Talk:Aleamotuʻa/Archive 1

Need more sources for this article
This article is to reflect the factual information on Aleamotu'a based on the Official History and Family History and Geneologies. The History of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are tied very closely during this time. The Palace Office website and Tongan Geneologies support these facts and the line of the Tu'i Kanokupolu.

In 1996, Taufa'ahau Tupou IV held a commomeration Services in Mala'e'aloa, to commemorate 200 years of Christianity in Tonga. Tupou IV in his speech honored Aleamotu'a as the first Tu'i Kanokupolu to accept Christianity and where Christianity blossom from Nuku'alofa. Taufa'ahau also honored Queen Halaevalu and Fielakepa as the grandchildren of Aleamotu'a. Fielakepa on that day also make the welcoming speech for all who attended the Service at Mala'e'aloa.

It is recently that the Namoa (Aleamotu'a younger brother)decentants claimed that Namoa was bapitised as Josiah Tupou and its Namoa was King to the contrary of Tongan, Samoan, Fijian and the early Methodist Church Histories. This is excusable since they are generally known for that characters of self promotion but lack in the academic department.

Josiah is taken as the bapitised names from the bible after the King of Judea who destroy the idols and return the people of Israel to worship their true God. Moala the daughter of Soakai from Felemea was bapitised as Mary from the bible thus, Mele Moala.

The list of Josiah Tupou can be traced as followed: Fielakepa (Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a)3rd Fielakapea and Governor of Ha'apai from Aleamotu'a family, 2. Tuita Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a or the late Baron Tuita, Minister of Land is the father of the current Tuita (Ma'ulupekotofa) and Minister of Land. 3. Fielakepa Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a is the current Fielakepa, the 5th Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family former Governor of Ha'apai and Minister of Land. 4. Siosaia is also used by Tuku'aho's & Sunia Mafile'o's great grandchildren from Kolomotu'a as Siosaia Lausi'i from Faletu'uloto and Siosaia Lausi'i Ma'afu the currently Ma'afu Tukui'aulahi, Minister of Environment. 5. Siaosi is also used by Aleamotu'a family in honour of Siaosi Tupou I (Taufa'ahau Tupou I) in Siaosi Niumeitolu, Siaosi Maeakafa, Siaosi Takalafatu.


 * Please - cite a source. Just adding words to this talk page has no evidentiary value at all. And, for heaven's sake, do NOT use snippets from Google Books to build a case! --Alvestrand (talk) 17:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * To build on that, if there is a GoogleBook link, please include that between brackets [ ] to make it clickable. Also, the current "Sources" section is nowhere near as helpful as a proper set of footnotes.  Instead of just listing random books and quotes from it, please tie the sources into the article they supposedly support.  Just write them as a proper footnote, put the info between tags, and insert the info after the fact they verify. MatthewVanitas (talk) 00:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note also that building a case by combining snippets from 42 books very easily turns into WP:SYNTHESIS, something we're not supposed to do under the No Original Research rule. If one book has it, cite that. --Alvestrand (talk) 06:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

IPs keep changing location names for no clear reason. What's the deal?
Just for reference, IPs are frequently changing location names with zero explanation, which sees awfully fishy. A given event either happened at A or B, and somewhere in the huge unformatted list of sources must lie the truth. Note Current revision as of 20:46, 27 November 2009  by 64.129.83.2, where he changes several mentions of Kolomotu'a to Nuku'alofa with no explanation. Rather suspect... MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

The whole idea is to collect and show all the sources available and to put them in some senses. The changing IP show that this is a project with different but coordinated contributions from different individual and relatives. This should be improved over times when individual have times to work on it but right now some of us have other things to do. You are welcome to google search these books and add on the direct link or start making the footnotes when you have found the source as mentioned.. Tupou —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.31.19.50 (talk) 16:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, so what's the utility in IPs changing all the locations? An event either happened in X place or Y place; it doesn't bode well for accuracy when the story keeps changing.  Further, little to no attempt has been made to indicate exactly which facts are proved by which source.  Further, the writing style of the article is nearly incomprehensible.  I've tried to clean it up several times, and IP editors keep bouncing in to destroy sentence structure, employ poor spelling and punctuation, etc.  Plus, if people are sincerely interested in working on Polynesia articles, why don't they sign up for a Wikipedia account (which takes literally four minutes or so) rather than edit from IPs?  With IP addresses, you really can't track who's making what changes, and can't communicate with them unless they always use the same computer.  The whole situation of the article just smacks of chaos and inaccuracy. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Conflicting Identity
Aleamotu'a is 18th Tui Kanokupolu and the son of Mumui the 13 Tui Kanokupolu and Kaufusi, daughter of Fielakepa. He was elected by the Ha'a Havea and installed at the Koka Tree in Hihifo on the 7th December 1826 and passed away in 1845.

Accepted Christianity from the Tahitian LMS Missionaries Hape and Tafeta (1826) and later babitised as Josiah Tupou on 10 January 1830. He was married to Moala daughter of Soakai from Felemea who was babitised as Mary and later known as Mele Moala.

If Namoa was Tu'i Kanokupolu, then he was the 18 and a 1/2 Tu'i Kanokupolu since Taufa'ahau is the 19th Tu'i Kanokupolu. So Namoa ia a 1/2 Tu'i like his relatives who claim they accepted Christianity and Tu'i Kanokupolu. Aleamotu'a is a grandson of Fielakepa and the Fielakepa title was given by Tupou II to Aleamotu'a's grandson Tongaliuaki.

Please refer to these books:

a. To live among the Stars: Christian Origin in Oceania by John Garret, 1982. b. A pioneer, a memoir of J. Thomas, MISSIONARY TO THE FRIENDLY ISLANDS, by G. STEINGER EOWE, 1885. c. Anthropos, Volume 88, By Österreichische Leo-Gesellschaft, Görres-Gesellschaft, Anthropos Institute, page 139 d. Friendly and Feejee islands, a missionary visit, ed. by E. Hoole By Walter Lawry e. The history of the Wesleyan Methodist missionary society, Volume 3, By George Gillanders Findlay, William West Holdsworth

These are a few sample of books they will help show some light and if not go to the official Tongan History. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faletuipapai (talk • contribs) 12:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Editors disrupting article; please follow basic Wikipedia editing guidelines, explain your changes in Edit Summary, and hit Preview before saving
This article has a consistent problem with editors, both IPs and registered, making sweeping changes and yet following absolutely none of Wikipedias protocols, even those which should be observable by glancing at practically any other article. Faletuipapai′s recent edits removed the category, the lede, changed major facts, included no footnotes, and left a huge ″no reflist tag appears″ red warning on the page. Similarly, another editor keeps removing the ″no footnotes″ tag, despite the article clearly having no footnotes, and then puts brackets around random words in hopes that footnotes will appear, with no understanding of how to add a footnote. If you want a foonote, simply place the footnote text (standard academic foonote, just like in school) between the tags like so. or similar. Please familiarise yourself with the very most basic organisational structures of Wikipedia before making such changes, and glance at another article, hitting ″Edit″ to observe how its wiki script is written, if you need some ideas of what an article should look like. Please also hit ′′Show preview′′ before saving your edits, to ensure that the article doesn′t have unintended formatting errors (as occurred in multiple ways in a recent edit). Absolutely regardless of how correct your information may or may not be (and even the most basic facts of this article keep changing in ways that compeltely destroy its credibility), your article is of no use if its simply tossed up on the page as text with no thought to integrating it into Wikipedia through proper sections, a lede, wikilinks, foonotes, and a category. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Yet again, discuss major changes, and please don't destroy article formatting
For an article on such an obscure subject, this one has been through massive internal changes, generally with absolutely no communication between opposing editors. You have to come to Discussion and explain why one version or another is unacceptable. Barring that, I've just reverted to the last version that looked like someone put actual work into it (footnoting, etc.) Further, multiple editors have lopped off the categories each time they've edited. Is there some particular objection to the categories, or are people not even looking at their version of the article to make sure it functions within Wikipedia? MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Setting the Record Straight and a challenge to prove your point!!
My last edit for this article is to show the fact about Aleamotu'a as in the Official History of Tonga and supported by the facts recorded by Methodist and Catholic missionaries.

Some people confused Aleamotu'a the 18th Tu'i Kanokupolu and his grandfather and uncle Fielakepa, a Ha'a Havea chief, the clan created by the sons of the 3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu. The Ha'a Havea chief are Ma'afu Tukui'aulahi, Vaea, Lavaka, Fielakepa, Fohe, Tu'ivakano and Lasike.

Aleamotu'a was installed Tu'i Kanokupolu and why will he give up the Tu'i Kanokupolu or King's title and take up a chief title as professed by some people and what references those people have that proved their allegation.

Aleamotu'a or Josiah Tupou's sons are Henele Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga and Niumeitolu. Ma'afu (Tu'i Lau) left to Fiji and Niumeitolu left to Samoa after Taufa'ahau was named the 19th Tu'i Kanokupolu. The only legitimate male line from Aleamotu'a are from Niumeitolu and they are the current Aleamotu'a family in Kolomotu'a. The older son Ma'afu's line come through an illegitimate daughter who is Vahoi who have another daughter Heuifanga who have Queen Halaevalu and end with King George Tupou V.The King never give any title to Ma'afu's son, Siale'ataongo, as Ma'afu asked the King that he will leave Tonga and will make Fiji his country. Siale'ataongo returned to Tonga after Ma'afu's death but the King never gave him any title.

Taufa'ahau Tupou II gave the Fielakepa title to a grandson of Aleamotu'a, the son of Niumeitolu who return from Samoa and he is known as Fielakepa Tongaliuaki, the first Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family. The Aleamotu'a family still lived in Kolomotu'a in the family land with the additional estate of Havelu as the oldest will have the Fielakepa title but the family maintain their family names of Aleamotu'a.

Queen Salote and Taufa'ahau Tupou iV also bestowed on the Fielakepas from the Aleamotu'a family the Governor of Ha'apai on three ocassion as additional responsibility to looking after Havelu, the Fielakepa traditional estate. Fielakepa took up the Ha'apai Governor although Fielakepa have no estate or relation in Ha'apai but their bloodline of the Aleamotu'a have a Ha'apai connection to Soakai of Felemea since Aleamotu'a married Mele Moala the daughter of Soakai from Felemea. That is why the Toa ko Ma'afu is on the Sia ko Veiongo in Kolomotu'a and the 'Esi 'o Ma'afu is on Felemea. The Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family are as follow: a. Fielakepa (Tongaliuaki Aleamotu'a) b. Fielakepa (Siaosi Niumeitolu Aleamotu'a) Governor of Ha'apai c. Fielakepa (Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a) Governor of Ha'apai d. Fielakepa (Paula Longolongo'atumai ALeamotu'a) e. Fielakepa (Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a) Former Governor of Ha'apai and Minister of Land.

I like to see how the Namoa kids not only claim Josiah Tupou contrary to history and still failed to give us a reference to prove. The reference they quoted is to proved Fielakepa as an oldman turn to lotu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puakatau (talk • contribs) 11:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Anacrossan rebuttal
It appears that when I put back or restored the article Aleamotu'a it's erased again after. What i would like to discuss that the information I tried to restore is correct. In reference to quotation by Mr.Cross ( pioneer missionary) he identified that Tubou is a relative of Aleamotu'a (Fielakeba). There was only one Tupou/ Tubou in that period of 1800s and that is Tubou ( Namoa). Tubou or Namoa became King Siosaia Tupou in 1830 and died in 1845 at the age of about 90 years old.

It is not true that Aleamotu'a was baptised in 1830 and adopt the title Siosaia Tupou. The Aleamotu'a, was never known as Tupou or Siosaia Tupou. He was known only as Aleamotu'a and was crowned as King Aleamotu'a. His heirs are hereditary heirs to the noble title Fielakepa. They hold the surname of Aleamotu'a up to date. They are also refer to as owners of specific title as Ma'afu. For example, Aleamotu'a male heir was known as Ma'afu/ Ma'afu'otu'itonga, also known to Fiji as Enele Ma'afu. Aleamotu'a and his heirs never known or hold the title/ surname : Tupou. However, the heirs of Namoa or King Siosaia Tupou, do hold the surname or hold the title: Tupou. However, the the surname Tupou was later extended by adding the title, Niumeitolu. But the title Tupou is still kept as middle name or as surname.

I question the claim that Aleamotu'a was Tupou and one of the 13/ 17 children of King Mumui and Kaufusi. By examining that claim and source provided, it is evident that the sons and grandchildren of Tupou (Namoa), Aleamotu'a and Tuku'aho suddenly became their siblings! For example, Tangata'olakepa, the son of Tupou( Namoa) in that geneaology provided as source by Puakatau,appears as the oldest brother of Tupou(Namoa), Aleamotu'a and Tuku'aho. In other words, the seventeen/ thirteen children or 34 children of King Mumui are the grandchildren and sons of Tupou(Namoa), Aleamotu'a,etc.

In addition the claim that Filakeba is not Aleamotu'a but the grandfather of Aleamotu'a, is incorrect. If Aleamotu'a at that time in 1827, is over his 70's and a grandson of that old Filakeba. This means that the poor old Fielakeba may be over 120 years old! A world record to me alright. The truth here is that the old Filakeba is Aleamotu'a. He did have authority and declared authority to his people because he was King Aleamotu'a, the King of Tonga. This on line with what Mr Cross quotedand described that Filakeba was a person with considerable note!

Addition, I question the other sources provided by Puakatau or the other editor, for example, Royal Ark genealogy. The royal Ark geneaology is well known for its great misinformation and inaccuracies

To conclude my talk or discussion, I do agree that I need to improve my article on Aleamotu'a, and I must admit I need a bit of help, I think more than little, in editing and to improve it. However the bottom line here that what I provided are accurate information. I could extend here, but may be I talk too much. I think that's about it for the time being. Thank you for your help and advise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 12:08, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Anacrossan, I greatly appreciate your coming in to clarify your stance, and your willingness to continue to learn Wikipedia techniques. I suggest we give Puakatau a few days to address your concerns, and it's quite possible that we can identify the misunderstanding and get the article back on the right track.  It is entirely possible that you have a strong case, and now that we're talking on one page it'll be a ton easier to sort out the issue.  If it turns out that there are two separate, documented schools of thought on the issue, we may have to document the controversy;  not in terms of individuals perceptions, but in terms of any controversy within published scholarship.  MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Good Day, Thank you Matthew, I am looking forward for the continue dialoque to resolve this. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 21:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Showing lights to some part of the Family
Thank you Matthew for the opportunity to research this topic and try to make Wikipedia a serious reference for the public to use and not a medium to promote self interest.

I believe that to set the record straight, the person who challenges the article should work to check the references quoted first as I have put some effort by using the: 1. Offical Tongan Palace Office Site and some Traditional genealogy website, 2. Methodist Missionaries, 3. Catholic Missionaries and 4. Academia's research.

My only explanation for the confusion identify is a lack of understanding on the following issue:

1. Tupou is more commonly used to refer to the Tu'i Kanokupolu after Josiah Tupou, King George Taufa'ahau Tupou also recognised as Tupou I, Taufa'ahau Tupou II was Taufa'ahau Tupou, Queen Salote Tupou III, Taufa'ahau Tupou IV and now George Tupou V, and they all follow the tradition of you are name as something when you are born, become a chief with a name and then become King with another version of the name but with Tupou in it. .eg. Siaosi Manumataongo Tuku'aho, became Tupouto'a as a chief and then King George Tupou V. Some people used Tupou as a surname for their own reason and some does not understand that Tupou is used by the Royal family as a King's title while the current Royal family surname is Tuku'aho. When some traditional greeting especially around the Tu'i Kanokupolu area, the King sometime is addressed but the people as Tupou designating a feeling of closeness to the King.e.g Lakoifie 'a Tupou meaning Good morning Tupou (Tu'i Kanokupolu)

2. In pre christian Tonga; Tupou or Tubou is a chiefly name and it is never a stand alone name. Tubou designating a strong person or strength is always follow with a suffixed as an identidy as: Tupou 'i FaleTuipapai, Tupou Toutai, Tupou Malohi, Tupouto'a etc

3. Aleamotu'a: Is the name used when he was born and grow up a child and a child and Tupou 'i Fale Tuipapai is the name when he was recognised as a young chief and Tui Kanokupolu. Josiah Tupou was his baptised name as recorded by the missionaries. Aleamotu'a is used by the family as to designate their ancestor and a humility since Tupou is a chiefly name that designate the King Tu'i Kanokupolu.

4. Fielakepa is the chief's title of Havelu from the Ha'a Havea Lahi Clan. This clan was started by the sons of the 3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu, Mateletu'apiko and second in seniority to the Ha'a Ngata, sons and relatives of the first Tu'i Kanokupolu, Ngata. Aleamotu'a is the son of Mumui, 13th Tu'i Kanokupolu.

5. Aleamotu'a was the 1st Fielakepa's grandson. Aleamotu'a's mother Kaufusi was the daughter of Fielakepa. So when Mr Thomas talked about Fielakepa the relative of Tupou, he was refering to Fielakepa as the Tu'i Kanokupolu relative. This Fielakepa is most likely Kaufusi's brother and Aleamotu'a's uncle or fa'etangata but not designating the born name of the the Fielakepa, we can never be sure, but very unlikely as Anacrossan correctly stated to be the grandfather or he will be 120 years old..

6. Aleamotu'a's two son left Tonga after George Taufa'ahau was named King or Tu'i Kanokupolu. The oldest son, Henele Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga was named after the 6th Tu'i Kanokupolu, Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga. Ma'afu left to Fiji and became the 1st Tu'i LAu and his son Siale'ataongo only have illegitimate daughter who married to other chiefs and her granddaughter Queen Halaevalu MAta'aho is the mother of King George Tupou V.

7. Aleamotu'a second son, Niumeitolu left to Samoa and married a Samoan. Niumeitolu bought his family back to Tonga and in 1927 the chief Fielakepa died without a son. Queen Salote betowed up on Niumeitolu's son, Tonga Liuaki, the title Fielakepa, chief of Havelu. The Fielakepa now is from the Aleamotu'a family and they still maintained their Aleamotu'a surname to designate their ancestor as the Royal Family maintained Tuku'aho as their surname to deisgnate their anscestors.

8. Differentiate the Titles from Names: Fielakepa, Tu'i Kanokupolu are titles while Aleamotu'a, Henele Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga are names. Title is hold by someone until he is dead and title will go to the next one person. People can be also named after their relatives or ancestor so you have to know what is a title and what is name. It seemed your families used the Aleamotu'a's son name as a surname and that is quiet normal since they are all inter-related.

9. My last advised is to read Dr Rev. Henele Taliai Niumeitolu doctorate thesis, which is mention in the article references and a few chapter on Aleamotu'a. This relatives of yours is a perfect example of names when you see it we all know he is related to which family: Niumeitolu, Taliai Tupou, Helene Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga and we all know he is our relatives.

May be I will wait adding other section to the article until Anacrossan finished checking the references and talk with Rev. Dr Niumeitolu, her own relatives so I wont hurt her feeling.

thanks guys

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.203.34 (talk) 15:49, 6 July 2010 (UTC) Puakatau (talk) 14:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I do find Puakatau's comment, that, " I don't want to hurt her..."( referring to me),  patronising ! However, to get back to the discussion of article : Aleamotu'a. 1) The shifting claim by Puakatau that the old Filakeba, is now or may be a maternal uncle of King Aleamotu'a not Aleamotu'a's grandfather. Prior to this, Puakatau did mentioned that the old Filakeba was King Aleamotu'a/ "Tupou"'s grandfather. My argument here is that in those early periods, the noble title, goes to male heirs, only. As Tonga was very much a patriarchial society. Therefore in those era, Aleamotu'a will not inherit the noble title Filakepa, because he is a descendant of a female. Also, I find it puzzling that a number 13th/ 17th son became King, and not his older siblings. I stated here that the old Filakeba, is King Aleamotu'a. The other person, Tupou (Tubou) is Namoa(Siosaia Tupou). 2) The quotations, provided by Puakatau, for example, "That Siosaia Tupou fell ill after visiting his grandson at Eua? However according to the right source: Rev. Ernest Crosby, 1846: It was Taufa'ahau who went to Eua, not Siosaia Tupou! I find the informatin provided by Puakatau misleading. A misquoted of the source. 3) Puakatau, said that the title: Tupou,  do not stand by itself but accompanied by another title. This is not true. King Mumui, his title was Tupou, and with no other associated name/ title. Namoa, also known at his young adult life stage as: Tupou. 4)  Though Puakatau is from the Tonga Palace Office, it is clear that the information he provided can be quite vague and he seems not to have a clear and in depth knowledge of it. Which one can understand that the history section of Palace Office in Tonga was only set up in late 1950's ? The information collected then were either distorted or limited. As those information were collected from many unreliable sources. It is also known that many information collected by this office as not valid and bias. It serves some Tonga individuals best and consolidated their vested interest or validate their status in society. Any queries from outside will be ridiculed or be forced to silent. I still stress here that the original owner or title holder of Fielakepa was King Aleamotu'a. King Aleamotu'a bestowed the noble title Fielakepa on himself in about 1825/ 26.

Talk to you again later, Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 13:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

END GAME?

I believe to advance this debate there are certain things that should be done first:

1. Anacrossan, for the love of God, put up some reference that will say; a. That Namoa was baptized..... or along that line. b. That Aleamotu'a became Fielakepa... or somehing along that line. c. Reference every statement of facts that you have alleged.

2. Anacrossan, please check the references provided in the article as it was to show you that even though the Methodist and Catholics were in competition, their writing confirmed each other on these facts. The reference confirmed each other even though they were different writers.

3. T answer some question from you: a. Mumui was address as Tupou as he is a Tu'i Kanokupolu. b. That was what I said; when the writers did not specify which Fielakepa was it, we will never know which Fielakepa was it. For the Fielakepa lines you can see that in most genealogy web or book. c. How can a King give up the Kingship and become a Chief if that was what you alleged. A King only lost the Kingship if he lost the War or if he gave up the Tu'i Kanokupolu and take up the more senior Kingship, the Tu'i Ha'atakalaua as Mulikiha'amea did.

4. I am not from the Palace Office as alleged but my IP will give my location in the US. Please read Dr Niumeitolu thesis as some of you have become an embarrassment to the family for the uneducated claimed you have done. If you want to write up a claim then please reference it. Also try to understand the Tongan concept before reading some of the missionaries writing: a. In the Tongan language their are no words for uncle, nephew, nieces. they are all the same as i. tamai means father or uncle. ii. tokoua mean brother or cousin. iii. foha mean son or nephew. Some missionaries will write son as they hear foha being used while in reality it mean nephew.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.203.34 (talk) 15:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Puakatau (talk) 14:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

PALACE OFFICE? Thanks, that is a laugh as all references I used are all books and papers out in the public domain which can be access to by anyone...lol.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.203.34 (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Puakatau (talk) 14:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Puakatau's ongoing shifting of identity of the old, Aleamotu'a from grandfather to son, etc. His personal attack on me " a shame to my family?". It's your problem, man not me !You may provided many references/ sources, but please refer to my previous comment, that you misquoted the quotation by the sources to suit your article. Also you keep on shifting your version on the identity of the old: Filakeba/ Fielakepa, we discuss. Fielakepa only came to existence in the early 1825/26 era. Fielakepa means Wanting to be a Lakeba. The noble tittle fielakepa was bestowed by King Aleamotu'a on himself, after his heir (first son), Ma'afuotu'itonga ( Ma'afu/ Enele Ma'afu) permanently relocated to Lakeba, Lau Groups in Fiji. Aleamotu'a was the initial titleholder of Fielakepa. The old Fielakepa we discussed I stated to you is King Aleamotu'a. As you may noticed the title chief provided by those missionaries, when they refer to Tupou (Namoa), Taufa'ahau, or Aleamotu'a. This means that those three relatives may have been in co-operation in the ruling of Tonga in that period. I do agree with you when you said query why should Aleamotu'a adopt a noble title while he is the king. However my answer to that query is mentioned above: the origin of Fielakepa (Filakeba).When Ma'afu move to Lakeba, Lau Groups permanently. I could elaborate extensively, that the first, initial Fielakepa is King Aleamotu'a. So you may understand but space and getting away from the topic,I think is not suitable for this.

The issues here is not what or how many source or references you adopted. What is that for if the editor or your article Puakatau used those sources/ references wrongly to enhance a false article like your, Puakatau. Talk to you later, Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 22:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

References? Anacrossan lack of references for any of her theory but still shamelessly pursuing self-glorifying is worrisome to me. Since she is not willing to read the references from the article and even from an academia from her own family in the person of Dr Rev Niumeitolu prompt me to approach this in a new way. I believe this will help Anacrossan and some of her relatives.

The references used by Anacrossan to say that Aleamotua became Fielakepa is based on the excerpt that stated that an old chief Fielakepa of Havelu have accepted christianity. This is quoted in Mr Gross and very likely to be post 1827.The question then: 1. Aleamotu'a accepted Christianity in 1826 from two Tahitian LMS Missionaries. 2. Where in that references linked Aleamotu'a and Fielakepa or state anything that we can come to that conclusion as Anacrossan concluded. 3. Fielakepa is a chief from the Ha'a Havea clan. This clan is make up from the sons of the 3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu, Mataeletu'apiko and consist of the following chiefs: Ma'afu, Vaea, Lavaka, Fielakepa, Tu'ivakano, Fohe and Lasike. The title Fielakepa preceded Aleamotu'a by at least 50 years. 4. Ma'afu went to Fiji as directed by Taufa'ahau in order to control the Tongan in Lau. That will be after 1845 since Taufa'ahau became King after Aleamotu'a passed away in 1845. He was recalled by Taufa'ahau and that was when he ask the King that he will leave as a Fijian. That is all part of Fijian history and we can also make some proof from there. 5. Anacrossan, may be looked at the following references: a. the Catholic priest Fr Chevron (Sevelo) who make the statement he met Aleamotu'a in 1842 as the TU'i Kanokupolu. b. Garret who wrote Aleamotu'a (Tupou) and then Tupou (Aleamotu'a) in order to avoid any confusion which Tupou he is refering to. c. Tupou was married to MAry. Mary was the baptised name for Moala wife of Tupou, thus the name Mele (Mary) Moala or Melemoala. Who was Namoa married to? 6. The references used in the article are from people who wrote it because they were actually in there during that time. Your un references theory are the lies of uneducated people who try to claim glory and misuse wikipedia to further their sick glory seeking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.203.34 (talk) 10:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC) Puakatau (talk) 14:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The comment from Puakatau, seems to going further and furher away from the issue. The issue here as I already discussed on my previous comments that Puakatau, have misquoted the sources to support his false article. Earlier on his comments he stated that the old Fielakeba was the grandfather of Aleamotu'a. Then when asked to verify, he shifted his version to may be the old Fielakeba a uncle? etc, etc.Now he claims that the title Fielakepa was really existed much, much older, something 50 years before Aleamotu'a. According to Puakatau, that Fielakepa belongs to Ha'a Havea clan, the children of Mateletu'apiko, the 3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu. This is qetting away from the Aleamotu'a article ! However I have to address this. In reference, to the speech deliver by King Siaosi Tupou 1( Taufa'ahau),during his present of the Tonga Constitution to the Parliament of Tonga, in 1875. King Siaosi Tupou 1, stated his repect and acknowledged the original clans of Tonga : Ha'a Latuhifo, Ha'a Siulangapo, and Ha'atatafu. He then acknowledged the modern clans ; Ha'a Maafu, Ha'a Havea, etc. These modern clans were not existed during periods of 18th century. They are more recent clans. Also,there was none of the children of King Mataeletu'apiko ( 3rd King of Tu'iKanokupolu dynasty) by the name of Fielakepa. However, the oldest and first son of King Mataeletu'apiko was: Tupoulahi. Tuku'aho, Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a and Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou) are the direct heirs of the Tupoulahi, the crown Prince and oldest son of King Mataeletu'apiko. So here again Puakatau, provided wrong information. It's may be Puakatau is confused and does have limited knowlege of Aleamotu'a the original holder of the noble title : Fielakepa. I concluded here that Aleamotu'a was the original title holder of, Fielakepa. Apart from sources provided by missionaries and authors, I have in depth knowledge of the title Aleamotu'a and why he bestowed the title Fielakepa on himself(please refer to my previous comments). Also,I am a direct descendant of King Mumui and his only heirs : Tuku'aho ( crown Prince and 1st son), Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a(initial holder of noble title : Fielakepa) and youngest, Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou). As King Mumui have four heirs, only. My knowledge of this are very much indepth, because my ancestors : the heirs of King Mumui, father of Tuku'aho, Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a and Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou). My ancestors were active participants or owners of those events, even to what's related to the title of Fielakepa( Aleamotu'a the original holder of the title Fielakepa). Thank you. Not 13/17? , 34? children as provided by Puakatau. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.129.84 (talk) 05:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

References?
Your theory lack the references needed and opposed what was written by Tongan Academics, Methodist and Catholic missionaries who were actually met Aleamotu'a. Your bias to your story have no credence as you have not put up a reference to prove your point. About the Ha'a in Tonga, Taufa'ahau have to address those Ha'a as they are the following clans: Latuhifo are Nuku and Niukapu who formed the 'Ulutolu with Ngata, the 1st Tu'i Kanokupolu. The other Ha'a are also senior as they are Kau Hala'uta clan from the Tu'i Ha'atakalaua or Tu'i Tonga.

The Ha'a Ngata (1st Tu'i Kanokupolu), Ha'a Havea (3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu) and Ha'a Ma'afu (6th Tu'i Kanokupolu)are all junior as they were from the Tu'i Kanokupolu line. Fielakepa is from Longolongo'atumai the son of Mataeletu'apiko. These clans exist from 17th and 18th century when their respective fathers were Tu'i Kanokupolu.

The Fielakepa that turned christian as stated in your reference could not be determined as I said, the born name of that Fielakepa was not mention. So it could be the 1st Fielakepa but unlikely but it will be most likely to be Aleamotu'a's uncle and it also could be his cousin. What the reference did not said is that Aleamotu'a became Fielakepa or that the Tu'i Kanokupolu gave up the King to become a chief which really look stupid.The other thing is that Fielakepa's mother is the Tamaha Tu'imala and Aleamotu'a's mother is Kaufusi, daughter of Fielakepa. So it can not be of the same person as they have different parents and of different timeline. In all the Tongan history books I havent come across Namoa's name on it.Give me a reference with Namoa on it and I can check your claim. If not then please stop this embarrassing claim as it really make people look stupid.

Your claimed of indepth knowledge showed that your conclusion does not linked to any sources and you lacked the understanding of Tongan culture. Genealogy put Aleamotu'a as number 17th son of the 13th Tu'i Kanokupolu. The Fielakepa line was different until 1927 when the Queen bestowed on Aleamotu'a's grandson the title Fielakepa. That is why the family maintained the surname Aleamotu'a but not the Fielakepa as they are not direct descendant of Fielakepa but of Aleamotu'a. There are thousand of King Mumui descendant but only a few of you make the claimed in order to raised your status.

Please read Dr Niumeitolu's doctorate thesis and the other reference provided especially the catholic priest who wrote that he met Aleamotu'a in 1842 as the Tu'i Kanokupolu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.203.34 (talk) 08:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC) Puakatau (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Reminder to sign your posts with ~
Everyone please remember to sign your posts, which may be done automatically by typing ~, or by hitting the sign button at the bottom of the edit window. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Puakatau, is very confused ! Firstly in rference to his previous discussion mentioned above, he stated that the title Fielakepa was given to Aleamotu'a's grandson : Tongaliuaki, by Tupou 11 ( Queen Salote's father). Now he stated that the title Fielakepa was given to Siaosi Niumeitolu( son of Aleamotu'a) in 1927. Very confusing, statements he made!Puakatau does really have very limited knowledge of Aleamotu'a. Tongaliuaki is the young brother of Ma'afu. Siaosi Niumeitolu is the son of Tongaliuaki. Siaosi Niumeitolu who later as Fielakepa was named after the 1st. Siaosi Niumeitolu. The 1st. Siaosi Niumeitolu was the first heir/ son of Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou), whom he was born in 1826. That Siaosi Niumeitolu( Fielakepa), that Puakatau refers to was the third holder of the noble title, Fielakepa. In reference to his versions of the clans, King Siaosi Tupou 1, did stated in his addressing the Parliament of Tonga, when delivering the Constitution of Tonga, in 1875. He stated, in his speech, the old established clans and the newly established clans, which included the new clan, Ha'a Havea. However it seems to me that, with Puakatau's very limited knowledge, he disputed the most well informed and knowledge of King Siaosi Tupou 1 ( Taufa'ahau), the King and Monarch of Tonga.

It is clear that Puakatau, does not know at all the tradition and procedures of the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty, which Aleamotu'a was clearly believed on and adhered to. As an insider, the ruling and procedures of the Tu'i Kanokupolu, in reference to Tu'i Kanokupolu rulers. That the heirs of the King/ Ruler will accede the throne.However this tradition was not able to carry out in the third Tu'i Kanokupolu, King Mataeletu'apiko, because Mataeletu'apiko, did outlive his heirs, to a very old age of over 100. But his grandchildren did able to continue that tradition/ porcedure. King MataeleTu'apiko's grandchildren were; Tupoulahi sii( Tupoulahi junior), also known as Paulaho by Europeans in 1770's.When Tupoulahisii, died, then his brother, Maealiuaki acceded the throne. When Maealiuaki died then the youngest brother of this siblings, Mumui acceded the throne. Because King Mumui older siblings ( Tupoulahi sii and Maealiuaki) did not have heirs, but may be illegitimate children, the heirs to the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty, have to pass down through King Mumui's heirs: Tuku'aho( the oldest son), Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a and youngest Namoa( Siosaia Tupou). Howevere, Tuku'aho ( King Siaosi Tupou 1 grandfather) was assassinated befor he able to accede the throne, therefore his younger siblings, Tupoumalohi, then Aleamotu'a and then Namoa( King Siosaia Tupou) acceded the throne. Then the heir to the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty title, returns to the heirs of the first son of King Mumui. The heir of the first son of King Mumui, was King Siaosi Tupou 1 (Taufa'ahau). King Siaosi Tupou 1, father Tupouto'a was not able to accede to the throne because he died in 1812, before his turn to became the monarch. However his only heir and legitimate son King Siaosi Tupou 1 ( Taufa'ahau), of Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty, became the King and Monarch of Tonga. This is a complex procedure of the Tu'i Kanokupolu Dynasty, but it was well understood and common to insiders and direct descendants of the Dynasty. Which I am sure that Puakatau is not aware of it at all.Also, I would like to point out to Puakatau, that King Mataeletu'apiko, never have a son by that name he mentioned, Longlongoatumai??? or something like that. Aleamotu'a bestowed the title, Fielakepa on him, I stated to Puakatau. It is quite evident that Puakatau, whom I think I have a an idea who he is ! does have no knowledge of ,Aleamotu'a. He seems to obssess with question of references, which he misused them to serve his false article on Aleamotu'a. THank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.129.84 (talk) 23:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Matthew, I did not want to hit the signature wrongly and lose what I wrote. However I do it now to see whether I do it right for next time. With my limited know how of internet. 211.30.129.84 (talk) 23:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Reference?
I hope you can backup your article with references but let me discuss some of my references with you if you are in denial even to read it.

1. Fielakepa was bestowed on Niumeitolu's son Tonga liuaki by Queen Salote Tupou III in 1927. reference in the Cocker, Genealogy of Tonga.

2. Aleamotu'a 2nd son was Niumeitolu not Siaosi Niumeitolu. Siaosi Niumeitolu was Tonga Liuaki's son and grandson of Niumeitolu.

3. George Taufa'ahau address the clan by seniority, what I was saying that all the senior clans (Kauhala 'Uta) and the junior clans (Kauhala Lalo) were all in place by the 17th and 18th century.

4. Paulaho was a Tu'i Tonga and sometimes called Pau. He was the Tu'i Tonga who met Captain Cook and you can read that from Captain Cook's book of Capt Cook Three Voyages.

5. Go to the references and the Genealogy site will give you where the Ha'a Havea started and Longolongo'atumai is in there.

6. The succession of the Tu'i Kanokupolu was not complex but as young chiefs you must have a strong support of the clans especially the Ha'a Havea and Ha'a Ngata who will installed the Tu'i Kanokupolu. Please read the genealogy site and you will not have to ramble in here without references.

7. To help you out, the Palace Office site designate Aleamotu'a as 18th Tu'i Kanokupolu and Taufa'ahau as 19th Tu'i Kanokupolu. No mention of Namoa.

8. The Catholic priest Fr Chevron or Sevelo in Tongan wrote that he met the Tu'i Kanokupolu, Alea Matua in 1842 and this was the arrival of the Catholic Church in Tonga.

9. I mention before that Garret wrote in his book Aleamotua (Tupou) and Tupou (Aleamotu'a) to designate which Tupou he was writing about. May be you should spent ttimes to read the references I provided as these confirmed each other and from people who were actually there.

10. In 1996 or 97, Taufa'ahau Tupou IV held a memorial services in Mala'e 'Aloa to commemorate 200 years of Christianity in Tonga. He acknowledge Aleamotu'a or Josaih Tupou Aleamotu'a who accept Christianity and the first baptised Tu'i Kanokupolu. He also acknowledged that Queen Mata'aho and Fielakepa are the grand children of Aleamotu'a. The services was held in Mala'e 'Aloa as Aleamotu'a is buried in the old part, Faletuipapai. 200 years counting from the original LMS missionaries.

Now to look at what you have alleged, it is hinged on the reference that Fielakepa and old chief from Havelu accept Christianity. You have deduce that since the Fielakepa of todays are from the Aleamotu'a family, you concluded that Aleamotu'a gave up the King to become a chief. There is nothing to suggested your conclusion and you have failed to research this by asking any of the Aleamotu'a family.

Now I believe that if your history is based on this, I hope you can expand your researched and to confirmed it with others to avoid this embarrassing claim. As a respect for your family, I ask that you respect this research and leave Aleamotu'a article as it is since I have more references and its the accepted history of Tonga, the Royal Family, missionaries and the Churches and academia whose research are indepth.

There was no offense intended with all my previous teasing comments as I know we will still be relatives in the end. On a last note, I believe your Kolomotu'a article need a lot of work and references and I may have to rewrite it.

Puakatau (talk) 17:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

In reference to recent comment by Puakatau,regarding the Fielakepa title, it's not correct. It's should be Tongaliuaki, young brother of Ma'afu the second Fielakepa, then Niumeitolu the third Fielakepa.

The reference he made on his number 3, comment, regarding the comment by King Siaosi Tupou 1. Puakatau, please refer to the original document of Tonga Parliament/ Government of Tonga Gazette, in 1875. There was no mentioned of anything related to what you mentioned. Also,please refer to my previous comment regarding, King Siaosi Tupou 1, original speech. He acknowledged the old established clan and then acknowledged the recent established clans which includes, the Ha'a Havea ,you talking about. Never in his speech that he mentioned the : Kau Halauta,etc., as you argued about.

In reference to Anacrossan (talk) 02:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)your argument that I concluded that: Aleamotu'a gave up his title as King to become Fielakepa? You wrong again, you have to refer to my previous comment mentioned above,and my article, on Aleamotu'a, regarding, bestowed on him the title Fielakepa, yet he is still King. Please get your facts right. In addition ,It seems that lots of references you provided/ sources, originated from googqling. Even the, Rev. Dr.Taliai Niumeitolu's research, it's seems it's Anacrossan (talk) 02:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)from googling.That where you get his information from, it seems.

In reference to, Aleamotu'a bestowed the title Fielakepa on him,that is the fact.I can elaborate on it extensively,later. Thank you.Anacrossan (talk) 23:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

You have to prove your point
Anacrossan, you have to prove your point with some references to others as normally accepted by researchers.

1. You have make some allegation and you have not put up any references about Namoa from the Missionaries, academia or even the Royal Family.

2. Namoa is not even listed in the Tu'i Kanokupolu list. If he is he will be 18.5th Tu'i Kanokupolu since Aleamotu'a is 18th and Taufa'ahau is 19th.

3. Namoa's mother is not even Fatafehi Tu'i Tonga Fefine as you claimed but in the Tonga Genealogy its someone else.

4. You are quiet right that all references are all accessable thru the internet by googling the reference, and you read it thru the net or order and pay for the book. That does not mean that the references are wrong as this is what we want to improve Wikipedia by referenced it to official papers and documents.

Even though I dont have to answer your questions as you dont seemed to read the references, I like to help you by relating the following infomation:

1. Kau Hala'uta and Kau Halalalo are the two division in the Tongan Society and all the clans or Ha'a fit under those two division. The Tu'i Tonga clans and the Tu'i Ha'atakalaua, Tu'i Kanokupolu clans and Ha'a. You have to understand the make up of the Tongan Society before discussing speeches. The Tongan society is that the Kau Hala'uta clans will be senior to all Kau Halalalo clans but they will in places before Aleamotu'a was borned or even become King.

Ha'a Ngata is the sons of the 1st Tu'i Kanokupolu Ngata, Ha'a Havea is from sons of the the 3rd Tu'i Kanokupolu mataeletu'apiko and Ha'a Ma'afu from the sons of the 6th Tui Kanokupolu Ma'afu 'o Tu'itonga.

2. The Fielakepa title have a longlist from the beginning and you can find it from the Palace Record if you ask them. The following list of the Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family can be found in any of the genealogy website. The 1st Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family was Tonga Liuaki, a grandson of Aleamotu'a and son of Niumeitolu the second son of Aleamotu'a. Niumeitolu (father) was not a Fielakepa. The second Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family was Siaosi Niumeitolu.He had no son or daughter. The third Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family was Josiah Tupou Aleamotu'a the younger brother of Siaosi Niumeitolu. The fourth Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family was 'Atunaisa Paula Longolongo'atumai. The fifth Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family is currently Sosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a, Baron Fielakepa of Havelu.

3. Now if you claimed that Aleamotu'a was the 1st Fielakepa and he died in 1830 as you claimed, then the second Fielakepa as Tonga Liuaki who was installed in 1927. From 1830 to 1927 is 97 years and that is what you claimed thayt it was 97th years between the death of the the first Fielakepa and the installment of the second Fielakepa? How can they be father and son? IT WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU TO JUST GO TO THE REFERENCES AND FOLLOW THE GENEALOGY OF TONGA AND STOP MAKING THE WRONG DEDUCTION AND FALSE CLAIMED.

NOW, YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWER ANY OF MY QUESTIONS ABOUT: 1. Give me any references by the Missionaries or any academia about Namoa as Tupou or even Josiah Tupou as I have given you my references about Aleamotu'a being Tupou and Josiah Tupou?

2. Who did Namoa married? Did she married Moala who was baptised as Mary the daughter of Soakai from Felemea? Are you related to the Felemea people?

3. Why dont you tell the Aleamotu'a and Tuita family not to use Josiah Tupou as that is your family name according to you? The last Baron Tuita was also borned as Josiah Tupou Aleamotu'a before he was installed as Tuita.

It is sad that you have made the following claimed and you are lucky the Aleamotu'a family does not take up a lawsuit against you guys for defamation of Family History as you have to stand in court and prove your ancestors with facts but not the theory you have invented. I believe the Aleamotu'a family understand their own cousins and have better things to do with life as they can always prove their ancestors while you can not actually prove who you are.

