Talk:Alderney

Not UK
Removed UK tag. The channel islands are not part of the UK, they are Crown dependencies.

First comments
I have lived on Alderney for several years and am going to make some changes. Alderney cows are no longer bred on the island, the only remaining populations are in the United States, butter and milk locally comes from Jersey cows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.73.220.198 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 19 April 2006

In June and July 1940, the States of Guernsey sent a work-party to recover the property of those Islanders who had fled before the German occupation. At the same time, they removed most of the cattle remaining on the island since it was very difficult for the few remaining islanders to milk them. On Guernsey, Alderney cattle were interbred with the local cattle and only the few animals left on Alderney were pure bred.

They were smaller, more slender boned animals than the cattle of the other islands and in some ways they were more deer-like than bovine. They were docile animals and would even follow children pacively to or from pastures. Their milk was copious and produced an extreemly rich butter.

The last pure bred cows on Alderney were eaten by the Germans in late 1944. The pure breed is now extinct. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Longis (talk • contribs)02:59, 11 August 2006.

MAX LIST SS OFFICER
The imputation in the article on History of Alderney is that Max List was Commandant of Alderney and was succeeded in 1944 by Col.(Oberst)Schwalm.

This is untrue.

Schwalm was Feldkommandant (responsible for the military) and Kommandant (responsible for civil administration)

Max List was initially Lager Kommandant - Sylt and SS (and Lists) authority was extended to Nordoney about three months after his arrival on Alderney.

At no time was he ever Feldommandant or Kommandant and his authority extended to administration of Sylt and Nordoney only. The other camps remained under the authority of the Organisation Todt until they were closed in 1944.

As far as I know, Schwalm never intervened in the administration of Sylt or Nordoney and List most certainly did not involve himself in the affairs of the Kommandantur, where he was not liked.

Col. Schwalm burned all of the camps and the camp records shortly before the arrival of British troops on 16 May. From memory, the remains of the camps were still smouldering when they arrived and I think their destruction occurred on 14 May.

I have no idea when the camp records were destroyed but my father thought it was as a result of an order on 8 May from Admiral Huffmeier (then Officer Commanding Channel Islands)to the effect that all records should be destroyed before arrival of the British, expected in Guernsey on 9 May, 1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.192.186.36 (talk • contribs) 12 August 2006
 * 1945, surely? Man vyi 05:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. 1945. Thankyou. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Longis (talk • contribs)14 August 2006.

OY and OU
The suffix 'oy' and 'ou' come from the Norse language spoken by the early Normans(Norseman) who settled Normandy in the 9/10th century.

They distinguished between an island (oy) usually inhabitable and an islet (ou) not habitable on a sustained basis, hence the difference between Alderney (Aaldernsoy) and its neighbour Barhou.

It is true that a number of islets (with names ending in ou) are now inhabitted due to technological and other advances but at the time of Norse settlement, this was not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longis (talk • contribs)
 * Extremely belated followup on this, apologies all, but Wikipedia has subsequently gained a whole (and reasonably well-sourced) article on the latter suffix: -hou.  Galloping summary, 'etym. uncert', but likely principally Anglo-Saxon.  109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

TREES
The article on Geography includes the assertion that 'Trees are rather scarce, as most, if not all, were cut down by the occupying German forces;'.

This not true.

Tree on Alderney were scarce - even before the German occupation - since they could only grow in sheltered areas and there were not too many of them. Before the war trees grew in some parts of town, down parts of Braye Road and of course in other protected areas like the walled Jardine Parmentier. It is true that the island was fairly well wooded until the seventeenth century but trees were then cut down to fuel the lighthouses on Alderney and the Casquets until replaced with imported coal.

Replanting was slow to occur and when the Germans arrived, they found a relatively barren island. They imported building materials - including all timber needs - from the mainland. After the Allied landings on Normandy, Alderney like all the other islands was subject to an allied blockade and supply from the Norman mainland quickly became impossible

During the winter of 1944,the German garrison ran out of fuel for heating and cooking. The Kommandantur formed Timber Parties which were sent out to recover timber from houses and other buildings which were not being used by the Germans or occupied by civilians.

These Parties recovered timber by tearing the wooden content out of buildings - doors, staircases, window frames, bearers and joists, floor boards - with the result that most houses in town were left in ruins.

However, very few of the trees on the island were put to the German axe - they had other things to kill - in fact I can not recall any trees being chopped down by them.

I do remember going down to Crabby with my grandmother to collect twigs - and if very lucky a whole tree branch - to be used as firewood at home (our one sometimes heated room - the kitchen)and that was in early 1945, a difficult time since it was hard to keep warm because of the shortage of food, firewood or coal and the unavailability of clothing.

