Talk:Aleister Crowley/Archive 7

Recreational drug experimenter, you sure?
Given this is unsourced in the article, there are tons of sources talking about his ritual drug use, which is the very opposite of recreational in this very context. I suppose whoever wrote or edited that paragraph had assumed being an 'experimenter' implied the 'recreational' part as well, but this is certainly not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.20.235.182 (talk) 17:27, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Infobox Vandalism
Apologies if this is in the wrong format or whatever, and I don't know how to delete this in the article so I won't try and fail, but I'm fairly sure Crowley's daughter is not Barbara Bush (!!!) Somebody better at this than me should fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:245:C001:81D:5877:870D:EA24:5B19 (talk) 00:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Ironic
How Crowley is considered "wicked" for having consensual sex and doing drugs in his time.

If he did the same things today he would be considered downright progressive, but people keep parroting Victorian newspaper headlines, for whatever reason. I certainly don't understand it. I wonder if these "modern day" critics have acually studied his work and came to their conclusions by themselves. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 09:23, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * EDIT: And that IMDB thing below is not part of my entry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.200.234.93 (talk) 09:25, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * What suggestions do you have for improving the article? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Moonchild: Songs Without Words 2006 album by John Zorn
I have noted the instruction not to "ADD ANY FURTHER INSTANCES OF CROWLEYAN INFLUENCE ON POPULAR CULTURE" unless they are sufficiently referenced by third parties - and substantial enough to warrant inclusion. I think Moonchild: Songs Without Words by John Zorn does fulfil this criteria but I am not sure. John Zorn is a major living composer known to be a Crowley fan according to The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/oct/30/scariest-classical-music which explains "Zorn's long infatuation with Aleister Crowley has one of its darkest, most vivid expressions in this album of surreal, sepulchral imagination, with Mike Patton's transcendently ghoulish vocals." Of course, Wikipedia itself acknowledges the direct influence of Crowley on this album too. (Moonchild: Songs Without Words is a 2006 album by John Zorn featuring performances by Joey Baron, Mike Patton, and Trevor Dunn (sometimes referred to as the "Moonchild Trio"). It was inspired in part by Aleister Crowley, who wrote the novel Moonchild...)

What do wiki editors think?


 * I'm not convinced, to be honest. I'd want to see academic scholarship make note of this before I think we could count it as being of particular importance. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:51, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Aren't The Guardian and Wikipedia itself (!) examples of "academic scholarship"? With that proviso in place you would have to remove at least 4 more examples from the list already allowed. Anyway, as you wish - you seem to be the gate-keeper. Anyway, it's a dreadful album so it doesn't really matter. Thanks Invulgo (talk) 11:35, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * No, neither of those represent academic scholarship; to be academic, it would have to be published in a peer-reviewed outlet. I suppose a really good press source would also be okay, but The Guardian source only seems to touch on the issue of Crowley's influence in passing. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:45, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Aleister
shouldn't it be something like ALL-ister? IPA -> US /ˈælɪstər/, UK /ˈælɪstə/ I'm sure it sounds different in Gaelic but still... Wathiik (talk) 09:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add that even "Crowley" is mispronounced here. The full pronunciation should be [ˈæl-ɪ-stər ˈkroʊ-liː] instead of [ˈæl-eɪ-stər ˈkraʊ-liː]. This is from his own poem, "The Convert":

"Where are you going so meek and holy?" "I'm going to temple to worship Crowley."

69.113.151.63 (talk) 17:09, 10 July 2019 (UTC)corpho

Misquoting The Book of the Law
In the section “Egypt and The Book of the Law: 1904”, it is misquoted as: “Every man and woman is a star.” The correct quote is: “Every man and every woman is a star.” 207.255.45.142 (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Corrected; thanks for spotting that!—Odysseus 1 4 7  9  21:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2019
Please link to Moonchild (novel) (and also to The Stratagem and other Stories):

"Now based in London, Mandrake Press agreed to publish his autobiography in a limited edition six-volume set, also publishing his novel Moonchild and book of short stories The Stratagem." 86.172.7.182 (talk) 15:37, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅ –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 22:09, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Crowley in Cornwall
According to an article in The Cornishman newspaper on 25 October, 2018, Crowley owned a remote cottage in Zennor. I am not intending to add anything to his wikipage but am putting the reference here in case anyone wants to follow it up.

