., let be be clear as to the refferences I used in the passage whose "neutralty" he now describes as "debatable". They are the likes of Emeritus Oxford Professor Richard Clogg, the Warwick University Professor Winnifrith, shall I mention more? Antimidhis himself was educated in Gottingen and has a Ph.D. Kostas has to accept that impartial history (the Vlach history included) is quite different to the one he was taught in the -all to often too patriotic- Greek schools. This is wikipedia and not some mythical purified version of patriotic history to match the Greek delussions as to who are the Vlachs and what their deeds really were Apostolos Margaritis 16:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Assessed as Start Class
I have assessed this article and tried to clean it up. The grammar still needs work and the references are dubious at best. An article this unusual (hidden history) needs inline citations to avoid the perception that it is ALL made up. The prose is verbose and aggrandizing which is not NPOV. Argos&#39;Dad 22:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess Diamandi and his Pindos state is a hoax at all.--85.126.27.6 13:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

His name
Alchiviad Diamandi di Samarina was his correct Aromanian name. Alcibiade is in Italian and Romanian Alkviadis in Greek. --Koppany 02:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Koppany why did you kill some years of discussion? --85.126.27.6 08:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Somehow I forgot to forward the discussion page. Maybe we can copy the old talk page here? --Koppany 13:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

old discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alkiviadis_Diamandi_di_Samarina

I guess Diamandi and his Pindos state is a hoax at all.--85.126.27.6 12:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I dont consider him a hoax at all. I found his date of birth and death → * Pocesul Comunismului. Neverteheless, it is evident that his principality was not an internationally recognized or even fully established state, much more an initiative to form an emerging autonomous state. Fixed borders, governmental structure and public administration were lacking. As I understand the case, Diamandi and his pro-Italian supporters was controlling some rural aereas in the Pindus montain and these zones were called by Diamandi cantons of the Principality. He called his state principality, but it might be called even kingdom or empire, the Italians didnt care as long as the prince was able to keep away Greek partizans and maintain a relative order in the Aromanian populated montaneous zone. When the prince was not able to fulfill this task anymore and started to cause trouble, he was sustituted by the Italian occupators with another guy. I'd draw a paralel between Diamandi's principality and Avhustyn Voloshyn's Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine or Lajtabánság. --Koppany 00:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There was never any sort of state. The militia of Diamandis always operated escorting the Italian forces and when the Italian forces left, replaced by the German forces, they also lost support of the occupying forces. In publications in newspapers, Diamandis never dared asked for anything else than self determination under the Italian occupation forces, demanding replacement of officials with Vlachs The Greek State replaced some officials with Vlachs loyal to Greece, dynamic people, in some cases from the army, to help support against the Legion's actions. --FocalPoint (talk) 10:02, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

About the paratroopers
From the article : "He took part in the interrogation of the leader of the party, Ion Adanucu, and of one of the wireless operators, George Varduli." ... "The subsequent fate of the party is not clear."

George Varduli is my grandfather's first cousin and I know him very well. He was imprisoned in Greece for 8 years and continued to live in Saloniki for the rest of his life. He died of prostate cancer last month (in april 2008) in his eighties. I was born in Romania, but i visited him several times and he also visited me. I enjoyed his war time stories including the parachuting mission. He was not a criminal. All he wanted was freedom for Aromanians who were opressed by the Greek state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.81.127.91 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Article name - proposal to move
The name of the subject of the article was Αλκιβιάδης Διαμάντης (Alkiviadis Diamandis), at least as far as the greek state is concerned (being a Greek subject). In 1917 he signed telegrams / letters as : Alcibiadi Diamandi, Alcibiade Diamandi and in 1942, in the proclamation of the Vlachs of Lower Balkans, as Al. C. Diamandi. Several sources are giving the name Alcibiades Diamandi There is no mention anywhere of the "Di Samarina" except in one self-printed reference (therefore not acceptable for Wikipedia as third party).

Our options are therefore as follows:
 * First name: Alkiviadis (Gr), Alcibiadi (1917), Alcibiade (1917), Alcibiades (En bibliography)
 * Surname: Diamandis (Gr), Diamandi (his preference, En bibliography)

My proposal, since we are in English Wikipedia, is to follow English bibliography and move the article to the name Alcibiades Diamandi, with redirection of the other versions. --FocalPoint (talk) 10:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. Appears to be a sensible mid-way point between the full transliteration of his Greek name and the Italianized version he used, and is used by scholars in relevant works. Constantine  ✍  11:35, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, I moved it. --FocalPoint (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:33, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Ottoman Empire or Greek expatriate in Romania
So where he was raised was in the Ottoman Empire until 1912, when it became part of Greece. The question is when did he study in Romania? If it was before 1912 he needs to be in Category:Expatriates of the Ottoman Empire in Romania. If after 1912 we need to place him in Category:Greek expatriates in Romania.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC)