Talk:Alejandrina Torres

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 April 2019 and 7 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Pato247.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality a problem with this article
The same problem has arisen in multiple of the articles describing the members of the FALN. 1) The identification of the FALN as a marxist-leninist terrorist organization is generally correct. I think one concession would be to say that for example: the vast majority of the legislators in the United States congress in a resolution opposing clemency for the FALN members, labeled the organization a marxist leninist terrorist organization. 2) The statement that None of the bombings of which they were convicted resulted in deaths or injuries is not true. The counsel to the President Clinto at time of the pardon voiced that none of them had been specifically convicted of a bombing that caused death or injuries, however, the conspiracy charge included the campaign of bombing by the FALN, which included bombings that caused death and injury. This was one of the main reasons for the principled opposition to clemency. 3) They were not convicted of the act of attempting to overthrow the Government of the United States in Puerto Rico by force. That may have been their intent, but you will not find the above sentence in any formal statement by the bench. It is more accurate to say they were convicted of seditious conspiracy, and then use the sentencing statement to describe the long list of acts including lethal bombings which were part of the conspiracy. 4) the section Political Prisoner is a biased set of paragraphs. I am willing to allow for some of the statements as opinions if I can insert a section titled Terrorist and list what others including government and law enforcement thought of Alejandrina. Again, the proportionality argument misses the point that the charge of seditious conspiracy can include actions far less gruesome than 100 bombings and six deaths.

There is a mediation effort a foot to alter the Oscar Lopez Rivera into a semblance of balance and neutrality. This article has been also suggested to be part of the effort. Rococo1700 (talk) 02:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

In reviewing this article I note that it is a near replica of other FALN articles, with failure even to change the name of Matos, who was one of the FALN members tried and convicted on a different date. The author was obviously confused and trying to replicate the story.Rococo1700 (talk) 05:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Alejandrina Torres and Terrorism Banner
I would refer Mercy11 to the mediation that was offered to him regarding Oscar Lopez Rivera, but which he declined to join. There was a discussion that concluded that the label of terrorism was applicable to OLR. Given that OLR and Alejandrina were convicted of the same charge, seditious conspiracy, for belonging to the same organization, the FALN, I would assume the label applies to both. I would refer you to the many citations regarding Alejandrina and other FALN members that refers to them as terrorists.Rococo1700 (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I readded the terrorist category and banner. Again, I can cite you numerous newspaper articles including Chicago tribune, which refer to FALN as a terrorist organization. The US congress resolutions by both the Senate and House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly, including the vast majorities of both parties, to condemn the clemency of FALN terrorists, including Alejandrina. If 100 bombings and six deaths by the FALN organization does not constitute terrorism, then what does?Rococo1700 (talk) 06:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I too can cite numerous newspaper articles (HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE) including Primera Hora HERE as well as Congressmen (HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE) who call them "freedom fighters" and "political prisoners". Rococo has already been told that both "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" are opinions, and thus POV. We don't go around adding banners to WP:BLP biographies of living people based on opinions of ultranationalists crying out their emotional "terrorist" cry. No. We add such banners when a government has declared the person a terrorist, and Rococo have already been told HERE that the United States Government never declared Alejandrina Torres a terrorist. Here, newspapers -whether Rococo's or mine- mean nothing because they are all opinionated. Rococo, please stop your POV. As such the banner is again removed.


 * I would refer Rococo to Rococo's referenced Mediation above that was Rejected by an admin because Rococo had "conduct issues". At least three editors had already been reporting his WP:Disruptive editing. Rococo has yet to learn to behave collegially, to operate in a communal spirit and to abide by WP:Consensus. Rococo had already proposed two DRNs which he also lost HERE and HERE. He then refused to abide by the decision of the DRNs. With such bad-faith history behind him it is no wonder that Rococo failed to convince other editors to join the mediation he proposed. Everyone in Rococo's opposing party refused to participate citing his conduct as a reason. Perhaps Rococo missed that. Those days' old editors' reasons are available HERE (Jmundo), HERE (Sarason) and HERE (Mercy11). Has Rococo read them? They state that the editors were growing exhasperated with (1) Rococo's failure to adhere to consensus and (2) to adhere to the instructions of the DRN volunteer. All of Rococo's referenced behavior issues were standing issues before Rococo submitted his heralded Mediation submission that went nowhere. Now Rococo is attributing validity to a one-sided discussion in a Rejected mediation. How ridiculous. Mercy11 (talk) 16:03, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a quick question: The comment above states that mediation was “… (r)ejected by an admin because Rococo had ‘conduct issues’.”  The reason given on the page by the admin Sunray states, “This is not a dispute that is appropriate to mediation. If there are conduct issues, they should be taken to WP:AN or to arbitration.” (emphasis mine)  As I read it, the comment above does not accurately reflect that actual reason for rejection, or am I missing something? Hammersbach (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Amen to Hammersbach on the mediation question, but again, Mercy11 would like this to be about conduct, about WP rules, etc. Neosilber, Froglich, and, I recall, Hammersbach participated in a mediation that Mercy11, Sarason, and JMundo failed to join. Stop blaming me. This issue was discussed by those editors in that mediation. You declined to join. You had more than a chance to join and argue it with others than myself. But again, you are about anything but the facts. But let's debate his facts:


 * 1) Mercy11 says he can find just as many cites that call the FALN: freedom fighters and political prisoners, etc. But it is curious, that one is a an article about a Mexican singer who decided to sign off on a pamphlet about release of FALN members. Two are American sources, and both mention that FALN is considered by some a terrorist organization. He cites a few congressmen: Pierluisi, Grayson, Serrano, Gutierrez, but I can cite congressional resolutions voted by nearly 90% of all the senators and congressman, in both parties, that called them terrorists. If you want to count your four (oh, one of your newspaper articles cited one of the congressman, so you are counting him twice), then count the congressional resolutions.


 * In another section HERE, Mercy11 claims we add such banners when a government has declare a person a terrorist. All I can tell you is that the US state department was not labelling internal groups in the early 1980s, when the FALN members were arrested. Please read the history on how the decision for such decisions are made:


 * In 1994, Congress officially mandated the Bureau of Counterterrorism in Public Law 103-236 [H.R. 2333]. In 1998, Congress further defined the role of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism in Public Law 105-277 [H.R. 4328]:
 * “There is within the office of the Secretary of State a Coordinator for Counterterrorism...who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.... The principal duty of the coordinator shall be the overall supervision (including policy oversight of resources) of international counterterrorism activities. The Coordinator shall be the principal adviser to the Secretary of State on international counterterrorism matters. The coordinator shall be the principal counterterrorism official within the senior management of the Department of State and shall report directly to the Secretary of State...The Coordinator shall have the rank and status of Ambassador at Large.”


 * In other words, the FALN was not called a terrorist organization by the state department in 1983, because that was not done in 1983, when they were arrested and convicted. However the first US Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) established in April, 1980, would pursue threats from the Armed Forces of National Liberation (FALN). In other words, unlike the Weatherman, the label terrorism was used by the press, the congress, and the US government with regards to FALN. In addition, they were called terrorist repeatedly in the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Sun Times, New York Times, House and Senate resolutions, in the SAGE encyclopedia of Terrorism, which has a chapter on them, in the Roberta Belli monograph.


 * The entry Terrorism in the United States states a common definition of terrorism is the systematic use or threatened use of violence to intimidate a population or government and thereby effect political, religious, or ideological change. That fits FALN, and Alejandrina Torres was convicted of a seditious conspiracy comprised of actions of the FALN, of which she was an active member. The Wikipedia article on the Weatherman states The Weather Underground was referred to in its own time and afterwards as a terrorist group. There was no state department or official government labeling. They have a banner in the talk section from the Wikproject Terrorism. And like the FALN, they were bombing buildings and people, including many of the same targets. I have read some of the discussions on why and why not to label the Weatherman a terrorist group, but it boils down to the fact that the official contemporary groups did not use the label terrorist. That is not a factor here. Contemporary papers called them terrorists then, they were a focus of the Joint Terrorism Task Force in 1980.


 * Mercy11, now that I have met your requirements to add the banner when the government has declared the person a terrorist. What are you going to do now?Rococo1700 (talk) 03:59, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * When you have ONE reliable source that states she was a terrorist, but not a from overzealous ultranationalist detractors as yourself, but a real, valid, reliable source, a federal court indictment as a terrorist, not as a seditious conspiracy but as a terrorist, or her name listed by the US Govt in one of the official terrorist lists, then you can put in the space blank below. Until then, the banner is inappropriate violation of a a Biography of Living People. Period. Mercy11 (talk) 02:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Modified article
I removed some repetitive phrases. I also removed assertions about long sentences of other FALN members. I also have repeatedly and will continue to delete the assertion that they were convicted of a conspiracy to overthrow the government of the united states in Puerto Rico. No court said that. Seditious conspiracy is a charge agains citizens that levy war against their government, the conspiracy crimes consisted of the bombings that the FALN performed.Rococo1700 (talk) 04:22, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Most of paragraph should either have a citation from reliable source or be deleted.
"The attacks occurred in three different prisons . . . ." etc. has no footnote source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AltheaCase (talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 June 2022 (UTC)