Talk:Alcohol and Native Americans

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 January 2020 and 22 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Taymarshk.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2018 and 13 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Avocadhoe.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Khanzar, MYao, Gilperkins.

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Lots of editorial assumptions stated as facts
Example... the reason native Indians have more problems with alcohol are because the problem is passed down from one generation to the next and the first generation was inexperienced.

There are similar problems with other drugs, for example "sniffing glue"... lots of examples where the "drug" came into existence in recent history and same pattern. Alternative reasons could be given, eg theory of groups that have high unemployment (including inner city "black" youth) more likely to be vulnerable today to drug addiction problems.

In my opinion article would be better to state as theory rather than state as fact.

Similarly stated as fact that not genetic related based on not yet finding an obvious gene. Well known that for example dogs, cats and other animals can be breed to have specific traits such as good at hunting, herding sheep, etc. Scientists may not find the exact genes that causes a Collie to be a good shepherd dog but that doesn't by itself mean that a pitbull will shepherd sheep just as well as a Collie. In similar way over many generations of exposure to different social pressures and different "rewards" for having a type of personality it is possible that one culture may on average have advantages in some "traits" compared to another.

For example if you give a horse to a "native indian" who has never seen a horse before, he may on average naturally learn to bond with it better and be able to ride it without a saddle better than average person from a city background in Europe even if both kids are adopted from birth and raised in same family.

68.151.148.46 (talk) 18:27, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

What about Canada?
This isn't an issue exclusive to Americans - Canadians have similar difficulties. 70.72.201.229 (talk) 21:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

- Native Americans refers to the country of America. not the continents of North and/or South America. As such, any that are indigenous to Canada, are not Native Americans. Gotta be born in America to be indigenous to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.231.228.202 (talk) 11:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Article name
I propose changing the title to Native Americans and alcohol, to de-emphasize the use of the term "American Indian" which many find antiquated and offensive, and to make the title consistent with other articles regarding social problems on Native American reservations (i.e. Methamphetamine and Native Americans or Native Americans and reservation inequality). I also agree with the above post, but I feel perhaps that the issue of First Nations substance abuse should be an article of its own, titled First Nations and alcohol (similar to First Nations and diabetes, for example). Spaceboyjosh (talk) 16:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Article name
This article has been renamed from American Indian alcoholism to a name more consistent with articles about other social problems among Native Americans (i.e., Methamphetamine and Native Americans). Spaceboyjosh (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Alcohol before european settlers
This page seems to speak exclusively of the problems that developed with alcohol after the europeans started settling the americas. However, there is no information regarding alcohol usage in native american cultures before the colonization. So, obvious question that should probably be answered/clarified in the article: Did the native americans have alcohol before the arrival of european colonists, and if so what kinds? --85.191.86.135 (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that alcohol use was very rare among Native American cultures before contact. This should be backed up by research. Aztec people produced a fermented beverage from agave, but I don't know of any indigenous alcoholic beverages north of the valley of Mexico. Even Mexican tequila is a post-contact (16th century) develeopment. In the American South, yaupon tea was a popular source of caffeine and was ritually important, but there is no evidence AFAIK of alcohol use. — ℜ ob C. alias ALAROB 17:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Statistic
I Removed a reference to the rate of FAS being 70 times higher among Alaskan natives than the state average. That's a statistical impossibility, given the number of Alaskan natives living in the state. Presumably the original statistic was either "70 times higher than non-native population" or "70% higher than state average", but the link for the source is dead.--108.88.98.153 (talk) 08:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