Or may be you can take the Aleamotu'a and Tuita family to court for using your names and defaming your SO CALLED family history...Puakatau (talk) 14:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Puakatau. 1) The Palace record you keep on repeating is very unreliable and inaccurate source. As relected on your article, which you stated that, Aleamotu'a was the number 17th of Kaufusi and King Mumui.In my earlier comment, I pointed out to you the false and inaccuracies of your comment. That the genealogy you provided mentioned that, Tangata'olakepa was a son of King Mumui. I pointed out that Tangata'olakepa was son of Namoa (Siosaia Tupou). Also, in my earlier comment regarding that, I pointed out that the genealogy you provided regarding the children are not correct because the father, sons, grandchildren of Aleamotu'a and Namoa (Siosaia Tupou), and Tuku'aho are recorded or lump together as siblings (provided by your false genealogy from Palace Office, Nuku'alofa).

2) In reference to Lord Tuita, you repeatedly mentioned. My answer to that, Lord Tuita (Siosaia Aleamotu'a Tuita) not Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a Tuita, as you mentioned is a descendant of Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou). Namoa (Siosaia Tupou) 1st daughter, prior to marriage was: 'Alilia Funakitoutai Tupou. Her children were: Iki Tupou Fulivai ( holder of Noble Title, Noble Fulivai, to date), Tevita Tapueluelu ( his descendants are: Baroness Tuputupu,Princess Nanasipau'u the wife of current Crown Prince Tupouto'a of Tonga, Noble Tuita ( Siosaia Aleamotu'a), including the current Lord Tuita, the husband of the Princess Royal Pilolevu, Noble Ma'afu of Vaini, and other noble title holders to date. Namoa( Siosaia Tupou) only legitimate daughter was: Vika Mafile'o Tupou. Vika Mafile'o Tupou married to Noble Vaha'i of Fo'ui. Her descendants are:Lord Vaha'i, Lord Fakafanua of Ma'ufanga, Lord Tu'iHa'ateiho,and many other nobleholders of Tonga.

3) The contributors to Niumeitolu Genealogy were, immediate relatives who were active participants or owners of those events; This included King Siaosi Tupou 1, himself. Also to mentioned few of other contributors: 'Ana Niumeitolu ( granddaughter of King Siosaia Tupou (Namoa) who was born in about,1848 and died in 1952, Peni Tupou( grandson of Siosaia Tupou (Namoa), who was born in 1851 and died in 1926. Those contributors confirmed and recorded them that, Namoa ,a.k.a. Tupou was the initial title holder of the title : Siosaia Tupou. Those contributors to the History record of Niumeitolu Family were either active participants(i.e., King Siaosi Tupou 1), or the owners of those events. They confirmed and documented that Namoa (Siosaia Tupou) was the original holder of Siosaia Tupou. Also the owner of the title : Niumeitolu. The Palace Office does not have any of those family documentation. As most of the Palace Office, history records were only collected in early 1950's. They were collected from many unreliable sources who had very limited knowledge or distorted knowledge.

4) Namoa ( King Siosaia Tupou) was the only son,of HRH Fatafehi'o Lapaha the last Tu'iTonga Monarch and King Mumui. This means if, King Mumui of Tu'iKanokupolu Dynasty married HRH Fatafehi o Lapaha, the last female Monarch of the Tu'iTonga Dynasty in 1754 and have their only son in 1755, Namoa( Tupou who later Siosaia Tupou), then the question is, where does Kaufusi and her 17 children as you claimed, fit in ??

5) The residence of Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou) was Talakaipau. Talakaipau, before early 1826, did cover also, the current Royal Palace of Tonga, Nuku'alofa. I won't elaborate here and the meaning of the name: Talakaipau, unless it's relevant to the subject of this article: Aleamotu'a.

Talk to you later. It's good so you may learn the facts, Puakatau.114.77.204.53 (talk) 22:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

"""REFERENCES?""""
Now you are starting to ramble. That is what researchers called when you dont put up the references for us to see and asses and confirmed. If you have these references then put it up as we need to confirm and deconflict these facts but right now, there are more reference from Catholic, LMS and Methodist Missionaries, Royal Family and the academia that confirmed the Aleamotu'a Family. But these are other facts that you may not know.

The current Tuita family started from Tevita 'Unga of Kolomotu'a who married Ate of the Kaho family and the Tuita title comes from Ate and the Kaho family. Tevita 'Unga is the son of Melesungu the grand daughter of LaufiliTonga the last Tu'i Tonga. Tevita 'Unga also had a half sister called Veatokelau who is also the daughter of Melesungu. Tuita is a Fokololo e hau name or Toutai name. Their 'eiki side is from Tevita 'Unga who was the son of Melesungu the grand daughter of Laufilitonga.

Veatokelau married Tonga Liuaki the first Fielakepa from the Aleamotu'a family. Veatokelau also have Siaosi Niumeitolu, 2nd Fielakepa and Governor of Ha'apai, Josiah Tupou Aleamotu'a 3rd Fielakepa and Governor of Ha'apai.That is how Tuita is related to Fielakepa. It was later that Tuita have daughters that married to Vaha'i and Ve'ehala chiefs.

The 3rd Fielakepa Josiah Tupou Aleamotu'a married Salote Maeakafa. She is the grand daughter of HRH WIlliam Ngu who were a Crown Prince and the grandson of George Taufa'ahau Tupou I. These marriages were arranged as it were by the Royal Family as they know who are the real grandchildren and direct descendant of Josiah Tupou Aleamotu'a, the 18th Tu'i Kanokupolu. I believe if the Royal Family thinks that you are worth something may be they will arranged one of their close relativies to marry your grannies or even give your granny a title like mine...Puakatau.. if not I will give you my title. Just joking.

These are all in the Article references from Genealogy pages mention before and they also agree with the Royal family.

The Palace Office have the earliest Tohi Hohoko from the last Tamaha and is the main reference for the Genealogy of Tonga by Cocker mentioned by the Article references. Check that out as it was recorded on papers before 1845. Sorry to say I did not use any of the Palace Office and I am not from them either but the references mentioned is all available by internet and you can buy the book or read the website.

Have you read Dr Rev Niumeitolu doctorate thesis? I believe you should believe that as it was from your own family who actually did some interview and researches. He is the smart one!! Come on show us the family references and I wonder why Dr Niumeitolu does not use it. Mahalo kuo mate hono ma or they say Die hono Bread.

If you say that the Royal Palace record is not true you are saying that the Kings who was on the throne and have the power to throw your grannies in the 'Umu was wrong since they have the earliest record and all activities were from them which was including George Tupou I.

YOU HAVE NOT PUT ANY REFERENCE FOR NAMOA WHO WAS TUPOU OR WAS HE EVEN BAPTISED?

Koe me'a pe foki 'e huke hake ai moutolu koe tangi ke tatau. --Puakatau (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Before I respond, to Puakatau. Firstly,I would like to pointed out that in the conclusion of the last paragraph of talk by Puakatau, he posted a threat to me and my family, in the Tongan language. I do not think that this approach done by this person, is the appropriate behaviour in here. One should not bully or give threats as tactics in such discussion, in this wikipedia process. It sounds to me as very irresponsible and sneaky to do it in the Tongan lanquage, thinking that his threat will go unnoticed if it's not in the English language.

However, back to the discussion of Aleamotu'a. In reference to recent talk and previous talk provided by Puakatau,it seems to me he is confused and total loss the plot. Whenever challenged his sources and aricle on Aleamotu'a and he was not able to provide logical explanation, he shifted the subject. He has no indepth knowledge of the subject.

I would like to elaborate a bit on Aleamotu'a and his relation to the noble title : Fielakepa.

Aleamotu'a, King of Tonga from the Tu'i Kanokupolu Dynasty, was very much a tradition man and a reinforcer of the procedures and tradition of the Tu'i Kanokupolu Dynasty.

It was the tradition and procedures of the Tu'i Kanokupolu Dynasty to keep a long lasting record or documentation of important events or incidences that affect the operation or ruling of the Dynasty.

About the year 1825, King Aleamotu'a instructed his 1st son, Maafu'oTu'itonga (a.k.a. Maafu/ Enele Maafu to Fiji) to leave Tonga permanently. This a pre- preparation for the arrival of Taufa'ahau with his great-uncle, Namoa ( Tupou/ Tubou), in Tongatapu in January, 1826.Namoa( Tupou) was the youngest brother of King Aleamotu'a. Taufa'ahau was the only heir and grandson of Tuku'aho ( oldest brother of King Mumui and Namoa ( Tupou).

It was a tradition of the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty that, all male heirs ( from oldest to youngest) to have each of their turn to accede the throne of the Dynasty. When this process completed then the male heir/s of the oldest sibling will then accede the throne. For example, King Mumui, Tu'i Kanokupolu had four sons or heirs only. They were: Tuku'aho( oldest), Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a and Namoa( Tupou). When Tuku'ahothe first heir, was assassinated, his only heir and son, Tupouto'a did not accede the throne. But instead his uncle (young brother of Tuku'aho), Tupoumalohi accede as the Tu'i Kanokupolu monarch, after the death of King Mumui. Thern after, Tupoumalohi, then Aleamotu'a became the next Monarch of Tu'i Kanokupolu and Tonga.

However, Aleamotu'a during his reign, instructed his oldest son, Maafu to leave Tonga permanently. King Aleamotu'a then, documented this very important event, the leaving of his first heir, Maafu, to Lakeba permanently. King Aleamotu'a bestowed on himself the new noble title of : Fielakepa. This noble title became the hereditary noble title for the heirs or descendants of King Aleamotu'a.This style of documentation was a common procedure of documentation by the Tu'i Kanokupolu Dynasty. This style of documentation reflects the event, and the exact location(s) of where that event/s does occur. However if a immediate member of the Royal Family of the Dynasty was the main participant or owner of that event, then it will be documented on that main participant or owner of that event.

As King Aleamotu'a was a very traditional and a enforcer of tradition and procedures of the TuiKanokupolu Dynasty, he bestowed the first Noble title: Fielakepa, on himself.Not affecting his status as King at all. The title Fielakepa marked the era that the event ( during the reign of Aleamotu'a)was occured and what was the event(Maafu left to Lakeba permanently).

When Aleamotu'a passed away then Namoa ( Tupou) in 1830 acceded the throne as King of Tonga, and adopted the titlle Siosaia Tupou/ Josiah Tubou to missionaries. King Siosaia Tupou died in 1845, and his nephew, Taufa'ahau became as King Siaosi Tupou 1.

All of those events I mentioned above have been documented in the usual style and procedures of the Tu'iKanokupolu Dynasty documentation.

To conclude here, I reinforce my statement on the outset, that Aleamotu'a was the initial title holder of, Fielakepa. Aleamotu'a was the old Fielakepa ( Fielakeba) mentioned by that missionary in 1826.

Thank you and talk to you later.114.77.204.53 (talk) 01:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

"""References?"""
I believe this debate wont go any further and it will be a waste for the editors time as it does not add any valuable information.

Threat in Tongan? You must be joking. The Tongan saying '"Oua 'e tangi ke tatau na'a 'ita 'a Taufa'ahau"'' meaning, dont dont act as you are equal with someone who you are not equal with in social status or the chiefs will be angry.

The saying I put up is that your family will only be exam and checked under the spotlight since you claimed something that does not belong to you.

You have not provided the REFERENCE to support your theory or independently support your claim about Aleamotu'a or even confirmed who is Namoa

The theory developed by the last contributors are not supported by any independent references. Ma'afy left to Fiji on the directive of George Taufa'ahau post 1845 and this can be references by the History of Fiji and other sources. MA'afu was recalled by Taufa'ahau but he ask Taufa'ahau that he will go to Fiji as a Fijian Chief. This can be referenced but if a different timeline and should be a different article.Puakatau (talk) 13:24, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

In reference to Puakatau current talk.Now he interpreted his threat in a more modifying phrase that makes his threat looks mild! His threat when translated in English will be : " The fact you are deningrated because you want to be equal". It is a threat and an outrageous act which should not be allowed here.

Throughout this discussion,it is clear to me that Puakatau does not have the knowledge of the article Aleamotu'a. His article is not genuine.The sources he provided are misquoted deliberately or  either misquoted. This is to suit his article on Aleamotu'a.He distorted by inserting his personal views in to the article and makes out it's from the original source(s).

Puakatau have not explained of why Aleamotu'a being the number 17th of the children, and why he become the King and not the older siblings of his? His versions on Aleamotu'a are not genuine or valid. He misquoted his sources to suit his bias and invalid and distorted article on Aleamotu'a.When questioned him on his misquoted, that King Siosaia took ill during his visit to his nephew?? at Eua. Also when I provide him with initial quote, Puakatau unable to respond to that, yet he changed the subject.

When I responded to him in regards to his quotation about Aleamotu'a in relation to the clans of Tonga. As he argued that Aleamotu'a belongs to an old clan the Ha'aHavea. When I informed him and provided with information reqarding a speech in 18755 by King Siaosi Tupou, in his delivering of Tonga Constitution, that confirms that his information are false. He responded by diverting to a different subject.

It seems to me that his writing on Aleamotu'a is full of inaccuracies, personal bias, etc. However that's my view but the decision on that is not my business.

I hope that the assessor /panel of Wikipedia will take into consideration of article I wrote on Aleamotu'a. Also may I bring to your attention,also that, under the official website of Government of Tonga, under the Tonga Constitution Timeline before 1875, it published there, the original wikipedia article on, Aleamotu'a.

Thank you for your consideration and hope to hear from you soon. Talk to you later.Anacrossan (talk) 22:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Your answer in the Namoa page
Also remember the Tongan saying:

Tama tu'u he fa'e. Your rank is based who your mother is if you guys have the same father.

Uho Taha versus Tau Taha

Go and read all my reference and you can see that they veriified that ALEAMOTU"A was Tupou and was baptised as Josiah Tupou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puakatau (talk • contribs) 04:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Puakatau has not answer and clarify why Aleamotu'a the number 17th of the siblings/ children became King, but not his older brothers or sixteen siblings who were older than him??

If Puakatau cannot answer and clarify this, then his article on Aleamotu'a, have no validity in it.

Anacrossan (talk) 11:54, 21 July 2010 (UTC)I think it should be deleted, because anyone with common sense can see that it's impossible even in Western societies, for a number 17th of the children/ siblings acceded the throne as King. And not the older 16 children/ siblings who are older than Aleamotu'a and with same or more legitimate rights to the throne than Aleamotu'a ??

Aleamotu'a the 17th of the children of King Mumui?? I am quite amazed at the lies that has been put in this article of Puakatau. What happened to the other sixteen older children, why they were not become as King?? instead, only the youngest the number 17th become the King of Tonga?

This article written by Puakatau, is more as a joke to one's common sense and intelligence.17 children and only Aleamotu'a the number 17th of the 17 children became King?? What happen to the other 16 older siblings?? Or are they non-exist, those 16 siblings of Aleamotu'a ? Anacrossan (talk) 13:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Just adding a bit to what I have always maintained and said from the outset, that King Mumui Tu'iKanokupolu only have four sons only( Tuku'aho the oldest, then Tupoumalohi, then Aleamotu'a and the youngest Namoa (Siosaia Tupou).