We did not often go to bed shivering and unable to get really warm under the blankets but the winter of 1944-45 was an exception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longis (talk • contribs)


 * In my experience, many of the trees in Alderney are pretty small. But if you want treeless, you can see most of my country - Scotland! (Although we do have big trees here and there!) --MacRusgail 22:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

ARRIVAL OF SS
The article states in part that:  'In 1942, the Norderney camp, containing Russian and Polish POWs, and Sylt camp, holding Jews, were placed under the control of the SS Haupsturmfuhrer Max List.'

This is wrong. From memory, Max List headed a group of SS officers and prison guards who arrived in Alderney either in late February or very early March, 1943 and not in 1942 as stated in the article cited above.

Prior to the arrival of Max List, Nordeney did contain Poles and Russians - including some Ukrainians. List took control of Sylt on arrival and from then until its closure (June 1944) it contained Jews.

In late May, 1943 List took over control of part of Nordeney to accommodate Jews, mostly French, who could not be held at Sylt which by then was full. The part of Nordeney holding Jews was fenced off with barbed wire to separate it from the part controlled by the Organisation Todt.

In June or July, 1943 (I think it was June?) the SS took over full responsibility for the operation of Nordeney and the fence was removed sometime after that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longis (talk • contribs)

MENTION OF NEUENGAMME
The article on HISTORY states in part that 'The Germans built four concentration camps on the island, depending on Neuengamme.'.

The phrase 'depending on Neuengamme' makes no sense.

The four Concentration Camps built on Alderney were built to accommodate a labour force 'recruited' by the Organisation Todt to work on the fortification of the island. Those workers had no connection with Neuengamme.

Neungamme was a concentration camp operated by the SS in a Hamburg suburb of the same name to hold Jews and those who opposed the Party.

As far as I know, the only connection between Alderney and Nuengamme is Haupsturmführer Maximillian List, an SS Officer who was responsible for transporting a number of prisonersw from Neuengamme to Alderney for use as forced labour in the building of military fortifications.

On arrival in Alderney, List took over control of the Sylt Concentration Camp and in addtion, he subsequently took over control of Nordeney Concentration Camp. Both camps had previously been under the control of the Organisation Todt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longis (talk • contribs)

ALDERNEY CATTLE
In June and July 1940, the States of Guernsey sent a work-party to recover the property of those Islanders who had fled before the German occupation. At the same time, they removed most of the cattle remaining on the island since it was very difficult for the few remaining islanders to milk them. On Guernsey, Alderney cattle were interbred with the local cattle and only the few animals left on Alderney were pure bred.

They were smaller, more slender boned animals than the cattle of the other islands and in some ways they were more deer-like than bovine. They were docile animals and would even follow children pacively to or from pastures. Their milk was copious and produced an extreemly rich butter.

The last pure bred cows on Alderney were eaten by the Germans in late 1944. The pure breed is now extinct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longis (talk • contribs)


 * Keep in mind headings need not be in capital letters. --Wafulz 02:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Signing comments
Please sign your name (using four tildes) when writing the above comments! Also, if you have suggestions for changes to the article, it is easiest if you make them directly to the article yourself rather than setting them out on this talk page (though if they are controversial changes it is best to summarize them here first, so other people can comment). Ben Finn I have added your above changes re trees and Alderney cattle (mostly to the separate article Alderney cattle. 16:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Older history
I think there should be more on the older history of the island - Celts, Romans, whoever. I'm not sure what went on there, but Jersey, Herm etc have a lot more on that than this article --AW 19:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The trouble is that not a great deal is known about the early history. There are some archaeological remains from the stone age, but little is known. The Romans didn't have a big presence, if any there, and the Celtic element in Channel Island history is one big mystery too - although it appears that they fell under Breton control at one point, and their influence can be seen in some of the saints' dedications in the islands. --MacRusgail 22:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