irish, trailer parks
not sure where to ask this, but is there a similar article for irish and "hillbillies" or "rednecks" for lack of a better term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.180.114 (talk) 01:06, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Changes
There is no reference in the article to alcohol abuse prevention programs and programs designed to help people go to rehab. These programs are headed by the Indian Health Services, the healthcare provider of Native Americans. I will add an area about the work done by the Indian Health Services as well as the Tribal Action Plan, a plan to better increase education and risks associated with alcohol. Another thing was to move the categories of contributing factors and binge drinking under the umbrella category of alcohol abuse because that is the most logical grouping of ideas. Under the contributing factors should go the idea of genetic makeup influence, underage drinking, while addressing both ideas of the nature versus nurture debate. This seems to be the most controversial part of the article. If I address only one side, it seems that this would not be a full representation of the entire debate. I think these changes should be made to the article to increase the detail and accuracy of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romildcp (talk • contribs) 22:11, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review
I’m really impressed by the direction you’re interested in taking this article in, Romildcp. If anyone comes to the page looking for information, by adding information about the IHS and the Tribal Action Plan, you’ve made it helpful both to people in need of assistance and people simply seeking to learn more. I like also how you’ve buffed out the article with statistics that tell a compelling story with neutrality. My suggestion is that you add more citations within your text, as well as links to other articles (such as the IHS page). I would also look into finding appropriate images or figures, if you think they would enhance the overall article. Great job so far! Khanzar (talk) 01:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The growth of the article from the initial to expanded contribution is obvious – the article now provides a more complete historical picture of the issue and its nuances. Great work! I think the article is very readable, and to improve that facet even further, you could consider adding a graphic related to the topic. I mostly would like to see the inclusion of more citations within the article, especially in sections where there isn’t a single source cited (the entire History section, the "Disease and Death" subsection). Additionally, I would examine the language of the introductory paragraphs and consider rewording it. The two things that stick out to me in particular:
 * "Native Americans in the United States have historically had extreme difficulty with the use of alcohol." As the opening sentence, it seems like it could be presented with more neutrality.
 * "Use of alcohol varies by age, gender and tribe with women, and older women in particular, being least likely to be regular drinkers" is worded strangely.

(I mention these two things in particular because they are the first things a person will read on the page.) Let me know if you have any questions or how else I might be able to help you in the review process. Good luck! Khanzar (talk) 03:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review
I liked the sections added to 'Contributing factors.' The content was comprehensive and well-organized. The only suggestions I would make are to make the content more readable rather than a list of facts and to add more citations and links to other Wikipedia articles.

MYao (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)MYao

Peer Review
The information you added was very useful and unique. You provided information that would most likely be otherwise difficult to obtain. My only suggestion would be more links and citations! Gilperkins (talk) 02:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review
This article is extremely informative! I'm impressed with the way User:Romildcp was able to tie together a lot of information- history, cultural factors, societal problems that result from alcoholism, and differences among particular demographics and groups. This article gives a very good concise illustration of how multifaceted the issue is, without losing the message in too much irrelevant detail. My only suggestions would be to add some illustrations (maybe of some of the alcoholic beverages brewed by Native Americans before colonization, if those exist), and to ensure that the statements in the article maintain neutrality. Overall it looks good! Emily.johnson135 (talk) 00:58, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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Genetic factors may need to be modified
The statement, "there are no current discovered genetic or other biological anomalies that render Native peoples particularly vulnerable to alcoholism" is not accurate. Several genes have been identified as potential genetic/biological contributors to alcoholism, as well as substance abuse in general. See Evidence for a Genetic Component for Substance Dependence in Native Americans, Cindy L. Ehlers, PhD and Ian R. Gizer, Ph.D., Am J Psychiatry. 2013 Feb 1; 170(2): 154–164. grifterlake (talk) 17:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

“Active efforts are underway to build self-esteem among youth and to combat....”
I marked this as dubious because the citation is from the 1900s.Rich (talk) 02:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Section revised with updated research. Cmacauley (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Article name, topic
The first journal article cited in the article (Szlemko etal. 2006) begins with the paragraph:


 * "ALCOHOL USE AMONG NATIVE AMERICANS shares commonalities with alcohol use among other ethnicities; however, Native Americans’ uniqueness in terms of history, culture, and societal position has resulted in a distinct set of circumstances that are unlike those found in any other group. These circumstances are further complicated by the diversity within Native American groups. With over 500 federally recognized tribes, with each its own history, culture, and traditions, estimating the level of alcohol use and abuse is difficult, and preventions that work for one tribe may be inappropriate or even counterproductive in another. With these considerations in mind, in this article we will provide a review and insight into the current use and abuse preventions, and their implications for treatment programs for Native Americans."

Opening the article by paraphrasing this paragraph, and adopting the opening line as the title, would provide a clearer statement of the topic, which would be better focused on the public health issues, with support from the historical content, which currently seems out of balance. In particular I find the individual coverage of the temperance activists distracting.