Because Tupoumalohi did not have any heirs, but only the other three siblings ( Tuku'aho, Aleamotu'a and Namoa(Siosaia Tupou)) has the descendants.Tuku'aho only grandson, King Siaosi Tupou 1( Taufa'ahau) whose residence the Royal Palace at Nuku'alofa Tongatapu is located next door to Namoa (Siosaia Tupou) residence, TALAKAIPAU, then not far from the Royal Palace and Talakaipau is Aleamotu'a's residence, Mata'uTuliki/ Fotu'aikata'ane,Anacrossan (talk) 14:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC) recently. The descendants of these three siblings( Tuku'aho, Aleamotu'a and Namoa/Siosaia Tupou) has been living near to each other in their father's estate,Kolomotu'a, since Kolomotu'a existed. Kolomotu'a was the residence of King Mumui and his family.

The question is where are the other 30 of the 34 children claimed by Puakatau??

INDEPENDENT REFERENCES
IF ANACROSSAN UNDERSTAND POLYGAMY SHE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THE NUMBERING SYSTEM OF THE TU'I KANOKUPOLU'S CHILDREN.

If you are proud of Kolomotu'a the you are a new comer to the area. This area is traditionaly NUKU'ALOFA as mention by the earliest recorded history.

Other grandchildren of Mumui are the Niupalau, Tauali'i, who stayed beside the Aleamotu'a family, Vakasiuola another well known family Tangata 'o Lakepa have their own grandchildren and you can still find that name in Kolomotu'a. Mumui's grandchildren are spread throughout Tonga as you can find Niupalau in Kolomotu'a, Ha'apai and Houma. The Niumeitolu family but we follow the Dr Rev Niumeitolu Genealogy as that is what have been always true and what we can verify independently from Missionaries who conduct the baptism and who visit and met Aleamotu'a as Josiah Tupou.

ANACROSSAN HAS NOT PROVIDE ANY PROOF OF HER NEW VERSION OF TONGAN HISTORY OR ANY INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION OF NAMOA BEING MENTION IN HISTORYPuakatau (talk) 19:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Bold text

This writing by Puakatau on, Aleamotu'a is a great concern to me. The claim that Aleamotu'a was the 17th child who become the King of Tonga, and not the 16 siblings who are older than him. This specific information strongly indicated that the information and the rest of the information on this article are totally false. Though there are lots of references provided, it still unable to explain why Aleamotu'a the number 17th and youngest of the 17 children suddenly become the King and not the older 16 children/ siblings of his. Next is the claim that Tupouto'a was Tu'iKanokupolu, was another false claim. Tupouto'a was not able to become King because, Tupoumalohi ( Tupouto'a, uncle) was still the King. Also, Tupouto'a did die in 1812, and unable to become King, but his only son and heir, Taufa'ahau( King Siaosi Tupou 1) did become King.

Also I think  that I already have discuss this before regarding the Tu'iKanokupolu dynasty procedures in regards to acceding to the throne. Where the legitimate children / heirs of the monarch will have their turn in acceding to throne as Monarch. When this completed then the acceded as Monarch return to the first heir or son of first son or male heir. For example, King Mumui have only four children ( Tuku'aho, Tupoumalohi, Aleamotu'a and Namoa (Siosaia Tupou)). All of King Mumui's sons as according to Tu'iKanokupolu procedures must have their individual turns as King (Tuku'aho was assassinated before his turn to accede as Monarch). Once this completed then acceded to the throne will then return to the first son or male heir of Tuku'aho (oldest son of King Mumui). This procedure was removed in 1875, by King Siaosi Tupou 1. He replaced it with a new procedure. That the rights to the throne is to: from the first son or male heir of the monarch to his children and from the first heir to his children ( from children to children). It's still complicated but it's more on line with procedures of western style of monarch and rights to the throne.

Anacrossan (talk) 03:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of misleading information that requires to clarify and correct. For example, Siale'ataongo only child and daughter was a legitimate one. Siale'ataongo's daughter was not able to acquire the title, Fielakepa because she was a female. As in that period, female were not allowed to be as heir to hereditary titles or lands, in that period.

The residence of Aleamotu'a in Kolomotu'a is Mata'utuliki( righthand corner), not Mata'otuliki. There so many misleading and wrong information written by Puakatau in this article, that I think it's does injustice to the status and dignity of Aleamotu'a, i.e, number 17th of the seventeen children of Kaufusi,etc. A remarkable mis-representation ! of a very dignify and proud humanbeing.Anacrossan (talk) 07:54, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

QUESTION OF INTERGRITY
'''ANACROSSAN, WHY DID YOU EDIT THE REFERENCES AND THINK IT WILL NOT BE NOTICES. THE REFERENCES IN BLOCKQUOTE IS WHAT PEOPLE WROTE AND THAT IS WHY WE PUT AN ENDNOTE SO YOU KNOW WHAT BOOK TO READ AND A PAGE NUMBER OF THE BOOK.'''

SIALE'ATAONGO NEVER MARRIED AND THAT IS WHY WE WROTE IT AS FACTS. WHILE FEMALE CAN NOT INHERIT TITLES AND LAND, THE SONS OF SUCH A FEMALE CAN INHERIT THE TITLE AND LAND AS I HAVE EXPLAIN WITH THE TITLE:

VAEA: TUPOU FAMILY, FIELAKEPA: ALEAMOTU'A FAMILY, TU'IVAKANO: KAHO FAMILY,TUITA: TEVITA'UNGA FAMILY, VE'EHALA: VI FAMILY ETC.ETC.

ANACROSSAN, YOU ARE THE SHAMELESS PERSON WHO CHANGE HISTORY AND CLAIMED THAT ALEAMOTU'A, THE KING WHO ACCEPT CHRISTIANITY WAS NOT BAPTISED WHILE THE KING AND ROYAL FAMILY, THE METHODIST CHURCH WENT TO MALA'E'ALOA IN 1996 AND HOLD A COMMEMORATION SERVICES FOR THE 200 YEARS OF CHRISTIANITY. COUNTING FROM THE FIRST MISSIONARY IN TONGA, THE LMS IN 1796. IT WAS HELD IN MALA'E 'ALOA IN MEMORY OF ALEAMOTU'A, THE TU'I KANOKUPOLU WHO ACCEPT CHRISTIANITY AND BAPTISED AS JOSIAH TUPOU WHO FOSTER THE GROWTH OF CHRISTIANITY IN TONGA.

THE LATE TAUFA'AHAU TUPOU IV ACKNOWLEDGED HM THE QUEEN MATA'AHO AND FIELAKEPA AS THE DIRECT GRANDCHILDREN OF ALEAMOTU'A WHO WAS BAPTISED AS JOSIAH TUPOU.

ANACROSSAN, WE UNDERSTAND YOU WERE STILL IN SCHOOL AT THIS TIMES STUDYING HARD, HOWEVER, YOUR CONFUSION IS VERY UNDERSTANDABLE. BE SMART, RESEARCH AND READ WIDELY, ASKED THE ALEAMOTU'A FAMILY FOR THEIR VERSION OF HISTORY AS THAT WILL BE CONFIRMED BY OTHER FAMILY IN KOLOMOTU'A. THAT WILL BE ALSO CONFIRMED BY THE ROYAL FAMILY AND WRITING BY MISSIONARIES WHO ACTUALLY AT THE BAPTISM (MR THOMAS) OR PATELE SEVELO (FR CHEVRON, SM) WHO MET ALEAMOTU'A AS TU'I KANOKUPOLU IN 1842. Puakatau (talk) 13:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Anothe thing about the Tongan society and a Polygamy society, there is not really a legitimate heirs as the stronger you are and 'eiki your mother are, the more influence you have in the community.The numbering system of the children was recently invented to account for the children by their mothers, not to designate the right for the throne.

Tupouto'a is listed as number 17th Tu'i Kanokupolu as official document by the Palace Office and Official History of Tonga, however it is acknowledged that he was not installed at Hihifo as Tu'i Kanokupolu by the Ha'a Ngata and Ha'a Havea, the two principal clan or Ha'a of the Tu'i Kanokupolu. Although he was the son of the assassinated King, Tuku'aho the 14th Tu'i Kanokupolu, he was a high chief of Ha'apai which was under the control of 'Ulukalala, the principal architect of the assassination. That is why the Clan of the Ha'a Tu'i Kanokupolu did not installed him as he was seen under the control of 'Ulukalala.

ANOTHER QUESTION ANACROSSAN NEED TO ANSWER SINCE THE MISSIONARY RECORDED THE INSTALLMENT OF ALEAMOTU'A AT HIHIFO AS THE TU'I KANOKUPOLU AND THEY ALSO RECORDED TAUFA'AHAU'S INSTALLMENT AS TU'I KANOKUPOLU, '''HOW COME THEY DID NOT RECORDED ANY INSTALLMENT FOR NAMOA? ''' BECAUSE THERE WAS NO SUCH INSTALLMENT, THERE WAS NO FUNERAL FOR THE TU'I KANOKUPOLU IN 1830 AS ALEAMOTU'A DID NOT DIED IN 1830 BUT IN 1845 AS WRITTEN BY EVERYONE EXCEPT ANACROSSAN....LOL.. Puakatau (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

PUAKATAU WRITINGS ON ALEAMOTU'A ARE FULL OF RUBBISH ! AND MISLEADING ALLEGATIONS. A self serving interest piece of writing.

DOES NOT GIVES KING ALEAMOTU'A THE DIGNITY AND GENUINE PERPECTIVES HE DESERVES !

King Aleamotu'a died in 1830, very aged at the age of about 93 years old.

Anacrossan (talk) 00:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

VADALISM OF REFERENCES AND PROOF
I BELIEVE THAT WHAT ANASS-CROSSAN DID WAS VANDALISM!! CHANGING THE REFERENCES IN BLOCKQUOTE WAS LIKE CHEATING. SHE CHANGED WHAT PEOPLE WROTE AS THEY RECORD WHAT THEY DID AT THAT TIME OF YEARS AGO.

ANACROSSAN HAS NOT PROVIDED ANY PROOF OR VERIFIED HER ARTICLE WITH AN END NOTE OR SOURCES THAT STATED HER CASE.

PROPOSAL: I PROPOSED THAT ANASSCROSSAN HAS CROSS THE LINE AND SHE SHE SHOULD BE BLOCK OFF THIS ARTICLE OR THE NAMOA ARTICLE. THAT WILL GIVE US SERIOUS WRITER THE TIME TO MAKE IMPROVEMENT ON THE THE ARTICLE AND STOP WASTING TIME TEACHING SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT WANT TO LEARN.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF TO VERIFIED YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE? THAT IS WHY IT MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID AS YOU MAKE STATEMENT WITH NOTHING TO BACK UP THE STATEMENT....LOL..Puakatau (talk) 13:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Aleamotu'a was the third son of King Mumui Tu'iKanokupolu's only four children.

Here we see the traditional procedures of Tu'iKanokupolu being processed. Where the whole four of King Mumui's only four children had their turn and rights to become King. Tuku'aho, the oldest was not able to accede as King because he was assassinated before his turn. The second son of King Mumui was Tupoumalohi accedded as King and died in 1820. Then Aleamotu'a the third son, Aleamotu'a acceded as King Aleamotu'a from 1820-30. Then the last of King Mumui's only four children, Namoa,a.k.a. Tupou acceded as King of Tonga from 1830-45.

As I have already mentioned in my prior discussions, that this Tu'iKanokupolu dynasty procedures was changed by King Siaosi Tupou 1 ( only grandson and heir of Tuku'aho) in 1875.Instead of going from brother to brother until all siblings acceded to the throne, it was now from the first son and his children to first son and his children, and so on.

Also the claim by Puakatau that the cause of Aleamotu'a's deathe was a result from his going to 'Eua for the opening of a chapel build by his grandson, is false and does not make sense. Here a very aged King of about 107 years old ( if we go according to Puakatau version, went to Eua in a canoe, on very rough and stormy sea and dangerous harbour of Eua !  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 00:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The claim by Puakatau that number 17th become King and not the other older 16 of his siblings is too misleading and quite false.

It does not give Aleamotu'a the dignity and truthfulness he deserves.

Anacrossan (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

PROVE YOUR STATEMENT
Annascrossan sound like a broken record who only send out denial and never provided independent proof that Namoa was even mention in history With the hundreds of books about Tonga, Namoa was never mention by name. Her genealogy is only known to her and believed by her but she refused to provide the sources for clarification.

Her confusion is based on the statement of "Fielakepa an old chief of Havelu and relative of Tupou accepted Christianity".

Now she assumed that Fielakepa is Aleamotu'a while she does not understand that Tupou mention in the article is the Tu'i Kanokupolu Tupou 'i Faletuipapai aka Aleamotu'a whose mother is the daughter of the first Fielakepa.

Namoa was not related to Fielakepa so Namoa can not be that Tupou. Namoa was not married to Mary Moala as Mr Thomas wrote so Namoa can not be that Tupou claimed by Annass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puakatau (talk • contribs) 11:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

King Aleamotu'a was the third son of King Mumui, not the number 17th son. Puakatau wrtings on Aleamotu'a is full of misleading information. A self serving interest, by Puakatau ! Does not do any good to Aleamotu'a who deserves the truth and better !

Anacrossan (talk) 21:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

PROVE YOUR STATEMENT
Everything I wrote is based on everything that was written by the Missionaries who were part of this History and the Royal Family History from the Royal Family Official website.

YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY PROOF TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENT BY ANY ONE BUT ONLY FROM YOU.

Your Niumeitolu Genealogy was not provided and it is likely not the Official one since the older son of the Niumeitolu clan even dispute your version of Genealogy with his doctorate thesis.

Baptism name were more of a first name from the bible or just from the english missionaries as in Josiah, Abraham, George, Henry etc.etc. Tupou were more like a Ha'a Tu'i Kanokupolu Clan name as in the various version of Tupou that we have discussed before.Tupou Lahi, Tupou Toutai, Tupou 'i Fale Tuipapai, Tupou Lahisi'i, etc.etc.

So we can see that they all use Tupou as part of the clan and distant relatives but they are not sons of Josiah Tupou as in Tupou 'i Fale Tuipapai.

I know there is alot of proof that the Tupou the Missionaries were talking about was Tupou 'i Fale Tui Papai who was known as Aleamotu'a. That could be proven by family genealogy, academia and missionaries.

Your mistake is the confusion of the Fielakepa families and the Aleamotu'a families. I am sure you can researched and come to the same conclusion as other writers who have covered this subject.