Martin, Greg. Did infamous occultist summon Devil himself to this remote haunted house? The Cornishman (25 October, 2018). Page 3. Jowaninpensans (talk) 09:06, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Thelema religion?
Thelema has never been religion officially or unofficially. I think this perception is wrong and the information mischievous. See Thelema: An Introduction to the Life, Work & Philosophy of Aleister Crowley--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * "Officially or unofficially"? I don't think that makes a great deal of sense given that there is no formal body that is internationally recognised as declaring what is "officially" a religion and what is not. As for Thelema being a religion, however, it is noteworthy that not only does the modern Ordo Templi Orientis call Thelema a "religion" (here), but so does the website Thelema101 (here); clearly, many Thelemites (not necessarily all) are happy calling it a religion. Moreover, there are academic sources that refer to it as such too (for instance here, but also in Medway 2001, p. 44; Hanegraaff 2013, p. 42; Asprem 2013, p. 87; and Djurdjevic 2014, p. 38, all of which are presently cited in this article). We therefore have plenty of WP:Reliable Sources to attest to the fact that Thelema is widely considered a religion. Wikipedia's own article on Thelema, although not in very good shape, also repeatedly refers to it as a religion. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Wikipedia's article clarifies what is official religion and clearly Thelema is not officialy religion. As it concerns "unofficially" Crowley's mandate is quite clear. So if there is no formal consensus about what is religion the lemma should refer Crowley's view about his movement. As it is, info is still point of view and mischievous, according to my humble opinion--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Nav tempate and photo
The nav template was on the article practically from the template's creation, since 28 May 2006. It was last discussed here. There was no discussion of its removal.

The photo is per the last discussion on the photo, here:.

I believe I am implementing the only consensus on these two items which exist in previous discussion so if you could please point me to the discussion where the consensus changed before reverting me again, I'd appreciate it. ,, what do you think?

Skyerise (talk) 11:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not aware of any clear consensus on the issue of the navbar at the Talk Page, Skyerise. However, the navbar has been absent from the article for years and years (certainly since this article gained its GA rating back in 2014). You should not be edit warring to keep adding it (both to this article and others) when its addition has been challenged, as per the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. The appropriate thing would be for you to remove it and then seek to build a consensus for its addition here at the Talk Page.


 * When it comes to changing the lead image, citing a brief discussion that took place in 2008 is hardly reason enough to change an image that has been in place since at least the article became a GA in 2014. You need to build a new consensus for your desired changes, not just edit war to push them through. Again, the appropriate thing would be for you to self-revert and initiate an RfC to try and gain support for your changes. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Changing an infobox image based on a brief discussion that took place over a decade ago is not something that I can support. Of course, there is now a third image in the infobox. This complicates matters. A wider discussion might be necessary, assuming that each of the three parties is wedded to their respective choices. The previous version of the article, aside from any unrelated edits, should be restored until consensus is reached here. If it is not reached, a request for comment would be the next step. &#8213; Susmuffin Talk 09:53, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The Critics
Since at least Colin Wilson's book on The Occult, there have been those who wish to assign medical or psychiatric diagnoses to Mr. Crowley. The critics views should be cited. Kemual (talk) 04:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley
The Eastbourne College Archivist, Mr Michael Partridge,  has dispelled the myth that Aleister Crowley was a student at Eastbourne College. Crowley lived with a cousin in Eastbourne and occasionally visited Eastbourne College to work with the science master. 2A02:C7E:3930:F300:A59F:74D7:3EDD:2D7C (talk) 12:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Got a source for that? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 14:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

== Allan Bennett not properly attributed as a key and vital influence in Crowleys life - "this man could teach me more in a month than anyone else in five years" & "he bequeathed to me a beautiful Garden, the like of which hath rarely been seen upon Earth." ==

On this page, there is very little information about Allan Bennett and his influence on Crowly. The bulk is: "Bennett taught Crowley more about ceremonial magic and the ritual use of drugs, and together they performed the rituals of the Goetia,[35] until Bennett left for South Asia to study Buddhism.[36]"

Bennett was clearly a strong influences in Crowley's early life, and helped mold him in many ways.

The below is just mostly copy from the notes on Charles Henry Allan Bennett wiki page, see that page for sources. Obviously not all needed, but the current wiki on Crowley barely gives him a mention, as a passing notion, and of no real significance.