UFO
Can someone add a bit about the monstrous UFOs, that the pilot saw off Alderney, please! --MacRusgail 22:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know enough to write an article but i have some info - They were cigar shaped and glowing - Seen not just by the pilot but by the passengers and the pilot of another plane - Not been confirmed as to what they are, theories include Alien Spacecraft, Military Aircraft out of the not-so-distant testing zone, and figments of the imagination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.30.6.137 (talk) 22:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Alderney coat of arms.png
Image:Alderney coat of arms.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Nicknames
I have lived on Alderney for 16 years and i have never been called a 'lapin' or been reffered to as a 'ridunian' so I took that bit out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lloyd sebire (talk • contribs) 13:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I replaced info with refs. I'll continue to call you a lapin, and you can call me a crapaud :-) Man vyi 19:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find that nobody really knows what to call us "Aldernians". I think the most commonly used term for us is "2000-drunks-clinging-to-a-rock" Alderney people can you please agree here...i live in Alderney, go to school in Guernsey, and nobody has ever called me a "lapin" or, indeed, do they know WHAT to call me. "crapaud" and "donkey" (terms for guernsey locals and jersey locals) are in regular use, and are often heard in every-day talk and rivalry. Alderney are not a part of this rivalry and therefore, it is most likely that the term "lapin" died out year ago. Jo Woodnutt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.30.6.137 (talk) 22:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason for that is fairly obvious - Channel Island culture has been largely wiped out especially in Alderney. Most of the population consists of English colonists these days who don't know the old language - and the natives are nearly all plastic English now who have little knowledge of how things were a century ago.

Quarry Parties
There is a great facebook group page about Quarry parties (and alderney itself) if anybody can reference it/ link it to the page somehow (m not proficient enough!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.30.6.137 (talk) 22:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Advert
Perhaps the section on Alderney Week could be re-written? Wikipedia is not a free advertising service. --81.102.234.88 (talk) 02:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Area of Alderney
I have been looking for reliable evidence of the area of Alderney. The answers are various. Here are some, converted into hectares so that the acres, square miles and square kilometres can be compared:


 * 769.712 hectares 1902 acres
 * 776.996 hectares 3 square miles
 * 793.993 hectares 1962 acres
 * 800.000 hectares 8 squ km
 * 809.371 hectares 2000 acres

Every hectare of difference is almost a football field, a square 100 metres long on each side. The difference between the highest and lowest figures above is about 5 per cent. That's like misjudging someone's height by about 8 cm or 3 inches.

Does anyone know what is the accurate size of Alderney? Michael Glass (talk) 10:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

War crimes
I'm not entirely happy about this section. I know it isn't meant to, but listing all the defendants makes it look like a roll of honour/memorial; particularly as the airmen they killed aren't named. A summary "Fifteen men were tried for the crime, and two sentenced to death." would cover it.

And what about the men guarding the camps, (arguably a much bigger crime). Did they get away with it? That also needs mentioning. Moonraker12 (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, done. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Death camp
I object to the use of the term "death camp" in reference to any of the camps at Alderney. I will change this here and in other articles covering the camps at Alderney in a few days. If you are opposed to these plans please discuss here: Talk:Lager Sylt. 92.229.191.78 (talk) 06:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Language
Is French an official language or not? The Infobox says that it is; the text says that it no longer is. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The Race
I've corrected the French name of the Race of Aldrney. It is known as the "Raz Blanchard". The "Raz" on its own is at the westernmost tip of Brittany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.118.121 (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Population
The article puts the 2013 population at 1,600, but I don't see any source for that. The population in 2012 was 2,091 according to this Island in depopulation crisis Danrok (talk) 22:44, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed it now, using this document as a source: Alderney Annual Economic Statistical Report Danrok (talk) 22:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Nazi Prisoner Deaths
The figures for deaths of prisoners/slave workers at the four WWII Nazi labour camps is not undisputed, and have been sometimes understated or exaggerated. I have raised citation needs against the figure of 700 given in this article and 440 in another article (List of internment camps). The figures are examined extensively in Madeleine Bunting's book The Model Occupation, The Channel Islands under German Rule, 1940-1945 (1995), concluding (page 291, chapter headed 'Justice Done?'): The rough consensus is that between twenty and twenty-five per cent of the OT slave workers and SS prisoners on Alderney died, making a final death toll of between 1000 and 1250 on this one island.Cloptonson (talk) 13:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Alderney blocks investigation
According to a Smithsonian documentary "Adolf Island" the government of Alderney blocked and prohibited investigations into mass graves on the island by Staffordshire University's Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls. https://www.staffs.ac.uk/news/2019/06/documentary-about-staffs-uni-investigation-on-alderney-to-premiere — Preceding unsigned comment added by ND200 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Politics
Some word are undefined in sentence in "Politics" section.

For example "
 * 4 Douzainiers (elected annually by the ratepayers)
 * a Douzainier-Delegate (appointed by the Douzaine)"
 * 3 People's Deputies (elected by the voters for a three-year mandate; added in 1923)"

And so, are ratepayers different from people? --109.55.6.89 (talk) 20:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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New information about Nazi order to kill prisoners
Here is some new information about a 1943 Nazi order to kill prisoners on Alderney: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/himmler-execution-prisoners-britain-nazi-concentration-camp 2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 (talk) 20:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)