The numbering system while important to keep the record of the number of children but they were not to designate the right to inherited the throne. The influence of the young chiefs from their mothers clan and their own characters will determined if you will be accepted as a King.Puakatau (talk) 14:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

INCONSISTENT

The inconsistent information provided by Puakatau is a lunacy. Now we hear now that Tupouto'a and Tuku'aho accede as King of Tonga?

Tuku'aho was assassinated while his father King Mumui 13th Tu'iKanokupolu was still alive and ruling Tonga. Tupouto'a ( Tuku'aho only son) died in 1812 while King Tupoumalohi ( Tuku'aho's second brother) was still the King of Tonga.

To say that the title Fielakepa aas installed by the clan Ha'a Havea, on Aleamotu'a heirs is quite a joke ! May I point out that it's the outright rights of the monarch, King Aleamotu'a to bestow the nobility titles or strip the nobility titles from any Tongans/ clans. The clan such as Ha'a havea have no authority or power at all to bestow or award nobility title !

Give ,King Aleamotu'a the dignity and truthfulness he deserves !

Anacrossan (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks For Maintaining the Article
To those who reverted Anacrossan vandalism, I appreciate giving me the opportunity to start editing the article to be concise and usefriendly. I have collected alot of materials and I will edit and try to focus the article on the subject matter. There were alot of block quotes I put up but I will see if I can reduce the amount of block quotes.

Anacrossan, you have to read the references and my comment carefully. I think you misunderstand some comments. Puakatau (talk) 04:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit, I will edit some more when time permit. Puakatau (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

MISLEADING INFORMATION.

1) The claim by Puakatau in his article that Sosaia Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou is quite wrong and misleading ! The early missionaries in Tonga, i.e. Rev. John Thomas, Rev. Turner, Charles Tucker, Lawry never mentioned in their journals that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou ! However, Puakatau extended and readjusted the original quotations of the missionaries by adding his own versions into his article, yet still claiming that his own quotations were not his but from missionaries. For example, Puakatau claims that the missionary Rev. Lawry quoted Aleamotu'a as Siosaia Tupou. May I point out that by examining the original journal of Rev.Lawry, the missionary, Mr Lawry never once quoted that!

2) Sosaia Aleamotu'a is a total different name to Siosaia Tupou. Sosaia Aleamotu'a and Siosaia Tupou titles are total different to each other even in meanings and origins.

3) In the Aleamotu'a article, written by Puakatau, it is evident that Puakatau reajdusted the title Sosaia Aleamotu'a to become Siosaia Tupou. This was done by inserting his own versions and his own intepretations and make it to look as originals and as direct quotations from his sources, i.e. early missionaries.

4) Puakatau needs to provide evidence and explanation why Aleamotu'a the number 17th of the children of Kaufusi and Mumui become King but not their older 16 children??

Anacrossan (talk) 22:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

GLARIFICATION
Anacrossan has alleged above that Josiah Tupou is a different person from Aleamotu'a and accuse me of falsifying quotation to support my point.

In that case I like to provide some the proof and point that Aleamotu'a (his birthname) was address/known as Tupou since 1826 when he was a King, and was baptised as Josiah Tupou in 1830.

a. Tupou is a formal title for the Tu'i Kanokupolu or King as refer to by some missionaries. It is not a name. Refer to Vason and Thomas description of Tuku'aho and Taufa'ahau's installation. To used Tupou as a name willhave a suffix added like Tupoumalohi or Tupouto'a to identify that person.

b. The history of the Wesleyan Methodist missionary society, Volume 3 By George Gillanders Findlay, William West Holdsworth, page 287, stated that Tupou the rightful heir to the throne. The refence that was written to descriped Tupou at the footnote stated that, Tubou was the family name of the dynasty, always borne by the head of the clan.This confirmed that Tupou is the name that you address the name of the clan or Tu'i Kanokupolu.

c. The diaries and correspondence of David Cargill, 1832-1843, by David Cargill, Albert J. Schütz, page 26, referenced Aleamotu'a as ''"Josiah Tupou baptised thus in 1830 (Lawry:1850;pg 238), was also named Aleamotua and Tupouifaletuipapai (Gifford:1926;87). In 1826 he was appointed Tui Kanokupolu- the herediatary title of the present king of Tonga- and he died in 1845." ''

Aleamotu'a was selected as Tu'i Kanokupolu in 1826 and then installed in 1827 and thus he was address and known as Tupou.The following reference point that Aleamotu'a was King.

1. Palace Office Tongan Official History listed Aleamotu'a as 18th Tu'i Kanokupolu from 1826 to 1845.

2. Tonga Prime Minister Office History listed Aleamotu'a as 18th Tu'i Kanokupolu.

3. Father Chevron, the first Catholic Priest to land in 1842 on Tongatapu, wrote that he went and met Aleamotu'a, the Tu'i Kanokupolu who was baptised by the Welyan as Sosaia.

4. To live among the stars: Christian origins in Oceania By John Garrett, page 72. descriped how the first Methodist Missionaries to stay in Nuku'alofa in 1827, Mr Turner and Mr Gross stayed with ALeamotu'a (Tupou)a chief who has declared for Tahitian Christianity. Mr Garret wrote Aleamotu'a then bracket Tupou to designate who Tupou was as descriped by Turner and Gross.

5. Tonga and the Friendly Islands: with a sketch of their mission history.By Sarah Stock Farmer, page 193, descriped the baptism of Moala the wife of Tupou on the 29th March 1829. She was baptised as Mary. The Tongan name that Aleamotu'a's wife is known by is Melemoala which is derived from Mele (Mary) Moala. This also conclude that Mary the wife of Tupou means Tupou as Aleamotu'a the King.

To address why Aleamotu'a was listed as number 17th child of Mumui became King have been discussed before. In a polyganmy society the King have many wives and concubines. Aleamotu'a's mother was a wife and not a concubines, was the daughter of a Chief from the Ha'a Havea Clan and grandaughter of the Tamaha. Aleamotu'a was influential as his mother was influential and related to the 2nd senior clan of the Tu'i Kanokupolu. The missionaries related that he was installed in 1827 when the heathen chiefs clan bribed Aleamotu'a not to become Christian and he will installed as tu'i Kanokupolu.

Anacrossan, you have to read and understand the article and the references.Puakatau (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Dr Rev Niumeitolu

The doctorate thesis by the Anacrossan own family elders stated that Aleamotu'a was King and was baptised as Josiah Tupou. Check the article refences....Puakatau (talk) 15:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

THE LIES AND FALSE CLAIMS FROM PUAKATAU, IS NEVER ENDING!

I am not suprise at Puakatau excuses and reasons why Aleamotu'a the number 17th of the children of Kaufusi and Mumui, as he claims become King. Puakatau excuses and reasons is because Tonga society was a polygamy society ! This is quite a false claim indeed. Also this excuse that because Tonga a polgamy society, that's why the number 17th of the children of Kaufusi and Mumui, Aleamotu'a become King but not the older 16 children of theirs ( Kaufusi and Mumui)?? A STUPID FOOL MAY BELIEVE PUAKATAU ANSWER BUT NOT THE PUBLIC AT LARGE!

To my view if Mumui and Kaufusi did have 17 children and they all legitimate children (As claims by Puakatau) then, it will not affect by this polygamy issue at all. This is because the 17 children are not from various relationships but from one legitimate marital relationship( Kaufusi and Mumui).

This claim by Puakatau that polygamy was the reason why Aleamotu'a the number 17th of the 17 children of Mumui and Kaufusi become King but not his older 16 siblings who were legitimate too.

It is clear to me that the reasons provided by Puakatau is made up by him ! His version and excuses on polygamy is false and another piece of information made up by him! This is a pattern of behaviour by Puakatau, and that is making up false stories and information and added to his article.

Also, I like to point out that the missionaries never stated in their journals or any of their documentations, that ALEAMOTU'A IS SIOSAIA TUPOU. Even Father Chevron quotation, that cited by Puakatau, has never quoted that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou ! Sosa'ia Aleamotu'a as quoted by Father Chevron is total different to the title, Siosaia Tupou !

Puakatau article on ALEAMOTU'A is not an honest piece of writing but truly a piece of fake and self serving piece of writing.

Anacrossan (talk) 04:17, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

IN DENIAL

Anacrossan is just in denial. Denying the information while not giving any references to support her denial. This show there will be no more value added from Anacrossan but just denial of her own relative,Dr Rev Niumeitolu, Denial of Father Chevron the priest and all other academia who have come to the same conclusion...lol. Puakatau (talk) 04:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

READ the REFERENCES
Anacrossan should read the references before coming up with a statement like, "To my view". We dont care about your view Anacrossan, we care what the references state and the firsthand account wrote by people who were on the spot and met these people and recorded these events..lol..

Anacrossan, if you read the references you will understand why Aleamotu'a is listed as number 17th of Mumui's children while Aleamotu'a is the oldest child between Mumui and Kaufusi's 4 children.

Anacrossan, what is legitimacy and how do you based legitimacy in a society without law. The custom in a polygamy Tongan society was based who and how strong your mother's clan as they will be the people supporting you.

Anacrossan last point was that no missionary state that Aleamotu'a was Josiah Tupou. Now let us look at some facts.

1. 1826, Aleamotu'a was selected as Tu'i Kanokupolu or King, and he was address as Tupou.

2. 1826, Aleamotu'a appropriate 2 Tahitian LMS Missionaries to settle and teach him Christianity in Nuku'alofa.The missionaries refer to Aleamotu'a as Tupou since he is the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu selected.

3. 1827, Tupou was installed as King.

4. 1830, Tupou the King was baptised as Josiah Tupou with his four children and wed Mary Moala, his Tongan wife. Melemoala is the daughter of Soakai from Felemea and the wife of Aleamotu'a, mother of Ma'afu 'o Tu'i Tonga (1st Tu'i Lau),Niumeitolu and two younger children as Mr Thomas recorded that they were baptised on the same date. That is why the memorial for their eldest son Ma'afu is the Toa ko Ma'afu is on the Sia ko Veiongo (father's family/kainga) and the 'Esi 'o Ma'afu is on Felemea (mother's family/kainga). Toa ko Ma'afu is also named with that Rugby side in Longolongo as that is still part of the father's family/kainga where the old Nuku'alofa expand from the old settlement (Kolomotu'a) to Longolongo/Tavatu'utolu area.

5. 1842, Father Chevron stated that he visit and met Aleamotu'a, the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu.

6. 1845, Josiah Tupou the King passed away and Taufa'ahau became Taufa'ahau Tupou.

To conclude this simple analysis,there was only one King as Tu'i Kanokupolu from 1826 to 1845. It was Father Chevron who wrote and confirmed in 1842 that Aleamotu'a is still King and Tu'i Kanokupolu. Mr Thomas recorded the baptism of the King and his wedding to Mary Moala. Mary Moala or Melemoala is the wife of Tupou (Aleamotu'a) as King.

So it follow the tradition that when he was born, he was named Aleamotu'a, and then selected as King or Tu'i Kanokupolu and he was addressed as Tupou the Tu'i Kanokupolu, then he was baptised as Josiah Tupou then later known after he passed away as Tupou 'i Faletuipapai, after the place he was buried, Fale Tuipapai (part of the Mala'e'aloa). That is why Tupou IV held that memorial services in Mala'e'aloa in 1997 to remember Aleamotu'a/ Josiah Tupou, the King who accepted Christianity in 1826 and baptised in 1830. The year 1997 was also the anniversary of 200 years of the first arrival of the Christian faith in Tonga with the LMS Missionary in 1797, where Ceorge Vason was part of the group. Queen Mata'aho and the chief Fielakepa was acknowledged by Tupou IV as the grandchildren of Aleamotu'a.

Anacrossan just go and read what DR Rev Niumeitolu stated in his Doctorate thesis, that Aleamaotu'a was baptised as Josiah Tupou and you see the logic.

Puakatau (talk) 05:44, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

DISTORTED INFORMATION BY PUAKATAU

1) The baptism refer to by Puakatau in regards to Aleamotu'a and his children is all distortion of the truth. Rev. John Thomas has never mentioned the title Siosaia Tupou, however Puakatau added Siosaia Tupou and argued that Sosai'a Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou. Yet the missionaries Rev. John Thomas and Rev. Turner never stated in their journals that whom they baptised was Siosaia Tupou !

2)  Rev. John Thomas never mentioned the name of children at the baptism in 1830. However, Puakatau added to Rev. John Thomas documents by naming the children as Ma'afu,Niumeitolu, Lausi'i and the girl was Kaifonuaamanu . This is quite a fraud and dishonesty. Why Puakatau added the names of the children that were never documented or stated by Rev. John Thomas or other missionaries?? Not only did Puakatau added in his own version the names of the children, but he also elaborate and adding in his own versions ,i.e. 'Esi 'o Ma'afu, Ma'afu Tu'i Lau,etc,  distorting it to look as if it's part of the original statements or quotations from the missionaries !

3)Now Puakatau explanation has shifted again! Now he said that Aleamotu'a is the oldest of the four children of Kaufusi and Mumui! May I bring to everyone attention that, Puakatau wrote in his Aleamotu'a article that Kaufusi and Mumui have 17 children and Aleamotu'a was the number 17 of their children ! Aleamotu'a suddenly shifted from number 14, 16, and 17th to number 4 !! Puakatau is still unable to give any explanation nor able to clarify why the number 17th Aleamotu'a become King but not his older 16 siblings who have more legitimacy claim to be as King than Aleamotu'a ? Why ?

4) My other concern is, that Puakatau is dodging and passing the blame to others whom he collected his information from or sources. Isn't its Puakatau's responsibilites to assess the genuineness and reliabity of his own sources and references before writing them in his article on Aleamotu'a ?

My conclusion on this Puakatau's article on Aleamotu'a, that it is a fraud. The information provided by the article are distorted information to serve Paukatau's own self interest and false stories !

Anacrossan (talk) 23:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Read the References

Anacrossan, our dispute is from the lack of knowledge of how to read and research for information. This can be overcome with some simple way.

1. When you read a statement of facts in the article, it is usually followed with an ENDNOTE like a small number at the end of that statement. Look at the number then go to the list of endnotes at the end of the article and see what it say.e.g.Farmer, pg 25 which Stand for Framer page 25.

Now look below the Endnotes there is another list called SOURCES. Look for Farmer and it will say Farmer, Sarah, Tonga and the Friendly islands, 1885. So the name is the author of Sarah Farmer, the book's name is Tonga and the Friendly Islands which was printed in 1885.

Now look for the book in the internet and buy the book. After you buy it you read the book but check that page 25 will state the same fact that was stated in the article. I think if you follow that process you will find that I am not creating facts out of my pants like some people here do.