I corrected the "author list" problem with this first citation, and may do the others. --WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Certainly the intro can be improved, but I don't agree that this paragraph is suitable. Of course Native Americans have certain unique characteristics, but the history of their relationship with alcohol is similar to that of aboriginal peoples in Australia and Tasmania, as is mentioned in the article, as well as Canada, the Pacific islands, and South America. While there are important differences between tribes, treatment programs adapted for Native Americans share significant common themes and strategies. The article does not focus exclusively on "current" abuse prevention, but also covers cultural and legal history. One purpose of including the temperance activists is to cover the evolution of Native American approaches to alcohol abuse, which have gone through several different phases, as outlined in the introduction to that section. Any reader not interested in that section is welcome to skip past it. Cmacauley (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Is "everything about alcohol and Native Americans" a coherent topic that is likely to result in a GA? Being an expert in the whole can make it difficult to see the forest for the trees, as I know well myself. The application of summary style can be difficult, but unless observed it results in readers not comprehending anything. If a topic is new to me, how do I know what sections to skip?


 * The amount of detail also brings up issues of due and undue weight. The temperance movement may be important, but is there a need for details on each leader? If there is a central topic that requires both the past and present to be covered fully, perhaps this needs to be a main article that summarizes two "daughter" articles, one on the history and the other on the current public health issues.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Most Wikipedia articles are comprehensive in scope, and the naive reader would do well to educate him/herself by encountering unfamiliar material. You can propose that this article be broken up, and see what the consensus is, but I feel that it makes just as much sense to place all relevant material under one heading. Temperance activists each operated in a social and political context that formed their views and actions. I have made an effort to convey some of that context here, to show how Native Americans themselves have responded to the problems created by alcohol abuse, and how each of them contributed to our current approach to treating alcohol abuse in Native communities. Alcohol abuse is not merely a public health issue, it is a psycho-social one embedded in Native American culture and the severe social pressures exerted over time by non-Native cultures and the US Government. Without understanding the cultural and historical context, the reader might wonder why recommendations for treatment should include a return to cultural roots, the emphasis on ceremony and ritual, and broader community changes which may seem irrelevant. I think that you lose that context by breaking the article into pieces.