— Preceding signed by Atappa (talk • contribs) 01:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Notably Bennett helped Mathers put together an extended work the Book of Correspondences, a systematic grouping of esoteric symbols and numbers from around the world which Crowley later expanded into a book of Hermetic Qabalah the Liber 777.[47][51]
 * 2) Crowley became aware of a "tremendous spiritual and magical force" coming from the east; he knew it must be Frater Iehi Aour (Bennett).... Bennett came directly to Crowley startling him by announcing "Little brother, you have been meddling with the Goetia!"
 * 3)Crowley said later "I protested myself unworthy even to pronounce the word!".
 * 4) George Cecil Jones and Bennett were known to be Crowley's primary teachers during his days in the Golden Dawn. Bennett, four years older than Crowley, was the more experienced of the two and continued on to be one of greatest influences and inspirations in Crowley's life.[64][68][47][69]
 * 5) Crowley found in Bennett a Teacher of spiritual gnosis and a friend in spiritual seeking, and found him to be an "inspiration to work in white magic",[49] further imparting "he bequeathed to me a beautiful Garden, the like of which hath rarely been seen upon Earth."[71]
 * 6) Crowley organised a room for him in his Chancery Lane flat, "and settled down to pick his brains", for he knew his reputation "as the one Magician who could really do big-time stuff".[25][72]
 * 7) For days, weeks and months, Bennett trained Crowley in the basics of magic[73] and tried to instill a devotion to white magic.[74]
 * 8) He was reputedly celibate and on par with the influence of Oscar Eckenstein
 * 9) "In the year 1899 he was graciously pleased to receive me as his pupil, and, living in his house, I studied daily under his guidance the Holy Qabalah."[71] Crowley goes on to praise the "ratiocinative methods employed", and that the methods utilised were indeed "so fine and subtle that they readily sublime into the Intuitive."[78] As to some darker occult experiments that Crowley dabbled in at Chancery Lane he made the clear and specific point that Bennett "never had anything to do with this".[79]
 * 10) Crowley continued to relate that he "did not fully realize the colossal stature of that sacred spirit" and yet he was at once aware that "this man could teach me more in a month than anyone else in five years."[15][54]
 * 11) Crowley relating to Allans gave illness cycles: "But through it all the calm undaunted spirit walked the empyrean, and the radiant angelic temper ripened the wheat of friendship."[25]
 * 12) In a hallowing scene Bennett is described as "calm, majestic, clearly master of it all", Crowley paints in detail the aura of the man, that thunders forth; "instantly a ray of divine brilliance cleaves the black clouds above his head, and, his noble countenance flashing in that ecstasy of brightness."[86] Crowley stating how this picture of Bennett was the literal truth. That Bennett was one of the very few people that he had met "who really could get ... the results they wished for" in this esoteric field, for it is easy for most to get unwished for results "madness, death, marriage".[86]
 * 13) Bennett was initiated into the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in 1894,[43] taking the Hebrew motto "Iehi Aour", ("let there be light").[44][45][5] Biographer Kaczynski states that Crowley took on the Adeptus Minor Grade motto, "let there be light" in an Enochian angelic language. While he guarded this closely throughout his life, it shows a clear reference to the influence of his teacher and friend.[87]
 * 14) Crowley's Autobiography is dedicated to three "Immortal Memories", including "Allan Bennett, who did what he could"
 * 15) On a sombre note, Kaczynski quotes what Crowley wrote down upon his friends departure, now aware of Bennetts change in path: "O Man of Sorrows: brother unto Grief!"... "In the white shrine of thy white spirit’s reign, Thou man of Sorrows: O, beyond belief!".[102]
 * 16) The notion of remembering backwards that Crowley struggled with for 10years was from Bennett.
 * 17) Crowley noted Bennett was "the noblest and gentlest soul I have ever known", and in spite of his teacher & friend's prior experimentation that "Allan was already at heart a Buddhist". [117][118] Egil Asprem states "Following Bennett’s example Crowley also engaged in a more intimate relation with Buddhism during his visit,[119] and would subsequently consider himself a Buddhist for many years".[120]
 * 18) 1908 quote ..." "How wonderful must then be the inmost shrine of Buddhism, when we find this same Allan Bennett discarding as childish folly the power of healing the sick, or raising the dead, of the attainment of the Philosopger's Stone, the Red Tincture, the Elixir of Life!" ... and going on to encourage all those seeking truth to sort him out ending with "Latin Intra Nobis Regnum: Bhikkhu Ananda Metteyya - Allan Bennett - is the man to help you find it." 100thmonkeypress - yellowrobe article (Crowley News Print)

Aliester Crowley
When was A.C. born? 89.240.173.120 (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Inspired the lead character in the Black Cat movie (1934)
Reciprocal link needed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Cat_(1934_film)#Production — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 18:53, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Ministry most famous album title is linked to chapter 69 of The Book of Lies
Psalm 69: The Way to Succeed and the Way to Suck Eggs - Ministry 1992

The title of the album is linked to chapter 69 of The Book of Lies, a written work of Aleister Crowley, where he uses the expression "The way to succeed and the way to suck eggs" as a pun for the 69 sex position ("suck seed" and "suck eggs"). Moreover, Crowley titled the chapter ΚΕΦΑΛΗΞΘ (which translates literally as "shrugged" and contains the sound ΛΗΞ "licks") but has a second meaning as a compound of Greek κεφαλη ("head") and Ξ Θ (an encoded alphabetic reference to "69") which both have slang meanings in English for sexual acts.

Psalm 69 is considered to be Ministry's most successful album, having been certified gold in Canada and Australia, and platinum in the US. 79.21.134.190 (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2023 (UTC)