Now, your accusation that I have shifted my statement is wrong as you didnt read the statement properly. The statement is " Aleamotu'a is listed as the number 17th child of Mumui the 13th Tu'i Kanokupolu. His mother is Kaufusi daughter of the 1st Fielakepa.."Endnote.

So if you look at the endnotes it will direct you to Cocker at the Sources and will list Cocker with the Genealogy of Tonga by Tamaha 'Amelia which is hosted by Cocker at the website. Look at Tuputupulefanua and you will find the Tu'i Kanokupolu List and their children. That statement is based on that references as we can also double check with the Palace Office for the original document if challenged.

Aleamotu'a is listed as number 17th child of Mumui- Fact 1. (There is a total of 20 something children with 17th mothers and Aleamotu'a is 17th child by the 8th Lady) Aleamotu'a's mother is Kaufusi daughter of Fielakepa- Fact 2. Aleamotu'a is the oldest of four children of Kaufusi and Mumui- Fact 3.

Will answer your question later again..Puakatau (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

A FAKE PIECE OF INFORMATION BY PUAKATAU !

Puakatau now claim that Kaufusi and Mumui have only four children, and Aleamotu'a was the number 17th of King Mumui. Quite a confusing piece of false information ! This current information is totally different from his earliest claims that Aleamotu'a was the number 14th? then 16th, then 17th, etc., etc, and now he is number 1 of the 4 children of Kaufusi and Mumui. Also the sources he provided, the Cocker Family Genealogy is quite an unreliable source to use in Tu'iKanokupolu topics.

The claim by Puakatau that King Josiah Tupou who died in 1845 is Aleamotu'a. This is false and incorrect. May I point out that the missionaries never mentioned in their records that Josiah Tupou was Aleamotu'a. Puakatau argued that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou. How can that be? Aleamotu'a acceded as King with the title, Aleamotu'a. Aleamotu'a was the title he used during his reign to 1830. Aleamotu'a was never known as Siosaia Tupou. The title Siosaia Tupou or Josiah Tubou was the title owned by Tupou ( known as Namoa during his childhood life). Never the missionaries ever mentioned that Siosaia Tupou was Aleamotu'a ! or Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a.

I would like to state here that King Mumui did have four sons only and they were, Tuku'aho, the oldest, then Tupoumalohi, then Aleamotu'a and the youngest was, Tupou (known as Namoa in his childhood). Tupou was the only one in King Mumui's only four children was the holder of the title, Siosaia Tupou !

Anacrossan (talk) 23:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Anacrossan problems is that she can not back up her claimed and she disregarded some of the more important facts that is firsthand account.

Fact 1. The King was address as Tupou. This is recorded by Vason (Tuku'aho's installation )and Mr Thomas (Taufa'ahau's installation. This conclude that when Aleamotu'a was selected as King, he was address as Tupou. Other academia like Gifford also wrote that Aleamotu'a is also known as Tupou 'i Fale Tuipapai and baptised as Josiah Tupou. That is first hand account, published by a third party.

Fact 2. Father Chevron arrived in 1842 and recorded meeting the King Aleamotu'a who was baptised as Sosaia (Tongan version for Josiah). This conclude that in 1842, Aleamotu'a was still King and he was baptised by the Weslyan as Josiah.

Fact 3. Mr Thomas wrote that on the 18th January 1830, the King Tupou was baptised as Josiah Tupou and married his wife Moala who was baptised in 1829 as Mary, thus the name Mary Moala or Tongan Mele Moala. Aleamotu'a wife is Mele Moala, daughter of Soakai from Felemea and the mother of Ma'afu and Niumeitolu. That is why the 'Esi 'o Ma'afu is on Felemea and Toa ko Ma'afu is on Sia ko Veiongo in Nuku'alofa.

Fact 4. Mr Thomas wrote that Filakepa an old chief of Havelu and related to Tupou, accepted Christianity. Aleamotu'a's mother is Kaufusi, daughter of Fielakepa. Mr Thomas did not wrote the born name of this Fielakepa but most likely to be his maternal uncle or fa'etangata, that means likely the brother of Kaufusi, Aleamotu'a's mother. This conclude that Tupou is also Aleamotu'a who was King from 1826 to 1845.

Fact 5. The Palace Office of Tonga and other Official History of Tonga, listed the names of the Tu'i Kanokupolu or King. Aleamotu'a is named as the 18th King or Tu'i Kanokupolu, 1826-1845. Taufa'ahau is named as 19th Tu'i Kanokupolu and the first King of a unified Tonga from 1845 onwards.

Fact 6. King Taufa'ahau Tupou IV of Tonga, held a commemoration Service in 1997 at Mala'e'aloa, to commemorate the 200 years of the first arrival of Christianity in 1797 where Mr Vason was part of the LMS missionaries group. The location of this services at Mala'e'aloa the named of cemetry where Aleamotu'a is buried is to honor and remember Aleamotu'a, the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu who accepted and first sponsored Chritianity. The chief Fielakepa and the Queen, was acknowledged by the King as the grandchildren of Aleamotu'a

These facts conclude and confirmed beyond any doubt, that the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu from 1826 to 1845, was born Aleamotu'a, then address as Tupou when selected King, was baptised as Josiah Tupou and then later known as Tupou 'i Fale Tui Papai after he was buried as a reference to his burial place, the old part of Mala'e 'aloa.There are other academia who mention Aleamotu'a and recently Anacrossan family, Dr Rev. Taliai Niumeitolu also wrote that Aleamotu'a was baptised as Josiah Tupou.

The issue that Anacrossan mention that I have shifted my statement is totaly wrong as she did not understand the english expression first used which was, "Aleamotu'a is listed as the 17th child of Mumui" and the second part is "his mother is Kaufusi the daughter of Fielakepa". If Anacrossan understand that the polygamy society, Aleamotu'a is listed as 17th child of Mumui the King but his mother is Kaufusi. If she can only look into the reference, she will notice that Kaufusi had four children with Mumui. So my only comment is to read the references....lol.. and try to understand english better...lol..

Anacrossan can now see that all references were valid and I dont create any facts. It is important to also note that the Aleamotu'a family was not used as a reference but all facts are independent and from firsthand account and published by a third party.Puakatau (talk) 19:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

MISLEADING AND FALSE INFORMATION BY PUAKATAU

1830, The Rev. John Thomas never mentioned Siosaia Tupou. Sosaia is not Siosaia Tupou ! Stop trying to provide meisleading information that Sosaia is Siosaia Tupou !

It is quite misleading of you Puakatau, to say that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou(Josiah Tubou).

Aleamotu'a title was the title that Aleamotu'a died with it, not Siosaia Tupou!

Aleamotu'a was the title that he was known during his reign and died with. Even to this date,he is still known today as Aleamotu'a, not as Siosaia Tupou. Not the new inventions and reasons you trying to provide that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou, because the King usually refer to as Tupou. This is call manipulation of the false information.

Also, the polygamy reasons provided by Puakatau as an excuse, why Aleamotu'a the number 17th become King is quite false. As I stated before that in Puakatau earlier discussions, and writings on Aleamotu'a article and discussion on Namoa ( Siosaia Tupou), he did mentioned that Aleamotu'a was the number 16t/ 17th of the children of Kaufusi. Now Puakatau, twisted it that Aleamotu'a is the number 17th of Mumui's children and oldest of the four children of Kaufusi and Mumui.

May I say here that all of these different versions by Puakatau, indicated that the information he provided are false and misleading. All of these rubbish provided by Puakatau !

Anacrossan (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

RUBBISH IS WHEN THERE ARE NO REFERENCES

Anacrossan just go and read a book and hopefully it will show you some light. All your claim are baseless and there are no references or anyone other than you who wrote about your claim.

IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ OTHERS BOOKs, THEN PLEASE GO AND READ DR REV TALIAI NIUMEITOLU THESIS WHICH IS ALSO PROVIDED AS A REFERENCE.

BELIEVE YOUR OWN FAMILY AND PLEASE DELETE YOUR ARTICLE IN YOUR SO CALLED PMO SITE AS IT ALSO CONTRADICT ANOTHER PAGE WITHIN THAT SITE WHICH LISTED THE KINGS AND ALEAMOTU'A IS LISTED AS KING FROM 1826 TO 1845....lol.. sorry but you sound loco going on like that with no reference to discuss..lol..Puakatau (talk) 15:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

'''NO EVIDENCE! CANNOT PROVE.'''

Pukatau has not able to provide evidence to prove that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou. I have mentioned in my previous comments, that never have any of the early missionaries or any document(s) or journal(s) by early missionaries ever mentioned that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou.

It's easy to Puakatau to make it up and to fill in the space and claim that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou, which is a misleading and fraud to do that ! Aleamotu'a was crowned as Aleamotu'a and died as Aleamotu'a never as Siosaia Tupou, as claim by Puakatau.

Also that information provided by Puakatau that Aleamotu'a the number 17th of children of Mumui, is quite a false piece of information.

I don't know why this false and misleading information of Puakatau, is allowed in this article.

Anacrossan (talk) 03:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

IN DENIAL

Anacrossan is just in denial. Denial and added no value to the discussion by adding or even quoting any references...lol..

Anacrossan even deny her own relative Dr Rev Niumeitolu, Fr Chevron and other academia who have wrote and concluded in agremment. Can Anacrossan provide anyone that will support her claim?

Anacrossan claim is what we called Blowing your own Trumpet of how high and mighty you are with no one supporting your view. The trumpet started to sound funny...lol,Puakatau (talk) 04:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

FALSE AND MISLEADING

Puakatau 's article on Aleamotu'a is false and misleading. His version on Aleamotu'a as the number 17th of the children become King because of polygamy reasons. According to Puakatau, although Aleamotu'a the number 17th of Mumui's children and the oldest of the 4 children of Kaufusi and Mumui, he become King because of polygamy reasons in society. This is a false and misleading piece of information. There is no evidence or Tongan values as such, that polygamy a tradition. This is an example of another made up information by Puakatau.

Another false information that made up by Puakatau was the naming of Aleamotu'a's children, during their baptism in 1830. According to Puakatau the children's names were Ma'afu, Niumeitolu, Lausi'i and the girl was Kaifonua. This is contradictory to records and journals of Rev. John Thomas, Rev. Turner, who did conduct the Baptism. Never have the missionaries ever mentioned, the names of the children, yet Puakatau inserted into his article, his own invention of names for the children.

Also, the missionaries never mentioned or record on their journals that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou. Again, Puakatau put in and claim in his Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou. Quite a contradiction to records of early missionaries like Rev. Turner and Rev.John Thomas.

Also, the claim that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou,is misleading. There was no records or any traditional documentations or family oral records that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou.

My view is that Puakatau's article on Aleamotu'a is a self serving and a very bias piece of information.

Anacrossan (talk) 22:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Just being in denial does not prove anything. Anacrossan address of Mr Thomas and Mr Turner writing and at the sametime forgot to address Father Chevron writing which he stated that Aleamotu'a was the King (Tu'i Kanokupolu) he met in 1842 and was baptised by the Wesleyan as Sosaia. This all in the references.

Anacrossan you have to address all the references and the timeline and you can easily form the big picture and conclude that there was only one King from 1826 to 1845. This King was born by the name Aleamotu'a, addressed as Tupou the King and baptised as Josiah Tupou then finally died and buried and known as Tupou 'i Fale Tuipapai after the place he chose for his resting place.

Another example that you may be familiar with is: Ngininginiofolanga who became Taufa'ahau and was also known by the name Maeakafa and nickname Lopaukamea. He was later baptised as King George Taufa'ahau and then later installed as King George Taufa'ahau Tupou. The Tupou is to designate King or Tu'i Kanokupolu as Mr Thomas wrote what Motu'apuaka said the name in the installation. It is not a name unless suffix is added to identify the person.

The naming of the children is from the Genealogy of Tonga. You can easily referenced that as it was with an inline citation.

Aleamotu'a was selected King by the chiefs of the Ha'a Tu'i Kanokupolu and then later installed in Hihifo. Polygamy is a social structure where the result would be the children ages will be mixed up as different ladies will give birth at the same time. You can look into the Tu'i Kanokupolu page and you can look into what G Vason wrote about the household of Mulikiha'amea, he slept with one wife and there were other wives who slept in an enclosure on the side. He has 4 to 8 wives from time to time. That is why the children ages are all mixed up.

This is why the administrator decided to DELETE your Namoa Fairy Story as you dont have anyone wrote about Namoa but only you who blow your own trumpet and that is what we call self interest. Not only that but you unshamingly wrote about other people like Aleamotu'a who if you did not blow your trumpet around, people will not have to correct your unshame way.

The Aleamotu'a page if for the PUBLIC INTEREST and that is why we have painstakingly researched for a wider referenced base as the Methodist and other Missionaries have their own interest during this period.Puakatau (talk) 04:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

FALSE INFORMATION !

My comments still stand, Aleamotu'a was never been Siosaia Tupou. Puakatau, your version is quite misleading and false. Did Father Cheveron said that Aleamotua was Siosaia Tupou ? Father Chevron never mentioned that. Also, I think your interpretation of the quotation is misrepresented and misleading. May be Father Chevron mentioned in French that Aleamotu'a's name was mentioned in Pea but he never met Aleamotu'a ! Also, There was never any records in that period or even by missionaries to state that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou! Puakatau you have to stop filling in words and your assumptions and try to make it as a fact. I stated here that Aleamotu'a is not Siosaia Tupou! Aleamotu'a never been known as Siosaia Tupou. Aleamotu'a was the title he was crowned on and he died still holding that title, never Siosaia Tupou.

It was Tupou ( a.k.a.Namoa in his childhood) was the inital and only holder of the title Siosaia Tupou, not Aleamotu'a.

Also as in my previous discussions, Puakatau you are providing false information by filling in information and details based from your own assumptions and tremendous bias and make it out as fact. Just like your false claims that Aleamotu'a the number 17th of Mumui's children become King because of polygamy practices in society? What a stupid and false claim!

I do agree with the assessment by the panel in your Aleamotu'a article, that your versions is quite a bias piece of writing. To add to the assessment, your versions is full of rubbish, Puakatau!

Also, stop going around Puakatau and steal others articles ! Can't you start your own article rather than going around and steal others ? Your ongoing stealing practices does reflect who you are, Puakatau !

114.77.201.78 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Anacrossan (talk) 22:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

In Denial

It is hard to debate with someone when she does not read the references and much harder when she does not support her claim with anything as close to a source for verification.

The claim for false information by Anacrossan is ridiculous as she can read the references and know where all the information comes from and she does not provide any other information to contradict the information provided. So Anacrossan is not contesting the validity of the information she is denying the validity of the information and that is why I conclude that Anacrossan is In Denial.