 * I take it that you don't feel this article merits a GA nomination. Your main complaint seems to be that there is too much information here, and that much of it doesn't fall into a narrow "public health" scope, which you evidently feel is the most appropriate way of addressing this topic. I've worked professionally in public health for close to four decades, and I have learned that context is crucial to understanding the best solutions to public health problems. Public health is about society and culture and behavior, which is why those things are included in this article. Wikipedia is a source of information, and as such it is not always a quick and easy read. Breaking information into bite-size pieces makes it much harder to see the whole forest. Cmacauley (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I was thinking about a GA review, having been on the other side twice. My success was based upon my willingness to focus the articles on what the general public can understand, not what I as an expert thought they needed to know. Certainly the public needs to know that successful public health programs have come from treatments based upon indigenous cultures, which have historical roots, but they do not need to wade thought all the details currently in the article to understand that.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this guideline, Make technical articles understandable would be helpful. It divides readers into three categories; general, knowledgeable, and expert. I would place myself in the middle: having a background in psychology and community development and having worked for the past 8 years on articles related to the Native American mascot controversy. I have encountered the topic of Natives and alcohol, and read some of journal articles cited here. In addition to the technical details, this article at ~10,000 words would be impenetrable to the general reader. I see that there are two other editors who have made substantial contributions, but I do not know if you have any currently active collaborators, which would be helpful.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I see you have done what I was thinking; removing the individual biographies of activists but integrating some of that content into the history sections.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is the easiest section to adapt into a separate article. I will think about other changes; suggestions are welcome. Cmacauley (talk) 04:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Once the body is revised, the lead will need work. Shall I continue to convert the author parameters in citations to last,first lists to eliminate the "CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list" tags? I also see some references that do not use citation templates. Just minor cleanup, not content. However I have noticed one thing that is worrisome in looking at these citations, many seem to be primary research using public health data. Conclusions based upon data need to have secondary sources (literature reviews, books), otherwise this can be seen as original research (OR), in particular synthesis. Unfortunately OR includes "implied conclusions" when a series of primary sources are cited with no secondary source to support the meaning of that data. I see the citation by Wm. White "Response to French", but not the book being reviewed: , which appears to be a good secondary source, if a bit dated.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to revise the citations as you see fit. I had some difficulty finding good recent book sources, as many of the older publications are no longer relevant. I tried to rely mostly on sources published within the past 15 years. Many of the older sources have a tendency to study small samples in a particular region and extrapolate to all Native Americans, which is a flawed methodology. Some studies based their conclusions on primarily male samples, ignoring the significant differences in behavior and social pressures between men and women. Before I started editing this article, it contained many generalizations based on studies that were thirty or forty years old (a common problem with Wikipedia), and I did my best to use more up-to-date research pertinent to today's Native American population. Cmacauley (talk) 16:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory information on genetics
The article contradicts itself on whether some form of genetic predisposition exists. The "Contributing Factors" states: "Evidence that these genetic factors are more prevalent in Native Americans than other ethnic groups has been a subject of debate. According to one 2013 review of academic literature on the issue, there is a "substantial genetic component in Native Americans" and "most Native Americans lack protective variants seen in other populations." Many scientists have provided evidence of the genetic component of alcoholism by the biopsychosocial model of alcoholism, but the molecular genetics research currently has not found one specific gene that is responsible for the rates of alcoholism among Native Americans, implying the phenomenon may be due to an interplay of multiple genes and environmental factors." with citations of multiple academic papers, and, somewhat later: "''The scientific literature has refuted the claims to many of these myths by documenting the wide variability of alcohol problems across and within Native tribes and the very different response that certain individuals have to alcohol as opposed to others. Another important way that scientific literature has refuted these myths is by identifying that there are no known genetic or biological anomalies that render Native peoples particularly vulnerable to alcoholism." with a citation of one article in the Alcohol Treatment Quarterly'' and another in The Verge. The "wide variability" part is presented misleadingly, since statistical genetic differences can exist without being omnipresent or uniform. The "no known genetic or biological anomalies" part contradicts the "Genetic predisposition to alcoholism" section that precedes it, and the sources should be checked and the article changed to clearly state which of these ideas is true or scientifically supported. -- 2601:80:4580:E0E0:C582:699C:11F1:F4C3 (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The Verge article appears to violate WP:MEDPOP: "The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles"; neither does it fit the "cite a higher-quality source along with a more-accessible popular source" option (it does not specifically describe studies into the subject of genetics (which it is cited as describing), instead quoting the opinions of a professor and a PhD student and then summarizing some studies of other influences on alcoholism without addressing the latter's connexion to genetics). -- 2601:80:4580:E0E0:3CB6:7DDD:1111:6E36 (talk) 05:47, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no contradiction. The section clearly states that there is no real evidence that Native Americans as a group have a genetic predisposition to alcohol dependence. ONE review in 2013 found some support for a genetic component, but this is not proof, it is merely one study. The section offers plenty of citations on the debate surrounding this issue. The Myths section simply states that there is substantial evidence against the myths that claim that Native Americans are predisposed to alcohol dependence, are easily intoxicated, frequently become violent when intoxicated, and are incapable, as a people, of helping themselves. There are no known genetic or biological anomalies that render Native peoples particularly vulnerable to alcoholism, which does not imply that none exist--they have not yet been uncovered. The Verge article does seem inappropriate, and will be removed. And genetic traits are rarely expressed uniformly, but one would expect to see a pattern if there were indeed a genetic predisposition. The fact is that variability in alcohol abuse is equally as diverse among Native Americans as it is in any other ethnic group, as is demonstrated in the "Patterns" section, citing multiple different studies comparing Native Americans' alcohol use with other ethnic groups. Cmacauley (talk) 07:21, 6 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that there is no inherent contradiction between the citations themselves, but I think the issue here is in the wording of the article itself and the way the info from the sources is presented. The first quote has some nuance to it and gives us the impression that there is more work to be done, while the other quotes are a lot more categorical and describe a very strong consensus that there is no genetic predisposition. I don't know which view is more accurate, but I think some clarification could make the (already very good) article more consistent. Anarchocrudivorist (talk) 19:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Depictions in Film
For example in The Way West (film) "piooneers" "gift" all their liquor to a band of indians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CDA0:1060:D63:CF33:F223:ECD6 (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2022 (UTC)