The Administrator did explain to Anacrossan that NO ONE OWN A PAGE in Wikipedia, everyone is welcome to edit but there are guidelines to follow: WP:Verify WP:Sourcesetc. So Anacrossan does not understand that we all contribute to make Wikipedia useful for the PUBLIC and this is not a forum where she can come and BLOW HER OWN TRUMPET with no one even acknowledging her story. So if Wiki is for the public to edit and use, it belong to the public and we cannot steal what we own, can we?

This is how Anacrossan cant read and comprehend what is written:

1. Aleamotu'a became King as he was elected by the Chief in 1826 before Mr Thomas arrived. He was address as Tupou by Mr Thomas as he was elected King. He was formally installed in 1827 by the chiefs in Hihifo.

2. Polygamy, Tu'i Kanokupolu article Vason explain the Mulikiha'amea Household, a former Tu'i Kanokupolu who became a Tu'i Ha'atakalaua at this time. Vason explain that he has four to eight wives from time to time and the children are ranked according to their mother in the Tongan cultures. The numbering system was developed much later and is currently used by the Genealogy of Tonga as to indentify how many children the King had, and which child belong to which lady. Number 17th is not the rank but a identity number...lol.. Aleamotu'a is ranked as his mother is the grandaughter of the Tamaha Tu'imala. He was elected King most likely by the Ha'a Havea's support as he is a grandson of Fielakepa, chief from the Ha'a Havea.

3. Anacrossan, you agree and confirmed that Father Chevron (Patele Sevelo), the first Catholic priest to land in Tongatapu wrote that on his arrival in 1842, he wrote he met the Tu'i Kanokupolu, Aleamotu'a, whom was baptised by the Wesleyan as Sosaia. Since we all agree that the good priest record what he saw, that Aleamotu'a was King in 1842, then it should not be difficult to agree that:

a. Mr Vason and Mr Thomas record how the King is address as Tupou/Tubou in Tuku'aho and Taufa'ahau's installment as King.

b. Mr Thomas record of the King Tupou when Mr Thomas arrived in 1826 is Aleamotu'a since:

i. Aleamotu'a was elected King in 1826 and so addressed as Tupou, and

ii. the King Tupou that was installed in 1827 as King was also Aleamotu'a and

iii. the King Tupou who was baptised as Josiah Tupou in 1830 was also Aleamotu'a and the

iv. Josiah Tupou that married Mary Moala his Tongan wife is Aleamotu'a since that is Melemoala daughter of Soakai and wife of Aleamotu'a and

v. the King that met Father Chevron in 1842 he recorded as Aleamotu'a who was baptised as Sosaia by the Wesleyan.

vi. The Wesleyan missionaries Father Chevron wrote about was Mr Thomas and the Methodist missionaries, Sosaia or Siosaia is the Tongan version of Josiah of the bible.

The above all conclude that Aleamotu'a was the King from 1826 to 1845 which agree with all academia and the History of Tonga and no wonder Dr Rev Niumeitolu also conclude in the same way.

Why dont you ask Dr Rev Niumeitolu for the truth since he wrote that Aleamotu'a was baptised as Josiah Tupou. Puakatau (talk) 05:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Forgot about the Tag

The tag was removed by myself as:

1. I am allowed to removed it since the editor who put it on did not write in the talk page why he think it is appropriate to tag the article.

2. The tag is for Bias to a region and should be Globalised. The tag is not appropriate since it is a Biography of a person within a region and we can not Globalised this article.Puakatau (talk) 05:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

ONGOING LIES AND FALSE INFORMATION

Puakatau you misinterpreted my comment on Father Chevron. I never said that I agreed with you.What I did comment on is that you may have misrepresent Father Chevron's quotation on Aleamotu'a ! Father Chevron may have quoted that Aleamotu'a's name was mentioned in Pea which your own translation and interpretation may contradicts his ( Father Chevron) quotes.

Also, it's time for Puakatau to stop adding and make up stories that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou! The missionaries never said it even any original records on Tonga, never mentioned that Aleamotu'a was Siosaia Tupou( Josiah Tubou). It is only Puakatau who fill in his missing dots with lies and false claim that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou.

Aleamotu'a was known with Aleamotu'a title, during his reign as King( 1820-1830) and he died still known as Aleamotu'a. Never as Siosaia Tupou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 23:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The article of Puakatau in Aleamotu'a is full of lies and false information. The comments and quotes by missionaries and owners of those has been distorted and modify by Puakatau to serve his own bias piece of writing on Aleamotu'a.

I hope the wikipedia panel delete Puakatau's piece of edit on Aleamotu'a. It's a false,acutely biasand self serving piece of writing.

Anacrossan (talk) 23:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Aleamotu'a was King in 1842 as recorded by Father Chevron
How can Namoa be King in 1830 when Aleamotu'a was still King in 1842 as the priest recorded?

How can Namoa your claimed Josiah Tupou, married Mary Moala when she was the wife of Aleamotuu'a from Felemea which was recorded by Mr Thomas the King Tupou was baptised as Josiah and marry his Tongan wife, Moala who was baptised as Mary.

The missionaries never recorded that Namoa was King

Where is your references that said Namoa was King?

Aleamotu'a was elected King in 1826 so he was adressed as Tupou as they address the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu.

Why do you think that the current Aleamotu'a used Josiah or Siiosaia Tupou as some of their family names.

Anacrossan's family in Kolomotu'a was only known for Kaiha'a (stealing) and Angahala Fakamala'ia (INCEST). SO you want to argue it out with no references at all.

Puakatau was the warrior that was sent with Taufa'ahau when he came asking for support from 'Eua. He was given canons and powder and the warrior Puakatau was sent with him.

Puakatau was killed in the war and the story he was killed by the Ha'apai warriors from his own side as they were jealous.....lol... Taufa'ahau never thanks the chiefs in 'Eua thus the saying and name Hau pea Kui or in English, Taufa'ahau was blind when he became King ....lol..

With all that history it does not prove that Namoa was King and only the references pointed that Aleamotu'a was Tupou and was King from 1826 to 1845.Puakatau (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

YOUR OWN INVENTIONS, PUAKATAU!

The citations on Puakatau's article, is more of Puakatau's own made up stories and oown versions. Puakatau noted in one of his paragraph cited a quote as a quote from Taufa'ahau. A false and Puakatau's own invention. Even his own made up stories about his ancestor, Puakatau. Puakatau claims that his ancestor Puakatau( whom he is named after) helps Taufa'ahau ! This is quite a piece of false claim! Why then Taufa'ahau did not have anything to do with this poor ancestor of yours Puakatau? Why Taufa'ahau not even acknowledge your ancestor Puakatau or his brother Kaufana and his supporters? Why?

The answer to that is, why Taufa'ahau(King Siaosi Tupou 1) a very honest and dignified character will have to reward or acknowledged people like Puakatau and his brother Kaufana who were out to kill him ( Taufa'ahau), supporting Laufilitonga!

I am sure, any person who in their right mind will never ever reward a person who tries to kill him/ or her. It's not a natural behaviour to reward a person who tries to kill you! This is the situation similar to Taufa'ahau's situation. Why should he has to reward Puakatau an enemy who out to kill him!

Stop the lies, Puakatau. The lies and twisted lies made up by your family and ancestors against Taufa'ahau( King Siaosi Tupou 1). This passing down heredidary lies which acquired by this Puakatau ! does also reflected on Puakatau's versions on this article, Aleamotu'a. Made up lies and made up fictitious citations !

Addition to this is that, Aleamotu'a was never known as Siosaia Tupou! However Puakatau edited it and add in his own version that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a. The fact is that Aleamotu'a was never known as Siosaia Tupou or as Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a. Existing government of Tonga records shows Aleamotu'a did died still holding the title Aleamotu'a. Not the,Siosaia Tupou or Siosaia Tupou Aleamotu'a as claims by Puakatau.

Also are you too dumb Puakatau, to understand, that Namoa was a childhood name and Tupou was the adult title that Namoa did hold in his adult life! Namoa will only known to missionaries and early documentations as Tupou. Not as Namoa! I have mentioned this on various time. Anacrossan (talk) 06:57, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Anacrossan (talk) 06:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

VERIFICATION

This is an independent verification of what I have come to conclude:

1. That Aleamotu'a was the born name of the King or Tu'i Kanokupolu.

2. That the King is addressed as Tupou, as Vason and Thomas recorded the Tuku'aho and Taufa'ahau installation.

3. Mary Moala that Mr Thomas recorded as the wife of the King Tupou or Josiah Tupou was Melemoala the wife of Aleamotu'a from Felemea.

There are hundreds of Verification for Aleamotu'a as King from 1826-1845 and known as Aleamotu'a, Tupou or Josiah Tupou.

If Anacrossan only put up one piece for Namoa I will have to look into it. But as the Namoa article was deleted by the administrators as after 3 years of writing her story, Anacrossan have not verified her story...lol..

Verification

1. "Josiah Tupou, bapitised thus in 1830 (Lawry 1850:238). Was also named Aleamotua and Tupouifaletuipapai (Gifford 1929:87). In 1826 he was appointed as Tui Kanokupolu – the hereditary title of the present King of Tonga – and he died in 1845."

By: Schütz, Albert J, The diaries and correspondence of David Cargill, by David Cargill, 1832–1843; 1937 ,page 26

2. "Aleamotu‘a’s main worry was that the non-Christian chiefs would reject him as the possible successor to the title of the Tu‘i Kanokupolu. He was installed on 7 December 1827 as Tu‘i Kanokupolu but continued worshipping in secret. However six months later he determined to confront the intimidation of the non Christian chiefs and began to attend worship publicly. He was baptised on 10th January 1830, taking the name of Josiah, together with his three sons and two daughters in the presence of a congregation of six hundred at the chapel in Nuku‘alofa."

By: Niumeitolu Heneli T., The State and the Church, the state of the Church of Tonga, 2007; www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/2236/2/HNiumeitolu_PhD.pdf, page 129

3. In September 1833 Thomas complained of Aleamotu‘a extending his rule to the church, “Tupou has behaved as though he wished to be a Pope,” he wrote.

By: Niumeitolu Heneli T., The State and the Church, the state of the Church of Tonga, 2007; www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/2236/2/HNiumeitolu_PhD.pdf, page 131

4. “Le Vicaire apostolique n'hésita donc pas à descendre dans la grande île avec le P. Chevron; et, comme l'usage le demandait, il alla d'abord à Noukou-Alofa, où, sous le titre de Toui-Kano-Kopolou, résidait celui qu'on regardait comme le chef de la féodalité tongienne, sous la haute suzeraineté du Toui-Tonga. Le titulaire du moment était Aléa-Matoua, appelé Sosaïa depuis son baptême wesleyen ; son nom a été prononcé dans l'exposé de la guerre de Péa.”

By: Monfat A, Les Tonga; ou, Archipel des Amis et le R. P. Joseph Chevron de la Société de Marie, 1893, page 184

5. This group of Tahitian, with their checkered record, formed a significant bridgehead at Nuku'alofa for the entry of the Wesleyan, whose discouragement border on despair, until they found in Aleamotu'a (Tupou) at Nuku'alofa the chiefly sponsored they needed.

By: Garret John, To Live Among the Stars; Origin of Christianity in Oceania, 1982. page 71

6. Fale Tuipapai: Houses laid out in order. The vault, in which is buried King Josiah Tupou (Aleamotua), in the cemetery ...[fale, house; tui, placed; papal, laid out in order].

By: Willowdean Chatterson Handy; 1922; Tattooing in the Marquesas; ‎Page 56

Anacrossan if you dont get it by now, then we are not surprized as it must be genetics....lol..

Puakatau (talk) 15:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

TOO MUCH RUBBISH AND FALSE INFORMATION FROM PUAKATAU !

The rubbish provide by Puakatau, does not validate, why Aleamotu'a the number 17th of Mumui's children become King and not his older siblings who were also legitimate, as according to Paukatau.

The reasons put forward by Puakatau that the reason why Aleamotu'a become King is because of polygamy reasons ! This is a weak and false version from Puakatau again.

Too much references he provided as a cover up for his false and misleading and bias information.

Anacrossan (talk) 04:17, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

STOP THE LIES ! Here we see again Puakatau own lies and made up stories ! As according to Puakatau that Aleamotu'a was a childhood name and change to Siosaia Tupou as King. This is another false information and stories of Puakatau.

Puakatau, Aleamotu'a did die as Aleamotu'a, not as, Siosaia Tupou !

Even the few available Government records, recorded Aleamotu'a. Never there is or was any record that mentioned that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou!

Stop the lies Puakatau !

Anacrossan (talk) 04:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

There was only one King between 1826-1845

I believe that all sources conclude that there was only one King between 1826-1845.

It does not matter how you address the King: Aleamotu'a, Tupou, Josiah Tupou or Tupou 'i Faletuipapai but there was only one King- Tu'i Kanokupolu in 1826-1845.

The government was only established in 1775 with the Constitution of Tonga, 30 years after Aleamotu'a/Tupou/Josiah Tupou passed away.

Anacrossan, where are your sources to verify your claim??...lol...Puakatau (talk) 15:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Verify your claim !

Puakatau, where is any such document or records existed on Tonga that stated that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou?

Verify a document or a original record that stated that Aleamotu'a reign from 1826-45.

Puakatau you are the only one who made up stories that Aleamotu'a is Siosaia Tupou. Also you confused yourself,whether Aleamotu'a is Sosaia or Siosaia Tupou. Maybe you too dumb to figure out that it is quite evident and understandable that Siosaia Tupou is a total different title to Sosaia. Even the meanings and origins of Sosaia and Siosaia Tupou are totally different to each other.

The versions of Puakatau on his Aleamotu'a article is quite misleading and confusing. Puakatau still have not clarify yet, why Aleamotu'a become as King but not his older siblings who were more legitimate to the throne than Aleamotu'a. Puakatau, can you name the other 16 children of King Mumui?

As you already handpick and really know the name of the number 17th child as Aleamotu'a, therefore the first 16 of Mumui's children should not be a problem for you to name their names ? Can you name the other three children of King Mumui and Kaufusi. As you clearly know the youngest of the four children of Kaufusi and Mumui,you should have also knew the older three children.

The Aleamotu'a article of Puakatau does not add up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anacrossan (talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

READ THE REFERENCES

Anacrossan, read the various references and you will conclude that Aleamotu'a was the King from 1826-1845.

Read the references and you will know all the names of Mumui's 20+ children and their mothers.

Read the references and you will know Aleamotu'a brothers and sister.

Read the references and a Missionary wrote that he met the Tu'i Kanokupolu Aleamotu'a in 1842.

Why not just read the references or you want me to read it for you!! ...lol..Puakatau (talk) 07:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)